Kantar's latest smartphone market report is a mixed bag for Windows Phone

Exactly IMO there is none. The notion a lot of people have as to why WP is better then its competition is because it doesn't come from Google or Apple, which of coarse are evil LOL.  The other thing I keep hearing is that WP is somewhere between iOS and Android in terms of openness and ability to customize, but I don't think people were really asking for that sort of OS.

I know somebody with a WP that has been trying iPhone and Android in the past and is a Happy User of a Lumia 928, he has no more than 5 apps, no social media and no games, he needs only the basic things like email, texting, calls and pictures, he is convinced that WP is the best phone ever... Some times the experience is better than the features or apps, the regular user of a smartphone never use voice commands, most of them doesn't know 80% of the features (NFC? project my screen? vpn? etc. etc.) they don't even know that WP Central exists or Android Central or other forums... But I think people buy smartphones for what they heard and for what they see, they don't want to look dumb and they ask for recomendations, if something is cool they want it but if is expensive and they cannot pay for it then they go for the next best option...  

I agree with the stripping of the photo hub. Its one differentiating feature of WP that I really love. Maybe they will bring it back in a future update?

if you're Mr Nadella, what would you do about this? fire Joe B? Hire somebody else?

Patience is the key!! It won't top the charts in a year or two!!

Well its been 4 years, what are they still waiting for?

Yes it've been 4.  But because WP was late and didn't and dont have many of the apps it will take more time than espected.  I believe "Threshold" will give WD & WP the push they need.

How so? Have you seen Android L? have you seen how it integrates with android auto and android wear and how everybody is tripping themselves to ship devices with all that? Do you think because MSFT ads the start menu back and merges RT and WP, suddenly people will buy windows phones?

The only people excited about Android L is the tech blogsphire, second let's stop pretending that people are buying Android cuz they know is Android.   W9 what do you know about it? The same two, three things we all know that it will bring the start menu back, charms bar, etc.  Well arcording to Mary from zdnet this will be the best WD ever integrating W-RT, W and WP.  Now that MS isn't charging OMEs, making it easier for developers to code for the OS, people will buy WP.  

Yes, none of my friends know what IOS is or WP they just know the name of manufacture (Samsung - apple ...)

1) yes people don't buy android but when they buy, if 90-100% of the handsets are android, what does it matter? The war is at the OEM level, we agree. 2) OEMs even with free WP aren't having luck. Huawei is just one example. I think HTC is testing the waters but I don't see a huge rush to buy a set that has been on android for so long, with more apps and a huge ecosystem. I don't think anybody doesn't buy WP because of hardware since the nokia devices are excellent hardware wise...and they never sold all that much. 3) I'm a developer and have done WP development. It is easy. Making it easier won't make people buy WP. As we stablished people don't buy android, or windows for that matter. They buy a phone. Android was and is in many ways a piece of junk. But the OEMS drove it to heaven heights. This is a war for the OEM and Users. But you have to get the OEMs first and sadly, I think that is too late.

No it's not too late. Why? First, the OEM's are there for the money. Getting Android on a smartphone costs them money in the form of royalties to MS and to Google for apps. On the other hand, WP is free for them to install.
Second, it's taken years for Android to rise to prominence. It followed one very similar path compared to the one WP is taking.
Third, consumers change their phone to the next best thing there is every 18 to 24 months or so. And Android users don't buy apps so there's no real barrier for them to buy a WP instead if the price is right.
Fourth, numerous OEM's are now rallying WP en masse and sooner rather than later, OEM's and carriers' sales forces will have to promote WP the right way instead of discarding it when "advising" potential customers. All in all, there are reasons to remain positive.

What's it going to be this time, Liquorice?

LOLs. Do you know that 80% of people buying smartphone don't have any idea they are buying Android Phone. They are buying phone most of the time because it is a smartphone, a cheap smartphone, with lots of free game and cheap smartphone. Many buy them because it is Samsung, where most of their friends, and their idols are using. Many buy phone because it is LG, or Huawei, or HTC or whatever.

so you're agreeing with the fact we have to get WP in more phones? yeah we get that :)

" I believe "Threshold" will give WD & WP the push they need." That train already left the station. Windows Phone will never gain more than 10% of marketshare EVER. it is all Microsoft fault

Sadly, I agree with this.

I'm curious what other developers think. As a decade veteran .net developer, I never thought I'd give up on a MS platform for lack of marketshare. I'm seriously questioning windows phone and I'm really worried about windows itself (winRT mostly). But I do agree with you and I just can't see anything MSFT can do to fix it other than basically killing windows phone, taking on android and try to unseat google by playing OEMs desire to hedge OS android vendors.

I don't agree with that synopsis. MS have certainly been very late to the game - or ahead of the game actually with Windows Mobile - as Android looks like it these days. But the reboot with WP left out a lot of features and the message with RT was never clear. That's let Google and Apple rise and win the hearts of many people. But that's the way of things, systems get entrenched then there's a leap and someone else takes over. MS didn't innovate fast enough, sat on their past successes and have been easily overtaken. So despite that I reckon they've actually done well to get the sales and support they have; this website wouldn't exist unless they were doing something right! Now they have a plan to merge WP and RT and have a single store for Windows it looks promising for the phone and tablet market. Threshold will hopefully sort things on the desktop as well and stabilise sales there. Lots of new OEMs are embracing WP and Windows tablets, the market will soon be flooded with good cheap options just as people are starting to feel the limits of Android and iPad tablets. MS missed the first couple of waves of smart-devices, but I think they are well positioned for the future. Right now i'd still develop for Android & iOS first, but WP wouldn't be far behind.

and if the flood doesn't come? OEMs are skeptical about windows. I certainly don't see anybody flooding the market with WP. They are just trying out and see what happens and Huawei found out what happens...you lose money. Yes a few more OEMs joined, but the ones that matter, samsung, LG, sony, HTC are still in various stages of "we'll see". OEMs will flood the market if consumers ask for a particular thing. But windows 8 being a worse disaster than vista means nobody is asking for windows tablets relative to the number of people who rather see an ipad with office (which they got) ditto for android. So what are OEMs going to do? produce more of the hated OS? or improve on the things that people love (android). On the one hand, windows 9 could save the tablet market, although it may already be too late for most form factors except the big PC replacement where MSFT does at least have a compeling story. But everything down from 12 is apple/android and MSFT will never catch up in price as they are already too cheap with android and better app stocked. So you're waiting for a flood, but what will cause it? Because certainly windows 8 hasn't, free or not.  

No, OEMs are not sceptical about Windows. Windows Phone maybe, but not Windows. Windows 8 still sells many times that of OSX or ChromeOS. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Sony, Samsung all need Windows / Microsoft. Otherwise they would all just pack up shop and leave the market to Apple. Ask the supply chain if they like dealing with Apple. I can tell you they don't like Apples strong arm tactics.  The only place MS hasnt really caught attention is the consumer market and being "cool", but its a highly respected brand, a company with deep pockets, very good R&D and massive existing infrastructure and patent portfolio. Ive heard charlies predict the death of Microsoft since the late 90s, and it still hasn't happened. MS are no IBM, even if peple try to make that parallel.

Sorry a bit hard to follow your logic a bit as you jump between Windows and Windows Phone, but that could just be me. Windows 8, sure it's been a disaster. WP, much the same really. They both have their followers, but for most people Android or iOS has been a better option. I think with WP 8.1.1 we're starting to see WP adoption take off. HTC just brought out the M8 - that's a clear sign they are getting back into the WP market and a path other OEMs can follow, re-purposing their Android phones (and I imagine tablets when Threshold comes) with Windows. Samsung & LG are both working on WP phones (and future tablets), I expect the phones next week at IFA. I also expect a push for new WP phones in general to try to counter the iPhone 6 announcement that will come the week after - although that will only have limited results it'll at least provide more awareness and people who don't flock to Apple will consider WP against Android more. MS need to move faster with Threshold for sure, there will be growth with WP this year, but no flood until Windows 9.

If threshold brings unified store support across all ms products, and they can drop the redundant "phone" OS and as htc is doing, advertise "with windows" on all devices, we might see the major push in advertising and adoption ms has been betting on. Don't forget guys, all this unified stuff was suppose to launch with windows 8, but MS just couldn't get it all to work right so they have still been playing catchup. Only until this is complete, and all resources can be put into adding new groundbreaking features instead, these numbers are going to stay the same..

I don't see how developer SDK advancements will help. MSFT has the BMW of development suits. Apple swift is a joke compared to VS, LINQ, .NET, EF etc. Devs don't target Win8 and WP not because of the SDK to the tools or universal apps or none of that stuff. They don't target it because nobody uses it relatively speaking. objective C is utter trash and yet it is popular because it sells apps to many users.

Not that i totally disagree with you, but if ms can push things like the universal apps (with Xamarin), they might have a chance. Though they would need to enable Xamarin support on VS Express.

LOL, it was "wait for NoDo!", then "wait for Mango!". Wait wait wait! What you waiting for? WP will be a great 3rd choice. Just deal with it and be happy with that fact.

I agree 100%!

Really it's only been two since Windows Phone 8, which wasn't compatible with WP7. 

