From the Forums: Apollo will make previous generations obsolete?

Welcome to the first From the Forums for this current week. In this series, we bring you the latest and greatest threads from the Windows Phone Central community forums. If you've been hiding under a rock for the past couple of days then this is the perfect opportunity to get back up-to-date with everything that's being discussed.

It's been a busy weekend over on our forums, which isn't unusual at all. To start us off we have thecaringkind, who published an in-depth post detailing his opinion on articles he has read on the web.

"I am amazed by the sheer amount of folks who claim to have love for WP castigating the operating system and basically stating that its time is done. Nokia desperately wants to hold on to the early Lumia adopters so they smartly will provide continued updates and support for the platform for the next 18 months after Apollo's release. During that time, I am quite sure that all of those folks like myself who love WP now are not suddenly going to lose their minds and decide that what they have now is crap just because something a little newer is available."

We can certainly agree with points made in the "WP8 will make older WP's obsolete...REALLY?!" thread, and thecaringkid has received a fair number of 'likes' and 'thanks' from other members displaying support. While Windows Phone 7.x certainly isn't perfect, or anywhere close, it's fully functional and is much more efficient than competitor platforms - as shown in results from both Smoked by Windows Phone and Dare to Live challenges.

Do you believe Windows Phone 8 will make previous generation hardware and Windows Phone 7.x obsolete, or are you content with the functional use of current devices?

Why some just can't wait for Windows Phone 8

Forum member thecaringkind is back again with our second hot thread, "Why I didn't wait for WP8". The post covers the purchase of a cyan Nokia Lumia 900 with Windows Phone 7.8 just around the corner. Instead of waiting for Apollo and hardware that's pumped out of supporting OEM factories, thecaringkind decided to get in early. Why?

"I sit here thinking of the spanking new Cyan Nokia Lumia 900 being set aside for delivery to me by the middle of next week and I cannot help but to smile. I was able to come up with a masterstroke of a plan to break free from my current carrier, (Verizon), so that I can finally be re-united with the best mobile phone operating system on the planet today."

That's the excitement and attitude we like to read about, especially when negativity surrounding the no-Apollo-upgrade is thrown out the window. If you're looking at purchasing a Windows Phone, will you be looking at Apollo, or is Windows Phone 7.x enough for your needs? Be sure to head on over to the thread to voice your opinion.

Poll: Are you getting Surface? MS Surface that is.

With the Microsoft Surface announced and building hype, not to mention Windows 8 on the horizon, there's a fairly large question that needs to be answered - are you getting one? 12Danny123 created a poll on our forums asking exactly that, "Are you getting a MS surface or any other W8 tablet or laptop?".

If you're waiting for the Surface, going with another Windows 8 tablet, or are simply planning to purchase a desktop / laptop? We can reveal that a large majority of votes are going to the Surface. Will it live up to the hype though?

Rich Edmonds

Rich Edmonds is a word conjurer at Windows Central, covering everything related to Windows, gaming, and hardware. He's been involved in technology for more than a decade and knows a thing or two about the magic inside a device chassis. You can follow him over on Twitter at @RichEdmonds.

83 Comments

I agree Nokia is the only OEM doing there part. It's sad I have a AT&T HTC Titan and my keyboard disappeared over 5 times writing this... When will they get it we the early adaptors are the ones who they should keep happy it's just bad business not to...
Blame AT&T not HTC.
I do blame AT&T. But I also blame Microsoft and the OEMs for being complacent and not putting more pressure on the carriers to push through bug fixes that make Microsoft and OEMs look bad. The average customer isn't going to blame AT&T for a disappearing keyboard, they're going to blame Windows Phone or the phone maker. But it's AT&T's fault that most Windows Phone customers in the US are still experiencing it 10 months later. So without Microsoft and the OEMs acting more aggressively to get updates out to customers, why would AT&T care? The carriers are just content watching you wait out two years, then eagerly come into the store to replace your buggy phone. Since Microsoft wasn't smart/aggressive enough to get an Apple-like agreement where only the OS/hardware maker(s) dictate when updates go out, Microsoft should have at least kept the "Where Is My Update?" page. Since that page disappeared, Mango (7720) is the only update AT&T has delivered. So clearly the carriers are not any more motivated to do their part when they aren't being humiliated into cooperating. Microsoft should have made that page more prominent and advertised it to completely embarrass the carriers into approving the updates in a timely manner.
Come on, it's not like HTC is dying to push out updates for its phones like Nokia is. At least Nokia is working with AT&T to get Tango delivered soon. Other OEMs seem like they couldn't care less.
HTC does need to fox their Connections App for the Titan II too. It doesn't work at all and it's been months...
HTC have already pushed out numerous updates for all of their phones. Nokia is playing catch-up
No you should blame HTC, I have a gen 1 samsung focus, have not had the disappearing keyboard issue even once and have owned it since launch.

