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Did Microsoft know Windows Phone 7 would be superceded prior to its launch?

Not great news today from the Windows Phone camp. It would appear that CNET have been chatting with Greg Sullivan from Microsoft and what he has said isn't what Windows Phone users wanted to hear.

It seems that Microsoft has know for a long time that Windows Phone 7 would be replaced by Windows Phone 8.

"It was right after Windows Phone 7," Sullivan said, speaking in an interview with CNET UK. The team that developed the 7.5 release actually was working in parallel with the core team that was already beginning [Windows Phone 8]. In fact some of that work was already initiated before Windows Phone 7 was even available -- so this goes back a little bit."

"It is true that this is a generational shift -- that is a rare occurrence, but it's something we don't expect to have happen again in the foreseeable future because of the headspace that the new architecture gives us."

While I would imagine that the majority of blogs that write about this will just complain about Microsoft keeping us in the dark, I on the other hand am looking at this realistically. How many operating systems are there that get a big software upgrade that will then work on all older hardware? As far as I can see there is only one that seems to have nailed it and that is iOS. While Android tries to update as many devices from the past 18 months or so they are quite often at the mercy of the carriers and manufacturers. At least Apple seem to have a good track record of keeping older hardware up to date. RIM has been guilty of the same. Many OS 5.0 handsets were not upgradable to BlackBerry 6 and none of those were ever going to see BlackBerry 7.

What I am getting at here is that this is just the way the mobile industry works. Sure, if you have bought a Windows Phone in the last 6 months or so it may have been nice to know an update was coming and the hardware would not be compatible. But that is never going to happen as manufactures need to sell phones.

At least it is encouraging to know that we shouldn't see this scenario again for some time with Windows Phone.

The whole thing isn't ideal but ideal but that's how the business seems to work.

Source: CNET

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Reader comments

Did Microsoft know Windows Phone 7 would be superceded prior to its launch?

306 Comments

 
The problem is, that no, this does not happen with other operating systems. RIM has been very upfront about their OS 10 and that older devices will not geti it. And Apple and Google ALWAYS provide updates for the older phones. Of course this applies to the Nexus brand of Android, but even for other phones you can always go with a custom ROM because Android is open source. With WP you are at the mercy of Microsoft.
So this is NOT the same and Microsoft has really screwed the WP users. Please make no excuses for them.

Some Android phones runs like crap with ICS. Some iPhones runs like crap with the latest iOS. Please don't start forcing your opinion on everyone else in here. Ours are as legit as yours.

The Nexus S is a single core 1 GHz device with 512 MB RAM. It will get Jelly Bean in a few days.
 
So no, your opinion is not legit in this case, because you are wrong.

Not sure where you got the single CPU and 512MB of RAM for the Nexus S, but that is completely wrong.  The Nexus S is a 1.2Ghz dual-core with 1GB of RAM.  The original Nexus will NOT get ICS or JB update, as it doesn't have the necessary hardware to run.

Well my mistake I mistakenly thought he was talking about the newer Nexus. I apologize for that. Sorry.
 
My statement still stands though that some phones that are getting ICS will run slow and laggy.
 
Sony Ericsson did the right thing with their Xperia play for example taking back their ICS update as they said it would be too slow. And they actually officially went out warning all of their users of other phones in their 2011 lineup that the update to ICS would be a compromise in performance in regards to Gingerbread.

Look at android, I had android for like 5 years and every update males your phone super slow unless you buy a new device, I am super excited with wp8 and will buy a new device because im a huge WP supporter and think WP is the best operating system out there, so for WP to be even better they can't run everything on these basic devices, and one of the beer things about WP is that it runs sooooo smooth you dont want to jepordize that

I agree with you, and I had an Android Samsung Vibrant and it's an okay device. Once I upgraded to froyo my phone went to crap and it's already crap with all the thing you can think off. It lags, freezes and crashes. At least I have the OS I dreamed off but the phone is useless. I rather stick to my windows phone money well spent.

Oh come on, you must buy the new iPhone every two years then, cause running the latest OS on a phone older than that runs like crap. I have an iPad that runs much slower with the latest OS too.

I really think you need to step back and look at this a bit subjectively.  I mean, would I love the WP8 update?  Sure.  But most of the improvements are hardware related.  No software update is going to add a piece of hardware to your phone.  So, they are giving us the 7.8 update which will include the start screen and such that doesn't make use of newer hardware.  I think it's a fair compromise for the customers.  Most of what WP8 would bring appears that it would end up disabled anyway because the hardware just wouldn't be there.
 
AND they can now focus on making WP8 the best it can be without trying to pretend hardware is there or check constantly for this or for that...  I mean, really.  If it had been more software features it would be one thing, but it's really not.

Microsoft has said the sneak peak they had in SF was all for the developers and was pretty much all hardware and things most users dont get excited about they will have more leaks to come, I think there are going to be HUGE software improvements

 
I am sorry to say this, but you are completely clueless. The most important thing about WP8 is the software, not the hardware. Nobody cares about NFC, dual cores or high res screens. They are nice, but you do not NEED them. But what you will very soon find out is that you NEED the software improvements that WP8 brings – new APIs, native code support and all this backend stuff that you obviously have no clue about.
 
So please stop with the “WP8 will not give you new hardware” nonsense. It is irrelevant.

"Nobody cares about NFC, dual cores or high res screens."
 
Apparently Steve Jobs has risen from the dead. I guess we can discount all of the excitement over quad cores and HD screens.
 
Software and hardware are equally important for WP8 because it must fight the admittedly idiotic battle over specs for the general consumer. No you do not need them, but for hardware parity, they are needed.

I said that those things are nice. But they are not essential. And the point that I was making was that the hardware is not the most important part of WP8 - the software is. Please don't mix up two completely different topics.

They are different but intertwined topics that are both of equal importance. WP8 devices can't come out with the latest single core chip sets and low res screens or they'd get chewed up. You can't just disregard hardware because YOU don't view it to be important.

Hardware is essential in Microsoft's roadmap for Windows Phone and consumer perception: they add capabilities and value to the platform since MS has expanded their sensor support. Also, WP8 has the same minimum system requirements as a PC: 1GB RAM is new for WP AFAIK, display resolution is covered, and increased storage capacity has been addressed.