But that doesn't matter; the only people who see that distinction are the people who already have - or are otherwise invested in - WP.  From the marketplace's standpoint, it's been 4 years and WP 8 was no different than iOS 5 or Android Jellibean... it's just another OS upgrade.

correct. I don't think anybody is looking at 8.1 and saying "now I'll get a windows phone". In fact when my android co-workers saw WP they thought it looked cool because I had set a weird background of cortana but otherwise they had no idea or cared I was running a dev preview or that WP was not able to do this before.

Elop must go

He ruined Nokia

why would you fire Elop? Joe B and Terry are the people directly responsible for windows phone current state? If anything can you imagine if Elop had gone android two years ago? would there even be windows phone? I'd give the guy a medal.

I would have preferred Nokia to still exist than Windows Phone.

Yup I agree. It's because of Elop's / Nokia's drive that WP still exists today.

Yes, Elop is a bad executive.

You can't blame Elop entirely.  The WP8.1 with its features arrived a year late.  Even now the Lumia 920, the previous flagship at AT&T, has not received Cyan update yet.  The 2nd Quarter was basically a non-event quarter for MS/Nokia WP phones.  The Motor E/G and cheap Chinese Android phones started to grab away from Nokia's low end phone share.  If the September smartphone market share won't show any improvement for WP, I'll start to worry.  The 530/630/730/830/930 should help, but we just don't know how much. I do fault Elop for the his carrier exclusivity deal with AT&T in US and the missed opportunity in China.  MS/Nokia should re-shape its strategy and product lineups: 1.  Drop the carrier exclusivity for good. 2.  Stop making the 512MB phones.  All low end phones will have 1GB RAM and with a front camera. 3.  Emphasize the photography capabilities.  Provide 20MP camera for all mid-range phones and 41MP for high-end phones.   All mid and highend phones come with 5MP front camera, microSD and built-in Qi. 4.  Opening up at least half of the Nokia collection to all Windows phones. 5.  Bundling up the WP phones with the Windows tablet or PC sales.  Cortana will be the threading glue. 6.  Aggresively pushing the enterprise sales.  Learn from the Nokia UK. 7.  Doubling up the Universal app development effort. 8.  Riding with Windows 9 massive upgrading wave and the Cortana awareness to put WP9 in the front and center of the smartphone arena.  This is the last chance to put WP on the map. 9.  Continue to push and help all major phone venders to come out a Windows version for their highend Android phones like the HTC One M8 for Windows.  

Fire bonnie Ross from 343. She took a giant DLC doo doo on halo and is preparing to piss on its grave. She must be stopped

how does this help WP?

MS has long term vision. They don't need to make rash decisions based on the latest report. WP is making progress.

Do you think this report is any different than the last 10 that tells us similar conclusions and all the app developers who don't give WP a chance because of low numbers, and even Huawei giving up on WP? When do you freak out exactly before it is too late?

 Huawei news wasn't that important, is like if Samsung decided the same; stop making WP.  When was the last time any of them actually care or released a WP?  So I took that news as if another polititian lost its sit.

But you made my point? Samsung who literally has a say on what is popular having shipped more LTE devices than apple for the first time, doesn't give a rat about windows phone. Just how bad does it have to get that even the mediocre Huawei can't bother to try anymore? It's like when not even the nerdy girls will date you (no offense to nerds out there as I'm one).

It is only logical for the last quarter to been mediocre for windows phone. Basically no new devices were released and when they were they were exclusive to a single carrier. Microsoft was still finishing the transition of buying Nokia and 8.1 was still not released. What do you expect? With all the new OEMs releasing WP and 8.1 on all handsets I'm sure next quarter will be much better.

What do I expect? Let's throw away the last quarter. Do you think WP stands a chance or that it has done well? Are you saying WP had a hit but the last quarter screwed it? What do you make of the past 3 years?

But Samsung never really gave a crap about WP from the beginning. If you remember, When Samsung released its first WP they did little to promote it, their Market share was pretty good for a Windows phone compared to other manufacturers at the time and then they just let it slip... Even with that...I dont believe it made a huge dent in WP's Market Share....It doesnt really matter how many devices Samsung makes...if they dont put marketing dollars into their products...they of course wont sell...LOOK at the HUGE budget they have for their Android Phones...If they took One of the Marketing Quarters and used that budget for Windows Phone...it would be a bonafide hit....Huawei....is using the opportunity to get media attention by stating they are going to make any windows phone...No one believed that they were going to make one in the first place much less that because WP is doing so poorly its going to affect their bottom line...My feeling is that they just wanted to get some media attention...and that MS should ask them Politely to go away..we dont need you to create a WP phone. Its not like their other phones are selling so well.....and even if they are in China...No one else knows or cares about Huawei.

fair enough, how do you get samsung to give a crap?

Give them a platform that allows them to differentiate from other users of the OS.   This is why Android is popular in OEM world.  OEMs want to be different from one another and frankly Android is the only one that offers them the historical level of customization and differentiation. Making the deal with Nokia as their Tier 1 OEM was a huge mistake.  What did nokia get out of the deal?  Well a boat load of cash, a new accent colour palette and the ability to add native code before any other OEM.   This is what hurt Microsoft's reputation in Samsung's eyes.  WP was built from a consumer oriented approach, rather than an OEM oriented approach.  Those of us who rock WP as our daily drivers do so because it meets the needs of us as a consumer.  Good luck finding an OEM who will want to make a WP device if they can't add their own UI layer like Sense or Touchwiz or whatever. There used to be a day when everyone made their own OS. Now that OEMs must rely on another OS provider to compete with the App Store, Android dominates.   There is some great insight over at http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/ If you've never heard of the guy who wites that blog, he's pretty much the authority on mobile.  He says WP is in a death spiral and is on its way out.  I'd like to disagree with him, but as long as WP is mismanaged by Microsoft, there is no chance. 

better yet, windows itself lets anybody customize it via APIs that don't require source. If stardock can make a start menu and make windows look like OSX? why can't MSFT put the same APIs in windows phone and allow anybody to customize the launcher to do whatever they want? sort of like how windows has always worked.

Is their lost, why? just as Samsung with Android.  Nobody embraced and push Android as Samsung did, no even HTC and their bet payed off.  So those that are embracing WP will see fruits in the near fuure.  Does WP have a hard time ahead yes it does but MS hasn't quit and it wont cause they know mobile is where the $ is and will be.

Right.

MSFT really only need 10-15% worldwide to really successful. No need to dethrone anyone just be a good third option.

the problem is they are NOT a good option. iOS and Android are equally good in the eyes of consumers and app catalogs, but windows phone is so distant it isn't even in the same category. And at roughly 1% marketshare per year gains, and slowing...at that rate WP will not reach 10% this decade...just how much are developers going to put up with a platform that costs more than it is worth?

Actually if you look at the figuers between IOS and WP there really for the most part not a huge gap between them and that gap is closing very fast. Did you notice the 14% marketshare loss by apple in the USA in just one quarter???

Invest more in dev and marketing.

Especially in development! The Catch-Up thing has to stop!

Yeah, I agree. But really, wp is about neck and neck with android and IOS, its just that people perceive it is still behind, (like it was in the past). That mentality has stuck with people ever since wp got off to a slow start. And they still have the same psychological factor today. Loads of people have said to me that WP looks nice but is way behind. I said 'how?' And they said 'you cant do this and you cant do that ' and I proved them wrong easily. One guy said 'lack of facebook integration,' I showed him the peoples hub, another said 'not really consistent ' I shows him how my accent colour is nearly everywhere, how the animations aren't wholly different to each other, how the icons at the bottom of the screen look the same even throughout apps, how even apps can follow the accent colour, how the theme of tiles and squares is prevalent throughout the os, how swiping left and right from a lot of screens reveals more info, or another category, eg, email, settings, messaging, people hub, and even third party apps like whatsapp and viber, telegram, most of the youtube apps, etc. I told him how... (I could go on forever)
He went back on his word.
A lot of people also think of wp8 when someone says 'wp'. Little do they know that wp8.1 addresses most of their complaints about the os
Its really sad

Yep, true. And that's why we need innovative features other OSes don't have and we can boast with :) Maybe Threshold will do something about it, especially when it comes to making a seamless experience with W8

+1. AND we need a flagship device. Quality low-tier and midrange phones boost sales but not brand perception. Lumia 1520 is one year old, Lumia 930 has no distinctive features, no glance screen and no SD card slot. Both are great devices but no flagships. Where is our McLaren or our Lumia 1030?

Lumia 930 has no distinctive features,

Quad-mic recording is not a distinctive feature?  Do all Android handsets feature quad-mic recording?

Well... no: the Lumia 1520 had it before the Icon/930. :)
In any case, there was an Android reference device from Qualcomm with quad-mics back in 2011. Whether it made it to any actual devices, I don't know.
Anyway, as far as the general public is concerned, I fear that the orange and green colours distinguish the 930 over Android devices much more than quad-mics. It may be sad but that's reality.

I agree. Windows phone is a lot like OSX, it can do most of what windows does but the perception is that it can't (and so is the reality) because of lack of apps. Just yesterday I was looking at the E*trade app for windows phone. And I saw this https://us.etrade.com/investing-trading/mobile-trading#chart THIS is what they mean when they tell you what they told you. and oh yeah, thank E*trade they even bothered because I couldn't find an app for any of the other big brokers.