Don't get me wrong though, ATT sucks for not delivering updates effectively, especially when you consider that they are (supposed to be) the biggest carrier partner for the platform.

Over the air updates is not going to solve the issue of ATT not delivering updates either, hopefully I am wrong here but reading over the air updates all that means is that you won't have to plug in for updates on wp8 correct?
The blame is squarely on the shoulders of HTC. The HTC arrive and its counterpart over at Verizon also have the keyboard issue. Fault HTC not att
The Verizon HTC Trophy already got the 8107 Update that has fixed the disappearing keyboard issue. We are now awaiting Tango, and in the future WP7.8.
Don't feel too bad. My 900 has tango & still has the disappearing keyboard. Slightly less, but still there.
My keyboard on my HD7 has not disappeared at all since 8107.
I may not get windows phone 8 for my lumia but my new laptop will ;)
I get 7.8 for my impatience..till next year Nokia and please don't disappoint us again.
Again? When did Nokia disappoint you? They made great phones and its up to you to buy it, you guys blaming them for making better phones with better specs? Sounds stupid to me, Lumia 900 is a great phone!
+1
The 900 is okay, at best. My HTC Radar still outperforms my 900, in all aspects. Sad but true.
I love my HTC Radar with tango, trying out the Titan in a weeks times
All aspects... Really, you mean except when it comes to the screen, phone durability and looks right. And although the camera is nothing especial on the lumia, it still is slightly better than the radars
I love my lumia, I just think it was way too soon for it to be a legacy device. I would expect that from Motorola or HTC. Either way I'm w Nokia and wp platform.
I still have no idea why comments are sometimes directed to companies which, obviously, aren't this site.
Because Nokia visits this site often.
I have the Lumia 900 and used the upgrade available on my dad's line (he didn't need/want a new phone anyway)--and my line is now due for an upgrade (which I will surely use to get a Windows Phone 8 device sometime next year or when the second run of WP8 devices come out). However, I imagine I would be feeling a little dissapointed if I was stuck with my Lumia 900 for two more years and "only" get 7.8, even with Nokia's extremely dedicated support.
In terms of getting a Surface, I've already begun to save up money for one :)
Firefox OS, Amazon OS, Android, iOS (older gen). A huge battle in the low end market is developing WP7.8 will enter that war.
Being a windows 7 user since 2010, i can say I AM PROUD of it..... Has never had a phone this great. Yes indeed, I was dissapointed when microsoft annouced that we are not getting APOLLO, but that does not make me feel no way. I am still in love with my wp7. And hopefully updates be available for them, for now i am glad we will have the apollo look.
As a microsoft user, i can say thank you Microsoft!!
My two year contract is going to expire at the end of the year just in time for the new WP8. As far as not being able to upgrade my old phone to WP8 but 7.8. Well that's all about hardware. WP8 phones will have the hardware to support it. That's why the older phones will only upgrade to 7.8.
This is not completely valid reasoning. WP8 is a lot more than support for a few hardware features. It adds a lot of software features and APIs (WinRT). WinRT is going to overtake silverlight the moment Windows 8 hits the shelves. Everyone will focus on that and stop developing for WP7/Silverlight because it's small marketshare has already peaked. WP7.X phones are obsolete. If you are happy with the apps available now and are fine without ever getting any more new ones, then WP7.X will be fine.
A lot of people have assumed that the existing base of WP7 phones will keep developers supporting both platforms but I think they miss your WinRT point. By targeting WinRT developers get the WP8 and the new Metro Tablet/Desktop markets - the WinRT installed base is going to blow past the installed base of WP7 within a couple of weeks of launch.
WP8 has a zero installed base. WP7 has 7 million just on Nokia. Why would you develop for zero unless your app requires the new features why WP7 apps will run on WP8? You don't want access to 10 million users?
By this time next year (or sooner) the only apps that will be made for wp7.8 will be useless junk apps. All the good stuff will be exclusively for wp8 & up. And then when wp9 is available, we'll all be having this same argument. Because if Microsoft's track record is any indication we'll be left out again, unless you upgrade again.
How's that any different than what happens on other platforms? People make it sound like its only Microsoft and yet Apple is exactly the same. I didn't upgrade my iPod touch because ios 4 is too slow on it and now almost any app I try to download fails stating I need ios 4.
This is incorrect MS said that this won't happen again
WinRT gets you (with very little effort) WP8 and Windows 8 Metro - this will rapidly eclipse the handful of WP7 users. The WP7 platform is dead as a target for most commercial developers.
I think you're underestimating what WinRT brings to the table in terms of APIs.