It's not just nice to have these new hardware capabilities. There is synergy among the WP8 OS and the hardware it runs on. And their combined capabilities enhance the UX.

IMO ;-)

People do care about NFC and bigger screens and more cores. It was tough to sell Windows Phones in my store when they had a quad core phones available. People wanna think that their phone is fast and the best, and even though windows phone doesn't really need more cores, there software is baked into the hardware, people still want that feeling that they have to have the best beefier phone. Remember Windows Phone is playing catch up with only a 5% gain in the market. They need to have these hardware upgrades to make customers/ oems happy.

The sales associates can be blamed for this false perception they perpetuate that we need multicore. As far as I'm concerned the vast majority of sales associates feed into the advertising Kool-Aid.

The current single core WPs provide a superior UX in responsiveness compared to the multicore Android and iPhone.

I still don't see the necessity for multicore on a smartphone at the current state of the art in low power chips and battery technology *** for consumers ***: how many of you need to do serious number crunching on your smartphone?

Yeah, I think people want windows phone to be what windows desktop OS was. And we all know though flexible every incarnation of windows should not have been allowed to be backwards compatible with old hardware. Microsoft finally ditched 32bit support in server and desktop and we will reap benefit from that. Apple ditched RISC, etc. This stuff happens and needs to happen lest an ecosystem be held back the way windows was for a decade. To think otherwise is simply silly. I am not angry, this is life in electronics.

7.5 technically will get updated to 7.8.  WP8 is incredibly hardware dependent.  Given the small marketshare, this is the absolute best time to do it and do it right.  I think WP8 would have to be hacked and slashed to work on current gen phones.  I'd rather them bolster it for newer hardware than neuter it for current handsets.
 
Now, the best thing for them and carriers would be a deal to upgrade devices early and have MS just eat the cost.  It's the right thing to do for people who are adopting the platform right NOW.  Myself? I bought a focus on day 1 so I'm going to upgrade anyway.  But someone who bought a 900 yesterday? Yeah, highly discounted upgrade is what they should have an option for.

RIM was NOT upfront about OS 5 phones not being upgradeable to OS 6 and the same with 6.1 to 7. You must stop talking in generalities because Apple & Google do not always provide updates for older phones. You don't remember the outcry from Iphone 3G users when it was announced only the 3GS & 4 were getting updates? Also, average users don't even know what a ROM is, so when their EVO 3D doesn't get updated, who are they going to blame?
 
My point is, it is a VERY valid comparison and it isn't excusing them.

No it is not. The iPhone 3G was a 3 generations old phone when it was no longer updated. The Lumia is a FEW MONTHS old. Please stop with the bias.

Bias? Last I looked this was WPCentral. I come for and expect bias! Go to bloody CNET if you want impartiality. (yes the sarcasm was intentional)

Mr burrns leave off. I had an iPhone 3G, and when 3GS came out there were some features not possible on the 3G - and besides, it ran like cr4p - so I offloaded my iPhone 3G.

Microsoft are a huge company, who will have dev teams finalising or bug fixing one prodocut, and already starting new projects.
Lumia was not a Microsoft phone, it was a Noklia phone as Nokia decided to jump ship to Windows. The Lumia phones won't stop working, in fact I have a Lumia 710 that got 3 updates only yesterday. 7.8 will also come to it. I'm very happy I will get new functionality on the 2 WP7 phones I have.
But I will also rush out and buy a v8 phone when they come out.
I won't any longer buy a Blackberry, as I hardly ever get a guaranteed update, and I have a Blackberry for work (although thats under review).
Andoird is a fragmented mess. I won't go there. The only viable place it to go back to iPhone, its still the most supported.
But as  Hotmail (moved off GMAIL, and GApps) Skydrive, Xbox, OneNote, Windows 7 users I still think Windows Phone 8 will be the best experience.
Microsoft have provided me with the most solid phone experience I've ever had, and I reckon 8 might be a truly sweety deal.

The iPhone 3G was sold and supported by Apple for 2 years between June08 to June10. In June10 it was still considered by Apple to be a current gen phone as it was being activity sold on-contract as their budget option. 3 months after it was discontinued a new version of IOS was released that wasn't supported on the 3G.

What point are you trying to make here?

You may want to check your facts.  iOS 5 in June 2011 was the first time iPhone 3G was unsupported by Apple's latest software revision.  Three years after the phone launched.  One year after the phone was discontinued.  The Lumia 900, the current flagship Windows Phone, will be 7 months old when it becomes fragmented from future revisions of the OS.  That is the point being made here...

It will get 7.8.
WHen IOS cmae out for 3GS, some features did not work on the 3G model:
"When running on iPhone 3G, iOS 4 disables multitasking, background wallpapers, Bluetooth keyboard support, and a "data protection" feature"
Not only that, it ran like cr4p - and my battery lasted much less. I offloaded my iPhone 3G at that point, it was knobbled. So take the Apple tinted glasses off. Windows Phone is no better or no worse in this respect.
Its still much better than the "maybe you will" "maybe you won't" Android or Blackberry updates. And this is coming from someone who has owned all phones, and not talking from "talk" but experience.
 

I say the Lumia 900 is a great WP and will serve its owners well.

I'd also like to add, pay up or shut up about 1st and 2nd Gen WPs not being upgradeable to WP8 to anyone complaining about this decision.

I dont know I have an iPad that cannot play a ton of applications because the new update features dont work on my existing iPad. Either way, nobody buys there phone or computer thinking the company OWES them more. I bought my phone and iPad with what it could do then, not if they will get an update and possibilities later. There are more important things in life. The phones were probably free or heavily discounted. Just silly

Exactly. I think the Android and iPhone fanboys come here and whinge cos they are intimidated by the mighty WP7. Very insecure. ;)
 

So now companies need to stop innovating to make their product better. Every iOS device does not get all the features included in the next iteration of their operating system, they only receive specific features......this is a fact, because I also have several the 3GS and 4, which didn't get all the features the 4s has. So with that said, MS is following suite with apple by providing an update that gives its older devices limited features of the new OS.

And yet only 10% of Android phones are even using ICS. Even if what you're saying is true, the average consumer clearly doesn't actually care.