It's not about the money they spend on marketing, it's about the way they are actually targeting folks. They need to have smart people who are familiar with the specific situations that exist in their country. The landscape here is different from the one in France, Spain, US, China, India etc.

What did Joe do or not do that he deserves to be fired? He's a public face, but he has nothing to do with marketing and he has little to do with strategy. If you can't point at a specific and grave mistake, calling for people to be fired is a crummy thing to do. You can also change strategy without having to fire people.

He's in charge of Windows Phone. He's responsible for everything. He had his chance and failed. WP is stagnant or declining. It's time for him to be fired.

You are like those GMs that fired the lowest manager when things go wrong but praise themselve when things are going smoothly.  Chill out dude.

he's not the lowest manager. Terry and Joe were basically #1 and #2 in the windows phone team during its key years. This is when they f'ed up big time strategy wise because all their decisions are being felt now in low marketshare. Basically what they are doing now is reversing course. Basically admitting they were wrong. If you're their boss, what do you do: 1) give them another chance having failed already 2) give somebody else the chance to prove themselves. this is how the corporate world works. #2 is what should happen.

Under Steve yes he was, every decision bad or good had to be approve by Balmer.  He was stock in the 90s thinking MS had the same power it once enjoyed.  Does Belfiore has some resposabilities?  Yes he did.  But as reported all over Ballmer was a bully and nobody has say above him.  Let's remember he wasn't love at MS.  Now that Mr. Nadella is driving the car things are different, because he was under the same bully he understand why Belifiore.  I am not giving him a free pass, now that he has more control and an CEO willing to listen to him, he has to produce or then get fire.

Belfiore is not the "lowest manager". He heads Windows Phone and he's done a subpar job. Name something he did well in the past year. For every item you list I can list three things he screwed up. Windows Phone is 4 years old and it's stagnant. Belfiore is incompetent. He needs to go.

Joe belfiore and Terry were the two key executives behind windows phone. As such they are directly responsbile. That's the way the corporate world works because the developers do as the higher ups do. And I can absolutely point many mistakes: 1) charging for the OS 2) making hardware demands on OEMs which made it impossible to re-purpose android set investments (camera button, capacitive keys) 3) swapping the kernel out half way and leaving many users in the dust 4) focusing on stupid crap like kids corner instead of focusing on business features like VPN. the list goes on. But ultimately the biggest failure is in plain sight? globally windows phone has not reached more than 1% marketshare per year. And you know who is to blame? not the development team. They are just following orders. It's the VPs, and Terry and Joe are it. They are not just "marketing/public face".

Agree.

Firing Joe Belfiore isn't the answer. Joe is responsible for the look, feel and features for the platform, and he's done a great job at that. Windows Phone's problem is mostly in how it's presented to the public and the negative stigma on MS from 20 years ago.

but don't people hate metro? I mean let's face it, they kind of do: windows phone and windows 8 have ben absolute disasters for MSFT. As such can we not say the guy who thought something as weird looking as windows phone had a chance isn't responsible for the reception it had? I'm not saying it is all Joe's fault, but I seeing the results, one wonders if somebody else had done better.

The Metro/Modern UI is great for touch devices. Many of the Android and Iphone toting folks I work with think my 2 year old 920 is really cool. I have even converted a couple to WP. I thing the biggest issue with WP, imho, is the perception of WP. IPhone became cool because it was first, but also because it was radically different from anything else. WP should be promoting the phone not because of how we are the same, but because of how we are different and why that is the better way to go. The trick is to get folks to perceive the WP as the new "gotta have one" thing to have.

THIS!!!

What are you talking about. People doesn't hate Metro, neither on WP, nor on Windows. The problem was, Microsoft forced some people to boot into Metro. We guys in the forums are not representative for all the users out there. For me, for example, a startscreen with life tiles is a lot cleaner than a messy desktop with small icons with no funcionality except for starting a program. If Microsoft let's the user opt for the default workspace ( Desktop / Modern UI ) then everybody will be happy. I understand, that an administrator or a developer has other needs than a regular user. If we get the option to lock the UI we want. A part of the problems are solved.  Options:  Auto, Desktop, Modern UI 

but isn't that the problem? It's not that they forced you to see a Metro screen. It was the fact it was so freaking aweful and useless for most people that they hated it. MSFT introduced the start menu in windows 95. It was "forced" on users but that was better than the "managers" approach of windows 3.1. The huge wasteful UI, the solid colors that gave you no choices, the lack of folders, the lack of windowing, the impossible ways to use it with mouse on keyboard because of all the hidden UI gesture crap. THAT was the problem. So maybe metro IS the problem, not the choice of trying to make people use it. I really can't blame MSFT. google and apple would and do the same: you use your success to make new things successful. The problem was the idea of replacing someting with something worse, not the replacement...

Yes, indeed Microsoft made a mistake to force people using the Metro UI on the Desktop Computer. All things that are forced are a pain in the a.. . But again, I don't think that Metro is a aweful thing. Sure, depends on the taste of each individual. I want to say, I accept that you hate it or find it aweful, but this applies not for everyone. The usability is debatable, yes. It needs improvements but yeah, at least Microsoft tried to do something different. In my opinion Mac OS X is so boring and unimaginative. I think combining new usability concepts could bring a new user experience. Gestures via kinect for example (instead of the touch screen). it takes a lot of stamina to use a touch screen on the desktop , but this doesn't mean, that it could not make sense.  

I would've fired Joe Belfiore a year ago. He had his chance and completely failed. Time to get some fresh blood in there to shake things up--someone who will bring Xbox gaming back, advertise the hell out of it, get Windows Phones on every carrier, get them on store shelves at Best Buy and other retailers, including shopping mall kiosks, and so forth. He has failed Windows Phone, badly.

I am from germany. If we would fire each person which have done a few mistakes, we would not be where germany is. Your idea is the typical american way of thinking, and this is sometimes working, but in my opinion mostly not. Try to think a bit more long-term...

Exactly my thoughts. I hate went people get on rants like this on here. Very annoying.

well, this is not just america. executives in general get all the credit when they win, and all the blame when they fail. Some companies are more lenient than others but I can't agree to the thinking it is limited to american capitalism. Also remember, Terry and Joe have been given 3 years. At what point as the CEO and with a duty to shareholders do you have to do your job and put people who will turn things around. Remember the CEO works for the shareholders, this is so in europe, japan, US, doesn't matter. If your VPs after 3 years of failure are still failing, maybe you should consider new leadership, or quit as CEO...

First of all, why do you assume I'm American? Regardless, you critique my suggestion to remove an incompetent manager as the typical American way of thinking? The three biggest players in the smart phone industry are American companies: Google, Apple, and Microsoft. So, the "American way of thinking" must be doing something right in this arena. I am thinking long-term. That's why Belfiore needs to go. He's had plenty of time to grow Windows Phone. Instead, he's had failures all over the place: Microsoft apps are better on iOS and Android, Xbox Music became worse, Xbox Video became worse, the Games hub became worse, Xbox gaming on WP--the one advantage WP had over gaming (the largest app market in the industry) over iOS and Android--is basically dead, WP adoption rates are stagnant or declining in the most important markets, few carriers even sell Windows Phones in most markets, and even fewer stores carry them, the pace of updates and rollouts has been too slow, as has the pace of launching new phones, and their availabiltiy on carriers has been too limited. Belfiore has hurt Windows Phone more than he has helped it.

> Apps better on iOS and Android
> Xbox Music worse I doubt this has anything to do with him. The Office team would have made the Office apps for iOS/Android, the XBox team would have made the XBox apps. I assume the Windows Phone team is tasked with making Windows Phone. I also assume Cortana is built by the Bing team? IE by the IE team? So I would blame the person overseeing all of it, who should be telling the Office and Xbox teams to prioritise apps for Windows Phone. So if Ballmer/Nadella walked into the Office team meeting and told them "no more iOS updates, focus one making WP apps" that would help. For what it's worth I think you had a chance of Ballmer doing that, I think Nadella is happy to follow the market and focus on the "cloud" offerings, e.g. get Office 365 onto iOS and make the money that way.

Belfiore directly oversees the Xbox apps. He has publicly said so on Twitter.

You are absolutely right. MS has failed to leverage its strengths in gaming and enterprise to form a cohesive and compelling product. Such strong brands like Xbox. Skype and office... Wasted

Here would be my suggestions: 1. Remove hardware as many hardware requirements as possible so that as many phones as possible (highend HTC One, to $50 phones) can run WP. 2. Make the OS free for all small devices. 3. Merge RT and WP 4. Make it super easy to build Windows and WP apps at the same time 5. Unify the app stores 6. Invest heavily in Cortana and make her available everywhere (phone, pc, tablet, xbox) just a few ideas, and theyre doing them now, so leys see.

Fire Joe B? Joe is not in charge of marketing is he? J.B,. is the CVP of OS groups. What's not working for them is marketing. WP 8.1 is sooooo much better than IOS and lets not even discuss Lagdroid. The issue that Android was built from the ground up by developers, they turned a geek phone into a powerhouse. IOS was ingenious in as much as nothing like it existed. WP8 is a better experience, but a promise of a better experience alone is not enough to get people to jump. People have invested in their eco systems; how do you defend having to lose/spend all that money again? Its a tough sell and marketing is doing a horrible job at selling it.