From a developer standpoint WP8 will be the first version of Windows Phone to offer feature parity (or better) with iOS. There's a significant difference in capabilities between what my app can offer on iOS & WP 7.x.

Certainly all the improvements I have slated for my app require WP8.
You should probably slow your roll, its not like people are going to snap their fingers and completely abandon their customer base, porting apps over for wp8 is going to take some time first of all and second of all any business that has customers will want to keep them happy for a while. If i had to guess and I am by no means a developer or an expert I would put money on the bigger companies supporting their wp 7.5/7.8 apps through to early to mid 2014 which will put them 2 years out from the lumia 900 launch.

My bet would be that at that point they will stop supporting but I am certain that by no means will they immediately cut off support for apps on wp 7 that would not make good business sense.
+1
You just have to love all the stupid reasons for hating WP7.8. How many of you are actually Devs. Firstly, there is a massive difference between WinRT and WP8, yes, it might be the same core, but some APIs will be completely different, some code might be able to be shared, but not all. Any developer that wants to look at Windows Phone as a platform to develop for should still consider WP7 as it has a user base. Win 8 has some, WP8 has none. It will take some time for WP8 to get the traction it needs to attract all developers across to the platform. I reckon most (myself included) will support both WP7 & WP8, it is the only sensible option. And the other thing I don't get, are there really any apps that are missing 'must haves' for WP7? The only one I can think of is Instagram. Things like draw something etc are all on their way.
As a dev, I can tell you that there a couple of apps missing from the wp7 ... Video editor ..actually there is none.
That's false. We've already been told MS had WP8 running on similar hardware to ours. The real reason is that OEM's and carriers don't want to go through all the hassle of updating us as it's risky (full system flash), costly for them to test and they'd much rather sell us shiny new phones.
Waiting to see what kind of wp8 device tmobile gets so I can upgrade. My main problem is the lack of accessories for HTC devices. I can not find a single durable case for my hd7 ( no store near me has the otterbox and not spending $50 for delivery), everything is iPhone, iPod, iPad and it enrages me to the point that I wish Apple would just go bankrupt.
EBay? The most delivery I've paid is $10. Heck even wpcentral sell cases!
Hehehe... Bankrupt Apple, now thats epicness right there.. Took me 6 months to get a case for my HTC Radar.. White phone with a black case, not appealing but will suffice..
I do believe WP8 makes WP7 obsolete. Developers are going to stop making apps for it! They won't want to bother with maintaining two versions of their app (Silverlight and WinRT) when they could just make one which will cover 99% (Windows 8 + WP8) of the market. Microsoft isn't going to add any new major features. Nokia may continue to release some exclusive apps for a few more months then that will be it.
Agreed. Whenever I post about my disappointment for your same reasons people blast me. I just don't think people understand that there will hardly be any new apps for this phone.. Im also getting tired of the lack of true multitasking. I hate that every app "reloads" everytime I open It from the start menu instead of pressing back.
We blasting you, you're just not being honest. There were plenty of article here on wpcentral and others sites that stated that 1st & 2nd hen WP devices would not get Apollo because the core was changing. Yet I like you couldn't wait and chose to get the L900. But I chose to accept the fact the I chose to upgrade despite all of the warning signs; but I still love my L900 & have no issues
I still love my phone. I just can't help to be a little sad. :(
WP7 isn't dead for quite a while yet. Both Silverlight and XNA will run on WP8 so if you develop for WP7 you will target both markets and initially WP8 will start from 0%. Also from the info available XNA will not change on WP8 so any new games written will still work on WP7. The compatibily between Windows 8 WinRT and WP8 WinRT is still unknown but it appears WP8 will use a phone specific version so apps are not cross compatible.
W8 and WP8 WinRT aren't identical, but they are awfully close. Microsoft sells about 1 million OS licenses a day - even if W8 is a Vista sized flop the installed base will eclipse WP7 in a matter of weeks. Any significant WP7 developement will be history.
MS has guaranteed continued app development and updates for at least 18 months,why can't you understand that?
