Microsoft 'betrayed' Finland, says Finnish finance minister of layoffs

It's not Microsoft's fault. Microsoft didn't want the feature phone business anyway. Nokia made them buy it--they wouldn't just sell their smartphone division.

And another thing... Android wouldn't have saved Nokia. Just like it hasn't saved BlackBerry or HTC, etc.  I mean, seriously, no one was even paying attention to Nokia until they chose Windows Phone.   At least now, Nokia design will live on in the Lumia line at Microsoft.

That's such a valid point

you have idea the brand recognition Nokia holds in many countries, people started lokking at windows phones once Nokia entered, and Nokia would have succeeded with a full blown android for sure. Nokia X itself generated some initial interest which ofcourse died down due to hardware incapabilities.

Agreed. Imagine how many people would be using Nokia if they are android. I mean proper android, not like Nokia X. I don't wanna sound like I am being disrespectful to WP fans, but you guys need to know that Nokia have a lot of influence of what WP is today.

Agreed that Nokia has a lot of influence in many countries especially Europe and Africa. As regards Android though.... yukk.

You are so wrong. Ask the forum, ask people around you. How many have bought a WP because its a Nokia? (exception if you live in the US)

My wife ;)

I only own a WP phone because it's a Nokia.

That's amusing...I only have a Nokia because it runs WP. Nokia stopped being relevant in the US some time ago.

Well get a Samsung or HTC then. Nokia drew my attention to windows phone. And now I love both Nokia and windows phone.
But God forbid that I buy a samsung.

I did and not any NOKIA, the Lumia 930! I have not regretted a second. What a freakin' killer phone. It's Business and Fun!
 

As much as I love the fact they stayed with WP because at the end of the day its the combination of hw and sw that makes it such a great phone, I believe Nokia would have blown Samsung out of the water if they went down the Android route. Just think about it, Nokias trusted brand in the Android world. Almost everyone I know would have bought one.

*no one was paying any attention to Windows Phone until Nokia chose WP. Even Blackberry outsold WP 10:1.

"no one was even paying attention to Nokia until they chose Windows Phone." Looks like you were living under a rock then. Symbian was at top when Elop sent out the burning platform memo.  Yes, US public may not have been paying attention to Nokia, but rest of world was. 

I haven't see where they laid off anyone in Finland. What I read, they kept the Finnish sites and did heavy cutting in Asian areas of Nokia.

They announced 1100 jobs will be cut in Finland. The Oulu site with 500 employees will be shut down completely.

Well Microsoft is axing ~18,000 over the next year.  A large portion will be employees acquired in the buyout of Nokia's devices & services division.  This is not a betrayal.  I don't see how Microsoft would have EVER said "we won't lay anyone off once we acquire a section of your company".  Nobody says that in a business deal of this magnitude.  Too many redundant positions.  It's not like those employees are being laid off as we speak as many will continue to have a position for months or maybe a full year.  If you're working for either company, you'll find work somewhere else within that company or at another.  Both companies have employees that are sought after.

Why should anyone be obliged to keep those same exact employees who brought their company to the brink of bankruptcy?  Anyone who knew Nokia in the pre-Microsoft days will tell you they were arrogant and incompetent,  Hence the meltdown in the first place.

Nokia was nowhere near bankruptcy.

Lay offs were inevitable, if MS hadn't stepped in ALL Nokia employees were headed for the unemployment line.

I see what you did there microsoft

It's the death of Nokia, but it was dying before Microsoft bought the company... This could have been different for Nokia, if they'd chosen Android over Windows Phone. The CEO's are to blame, who made millions from the sale, now Nokia will soon just be a memory in the smartphone world. Much like Panasonic... "could have been a contender" I feel sorry for those Nokia employees, the truth is they weren't let down by Microsoft, they we're let down by their own bosses... RIP Nokia

I was a long time Stephen Elop supportor. Now I feel that with Microsoft cutting Nokia X, and now McLaren, its clearly not aligned with the direction he was taking Nokia towards. He should really be thinking about quitting!!