Bro! We've know for more than a year that WP8 would be running a NT core. You don't go from CE to NT without having to cut the cord in some manner. Maybe you didn't know this, but the  media tech blogs are patently ignoring this fact just to have stories to write and, of course, make it seem like MS is doing something that's never been done before. Okay, MS just officially confirmed it 100% at their developer conference, but we've all known. Hell, Nokia has known, but no one is going to run around talking about it until the very last minute.
The older iPhones are not going to get the full v5 update and features. They can't Android is the same way. Not every device is going to support ICS, so the point you're trying to make is false. And the majority of WP8 features wouldn't be supported on existing hardware anyway, because these devices don't have the built in chips, slots, GPUs, etc to support the big features that Apollo is bringing. So again, everyone is making a big to do about nothing. That's a fact.

for me i think its a good thing that ms are coming up with so many ideas that they are finding a need to develop different operating systems to house them. however what is less obvious is whether ms are balancing thier commercial interests with thier moral interets. to ms: please ms before you take our hard earned money of us bear in mind thier are big fans of your products out there especially on forums like these. and people will continue to buy your products so long as theyre good. however i think they couldnt say anything (commercially) because they needed people to buy wp7 and start playing catch up to apple, would you say anything given this position? but thats the crux of it isnt it you are not giving people the choice to do what they want with thier money! so i think what im trying to say is i understand it. but i dont agree with it.

for me i think its a good thing that ms are coming up with so many ideas that they are finding a need to develop different operating systems to house them. however what is stinks is whether ms are being open and honest with us and letting customers choose the product they want and are ms balancing thier commercial interests with thier moral interets. to ms: please ms before you take our hard earned money of us bear in mind thier are big fans of your products out there especially on forums like these. and people will continue to buy your products so long as theyre good and offer the things people want. however i think they couldnt say anything (commercially) because they needed people to buy wp7 and start playing catch up to apple, would you say anything given this position? but thats the crux of it isnt it you are not giving people the choice to do what they want with thier money! so i think what im trying to say is i understand it. but i dont agree with it.

@MrBurrrns - if you understood how the software industry works, you would have expected this. Anyone who has a clue about developing software (not only mobile) should be well aware that major projects like operating systems are not thrown together in six months. Therefore, pretty much by definition, those working on 7.5 (or 7) would be able to have an idea of what will come some time later. Not every detail, but the basic idea. You think Microsoft cooked Win 8 up sometime early in 2012? They've been making plans for this for a long time (note that they worked on the surface for 3 years - it's meant to provide hardware for an operating system). When you dream up Win8, you also think about how that touches mobile - for your developer community, and your own code base to maintain. It's not like Microsoft hasn't tried to bring together two disparate OSes before (Win NT and Win 95 families in Win XP).

Seriously, this is pissing me off even more. I was promised up to 10 years of updates and now this? Making me want to go back to Android...

I hope you are being sarcastic, as no mobile device provider will promise 10 years of updates period, let alone support a product for 10 years.

I believe where they are shooting themselves in the foot is that the biggest marketing campaign they had for a Windows Phone happened moments before they stopped development for it. I bought a Lumia 900 a few weeks ago, and was quite surprised for there to be no Windows Phone 8 support. I hadn't heard that the platform was changing in any of the updates about the new OS, which would hae likely kept me from upgrading from my iPhone 4 until after the new ones come out. Hopefully we will continue to have support on the Win 7 side, because its going to be really tough for all these new people with W7P if we stop having apps made for our devices in 4 months.

You have an account here and this possibility didn't cross your mind? I was up for an upgrade and I waited to hear the details on wp8. Plus, I really didn't get the hoopla about the 900, Focus S seems better. I'll stick with my focus until there is some better options.

I know I'm deviating from the primary conversation, but the Focus S PALES in comparison to the Lumia 900.  I own a Focus S, and while it is extremely light, it's build quality is not up to the same as any Lumia (610, 710, 800 or 900.)
 
I do agree that some Lumia owners will feel like they have been left behind, especially those in the US as they couldn't upgrade for another 18-20 months.

Pales in comparison?? I think not. The build on my Focus S is amazing and has held up phenomonally, countless drops onto tile and concrete, traveling all over the world, and being used to its fullest every single day for business and pleasure, its been a dream owning this sleek, slim super amoled plus beast and specs wise, its the same phone as yours minus lte so aside from getting it done 10 seconds before my S, ill stick with my better camera and purer windows phone experience. (does your even say its a WP on the outside?) After the Tango update, the Focus S feels like a finely tuned athlete..and its more than capable of making me happy until upgrade time...seems like no one is feeling the same for the 900...interesting...

Yes, pales in comparison.  The Focus S has a nice build but the Lumia 900 is a solid unibody device with an even nicer screen.  There is absolutely nothing more pure about the Focus S windows phone experience, that's just nonsense.  The less written on a phone, the better - the home button is the only logo these phones need.  As for being happy with the phones, you seem to mentally train yourself to ignore phones that are better than yours...some of us prefer to actually own a better phone.

Better is subjective so what's better to you isn't better period just because you say so. We are in the same boat, 7.8 in our future, we have the same processor , same storage, and screen quality is also subjective as I prefer to vibrant Samsung displays over the darkened Nokia ones so again, better how? I've had plenty of hands on time with the 900 and its not an upgrade to the Focus S, and that's the facts. The Nokia 900 is a mango device and it was supposed to be released around the same time as the focus, but Nokia couldn't pump out distribution to the states yet...its the trophy of the mango releases, late to the party but sold as brand new...

Again, I OWN A FOCUS S and a Lumia 900, so yes I know what I'm talking about, and this is my opinion.  THe Focus S's screen is worse than the Lumia 900's, both in clarity and color saturation.  The ClearBlack tech Nokia uses is just fantastic.  The Focus S is too plasticky to my liking.  When I bought it, yes I liked it over my original Focus.  The Lumia 900 is heavier, but it's not a huge difference.  Plus, the Lumia 900 just feels great in the hand.  I also didn't like the fact Samsung just regurgitated the Galaxy hardware design, and didn't come up with something original or to separate it from the Slutdroid army.