I believe Terry has always been the VP of windows phone, and now windows and windows phone while Joe was basically responsible to Terry for most key decisions. I'm not saying Terry shouldn't be fired too :) WP low marketshare was under his watch and arguably the flunks in mobile which outted Ballmer also apply to all the VPs under Terry (Joe and others). Interesting marketing angle but as you say, it is a tough sell unless Terry/Joe had done different at the start leading to a better outcome today. At what point do admit that selling a turd is hard no matter how much you polish it. Maybe the answer is, get people who can turn the turd into a jewel...or something? MSFT is a huge company. Are there not hungry execs who want a chance at winning where Joe and Terry failed? surely somebody can throw names out that may have done better...

I don't think that I will fire JB for this. I think, WE ALL NEED to market the Windows Phone, boast ALL of its features to all fanboys out there, and be radical. Have you all told your friends about your Windows Phone (esp. 8.1)? So far, I have seen some of my friends have been converting to Windows Phone right after I told them about its features, fast and fluid UI, and more. So the key of gaining the marketshare is on ourselves, how we tell the greatness of Windows Phone OVER all mobile OSes like iPhone and Android.

Exactly one key feature to blow off peoples socks and marketing, marketing, marketing.

I think my entire household is on WP. I turned serveral workers. But it bothers me to no end when they asked me why their bank doesn't have an app for WP. You know I feel kind of guilty.

There is no guilty, bro. I did have some challenges when I had been trying to convince some of my friends to switch to WP. Some of my friends had switched to WP, and since then, they asked me about the apps that were 'missing'. I told them to wait for its time, and guess what, more apps coming to the store, including Path, Instagram, and even BBM (in my country, Indonesia, BBM is still the #1 messaging app). If there are missing apps, tell the developer. When they refuse, contact MSFT to give 'em money and training for them to develop the app for WP. That's what the developer caring.

Same here. I've been told by my banking institution that there is zero demand for their app on my platform.  

Tell to Microsoft, tell them by forwarding your conversations to their representatives like in Microsoft Answers, UserVoice, or by email. That will be the way to urge them to make apps for Windows Phone...

apps apps appps, if the app is not availbale just use the dam webpage, works fine for me, its not rocket science.

that's the last resort if you can't tell Microsoft to train those on his banking institution. Just be a proactive users, dude.

Marketing should be more aggressive... Look at how Samsung did with there adds, it's everywhere...

Yes, ads are important, but the VIRAL MARKETING is waay more important than doing the advertisement. Did you know that the advertisements can be deceptive? That's where viral marketing does. Starts from who? From ourselves.

If I could fire someone, would be Stephen Elop

Yes, I would fire Joe Belifore immediatly. Windows Phone needs someone at the top who wants to eat the world. Most of the people at MSFT are just doing the minimum to get paid. No hunger showing to the push the OS further trying to get closer to the top 2 leaders. For example, here in Mexico, our latest firmware authorized by our carrier Telcel is the Amber update. Nokia's website shows that the Black update is "available" and the Cyan is on testing by the carrier. But the carrier doesn't care about giving their customers at least the Black update after several months after its rollout....... All the OS improvements are being HELD by the carrier and MSFT and Nokia are doing NOTHING for the final user. I'm seriously thinking to change back to iOS.......... don't want to but if the hardware and software maker don't care.... WHO CARES???? 

Lets compare android update support with windows phone. No one can touch IOS.

Hire a marketing person with a clue, and hire a better telecoms relationship manager. Then you know - start advertising the crap out of the phones, while doing the utmost to get the phone companies to actually push the phones in their stores. Or MS could just keep sitting on their hands hoping organic growth continues.

China is moving like on a completely non microsoft base :/

Well they can't pirate the software for phones now since its free. So there probably like eh no fun no more lol.

Hahaha. You deserve a medal for that one ;) Made my day.

^^^^^ give this man a medal... funny one :D

That is why Satya is going to China next month!! ;-)

Today I saw iPhone 6 in a person's hand. It was china made duplicate of iphone6. It 90% looked the same how iPhone 6 gonna be. It was thinner lighter had big screen like 625 4.7 inch. B4 the official launch of iPhone 6 china started making and trading fake models. Really disappointed with china

Made in china XD

Yeha made in china .china started trading with their shitty products.

... and that clone is going to be sold for about $140~150... Chinese crap. There are already some hands-on videos from some tech pages in my country...
~Sent from a country neighboring China, and overrun with "Made in China" craps~

You know what, when I was in China last time, all those fake iPhones were running Android. Next time I'm going to ask for a fake iPhone running Windows Phone.

China is going to destory this world one day. Between their HORRENDOUS ethics and morals model and the fact they don't really care about this planet or its inhabitants..... I fear for our children every day. Plastic in the milk, formaldehyde in lettuce and other vegetables, tainted beef and horse meat sold as beef. And this in no way excuses the American companies that dela with this as well!

Can you please post a pic of what the iPhone 6 is supposed to look like? Was there a confirmed leak? I saw some stuff, but no one has any proof, unless I missed it.

there will be 2 versions: 6 inch: 4 inch:

China's going to only use China-made products in the future. Even Android doesn't have the Play Store, so it's basically useless for Google. They're basically developing an operating system they can't make any money off of, though MS is getting paid for every license sold. 

 though MS is getting paid for every license sold. 

Which explains the HTC ONE M8 for Windows.  Keeps the patent protection licensing for Android lower when you have a Windows Phone on the market too. 

China is moving on a Non everything base now.

Hope that new handsets will increase market share

will it? we said the same thing about mango. we said the same thing about apollo. we said the same thing about nokia. we said the same thing about 8.1. At what point we have to say: this isn't working let's change our strategy. Seems to me unless MSFT embraces android apps and/or opens up the OS for OEM customization, windows phone is basically running out of time to prove itself. We're already seeing a huge amount of abandoned apps that were once big name apps. I think momentum has all but died and new hardware isn't really going to fix that. Android will always have more hardware. sadly, WP may be broken beyond repair.

If you understand this, why did you buy Windows phone?I am satisfied with the OS(not with market share). For consumers market share is not necessary

I'm not looking at this as a consumer exclusively, I'm looking at this as a developer of MSFT technologies.

Well said ;)

Patience dude :-) I really wonder about the market share in India though. I am based in Chennai, India. Here I am actually seeing more windows phones every day. Last year, it was pretty rare to see one. Also, price point of low cost Windows Phones are now at par with quality low cost androids. most of the banking apps(Hmmm... Citibank!!! Where are you!!!???) are now available for Windows phone as well. Tide is turning albeit slowly.

In my country(I live in Azerbaijan) the situation is the same.i can see more Windows phone devices, than last year. Some my friends(and also my neighbors) bought WP 8 and loved it

I see quite a few Windows Phones in Israel!

Stop bombing Gaza and Windows phone shares will rise :)

Ironic since your handle is Killer. Tell Hamas and the other fundamental militant groups to stop firing rockets indiscriminately at us in Israel and we'll stop.
I'm in the IDF and just came back from Gaza. If the firing starts again, I'm all for the Israeli Air Force carpet bombing the entirety of the strip. Just like any other country would do.
Rant over.

See brother I am not into all this political stuff. What I can see is more than 3 thousands men/women/kids died in Gaza since this conflict started, surely all those were not militants. A change in strategies might be better.

Broheme, they fire from schools, mosques, hospitals. Our neighbors don't get it. We are too strong. Any war waged against us never works. Focus on your boys in Syria and Iraq. When you acknowledge the bias then we can talk. When Muslims kills Muslims no one says anything. When it involves the one democratic Jewish state all the haters come out to play. Give me a break.

As KillerXorg says, stop bombing Gaza. Instead of firing rockets, buy and fire out windows phone :)

"just like any other country would do". Well from last 2 weeks Pakistan had been shelling our(Indian) bordering areas in which 2 civilians died and many more affected. Still I can't see our army planning something like what Israel is doing

Yes, be equitable. Look at what Bashar Assad is doing? Look at the 20,000 militants now in Syria killing innocents. Look at the Islamic State, look at Al Shabab. Open your eyes and be fair. We have gave them Gaza. We removed every single Jew. There was no blockade in 2005. We gave them 3,000 greenhouses and infrastructure. They destroyed it all. Currently, we provide water, electricty, and fuel and they fire at us! Get a grip and stop this blind support.

By the way, the phone you're using 100% has Israeli tech. You're welcome.

Ah! I think its not, and if does it's still doesn't bother me.

It certainly does. They don't call us Start Up Nation for nothing! Google, Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Motorola, Cisco, HP, Alcatel Lucent, GE, Philips, Broadcom, Siemens, Ebay, Sandisk, VMware, Micron, and Coviden all have R&D here. Israel is known as Silicon Wadi. Our technology contributes more to the world than any of our neighbors combined in the last 70 years. It's cocky of me to say, but I feel it's warranted. Good day to you, sir.

You arrogant racist Jewish supremacists are all the same.... Disgusting savages.... Not worth being called human beings. You take pride in your perceived successes but deprive others of their lives.

Woah, the hate. Tone that down bud. Spread the love.

This is certainly not the appropriate platform to debate on such topic go somewhere else.

So shut up.

That's what I meant. Shut up!

+920

+925

+1520 =p

+3310 :D

Boycott products from israel ;)

Looks like you're not gonna be using a mobile device of any sort, dog. It's all good guys. Gang up on the Jew. We're used to it.