The Nokia X range did suck though.

And swallowed. Good think they killed it before it layed X babies.

Microsoft killed McLaren?

Yup!

Yep they stopped them from making handsets because Microsoft wants 3D on high end phones but McLaren didn't make any high ends. Posted via Windows Phone Central App

@roguecroce
Almost correct except that Nokia carried on with Symbian when the rest of the world was into Android and IOS. If Nokia had gone Android back in the day they would have been a major player in today's smartphone market. As good as Windows phone is today, I fear it is too little, too late and obviously wasn't enough to keep Nokia in business.

But I still like Symbian compare to Android. My Symbian phone still works fine and have better hardware that are supported by quality software integrated within the phone. I guess it was the developers who needs to be blamed. When they saw an open source OS they git thrilled and started developing more Android apps and slowly the market started seeing touchscreen phones, by that time Samsung released cheap phones and others followed.

@sunbee,
And unfortunately the sort of denial that you have just displayed was also displayed by many others, including developers. This is why Nokia cease to be no more.

I think that Feature Phones including Symbian, was part of their 'emerging markets' strategy, in which case they (Nokia) should have pulled it from main markets years ago... Too many fingers into many pies...

Go back to your ABM sh1thole dude. 

The time for Nokia to go Android had cone and gone by the time Elop came in. At that point the only viable option was Windows Phone really. I'm pretty sure the whole X experiment was a last ditch attempt by the old guard at Nokia and Elop was not too happy about it.

Windows Phone may have been the only option, but I wouldn't call it a "viable option." After billions poured into them from Microsoft they still failed; Nokia was forced to sell off the division before it dragged the whole company under.

Yep. I think that it's finally clear that Nokia would have had a better chance at independent survival had they gone Android.

Why? No non-asian companies producing Android has survived, HTC are making losses, Sony are making losses, LG has made losses... And those are the 2-4th biggest Android-manufacturers today.

^this Windows Phone let Nokia differentiate.  And if you look at many international markets, it worked.  I think Nokia's challenge was bridging from the old to the new.  Despite previous layoffs, Nokia was riding a delicate financial line as they managed the slip of their feature phones.  And yes, they hung onto Symbian for far too long (despite how much fans of Symbian may hate to hear that).  The new Lumia unit was having pretty good upward trend for them, just not enough to stave off the financial burden of their failing feature phone business. Also, Android would NOT have let Nokia duplicate the success they had with the Lumia 520.  Android would perform measurably worse on the entry-level hardware that the 520 uses.  Android L may change that in the coming months, but that doesn't help Nokia 2 years ago.  Part of Windows Phone secret weapon is it runs great even on low-end hardware.  And the 520 was a showcase of that. I think the Microsoft layoffs on the Nokia unit side are a combination of two things:  1) not all of Nokia's phone ideas (X for example) align with Microsoft's business priorities.  2) Microsoft is doing some layoffs that Nokia should have or would have done themselves as their feature phone business continued to shrink. So sorry Mr. Finland person.  No one betrayed anyone.  Businesses have their ups and downs.  Life may be bumpy at times, but it does go on.

How could any other strategy have gone any worse? Elop and WP were total catastrophes for Nokia. Full stop. Posted via the WPC App for Android!

Read a little more about the history before Elop. The previous management channel stuffed (shipped phones that weren't selling) just to keep their sales-numbers looking good. This made Nokia unpopular with their resellers since they were sitting on huge amounts of phones that took space without ever getting sold, and Nokia just kept shipping them.

Ahem. I know Nokia. I work there. Other leaders were bad. Elop however destroyed the phone business.

Yes... But, there was an enormous amount of goodwill for Nokia, don't forget 10 years ago everyone & I mean everyone had a Nokia, you were thought of as strange if you owned another brand... Now that's all gone!!

Yup, that disappeared once the Iphone proved that smartphones didn't have to be hardphones.

Stories like this will get a fair amount of press in the EU, tarnishing the brand further.