Eventually yes of course, why is everyone surprised?
I recently purchased a Lumia 710 and I dont feel burned at all. Electronics all have a lifecycle and I unfortunately came in at the end of it. Is that Microsoft's fault? No. That's just how life goes. The 710 is a stunningly good phone for the price and when I can I'll get a WP8. But I'm not gonna get all up in arms in the meantime.
I love my Focus, and with no phone with micro SD support til Apollo there's been no compelling reason to upgrade in the meantime. Samsung's mixed bag of apps is a respectable investment, and as far as v7.x goes, they nailed this phone.
I will be getting a Surface with Windows 8 Pro not RT. Not sure yet about updating my HTC Trophy on Verizon. I will have to see if Verizon has more this this phone available. Plus my current plan in unlimited, if I change phones I might lose that option. >_
It depends whether you mean WP7 will be "obsolete as an OS" or "obsolete as a platform". As an OS, absolutely! After 7.8 it won't receive any major new features. The API is already frozen, so it will be out of date and therefore obsolete while WP8 powers ahead. As a platform, not yet... It is definitely a burning platform, but apps will continue to come out for a year or so. The main issue is that those apps will always be limited by the underlying OS API that physically won't allow them to do certain things. I'll be mainly developing for WP8 but not WP7, because WP7 will not allow me access to the functions that I need. But I also have a couple of apps that I could target to both platforms. Updates from Nokia will only patch issues, or add things that other phones already have i.e. tethering, flip to silence, other attentive phone features etc. They're not going to magically allow background VoIP or location services or any of the things we've been waiting for since Mango.
As a developer point of view, we will continue to support wp7.x till wp8 market will be big enough, and it will take time.
If the next version of the SDK will permit us to easily support both platforms reusing the same code and xaml, we will continue to develop new compatible apps, as it comes for free. Wp8 version will have more functions as it can count on NFC and other new framework capabilities, but it will available for all wps.
I bought my wife the Magenta 900 outright. She came from a BB9800. In comparison the 900 is AMAZING! It is so fast and fluid. The only two things she misses is the physical keyboard, and on a BB it is easier to make any song or sound clip your ring tones. Other than that it is an awesome phone. I say for the non power users, and for the people that do not care about latest and greatest then the 900 is a most excellent choice of hardware and beauty and elegance.
Check out some of the free ringtone apps. They make it easy and some have large libraries
The more I think about this obsolescence question, the more I'm beginning to agree with it. Not that the current Windows phones will no longer be functional as they are now but there won't be the energy, such as it is, to do more for the device. Microsoft is about to launch a brand new era in computing and a whole new ecosystem with Windows 8, Windows Phone 8, XBOX and Metro. Tons of adverting bucks are headed in THAT direction. Many of the API's developers are dying for as well as the functionality WE have all beat MS over the head to provide us the are expected to be on the Windows 8 platform. Not the existing Windows Phone 7.5 Mango/Tango/Bingo-Bango. I hope no one gets me wrong, I love my Lumia 900. But it has major limitations...especially where business is concerned. Medical apps, like Hippocrates, the stuff my wife uses ain't coming. Its an app she NEEDS more than she needs Windows Phone 7.5. (She has already put me on notice.) But it is NOT coming to Windows Phone 7.5. Developers area already clear that whatever they develop ahead of Windows Phone 8 will have a much shorter life than if they just go on and develop for Windows Phone 8. And they will. Hence, I'll enjoy my phone for now and hope Windows 8 has the chops.
Exactly my feelings with my 2010 HTC HD7
I planned my WP7 purchase strategically right when Mango hit so I will be ready to upgrade in April. Why all you whiners weren't also able to do that is a question you have to ask yourselves. The road map has been clear for awhile. The possibility of no in-place upgrade should have been accounted for by you. Quit griping and give it more thought next time.
I bought my lumia 900 and Titan used to get my feet wet. I like the O.S. , but it still has an unfinished feel to it compared to the other major players. The sudo multi-tasking, the inability to take a screen shot and weak API access. WP7 even with nokias and the budding bargin markets is finished. I hope microsoft will deliver a finished product this time and not let us be beta-testers.(again)