So basically you weren't a fan of the focus s when you bought it then? Plasticky, same android design, color saturation, so then you were looking for something different to begin with. Look, im glad you love your lumia but no need to bash the focus s when it just isn't your cup o tea. To me, the focus s feels much better in my hand with its rounded corners, its so thin and lite, its a dream to carry in a pocket, and its been uber reliable and a workhorse. I understand its your opinion but that means i can also have mine, and mine is that the lumia is a mild upgrade for those looking for lte, but that's it. Otherwise, they are the same phone, with only personal preference separating the two...

No, I did like the Focus S at first, knowing full well I would be getting the Lumia 900 when it was released.  When I first got the Focus S, I loved the screen.  When I went to the local AT&T store, I compared them, and could immediately tell the Lumia was better designed.  To reciprocate, I'm glad you like your Focus S, but I wouldn't recommend it over the Lumia to anyone.  The screen alone is evidence enough Samsung can't design a good or decent phone compared to the Lumia series.
 
"mine is that the lumia is a mild upgrade for those looking for lte, but that's it"
That's your opinion, and it couldn't be more wrong.  But yeah, you're going to reply "nuh, uh. The Focus S is better, blah, blah, blah."  And I'll reply with "you're opinion is dumb, blah, blah, blah."  We can go around in circles.  You love the Focus S.  I like the Focus S, and believe the Lumia 900 is light years better.  I'll leave it at that.

Lol, of course they knew, why are you surprised?!
 
They needed SOMETHING on the market right away, and they new W8 based system would not be ready for two more years.

If it that does not bother you then fine, please enjoy your EOL-ed phone. But do not take away the people their right to express their opinions. Everybody is entitled to have one.

You keep using phrases that I don't think you know the meaning of. The term "EOL" does not apply to this situation as current devices: #1. are still being manufacturered and sold & #2. will receive an update within (hopefully) the next 6 months.
 
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you just seem to always be using words wrong.

Yes, an update that will not make it possible to run the WP8 apps. Hence, your device is EOL. Please be real, what are you working for Microsoft?

What are you working for apple ,  Probly nto cause you dotn know what EOL means :)
EOL = End of life  = When a OEM stops producing phones = clearly not whats happening here.
Its like saying all the none Upgradedble Android Phoens are EOL,  yet they are the once that sale the most and get manifacturted the most by OEMs.....
the word your looking for is Obsolete but it isnt cause it still works...
 
 

uh? Windows Phone 8 rumors about it being closer to Windows 8 like NT kernel, its been for like a YEAR. (or well, since last year before nokia released nokia lumia 900)
it was YOUR choice to get a lumia 900 knowing there would be a new version with SO MANY changes. it would have been nice if 7.5 got 8. but it wont happen deal with it because YOU KNEW ABOUT IT, and you STILL BOUGHT IT. if you wanted a wp8, buying a 7.5 well... then its your own fault. also the phone will not stop working, do you buy it and you like it? then, thats good because nothing will change (7.8 a little) how it works now.

Rumors are rumors, FYI.  What I expected was a pared down WP8 for the Lumia phones, not a complete fragmentation.  Yes, it was MY choice to buy a new phone because my previous two Windows Phone 7 phones sucked and died.  Nokia has already had to replace two faulty Lumia 900's that I've owned (smartphone beta test is over?). Yes, I'm going to deal with this - by leaving the platform for good.  I'm sure I won't be alone and it's Microsoft that will need to deal with it in the end, followed by the remaining userbase such as yourself.  If I were to stay with WP7.8 until April 2014, you can be sure more will have changed than what you're leading on...such as apps that are truly backgrounded.  And no, I'm NOT happy with the way things currently work and could spend all day explaining where things have been half assed.

Good, don't let the door hit you on the way out ;)
* Oh you edited out the "im leaving" flounce LOL good for you.

Seriosuly, everyone knew an update was imminent.
(Unless you lived under a rock)
I didn't get a Lumia 800 or 900 - even though I wanted one - as I wanted to wait for the WP8 announcement, well now they made it.
 
The Lumia 800 and 900 will be a great phone with 7.8 on it for a long time.
(So you will get  paired down v8, it will be called 7.8 you numpty :) )
Still better than any pikey Android device in my opinion, or Blackberry. So why hate?
Just wait for another few months a get a shiney WP8 phones in all its beauty.
This is was technology ownership is like, we upgrade in cycles. Sometimes hardware makes us miss an upgrade. Better get used to it, every platform PC, Console, Phones, iPads, Tablets all have this link of hardware to software issue.
So much childish hate, for a phone :) It will still make phone calls, still browse the web and thats still what most people "need" to do. Having the latest "version" is just fashion. Anyway good luck on your next platform.

Really? The term "End of life" for devices literally means manufacturing stops and no more devices will be created. This has nothing to do MS, running apps or the price of tea in China; it's simply a manufacturing term.
 
Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

This is a non story, people need to buy phones today with the understanding they are a feature set for TODAY, not an upgrade path for the future. Be happy with what you have today, not upset with what you might not have in the future. Although, this was about as stupid as Nokia telling the world plan B. Something are just better left unsaid. Parallel development is not an uncommon practice.

Sure, this would not be a problem if WP was working as it should. But it's not and there are too many open issues. So please stop with the fanboyism.
 
People have the right to complain. If Microsoft had been honest with their users and said from the start "this is what you get and you will NOT get WP8" then you would be right. But they did not. They knew and didn't say anything, because they knew that nobody would buy the phones. So basically, they lied to us.

Omg you are a MORON if they told us about wp8 nobody would buy wp7 and how the f##k would have they made money,im glad they came our w wp7 it has been a pleasure using it for 2 years now, and if they came out w wp8 first there wouldn't be thing big hoopla about it because nobody would know about it as much they do now I agree w Microsoft 100% w what they are doing and have been doing, tour just an annoying cry baby

Dude seriously you complain too much,we haven't heard anything about 7.8 yet...u don't know what's in wp8!! what's up with all the be HONEST....no body does that..

You're complaining too much. 7.8 is not yet fully detailed for you to bash around now. When 7.8 is released, WP8 would only start its adoption. I think by then there would still be 6 months of life of the current WP7 before needing to switch to WP8.

Btw, I hope you stick to WP. I get it you don't like lying people. This is probably the least lying platform available at the moment.