That's my thoughts as well. He is betraying them by tarnishing the brand. My company had left areas before when not needed currently and rehired those that worked there prior when they applied again(when the company was doing better).

False. Patently false. The mobile division of Sony is one of the few ones actually making money. They have been very successful with Android. The same with LG. We will not even mention Samsung; they are literally printing their own money.  The problem with your argument that Nokia would have struggled with Android are two-fold. One, you forget that Nokia, like Samsung has a cult-like following, especially in Europe. An open platform would have had the symbian folks more comfortable transitional over. Two, Nokia makes awesome phones. They would have crushed the competition.  You cannot in one breath praise praise Nokia as an excellent phone manufacturer and then turn around and doom them to fail like an average cellphone manufacturer. At the time they were embracing Windows, HTC was the number one Android manufacturer. The Android market was still wide open. It was begging for quality handset. Samsung filled that void, albeit with phones that were gimmicky. Nokia would have killed it.  How do I know this? Because Nokia chose Windows Phone, and they succeeded in using their quality to get to number one. They are the biggest Windows Phone manufacturer in the world. The only problem is they chose the wrong platform. Bieng number one in a 3% marketshare translates to being lower than Sony, LG, and even Hauwei in Android sales. of course, they didn't have a crystal ball to know that Android would become the giant that it is now. So, their reasoning was sound. History has shown it to be wrong. Never put all your eggs in one basket.   If they had brought that same quality and approach to the Android market they would be number one now. Not a doubt in my mind.  This is why it pains those of us that are not blind fanboys. We know what could have been. We know, Elop acted like a fanboy and picked the wrong side. Which is why this is all so frustrating; Nokia did not need to pick a side! They could have let the market show them where the revenue was.  They  didn't. And now, while some of us point at Sony, LG and HTC as examples of how Android does not work. The truth is those companies are not laying off 12,000 employees.  Employees left thinking of what could have been. 

The lay-offs are mostly to get rid of redundancy. It happens everywhere And you contradict yourself. If all it takes is to have a 'cult following' then they didn't need Android in the first place. Symbian would have carried them fine. But the fact is it didn't. Now, we can talk ad-nauseaum about the burning platform memo, but the fact is Symbian was doomed way before that. If not, there'd had been no need to bring a new CEO if everything was so rosy, or to make something like a tool like you seems so "trivial" like "hey, let's dump Symbian and go Android and all that will work wonders"

The big mistake Nokia made was going Windows Phone exclusively, and that mistake was made by their ex Microsoft executive CEO Elop.  If any other person were at the helm of Nokia they would not choose a struggling mobile OS, to save their struggling company I am willing to bet that the bare minimum was done in the search for alternatives to Symbian and Meego, just enough to cover their butts legally so it didn't look like Windows Phone was pre decided. I keep hearing that Samsung is the only company making money with Android, and I used to believe it, but the more I thought about it the more it didn't make sense.  For that to be true all the other Android phone manufacturers must not be too bright, for continuing to throw money down a bottomless pit for so long.  HTC surely can't afford to keep burning money by putting out Android phones, especially since they had the option of focusing on Windows Phone even before Nokia committed to Windows Phone.  It only makes sense when you realize that these companies are making way more money with Android even being way behind Samsung , then they could ever make with Windows Phone.  HTC's problems aren't tied to using Android but fall on HTC itself IMO.  They were the first to manufacture a Nexus phone and IMO it had serious hardware problems.  The Nexus One had a bad touch screen, signal issues and a pitiful amount of memory even for 2010. Sony hardware looks good but is also hit and miss.  I had the Xperia x10 which ran Android Donut out of the box, when Samsung and other OEMs were putting Éclair on their flagship phones.  It didn't have a multi-touch screen even though the specs on Sony's website said it did until they finally changed it months after the phone was released.  Initially it was thought MT wasn't there because Donut didn't support it, but it was left out of the Éclair or Froyo update.  It turned out to have nothing to do with Android but was because the hardware Sony decided to use only supported dual touch.  To top it off the X10 had one of the quietest earpieces at full volume that I've ever heard. My point with the above examples is that it's not Android that is holding back these companies from succeeding in the mobile space, and that if Nokia put out an Android Lumia they would have made way more money and given Samsung stiff competition.  But many WP fans already know that, hence the panic at the mere mention of a Nokia Lumia Android phone possibly coming out.   