Yeah Hitler was right.

I love the anti-semitism from you guys for everyone to see. Fantastic stuff.

"You Guys" ???

Let's put an end to this topic with immediate affect....

It's over. But shame on you for your anti-semetic comments. Completely disgusting.

aehhaeh, my friends Mohsen said: "I wanna come to israel tomorrow n i wanna take Netanyahu's rockets in his mother anus n if u wanna criticize, call me ok? But be wise, cause then i will change ur mother anus size... Ok???". Contact Him: urmotheranusissoft@live.com

South Indians are Microsoft lovers. ❤

So does Biharis ;-)

While opening the OS to Android apps may or may not help WP.  I can assure you that no one is clamoring for OEM customization of the OS.  I have yet to see a review of an android phone that says the OEM customization is a good reason to buy the phone.  Most reviews complain about those customizations.  I can't say what the issues are in other countries but in the US I think carrier exclusives are a major issue.  Lots of people are contemplating leaving WP because Verizon has exclusive rights to the 930/Icon and now to the One W8.  I know it is a concern for me. Currently in the US you can't get a decent windows phone on either Sprint or US Cellular.  The phones they have are 2 years old and weren't even very good then.  That's about 20% of the market that is doesn't even have the option to buy a new windows phone.  It's pretty tough to grow market share when you are cut out of 20% of the market and only offer flagship phones to 30% of the market. Personally, I want them to focus on imaging at all levels.  I want more phones like the 1020.  If the 830 comes out with a 20mp camera, decent price, and wide availability (including sprint) I think it could sell.  Even cheap phones should come with better imaging than they do now.   While I understand why they got rid of the dedicated camera button requirements (to allow phones like the One an easy way to put WP on) I hope they don't do away with it on Lumia phones.  That is a selling point for me (and even more for my wife).  I use the half-shutter pre-focus quite a bit and would really miss it. Overall, there's lots of reasons WP is failing in the US but I think carrier exclusivity is a major one.

Opening up the OS for OEM customization? I personally dislike that, but it may help change the average users' look at Windows Phone. But embracing Android apps? Just please don't. Whatever but Android app. Make WP runs Android apps and the OS will become a junkyard, just like Android.

I think WP needs more customization. Look at the variety of apps on an Android Play Store, not the number of apps. They have more categories for apps than we do. Introduce launchers to Windows Phone. Introduce different keyboards, music players WITH EQUALIZERS, theme support, etc. Let the users customize the OS for themselves but keeping the basic appeal intact, introduce something like rooting (don't kill me for saying this), introduce something like Xposed Modules. There are too many things that can still be done. Figure out the differences between Android and WP, make the OS more lenient (yes, you HAVE TO shed the restrictions like iOS). These things do matter to power Android users to be able to make the switch. They think WP cannot be played with. At least provide them with an option without making it mandatory. Posted via Windows Phone Central App

I like your idea, basically let us do what has been possible on windows which seems to be what android is taking inspiration. Are we shocked android is winning by being flexible and robust while WP is declining by being paranoid and restrictive? what are we affriad to lose? 3% marketshare lol.

but listen, at least you can get the stupid app while WP gets popular (if ever). What are you going to do otherwise? stare at the tiles wising the app you want gets there? How do you tell users: buy the same phone with less apps. At least if you can say: it is better, AND has all your apps in addition to 300K WP native apps, the story starts to change. Today I wanted to trade some stocks but my broker doesn't have an app. Yesterday I wanted to deposit a check but my bank doesn't have an app. The other day I wanted to get some deals from a store using their app but there was no WP app. If I could just run the android app, no matter how much I wish it was windows native, at least my phone wouldn't act more like a smart phone, and less like a phone.

This pessimism is less warranted now than it was a year ago, and the numbers here are actually somewhat encouraging. There has been overall growth in Europe and small growth in the US, even during a period when there have been virtually no new devices, and a sharp decline in marketing (Nokia was in maintenance mode while the closing of the sale of its handset division was pending). New devices and from new OEMs are only just coming on the market now, and I think we can certainly expect the HTC One to go international very shortly. If we see the same thing come January 2015, however, I will join in your pessimism. It is particularly hard to judge WP from this last quarter, given the very recent upheaval with the Nokia sale and new "free" WP OS.

so you're saying new devices. This is what will happen: 1) new devices launch. 2) android gets newer devices 3) android gets newer devices 4) android gets newer devices 5) android gets newer devices ... 100) wp lags again.

No. What I'm saying is, that if you expect WP to magically overtake Android in a year or two (or even 5) you are being hopelessly naive. However, the latest numbers don't tell me that WP is finished. In fact, I think it is not unrealistic to expect that WP may overtake iPhone in total number of users in a couple of years. Even if it didn't, if the WP user base actually came close to that of iPhone (an even more realistic expectation) it would be a sustainable platform, with a robust ecosystem and plenty of developer interest. If the sales numbers deterioate further over the next 6 months, however, I'll be with you in thinking it's dead. The current drop is either a dip in the previous growth pattern (and there was a healthy growth pattern throughout 2013), or a permanent decline. Only the next 6 months will tell for sure.

So then switch platforms. You won't have to come complain every day. 

Maybe MSFT should switch platforms? Embrace android and extend it like amazon?

and how are they doing now

The train already left the station and it is ALL MICROSOFT FAULT.

Good and bad

Microsoft seems to be quiet this year.. Makes me wonder what earth shattering thing they are actually prepping.  

McLaren!!

Canceled

I love your optimism. It made me smile. But the reality is that MSFT isn't quiet. It is late, as always. I was just going over some news and notice iwatch next month, android gear taking over, android auto displacing iOS in cars...and I kept wondering...wow remember when MSFT as a company that was in every conversation? now all we hear is: MSFT enters all the above markets 2 years late.

Actually it's been a really busy year so far. (not even including enterprise stuff) Windows Phone 8.1 Update  Surface Pro 3   Office365 (iPad, Personal, 1TB storage)  Microsoft Stores  Cortana   Universal Apps   The Windows Store (Best Buy)  Lumia budget  (530, 630, 1320)  Lumia flagships (930, 1520)  Bing with Windows 8.1 budget devices (Toshiba Encore 2, Archos)  $399 Xbox One   Nokia transition  HTC M8  Budget laptop devices (Chromebook competitors)  EA Subscription service for Xbox One  Xbox Bundles (COD, Sunset, Madden)  Cricket support (1320, 520)  OneDrive increased space

What was that article which was published about a month ago in WPC? "Something major is coming to Windows Phone!" What was that all about?

yeah right? I recall something similar. I was hoping for a full UI refresh. the kind that makes me say bye bye monochromatic OS pages.

the UI will be the "metro" modern version 2 that is being released with threshold.

well you know its that thing they are calling Threshold and gemini. those are 2 pretty big and major software updates.

Thanks!

Thankfully, MS execs take these reports with a grain of silica. It's nice to see where you're at, but don't get heartburn or lose any sleep over the media's interpretation of what the numbers mean.

It's like Bell Labs propaganda on why their POTS lines are the best option for consumers. Rubbish

hmm explains why MS is basically flunking in mobile. you got it.

....Microsoft took over the mobile device operation from Nokia a couple of weeks ago. So what do you expect? Miracles?

I think only a Miracle can save them yes. I think how android basically took mobile away from apple was a miracle. I think how MSFT took the OS game from IBM was a miracle. Miracles don't happen often but yeah, MSFT needs one IMO.

Nokia just makes devices, they don't have control over the OS or apps.As good as the OS has become and hardware is like that new HTC phone, they clearly have an image problem, most people ultimately only care about one thing when switching platforms, will I be able to use the apps I had before and that where WP falters. If you look at the top chart from the Google Play and the App Store you'll see they share a lot of the same apps yet a large quantity of said apps are not available on WP. At this point I think that MS should just swallow their pride and implement an Android VM that will allow Android code to run on WP, and invite developers to post their apps as is in the WP store. Reduce their cut slightly if the developer agrees to instead to redo to app using WP specific code. Allowing Android code to run unchanged would allow the platform to go a long way towards reaching parity with Android because as it stands now the ecosystem is terribly unbalanced: you have a pretty good OS, great hardware but the app situation is pretty awful with all the fake and shady stuff popping up whenever you try to do a search for a specific app.

think that MS should just swallow their pride

I think that's a good start. And yes to everythign else you say. I'd argue do the same for windows 8. 

I would rather suggest MS leverage their strengths in other areas like Xbox and office to produce a compelling product that everyone wants. If so the userbase will increase and the apps will come.

MS is making a lot of changes internally and are aware of the position they're in. Next month people will be complaining about how mobile devs will have to rewrite they're apps AGAIN. There will always be something to complain about. I enjoy my WP and am excited to see what MS will do with it next.

Do these numbers include tablets? If they do, surface pros should count... As should convertible PCs. What at their methods for calculating? It's like offering the supposition that human beings originated on a different planet and traveled here. That's nice, but where's the proof?

The article specifically says smartphone market share and talks about Windows Phone. No tablets are included for Windows or competitors.

the polls are wrong? that worked for Romney (not).