Oh MR Brusn pls f off to Engadget with all the other d1ck heads.
No one lied, Microsoft did not announce anything until last month.
They have made a new OS for a new target platform, simple.
 
WP 7 device will get 7.8.
So whats the problem? Its much cleaner/ clearer than Apple or Android or Blackberry.
Blackberry orphan hardware all the time.
Android, you're left to your carrier or manufcaturer (I Will not get another Android phone for this reason alone, let along privacy issues, and the whole ugliness of Android)
Apple _never_ tell anyone their intention until announcement day. ITs a consumer focused company.

Microsoft are streets out ahead in terms of its postion on both new and current devices.
I've been much better served by Microsoft than any other platform.

So you are also okay if with the introduction of Windows 8 all software (application) development for Windows 7 is stopped and you are stuck with an desktop where non of the software can run on? Even worse, the software you run now will not receive any bugfixes or updates? In my opinion your dekstop then has become useless. 

You really don't know how this stuff works do you?  Traditional desktop software development is not going to suddenly stop once Windows 8 is released.  In fact, Windows 8 still has a desktop for such software and your current software will be updated in the same manner as before.  The desktop does not become useless, it becomes even more powerful and robust with a whole new market of applications, new features and improvements, and the best cloud back-end services (opinion).
 
Same for Windows Phone 7 and 8.  When WP8 drops, there are still going to be a huge amount of 7.x users for some time before WP8 surpasses it, hopefully not too long though.  The point is, most developers will continue to target their apps for 7.x and they will run fine for WP8 users.

You are comparing apples and oranges. The difference is that Windows 7 is a complete system, with all features and APIs that a modern system should have. WP7 is not. So you can't compare those.

I wasn't comparing Windows to Windows Phone, I was merely saying development for those OSs will jot just stop because of the next version. Eventually yes, more quickly with WP7, but not right off the bat.

If Windows 7 is a complete system as you say, then there wouldn't be a need for Windows 8, would there? Looks like you just shot your own foot there.

Hey, this is not car or TV. Which you buy by expecting it just to do its main goals. Smartphones are like computers! You buying it thinking that it will be future proof. If you need just phone, buy cheep NOKIA with hard keys and 1.5" display and use it. But we are talking about SMART phones. Everyone who bought WP7 in this year expected them to be upgraded to WP8, because currently WP7 is useless OS in the whole mobile world.  NOKIA knew it, MS knew it. They just sold phones, took money and said - f$%ck off, we will sell you new phones.
Who now can guarantee that next phones will receive significant updates? No one.

You can all continue to complain about a future that you don't even know will happen, or, you can just enjoy your phone now. If you don't, then leave the platform, easy as that. I recommend enjoying what you have, it feels better at the end of the day.

I will leave the platform...unfortunately, that's going to cost a lot of money to do.  Which makes it even less likely that I'll ever be back.

Ha, this is exactly what the likes of you were saying before they announced that the wp7 phones will not be upgraded - we don't know yet wait and see. Ya, let's do this again, right? Beta-testers ;)

Hi Ray, welcome to WP Central - I see you just joined several hours ago.
Using "computers" and "future proof" in the same sentence doesn't make sense.   These days, smart phones ARE consumer electronics, and will likely have a refresh cycle of 18 months (funny, the same amount of time MS says they'll support WP8).
Frankly, with 7.8 coming this "Fall" that's going to be 2 years since WP7 devices first hit the market (Nov 2010).  
What's making this all such a "big deal" is the timing of WP8 relative to very large marketing push of the Lumia 900 back in April.   But WP7 will have been supported by MS for 2+ years when all is said and done.
And it's simply not true that "Everyone who bought WP7 in this year expected them to be upgraded to WP8" - there was so much press and forum debate about this that you'd have to have bought your lumia 900 with your eyes closed and ears plugged to not be aware.
And "currently WP7 is useless OS in the whole mobile world" - well ,that just makes you sound like a troll.
 
-C

If phones weren't subsidized on 2 year carrier contracts, this would be a reasonable mindset for purchasing new smartphones.  Microsoft's move here has caused me to lose faith in Windows Phone for good.

I work in development and it is quite normal that we'd start projects knowing that there are other projects that are going to replace the current one a couple of years later. Companies need a constant stream of products. If they don't then they'd fail.

The main problem is app's that for wp8 does not support wp 7. Marketplace for wp7 will not grow further after wp8. Thats all my mistake to buy a prototype phone from nokia. M$ is finished for me. Apple wait for me.

Why wrong? He's dead on, as far as i can tell. App development will grind to a halt for WP7.X after the release of WP8, if it hasn't already. There's no reason on earth to keep coding apps for WP7.X once WP8 is released. Who's going to waste their time coding apps and updates for a market that no longer grows?

The people who want to sell apps to several million users as opposed to zero users, that's who.
Just like most Android apps are written for compatibility with 2.2, until WP8 gains more share than WP7, devs would be foolish to code exclusively for it. Unless of course they're using native code or new hardware specific features.
In fact the WP7-to-Wp8  coding transition will be much easier to cope with as Android apps not only have to deal with OD compatibility issues, but hardware as well. Netflix and Instagram are perfect examples.

Windows Phone has at most 10 million users globally. That's a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket. In fact, that's as many users total as Android adds in about 11 days. And if you have to divide your time between a dead platform and a growing platform where your apps will be compatible with phones and tablets, are you really going to? No, of course not. You're going to code for W8/WP8. Because that is a rational expenditure of your effort. 
 

Yes, and how many WP8 users are there? As of general availability ZERO. Even then it will take some time to gather momentum. After that it will take more time for WP7 devices to exit the market.
So, and please correct my if you think I'm wrong, you think people who want to sell apps for money will immediately develop for zero users over 10 million? And after that feel that the equation : #ofWP8 devices + 10 million <  #ofWP8 devices alone?
Please do not EVER apply for a job in marketing or finance.