Planned obsolescence is not a problem for 99% of smartphones buyers, android is a clear example.
+1
I love my Lumia 900! I am planning to get a WP8 but there's no rush - let's wait a bit for the OEMs to bring out something really great. In the mean time, I'll continue to enjoy this beautiful device :-)
You people complain a lot. If someone new came here he/she would think that this place is full of women. You made a choice. You chose the phone. Yes you didn't know that the latest and greatest version of the OS would come so soon but needn't I remind you that MS or even Nokia never promised anything more than a great phone running mango or tango. Heck Nokia is even doing much more than most of you expected. I got the L800 and I love it. Before I bought it, I did some research (2 months of research to be exact). So I knew exactly the kinda device I was getting. I chose the 800 coz it meets all my requirements. Even if it didn't get tango I would still be happy coz from the beginning I chose a device that does all I wanted it to do. I buy all my devices cash and I keep them for 1 year or 1 year and a half before I change them. I will replace my L800 with a sweet WP8 device in March. So it'll be a couple of months after WP8 devices come out. This means that they'll be a bit cheaper. I will probably sell my L800 for a good price since a lot of people in my university seem to like it. I will also save to get a surface. Sorry to bring some positivity in this whole mess but I am a genuinely satisfied customer :) and I ain't no fanboy. My advice to you guys? Stop complaining and accusing MS/HTC/Nokia or even Samsung and take part of the blame. After all YOU went in the shop and bought the phone. Nokia or MS didn't put a gun on the back of your head. Don't act like mindless consumers. Yes they make their offerings look very attractive but think before you buy...
Full of women? What do you mean by that? What a way to ruin a great comment, don't be a sexist prick.
I'm jokingly using a stereotype. I know it can be offensive but I'm just trying to get a point across. No offence to the women in the audience :)
Using stereotypes is just as bad.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion.
It's not an opinion,its fact. I'm a sociology major.
And hope you're enjoying sociology lol
Calling something "bad" -- anything -- is clearly an opinion. Maybe you should become an English minor...
"I ain't no fanboy" = "I'm a fanboy"
"I ain't a fanboy" = "I'm not a fanboy"
:P
It looks like you got what I was trying to say...
Yeah, sorry I just find it amusing ;)
It reminds me of an episode of Hell's Kitchen where one of the guys flips out and screams "I ain't no b*tch" so he basically said "I'm a b*tch" - I laughed for days over that one :P I didn't mean any offense :)
How can you be sure since "ain't" isn't really a contraction of two words. Splitting hairs can be fun!
In the end we will all buy windows 8 phones, am I right clan? :)
As an eventuality, yes.. Defintly gettin a mid tier wp8 device
Dual core, no need for quad core
Conversations on WP Central are quite entertaining
+1
If you guys watched the Windows Phone Summit Q&A w Joe Belfiore , he says 7.8 is unfinished and they're trying to add more features ,but for now it is just the start screen they can announce. This makes me exciting, because everyone knows the rules of winning a crowd is underpromising and overdelivering. Can't wait :)
My word, is developing and improving the best thing about technology and gadgets in particular, why should any software or hardware company wait to improve their product...because they continue to sell their old....well not really old....product??? If they have new, better, and exciting ideas then I want to see them! Life is way too short to be moaning about the phone you was once showing off to your friends and family saying how good it is then as soon as you find out about apollo your saying how crap Microsoft is and how your phone is a legacy phone and old already.
I am looking forward to my perfectly timed upgrade in October and my mrs has already pencilled in a surface RT for me Xmas prezzie!!
HTC Titan updated.
Yeah my Titan was updated last night, it took a hell of a long time but all is good...My Titan is unlocked so not dependant on any providers and i live in the UK.
I am a windows fanboy, no doubt. Bought the Acer iconia w500 just so I could test, and ultimately install final win8pro on it. Then the big push for lumia 900 came with both MS and Nokia hinting it would be upgradeable to the new win8os. Gave my wife my iphone 4 and bought the lumia 900. A major disaster. I am on my third lumia 900 not upgradeable to win 8 and you CANNOT restore a lumia 900 through Zune like an iPhone through iTunes. Disaster!!!

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