We need more Lumia and need better availability

This times 100. The launch and limited availability of ALL Lumia phones is utterly disgraceful. The L930 for example, launched 18+ months after the L920 and still not fully available. The L1030, does it even exist? Nokia know how to make new phones. However they utterly lack the ability to have regularly scheduled product updates. Say what you like about Apple. I know in late 2015, the new iPhone will come out. What are we going to have even in three months time? We know iPhones clockwork schedule years in advance. Ours is terrible and non existent. What's our 2014 Christmas flagship?

My 920 contract with ATT is ending this November and I still don't see a flagship replacement for it. The next 3 months will determine if I stay with Windows phone and I've been on windows since windows mobile 5....Android is OK, but at least I can get the latest and greatest on ATT.

What's wrong with the 930 ?

It's not available in the US, for starters.

Oops sorry I forgot I meant the icon on Verizon

Well, it's a different carrier, which means changing rate plans, coverage, etc etc etc. Very few people switch carriers for a phone nowadays.  This isn't 2008, and the 930/Icon isn't the iPhone.

The 930 is not available on AT&T. The choices would be between the 1520 now or the HTC One M8 for Windows (when released but it is expected on AT&T soon).

It sounds like the HTC One (for Windows) will be coming to ATT.  If I was due for a new phone, I would be seriously considering that phone.  I have a Lumia 928, but the One looks great.  Microsoft really needs the One to do well so more OEMs take WP seriously.  WP market share will never grow based on Lumias alone.

The 830 will be the perfect replacement.  And yes, that sounds odd being what feels (numerically) like a mid-range phone, but feature wise it is spot on with SD and replaceable battery along with 20MP camera...  and of course a quad core processor etc.

HTC One (M8). Suprised you didn't see that. Probably the most gorgeous phone ever built. 

you should have the M8 on ATT by november along with some ms devices.

Sales reps in the shops here in Germany must be trained, they mostly don't know much about the phones or the OS. But anyways, you can't control their habits about discouraging potential customers in the case of WP ... J€*&S

+1520.3 I live in the US and can state that the issues you decry are not limited to German phone shop workers. The iOS/Android duopoly and the pace of new phone releases doesn't leave them time or motivation for learning about "fringe" Operating Systems.

Exactly the same story here in italy...

I have a friend who is a rep at Bell store in Canada and she poo poos Windows Phone as useless because their USB contact transfers device can't transfer contacts from an iPhone to a Windows Phone. So her ignorance and many other reps has made it really difficult for WP. For people who sell phones all day they are woefully uneducated in the entire industry and pros and cons of each phone.

Bell are probably the worst carriers in the world, they may as well rename themselves to sammybell.

They need to unify OS updates, this way it is simply mess...

It feels a mess because the Firmware is being updated.  The OS updates fine as proven by the Developer Preview Program where many different phones get the same OS updates at the same time. Because the phone firmware is lacking features required by the OS (e.g. Bluetooth LE) they need to update that this time too.

I don't believe marketshare decreased in France. There's a lot of people around me getting WP devices, more than last year.

They have more people around them than both of us combined. So if they say it, it has more credibility than us. May be most of the people bought the phones before the period mentioned.

Yeah who cares, they've been in a holding pattern all year preparing for WP8.1. It's just like iPhone sales dipping before the launch of a new iPhone, except without the cachet of Apple and no marketing all year the dip is even more evident. I expect things to pick up now there's some 8.1 phones coming to market, by year end we should see some much improved figures.

I'm pretty sure those figures are related to currently sold phones and don't reflect the overall situation...?

No this is marketshare, not number of phones sold. Who knows how accurate it is though... the numbers are all over the place.

Looks like people using windows phone 7 are not staying and moving somewhere else.
MS failing to encourage loyalty.
Failing to tempt people away from Android and just failing in general when it comes to windows phone marketing.
They own Lumia but I have yet to see a Lumia advert on amy major tv network here in Australia.
Their marketing department if it exists should be sacked.

Why does everybody wants for Windows Phone to top the charts? When and if it happens, then everybody will have the same thing as you. Don't you like being a bit exclusive? That's what Windows Phone was all about. Being different. So what if they don't top the charts. They are still selling millions.

No, WP is not about being exclusive.  It's about having a phone with an OS that actually works.  One that doesn't constantly lag or crash.  It's about having a phone that is actually a good phone in addition to being a cool device.  I don't care if everybody else on the planet has one, I just want a phone that does what it's supposed to do on a consistant basis.

+1320

yes but I'm a developer and I can make the app you want if there are more of you thus making your device more awesome (this is me talking in the 3rd person as a hypothetical developer of an app you can't have on WP). The OS itself can be great, but let's face it, the best OS is the one that gets out of the way and lets the app shine as most of the time you spend it on apps, not the OS.

To be honest, I partially got it because it was something different. I didn't want what everyone else had... and I sure got something that everyone else doesn't have. ;)

Looks like people using windows phone 7 are not staying and moving somewhere else.
MS failing to encourage loyalty.
Failing to tempt people away from Android and just failing in general when it comes to windows phone marketing.
They own Lumia but I have yet to see a Lumia advert on any major tv network here in Australia.
Their marketing department if it exists should be sacked.

That's where I'm at right now.  I'm still using a lumia 900 with 7.8.  The phone was the "flagship" at the time and then about 2 months after launch we were told that any existing WP would never get 8.  Right there apps stopped coming and the 900 went from flagship phone to the 99 cent phone.  When asked any kind of trade in program MS said that there would be no trade in's of any sort we would have to just go and buy a new phone if we wanted 8.  How does that inspire loyalty?  Yay, 22 months left on my contract and my flagship phone is now the junk never going to get any good apps phone and MS doesn't care.    If it wasn't for the fact that I actually like the OS very much I would be long gone from WP.

I'm 99 % sure that wont happen again. As far as I know they change WP 8 completely, and they are able to make wp9 using the same code so the apps work in 8 and 9 and moving forward. Things are not always greener on the other side, ios and android are no better that's for sure. I love the user interface of WP. Much better and smoother than ios and android.

I was in the same situation, but since I didn't care much about apps I was fine with it. I got a Lumia 521 and broke my AT&T contract a year later though after having broken the display . It was worth the $200 in penalty, the 521 was a neat little phone. ButI have to say though, the Lumia 900 is an absolutely gorgeous phone still. It feels fantastic in the hand and works flawlessly. It does fewer things but it does them really well. I just wish that they hadn't been advertised with that "End of the smartphone beta" ad campaign.... lol.

UK Windows Phone market is growing fast and we're helping many businesses migrate from BlackBerry devices at our company however still concerned why Microsoft is taking their time in releasing full version of Bing and Cortana here, they need to invest more resources in the EU market before users give up. Today we have migrated another company and users love the Windows Phone however they are mostly complaining about high Xbox Music Pass subscription monthly fee, Bing being very limited compared to Google here in UK also lack of certain essential apps such as Sonos and other entertainment related apps including remotes. Hopping Microsoft addresses these soon also a personal concern is over lack of simple native apps/features such as countdown/timer, Play To option as Project keeps failing like Windows version does.

This! I find it quite sad that MS is so U.S. centric.

the last time I went to the carrier shop (telcel) in Mexico WP is absent in the shelve, except for a couple of 710 (in pink).

I hope things go well post iPhone launch. Many challenges ahead for WP.

This don't surprise me. Microsoft efforts are focused on the US, instead of make it stronger in markets that already have more than 5%.

Indeed!

Agreed!

Salesmen praise windows phone a lot here in India. They say don't compare it with Droid. It's faster smoother though has less ram but its enough for normal use. Even though explaining things doesn't help customers to fully opt windows phone and blindly go for Droid. Microsoft needs to advt here in India a hec a lot of bring the Nokia glory back. Even 530 had launched still they haven't shown any advt on television and they stopped showing ads of 630.

True
Microsoft must have to make awesome advertise with covering all 8.1 features, mostly notification bar & start screen customization

Cortana too.

Hi, I don't want to stereotype, but I guess the ordinary Indian smartphone user has a comparatively good grasp of technology. Most WP users I know could explain easily why they chose this OS over another (featurewise), while I doubt that my friends using iOS or Android could...Maybe that helps driving sales over in India?

We are the best!!  ITALY!!!!! More WP sold than iP*****

Congrats! Italiens have taste....

I think with a lot of low-cost OEMs signing, the marketshare in China should rise. However, I'm not convinced that the Chinese market is overly important. I recognize that it is a large country with a large number of smartphone users. However, with the government always trying to cause problems and the fact that China is generally about low-cost low-quality items and piracy, I'm not sure how beneficial it is. I'm far more concerned about the U.S. market where there have been only minimal gains. The U.S. is Microsoft's home turf and has a much larger influence on other countries as well and they can't even seem to get 5% marketshare here.

A shame but am not too surprised. Since the 520 Nokia hasn't really released anything for the masses. The 1020 and 1520 were niche devices at the top end and we're only just starting to get a new set with the 630/930 and whatever comes out next week. There's been nothing really for the average person to walk into a store and look at yet there's ten new options every week just from Samsung, let alone all the other Android OEMS. ;) Throw in all the new OEMs and the 730/830 and hopefully we'll see decent growth over the next 12 months. Or fingers crossed anyway. If things are the same (or worse) in August 2015 then there's a *major* problem.

I bought the 635 the other week. If that phone had a FF camera (even a 1.3MP) and flash, it would be a fantastic phone. I don't understand why they didn't put it on it, being it's the very first mass market phone with WP8.1.