Think about it rationally in terms of resource allocation.
If you can be the first to the W8/WP8 market with an app, the potential payoff is massively higher than continuing to code for WP7.X. Allocating your assets (time) is a zero-sum game, so you have two options. You can code for a dead ecosystem with 10 million users, or you can be first to market in a market that has the chance to grow to 100 million+ very quickly. It seems like a pretty easy choice, doesn't it? Any expenditure of assests is a gamble, but this one seems quite good, doesn't it? If you have spare time, you might continue to code for WP7.X, but it seems like a pretty simple cost/benefit analysis to conclude that the payoff of working on W8/WP8 is much higher potentially than continuing to code for a dead, dwindling ecosystem, while the risks are about the same. 
PM me and I'll send you my real-life details, and let's make a bet. I bet that fewer than 5,000 new applications are released after W8/WP8 is released. How many do you wanna bet are released? 

Your info is false. People don't bet on false info. I bet that you don't even know which part of your info is false. That's what clueless ignorant means.

The point you seem to be missing is that on the phone you can code for both with no extra "asset allocation" and for the tablet/desktop with very little extra. Would it be worth an extra day for you to include 10 million potential sales? Maybe even two.
Read here & here for details on how to port.
Here's the real kicker. If you code for WP7 your app just runs on WP8 & extra work is required for W8.
If you code for WP8 you loose 10 million users and still have to re-work your app for W8.
Again, unless you're developing a native code game or using new hardware features, devs would be extreemly short sighted to coe for WP8 only.
If you're not coding in C++ (which most devs aren't) the XAML + C#(or VB method will be very similar whether you're targeting WP7/W8 or WP8/W8.
And I'll take your bet because if needed I can easily whip up 5000+ spam apps in under a year
:-)
 

"Thank you, I am so happy that there are still some intelligent people here."
 
There MrBurrrns - helped you properly locate your comment.

You're talking nonsense (sorry Mr Burns, you also fail again) see Robbcat's post below on WP7 development - it explains why you example is stupidity itself. Basically you can code once and target either version.

That's if you want to take advantage of the newer API's available to Compact WinRT in WP8.  WP7 apps will be supported in WP8, which Microsoft made a point to say numerous times at the Windows Phone Developer Summit.  Remember when they said that all of the existing apps will be recompiled "in the cloud" by Microsoft to be ready for WP8?  So, developers should have an interest to develop for both platforms, knowing that it's relatively easy to port it to Compact WinRT.

I knew someone was gonna say thay. Well lesson learned stay away from contracts if you can and if you want the latest. Everyone know that being on a contract often ends in dissapointment.

So what do you say to the people that bought a Lumia a month ago? Buy a new phone in 3 months? Maybe you do not mind throwing money out of the window, but not everybody is like you.

What to say to people who just bought a Lumia? A quick Bing search before purchasing the phone and you would have known WP8 was being released before the years out. You should really take responsibility for not being smarter consumers!

It is perfectly reasonable to have expected WP8 to run on phones that are less than a year old.  Why do you think Microsoft waited until June to announce this?

Will their Lumia's stop working all of a sudden when WP8 and WP7.8 is released? Anyone with interest makes research before buying. The other ones don't care as much or at all about updates they buy the phone because they like what came with it.
 
I bought a Lumia 2 months ago. Still happy with it.

Lumia owners will also be getting a number of exclusive apps and games from Nokia in the coming months. Something that no one seems to mention when they are speaking on behalf of us "poor" Lumia users.

stop acting like your phone is Obsolete , its not ,

so it wont get some new features and some new apps ,

  1. - does it still use e-mails?
  2. - make phone calls?
  3. - tweet?
  4. -use facebook?
  5. -have  contacts?
  6. - have maps / GPS?
  7. - can you still txt?
  8. - can you still get your fav news
  9. - can you still surf the WEB
  10. - can you STFU......

 
 
 
 
 

I had no idea that the phones were going to suddenly stop working as soon as WP8 is released.  I would have thought that they'd still have the product that they walked out of the store with and be happy with it, just like the 90% of Android users who never upgrade the OS.

I'd say when your contract is up for renewal, get a new WP8 phone.
Oh, and BTW, if you care about getting updates quicker, get the shortest contract you can.
 
I knew WP8 was coming, didn't "upgrade" when my current contract ran out.
I bought a Lumia 710 for 120 UK pounds, and using that until WP8 devices come out.

Either do your research, or wait. Simple choice. No one fault but your own, certainly not Microsofts as you keep insinuating.
 
Are you really this thick in the head Burns?

exCtly, and then people complain for their free phone! freeeeeee. I bought my phone for 100, happy to use it 18months and then upgrade to win8. I am less concerned about update to win8 and more about game saves to transfer to my next phone. :s

It would seem that all these people who are upset are so broke they can't afford to buy a phone off contract. Go to college, get a real job, and you can fulfill your mobile tech wishes. Or find a hobby that is less expensive than mobile tech. I bought a lumia 900 in april but i have the $$ to be a content mobile tech enthusiast.

They are always working on the next OS in parallel with to be released system and they are planning the release after that. All OS's do this. Sometimes you have to make difficult decisions for the future. See Apple when they switched to OS 10 and switched hardware. These are not last minute decisions. Do you want to be stuck with Windows CE forever?

It's not that simple. The problem is that there was (and still is) a big fight going on between the different MS divisions. At some point Sinosky decided that his division 'can also do mobile and phones' and at the end he got the OK from Ballmer. However that pissed off most people in the Windows Phone team as they had their own roadmap which was simply thrown away after the Sinosky takeover. That's why about 2/3 of the Windows Phone team just quit their jobs (remember all the news here about the resigns of the WP managers? Yea...) as they didn't want to work with Sinosky who ignored everything these guys had achieved with the WP7 design. Well at the end Sinosky won, but he doesn't want to have anything to do with the old ideas. That's why there won't be any WP8 for current devices as that doesn't fit into his personal agenda. Though the former WP team was gently allowed to develop a 7.8 update that at least includes some new stuff. However if WP8 or Win8 flops then Ballmer for sure wouldn't backup Sinosky anymore as his own job would be in danger then. This might result again in big changes and shifts.

Now this is an interesting post. Thanks for the inside baseball. I've read things about workers being unhappy with SInosky somewhere else before as well.

First of all it's Sinofsky. Secondly, get used to him, he'll be your new CEO within 5 years.
Oh, and please explain how running a new kernel on old hardware doesn't fit in to his "personal agenda". Does he have a bias just against phones? Because I seem to be running his flagship product on a Pentimum D 1.8gHz machine just fine.