Where are the new phones at?! Stop making carrier exclusives and that'll definitely increase market share.

+930

The Lumia 630 is currently the best selling smartphone (without contract / plan) on Amazon here in Germany and has around 800 reviews (average rating: 4,5).

Maybe if they would release higher end phones WITH SD Card slots they would gain some ground.  Doing things like giving you high resolution camera's, 20-41mp, and then no SD card slot is kinda baffling.  Also, stop focusing on the low end market.  All the recent releases have been in the lower end.  I want a new 9XX or 10XX device with a card slot.  I don't want to downgrade to a 5XX or 6XX model just to get SD capability.  That onedrive crap they keep pushing does not replace SD cards as carriers keep clamping down on data usage.   You are not going to compete with Android if your phones are not technically on par.  It's frustrating, they have a superior OS to both apple and android but they keep making what seem like stupid decisions that do nothing to forward the brand.
 

Up in 5 countries and down in 5 countries. But eyeballing the numbers it seems the up side totals 11.2% and the downside was 9.8%. So lets just call this more sideways movement. Still better than declining I suppose but the problem is that Android continues to grow market share.  That's the real problem.   That's the real long term competition.  Forget Apple.

530 is the answer.

Too late. They should have released 530 and 930 earlier, mid range should have been available now and release a monster flagship late this year (not necessarily McLaren, 1530 or 935). MS is really not aggressive and they should be.

It takes a lot of time actually to prepare device for launch, it's not like they have a magic wand and just wave it around and new device is inside the store ready for customers. And don't forget about acquisition between MS and Nokia, which made a little block for new releases. I believe they will be agressive enough, but things at MS is reforming and it takes some time before company will be well oiled machine again..

Mid ranges will be available in about a week (730, 830), and monster flagship is the HTC One M8 and 930. Other Android phones may be coming over as well (LG). 

I'm sure they are moving as fast as they can.  I doubt its lack of attitude.   Having said that, the fact that their "hurry up" pace can't keep up with the competition is a bad bad sign for the future.  Maybe Nadella will light a fire under this companies ass

Maybe they should try making a device with all the features people want. Instead of the half baked approach they have to hardware features. If Nokia had only teamed with Android I'd be in heaven.

There's several android options, choose one. You're different though to go as far making an account on this site to troll. Also who picks a phone due to hardware? Dell or HP, windows on both.......pick one

The problem here in Australia is lack of good advertising of the phones, plus the price of the phones here compared to elsewhere in the world and the lack of variety of WP's provided by Telstra, Optus and Vodafone.
I'm with Vodafone and at the moment they have two WP's to choose from: Lumia 930 & 1320.
The other carriers are offering the 930, 635 (Optus) & 930, 1320, 635 (Telstra)
If you want the 1520, 1020 or any other Lumia you gotta get them somewhere else and when not on a plan, they range in the $600-800 range. Check out harveynorman.com.au for price examples.
I know the WP OS and Lumias are a superior phone (8.1) as I tried both Androids and iPhones & hated both. My wife loves her 1320 (previously had a Galaxy S3), my co worker has a 1020 and loves it, my mother in law has a 625, my mother has an older Lumia & I have a 925. They all prefer them over other phones out there.
Microsoft has something going right, it just needs to get out there more.
With the marketing blitz over the Lumia 800 (7.5 - my first WP) it just wasn't there and lacked things Android and iPhone had. With 8.1, it's a competitive system now and better than the others imo. But I think they burned out some people with the last blitz. They need to get some commercials out there showcasing 8.1 and not just the cameras.

Lot of econ majors in this thread. Who knew smart phones could do this?

Im trying to be positive but it's hard with these slow Cyan roll outs, late phone availability (ehem 930), weak marketing/ advertising. Come on MS!

In México, with moto's g and e, its getting harder for people to get L520 or some, besides it takes ages for phones to be released here, no word on the 930, 1320 is just slowing making an entrance. Personally I'm fine with the OS, (with some aspects that needs improvement, of course) I m always showing my 720 to my friends and they really seem surprised by it, even some of them enough to buy a Lumia. But its true that there's a need for a strong (family of) devices, with a focused marketing strategy unique features, and not just playing catch up, and something about apps.!!! Why do we have to live with eternal Betas, and half- feature apps, we are not second class users no matter how hard everything around us try to say that.

The problem is that in emerging markets cheap android devices with good specs are dominating. The 530 and 630 aren't really upgrades over the 520 and 620. Microsoft needs to provide better specifications on a budget. Also, the high end segment doesn't really create any buzz. There's no Nokia Windows Phone out there that can really change the game. Microsoft needs to step it up.

I think China's end game will to supplant both windows and Android with a mandatory home grown version. Easier to track and manage your account that way. China is gunning for total information ownership within its territory. Windows, Android and whatever other non government sanctioned OSes will all fall at some point.

Nokia X in China killed their own... But seriously need a distant flow of devices. Android just had their heyday of releases where is WP.

Personally, I'm optimistic that we will see further update rollouts materialize faster. 8.1 was a massive update involving huge changes for the OS on almost every corner. Taking all these changes into account, I find it totally understandable that those who have not yet received the update are getting impatient as WP 8.0 seems to be almost dead already. We shouldn't forget that all upcoming devices will be shipped with 8.1 already preinstalled, which should explain why the average consumer - at least here in Germany - seems to be rather satisfied with those devices (referring to the 630 reviews on Amazon). As Windows Phone evolves further in the next months, I believe the cornerstone to success will be the App side, whilst Microsoft of course does need to take more action on enhancing their own Apps (likewise Skype or Music) as well as paving the way for Threshold. My personal outlook remains slightly optimistic.

Is it possible to just read an article without everyone feeling the necessity to play the blame game? Sometimes it's ok to just say "There is more work to be done...regardless". Also, it IS ok to not always lead the pack, there's lots of room in the world for more than just number 1...you know? Things will be things and Microsoft will keep selling WP, we'll all keep smiling and buying...well I know I will at least.

The main issue I see is Windows Phone has lost most of its unique dna in a bid to become a watered down copy of Android. MSFT need to make up their minds as to who they're targeting.
The numbers show a sideways shift, neither good nor bad.

Glad to see that here in Italy wp is popular, with plenty of 520. Btw they need more support from carriers and tv ads. Wp owners are, as far as I can see, proud of their os and tend to recommend it to others. This could really help.

If I entered the tube or a bus in Italy, would I see these devices in public? I mean those figures appear trustworthy, but still, I always wonder why I don't see those devices in public.

Marketing to consumers has always been Microsoft's weakness. When a feature similar to "Find My Phone" was announced for Android last year, it was front page news. Gee. My WP came with that as standard equipment. No 3rd party app required. And recently, I'm seeing a lot of ads for a Samsung phone with a feature similar to Kid's Corner. Pffft. We've had that since 8.0 rolled out. I suspect their consumer focus groups and test markets do not reflect a broad demographic, either domestically or internationally, if they think those features aren't worth advertising. They also need to realize that if they're going to sell hardware, they're going to have to step up the dev cycle. They can't spend 3 or 4 years perfecting the next device before introducing it. They have to have at least one device at each price point every spring and fall, not exclusive to any carrier. Those 6+ phones don't have to be game changers, but they have to be comparable + a little better than the devices they are going to replace as contracts expire or holiday buying begins. Lastly, they need to advertise. When was the last time we saw a WP ad here on the premier WP site??? Yeah, I can't remember either. But then again, they have to have phones to advertise...

Keep your fingers crossed for the 830. If rumors are true, this could become a very competitive device....

+ 720
Same here, If at least some rumors... came to be true, in some form. Really looking forward to the official announcement

If you wait long enough, say 50-60 years, all your enemies will be dead. That's what MS does. Good luck
 

I think this plays a very big role of low market share for WP. http://www.neowin.net/news/when-talking-with-customer-service-reps-it-becomes-clear-why-windows-phone-isnt-selling-well

That's shocking

Very interesting and enlightening article, eleshoe. Thank you for sharing.

The problem is and has always been the lack of support for part of Microsoft. I'm a .NET developer currently working for HP who has owned a Windows Phone device since the begining, my first phone was an LG Optimus 7 back in the day. I used to love the OS, back when the Me tile was actually cool and the Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn integration worked ok. A few months ago I had an idea for an app, it involved heavy use of Maps and Social Integration so i started to look into the implementation of letting the user Log In with facebook. After some days of research i was frustated, in a few words, it was a pain, the documentation was almost non existent, the "sample projects" that i found on the internet were outdated and even the facebook developers website does not provide much support for windows phone, only for iOS and Android. After some frustation, I decided to try to code and implement this functionallity on XCode (iOS) devices even thought I did not had much experience with Objective-C, after a few hours of playing around with it, looking for examples and samples, i had a sample app that connected with facebook, show me the users profile picture and data... I never understood why companies seemed to be ignoring the Windows phone plataform. As a user i find it fast responsive and intuitive, however after playing with the SDKs from different plataforms, looking at documentation and support forums it clicked, its just hard and not worth the time, as a developer i dont want to spend days trying to find a simple example on how to implement something as simple as a login. Maybe Windows Phone 9 will change this, but then again we've been waiting for windows phone to rise up since the begining and i dont see that happening any time soon, so i guess ill try to push my app to the App Store and Google Play, windows phone will have to wait, hopefully they'll update the SDKs, Samples and Documentation. Apps bring people into the plataform, withouth them people will just go back to those companies that fill their needs...    

And you need a windows 8.1 pro licence to actually run the official emulator for developers. Why would they do something like that? It's not as if pro has anything extra. It's a total pain to develop for I agree, and it should just be as simple as starting up visual studio 2013 (which doesn't support the sdk inexplicably), writing .net code, and using the emulator to run it. But it isn't. It's part of the reason for the lack of many apps.

Interesting, I hope someone @ Microsoft is reading this.

Thanks for sharing

What about India

Lies

I know several people in the office who have Windows phones, all nokia of course. From associate level to bosses

Microsoft is weak at marketing and promotion of its devices and services but Windows Phone is very beautiful and strong OS. It just needs a few things like good Music and Video players, USB OTG, etcetra, and a little openness for OEMs UI-wise to attract them making different devices.
I see WP's marketshare between 15 to 20% worldwise after the end of 2015. Remember my words.

Who is this guy neonspark? So pessimistic! Trolling a bit.

Awesome that it's increasing in the UK wp ftw!

They should hire me.

I don't think WP is going to advance by taking on Android and iPhone head on. They need to take a different tack. Some suggestions would be to sell all Microsoft Lumia phones unlocked for use on any carrier, like Google does with the Nexus phones. If the carriers aren't really pushing the phones why stick with them? Create their own WP MVNO phone service you can buy bundled with the phone, maybe by partnering with T-Mobile. Make it a killer deal for new users: get a new phone, unlocked so you can take it anywhere, but it comes with something like a gb of data and unlimited talk and text for $30 a month for the first year. Sell them direct from the Microsoft store with free shipping and no contracts. That will get more people trying out WP. Keep pushing the camera aspects of Lumia. Everyone I know uses their phone as their primary camera now. Figure out how to make the camera instantly turn on and take photos nearly instantly--that is the biggest frustration of phone cameras--they are way too slow. The ads will write themselves: the WP user captures the moment, the Android user captures someone's backside. Use the Lumia branding and gradually phase out the "Windows" aspect. For multiple reasons, Windows has negative connotations to many people. You don't have to get rid of it. Just use Lumia on the front, and somewhere on the back in tiny print put "Powered by Microsoft."

+525.... Why the hell does a phone need to be carrier exclusive at all....? The user base is obviously more in all the carriers rather than a single one.... Don't understand this carrier strategy in USA,... And their sales guys are backstabbing bastards who promote IOS and android when they have to be promoting windows phone

Looks like WP doing OK overall in Europe (8.5% vs iOS 14.5%).   For some reason, the US just doesn't get WP, maybe because Nokia was seen as European (in the same way, Motorola never got out of the US).  The key is China, and getting the Chinese OEMs to add WP to their product mix.  If the Chinese OEMs add WP to their offer, they will sell plenty.   The US will be the last place WP conquers, if ever.

I have no clue how they could ever get a foothold in the Chinese market. The way Chinese are making their decisions in a nutshell: You buy what is popular. How you are perceived by friends / families matters more than in other cultures (and you don't want to "lose your face" by owning a WP). I was reading an article about hundreds of thousands gathering at the World Cup in China supporting Germany and when the author was asking one fan why they were supporting Germany the answer was: "We support winners, not losers." So I'm not saying that Microsoft is a loser, but it should give us a clue on why they won't gain momentum there any time soon. 

I'm surprised the numbers in the US rose at all. The only Windows Phone device I've ever seen in stores is the 520, and that's if you're lucky. Apple stores managed to be packed with people even in the middle of the week; wheras Microsoft stores are so desolate you can practically see the tumbleweed. It's pathetic and I'm suprised Microsoft would even venture to open stores in malls where Apple stores are already located, making the difference particularly stark. Microsoft products are easy enough to find, except for Windows Phone. What they should have done is pay for shelf space in regular stores; allocating space for a Microsoft/Windows Phone center. What they need is exposure. Americans in particular are one-dimensional, gravitating towards whatever they perceive as popular, be it the iPhone or Android, specifically the Samsung Galaxy and HTC One in a more distant second. They wont even consider an alternative unless you hammer them with it's positives. Instead, Microsoft leaves Windows Phone to languish, promoting it only amongst those who've already bought in to the platform. They also leave the carriers to jerk around WP owners, potential or otherwise, and thus far I've seen no evidence they're trying to address this.

I know why it went down in Mexico,
I was looking for a better Nokia new phone tha my last 920, and for the last 6 months there's wasn't new terminal to buy.
I had to wait for my actual 1020 almost 4 months.. And today it still no new o better equipments on the market.

True!, exactly my point, (maybe in this particular case the Nokia adquisition have something  to add to the delays, I dont know).
We know that new devices are coming, but the worst part is that they may announce them but it can take months to get here -and sometimes with not so balance prices-, so how can they expect to grow marketshare without new devices and a wave of cheap androids (some of them quite "capable"). Basically with no TV ADS or other media, or a strong consistent marketing Come on Microsoft! Bring it!

There just arent enough OEMs with enough devices to keep up the marketshare. Retailers want to offer a wide seletion of phones from various OEMs. Many consumes just want a nice looking phone. Besides retailer employees recommending Android over WP, many consumers pick Android because 95% of the offering is Android. And OEMs wont massively produce WP devices because they dont believe it will sell. It's a vicious circle. Android never had this problem as OEMs needed something to stand against Apple.They supported Android because it was their only chance, when a few made the move the rest quikly followed. And Android was terrible in the beginnng but support from OEMs ensured cosumers bought these phones.

I love my 1020 however, I use it as a second phone for two reasons: 1)The Gear Fit is just amazing and I love it, so MS, please hurry up and develop something like that 2)My swiss carrier doesn't developp their software for WP, so if I want to use their soft, I have to go for Android or iOS It's not only MS fault, it's carrier fault as well, they sell phones and they don't do anything for WP....MS should talk to them and make them work for WP.....

I think ms should take over bb and take all the security features from it and make an awesome set of devices for the business user.

There's quite a few people at MS that should be fired, many already have been. Some were forced out. Things are changing and development is moving forward rapidly. We really won't know how well all the changes have worked until this time next year.

In Mexico there are really few places you can buy a Windows Phone, even Beat Buy doesn't sell them anymore! Only in Telcel you can buy them with a big range of selection, but they always recommend they users to buy an Android or an iPhone, and the new models late a couple of months to came out in here when the new Android phones came here in just a couple of weeks

Is kantar believable?

The home screen of windows phone of most of the people is attractive enough to force fandroids to think about WP. Just show them your attractive screen and then argue.

Before everyone goes getting their panties in a wad over this article, I've just been to the Kantar website and I don't see anything worth fretting over.  If you go back and look at Windows Phone market shart from 2012 and compare each country to today, you will see that market share has been up and down.  But current market share in almost every country is at least twice what it was in 2012, even in the USA.  Changing people from iOS and Android to WP isn't going to happen overnight.  It takes baby steps, which turn into adult steps, which turn into adult speedwalking and then jogging, and running.  That is how you win the race, slow and steady, building up momentum.  This is exactly what Microsoft is doing and despite articles of gloom and doom, Windows Phone is gaining in market share.  We just have to keep pushing our friends, family and co-workers to make the switch.   Another thing that gives me confidence is the fact that I've been reading some of the reviews of iOS8 preview users and they don't sound exactly too enthusiastic about the new Apple OS.  This is really unusual for Apple fan boys to be downplaying an update.  If they aren't excited, perhaps the general public might be persuaded to switch to Windows Phone out of disappointment for the new iOS8 platform.   Only time will tell.

Have up till now switched 9 family members and 5 friends/colleagues over to Windows Phone, still on the case :P

How can they be sure these days that the numbers are right?
When running DP with update 1 on my Lumia 1020, it showed up as a Nokia iPhone with iOS 7 and IE11 on whatismybrowser.com
Now, "downgraded" to official 8.1 and Cyan it is once again a Windows phone :D

Wow, that would be a rare phone

Microsoft don't reinvent the wheel. Just had someone who had a gs3 and now struggling with an HTC one! Things that work must not be tempered with, data sharing via USB - 2008 Nokia could do that and now 2014 I cannot!?

Instead of these stats on shipping, I would love to see just how many of each device is actually connected to a network.

You know what im tired of hearing always doom and gloom for wp each time one of these reports are released. Overall these figures are not oo bad considering only 2 phones were released and to a limited market and for the most part the figures are pretty good. All tech sites should really be looking at the IOS numbers because at the end of the day they are going downhill pretty fast for several months now. The headline on all tech sites should be IOS lost 14% marketshare in the USA in one quarter.

Live tiles were the future, now (after not making them dynamic enough) other OS's are starting to be less static and copy whilst gaining recognition for Microsoft's work, it's as if the are in a room talking and miss every chance to let WP shine

Yeay Just shows how much us Brits , amd the even more stylish Italians appreciate great choice in Smartphones OS. Keep it up guys. Even if our Scottish fans decide to abandon us, we can still show our love of Windows Phone.

When you're behind nothing comes fast enough: New updates, new handsets, new apps. MS' advertising is just so bad and doesn't show of the right features.