As I wrote it's all about personal agendas here. There are many people that are very unhappy with recent decisions and they all have a story to tell and will tell it. Then there are business partners that are very pissed with recent decisions especially as they were presented a roadmap when they signed a special deal with MS. They then started to develop phones/products in regard of that specific roadmap. Some of these phones even made it to market and, oh wonder, the whole roadmap was thrown over. These people are very pissed at the moment. To make it short: there will be more fights being fought and it won't be in private anymore.

I think timing is the suspect here. Having a huge marketing campaign around a phone and then kill its development path 3 months later is ridiculous. It would matter less if we weren't in the world of contracts and lock-in, but we are. No one expects a phone to work forever, and I've been really happy with the WIndows Phone OS and love my Titan II, but knowing that WP8 apps likely won't work on WP7 is really irritating given the newness and the big marketing push.

I really think this being blown out of proportion. The only apps that won't be compatible will be the native code ones as I understand it. This means that 99.9% of the apps for the next year or so will work. You technically won't have 8, but you will probably not notice until your contract is up.

No, it's not just apps with native code. There will be a whole bunch of new APIs that WP8 developers can use that will not be available on WP7. So you can be sure that you will notice. And very soon.

Phones that work today will continue to work tomorrow.
Anybody upset that their phone wasn't 100% future proof is demanding the impossible. Its not like there won't be a market to sell WP7 phones and recover some cost to upgrade to WP8 if that's what's important to you.  

Yeah, you tell them! How dare they buy a $700 device and expect it to last for at least a couple of years without having to run apps that will not be upgradeable for a year. Cannot buy a new $700 every year? MS doesn't care about you then.

I think it's safe to say that most people who don't read tech blogs couldn't care less about their phones being upgraded as long as they still work fine. If that wasn't true, Google would have been out of business a long time ago with android.

I just bought a Lumia 900. I perfectly know it will not be upgradeable to wp8, and so ?
It is amazing, fast and fluid.
When wp8 will come in october, I will pass my 900 to some friend of mine and will buy one. Where's the problem ?

-1. It's your choice to be giving MS money every time they ask for it and ditch their existing customers.

Lol, iOS didn't nail it. I have an iPhone 2g laying around thats running iOS 3.2 and thats as high as Apple will let it go. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, when software will not run on hardware exactly as intended, it should not be put on there. Just sayin that this is how all software works, Apple isn't excempt.

Sorry, but they did "nail it". The 2G was over three years old when iOS4 was released. The iPhone 4 was out by then. How many people would think that full support for a device that's one year out of contract ins't nailing it?

3G was released July 2008. Support stopped after iOS 4.2.1 in November 2010. Which carried it to the iOS5 release in 2011 You're looking at 3 years & 3 months. Now please stop making me defend Apple as it makes my throw up in my mouth a little bit.

iOS 4.2.1 for the 3G only had limited features for the 3G compared to the 3GS and shoddy performance. IMO, that's not really nailing it.

Sure....the latest ios will run on older iPhone. My wife got an iPhone 4 & she is holding off to get the iPhone 5. Each ios upgrade made her iPhone 4 more & more sluggisher. Now to a point it freezes on her 4-5 time a day. Is this what u rather have?

It's not the same as Android. Even if you' re stuck at Android 2.3 and you won't get any updates. You still will be able to download new apps. New apps are still being developed for Android 2.3. Because of the kernell shift in WP8, as soon as the WP8 SDK comes out, WP7 app developement stops and the phone becames EOL... I will say it again, EOL. This has nothing to do with getting updates but with developement.

Why would people who don't need WP8 APIs develop WP8 apps? It makes sense to continue developing WP7 apps while there are WP7 devices out there to cover widest customer base.

This doesn't make sense. WP8 apps are not directly portable to Windows 8 nor Xbox and XNA works on WP7, WP8, desktop Windows (whatever version) and Xbox. While we have not seen the actual SDK from the presentation I am under the impression that the UI framework itself will not change in WP8, nor will most of the old APIs.

WP8 apps will be using different APIs. For WP8 apps, you use WinRT + DirectX where in WP7 apps, you use Silverlight + XNA. However WP8 devices can still run WP7 apps. Because Silverlight and the WinRT Metro UI system is very similar, porting Silverlight WP7 apps to WP8 will be quite simple. However porting WP7 XNA apps to DirectX on WP8 will take more time. But since WP8 devices can run existing WP7 apps, there is no need to port them unless you want to use the new APIs or require access to hardware that WP7 phones do not have.

WinRT is only backend API and only a subset will be in WP8. Where did you get the info that WP8 will use Windows 8 XAML system? If you are correct it would make sense for devs to abandon WP7 but I did not hear/read any such announcement and for some reason I was left with the impression that this is not the case.
 
The issue with DirectX is of course true but I doubt devs would just switch from XNA do DirectX. XNA devs don't want to develop in native code because it is so different. For example ARMED! (best mobile game ever!) devs went for MonoGame (implementation of XNA APIs that also runs on iOS) instead of DirectX for their Windows 8 port. I guess MS will just trade one pack of game devs for another.

Wrong. WP 7.x development will continue until WP 8 approaches critical mass (similar number of units as WP7). When the WP8 SDK hits there will be zero customers for months for WP8 apps and several million for WP7. Remember, if you code for WP7, you're also coding for WP8. So  there will be a lot of crossover in the beginning.
This is of course with the exception of native code games and NFC apps and a few other scenarios, but if MS brings a few of the new features (the new TellMe API for one), I can see no reason to code for WP8 exclusively out of the box. 
Also, there a lot of apps for older Andriod phones that let you know "your phone is not compatible". Just like WP you can code for Froyo and run on Jellybean, but the other way around is a lot tougher. And with 2.3.3 still holding over 60% of the userbase, that's what most devs are doing.
 
So in essence it's very much like Android.

thank you. The trolls are scarying people in here. There will be apps for the phones after win8 is released, and you explained why. I hope everyone reads this

It's not the same but it's very similar. New apps are being developed for 2.3 that work with 4.0 just like new apps will be developed for WP7 since WP7 apps will work on WP8.
 
Also, there are A LOT of new apps that you can't download on 2.3, 2 big ones being Chrome & native Firefox.
 
Also the term EOL has nothing to do with development.

New apps that are developed for WP8 will be backwards compatible with WP7 EXCEPT where the new app needs to access new hardware that isn't available in WP7x anyway! No they dont have to be, but which dev is going to needlessly cut out a portion of his customers unless he has to? I am so sick of repeating this I shall copy and paste into bloody word!

No its forward compatible, not backwards compatible. Only apps that target WP7 will run on WP7 and WP8. WP8 apps uses a different API that does not exist on WP7 so its not about the hardware only. Its up to the developers choice. For me I still have two WP7 projects in progress and unless I see any significant reason why my applications or games require WP8, I would continue with WP7 because that gives me a wider market. Plus I have already invested time and money in WP7 games engines and libraries that would not work in WP8.

So as soon as WP8 SDK is released and still new WP7 apps continues to appear on the Marketplace, will you come back and admit that you are a liar?

The reason iOS has "nailed it" is exactly the reason Windows Phone is not likely to have this problem in the forseeable future. iOS is based on the OSX kernel just as WP8 will be based on the the Windows 8 (NT) kernel. Those core technologies evolve very slowly over time,
That said I'm still on the fence about MS's upgrade path (or lack thereof). On the one hand, I would bet dollars-to-doughnuts WP8 could run on single-core ARM processors and feel MS didn't want to invest the time to optimize the OS for so few devices. On the other, WP's strongest point is the sense of speed & fluidity you get when using it. If that would be compromised with the new OS I can why they passed us over. WP8 is already Android-like enough with it's hideous new start screen to have it start lagging now. Add to that the risk of non computer-savvy users "bricking" their devices with a complete re-flash and I can see why they skipped WP 7.x devices.
Here's to hoping 7.8 adds more than just the start screen (read XBox music, new speech APIs, nokia turn-by-turn, etc) as Devs will code apps for 7.x until WP8 hits critical mass.

The start screen customisation isn't compulsory.... If you don't like it, keep it the same layout for 7.5

Let's not start this discussion again, because it IS compulsory. There is NO way to keep the same layout as the resizing of the tiles subtracts a row vertically.
 
 

It hasn't even been released, so you don't have a clue what is and isn't compulsory. Maybe you'll be able to switch the side gutter on & off. We'll find out soon enough.

Damn Microsoft.....have I been cursed for using your smartphones? First WM 6.5.3 screwed me then WP 7 screwed me again, now what shows that WP 8 wont screw me again? No motivation to buy a WP anymore...feel sad about all these.....hmmm...smh.

The difference is that WM 6.5 was burnt to the ground (all functionality and apps cast aside in WP7) while WP8 is more of an evolution bringing everything from WP7 with it.

"It is true that this is a generational shift -- that is a rare occurrence, but it's something we don't expect to have happen again in the foreseeable future because of the headspace that the new architecture gives us."

I dont understand why this is such a big topic? Tech heads love to jump on this like my phone is suddenly going to stop working and become obsolete . Everything that the phone does now, it will still do., and to be honest, smartphones do alot and the core of what we use it for. Since when are we entitled to free upgrades? Enjoy your Lumia and Titan for what it is, great phones, works great. That's what matter. Enjoy it today because you will never be happy if your always looking for the "next thing". Hell with that mentality, I should get pissed when the auto makers produce a new body style the following year , right after I just bought the latest one. We except this, and sometimes doing your research you know when the next body style comes out. Its innovation. Enjoy what you got. It won't be obselete in 18 months.

Microsoft should've be more supportive of 7.x, or at least more upfront about its support - i.e. assuring people that features of WP8 not-reliant on hardware or NT will be on offer in 7.8. Sorry, but as much as I like MS, the idea of abandoning your only userbase is not a good strategy. Firstly, you have absolutely no guarantee that WP8 will do well despite how well it may perform or the nice features it may offer...

WP7 in Fall 2010 was every bit up there - if not ahead - of its Froyo and Gingerbread counterparts, yet we saw where the market went (much to the probable surprise of some OEMs too). Nokia with all of its 'all-in' support' managed to help MS gain .1% marketshare, and that too with the help of Samsung and HTC no less... Does this mean Nokia phones failed to sell? No, they sold well, but they didn't slam through the market enough to make a real difference. Now you're going to go for zero % share again, and deal with a mixed marketshare change (with users like me switching to WP8, or other platforms) again?

There is a way out of this, and that is to make 7.x a parallel strategy for lower-end handsets while 8.x for high-end super/ultra/Optimus Prime phones. What this means is that MS supports 7.x in as far as improving the browser, replacing Zune with Xbox Music+Videos, more robust integration with social services, etc. In addition, pull 7.x prices to $150-$250, even if it means just producing Lumia 710/Focus 2/Radar like devices, and flood those in the emerging markets as real feature phone replacements. Flood them hard. This way you will assure us that app development (especially in emerging markets) will continue for 7.x phones, and that big vendors (e.g. news agencies) will support both 7.x and 8.x given the expansiveness of the market. 

 

Yes, they knew.  The right thing to do for people adopting the platform recently (900, Focus S, etc) is to offer a huge upgrade discount when WP8 comes out.   It would paint MS in a much better light saying "Hey, sorry about that, look we'll help you get the latest since the current latest wasn't actually the latest at all..." :P

This is mainly an issue for the folks who jumped on the Mango bandwagon. I *do* feel badly for them.
For first-gen adopters in the U.S. like myself, this barely raises an eyebrow. My 2-year contract will expire not long after WP8 is rolled out. From a purely selfish perspective, there's nothing at all to be concerned about.

i actually see this as a good thing that they expected this from the get-go. Better then 2-years in and they going "oops oh well".

Where is this EOL announcement people are be talking about? 7.8 has been announced, and I think I remember OTA update functionality being included there. Microsoft must know they have to make this transition as smooth as possible to keep what they have gained, and to me it seems they are planning continued support for current devices for some time to come.

You know trolls will be trolls. In fact we have people announcing EOL for planet Earth this year. So possibly we will all be obsolete by next year. Then people will start complaining in heaven why GOD did not inform us earlier even though he knows we're about be obliterated.

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