it is because all their efforts and marketing are concentated around flagships, the low end and mid range not only has any marketing attention but poor hardware quality, sony xperia Zs Es Ls all have bad battery life very low internal memory and some of them have no sd support, obviously ppl are going to reject them, samsung succeeds because in the end there's no choice for the user other than to buy a sammy low end of mid ranger, Nokia would hv given sammy a run for their money  

But Nokia is different. With the brand it has and the hardware quality, Nokia would have been competing with Samsung and iPhone. Did you know that how many people was wishing for a Nokia android?

Calm down, calm down! Nokia is still alive. And they're pretty much working hard on new awesome technology. If they'll apply it to their own phones in 2016 is still to be seen, but Nokia Technologies is clearly working on improving the experience on Android. Their Z Launcher is the first step and even in its alpha form it has been praised by all those Android users who tried it.

Pretty much working hard? What the hell does that mean lol

Ignore DJCBS he thinks Nokia sh*ts golden bricks. A once decent company, out developed and out delivered by smarter competition like Apple and outspent by Google. They never had the muscle to compete once Apple and Google showed up on their turf. Its just unfortunate. They'd also by that time become so large and fat and non delivering they were never gonna get turned around. MS simple bought some hardware capability, the IP/patents portfolio and the customer base. They will simply drop the rest as they can do the software part in house. This was coming from a mile off. Doesn't stop you feeling bad for the individuals it effects, but good people will find work.

@hwangeruk
Now that makes sense. Honestly, I dare say even a BRILLIANT move on Microsoft's part. The only thing that still irks me is that Nokias engineers are what made the phones so solid. Buying current hardware and parents is great, but when said devices become legacy, you are tasked with creating new devices that are not only familiar to brand loyalists, but highly innovative. Doing so with different people at the helm will prove to be an interesting feat.

Nokia sh*ts golden bricks unlike you, who only sh*ts. Unfortunately you do it out of your mouth.   Also: "MS simple bought (...) IP/patents portfolio and the customer base" Wrong. They haven't bought a simple patent. And they definitely didn't bought any customer base as you CAN'T buy customers, unless you pay them to use the phones.  

No, Microsoft didn't get any patents in this deal. Nokia still holds them.

I wish this site would lay you off  

I wish life you lay you off. Unfortunately, we can't always get what we want.

The truth is they had _nothing_. Nothing. Do they have anything unique in hardware beyond cameras? No. Did the 920 live up to expectation and blow everyone away. No. Its sorta ok in low light (mineis in like 1 out of 20 shots). But it wasn't so good that it knocked the iPhone into a cocked hat. No, Nokia messed around with Symbian and Meego and go no-where. When things moved from shifting feature phones to smartphones they simply didn't have the right people to make it happen. From the top down. (Yes consectutive local CEOs lost Nokias way, thats why they were ripe for takeover, thats not the fault of the purchasing company, yo uare dead right) Their value was in the brand name, IP and patents and some hardware and manufacturing ability. (But phones get built in the east by various companies)
Android absolutely would have not been sucessful for Nokia, no way. Thats such a miconception, there is no differentiator and they would have lost in a straight out cost race with Samsung, mindshare with Google(Motorola) or high with HTC. Nokia had "fail" written all over them. MS never let anyone down, they've actually given a home to many ex Nokia employees, just not all of them. A shame for those on the wrong end, but a long term future for many who are now in the warm bossom of cushy MS.  

Lol different like it was for HTC? Gtfo...

Hey tool, you and the other low-IQ whiners who keep claiming Android had saved Nokia, that's total B.S. HTC uses Android and remains minuscule. BB has the Android apps and that has not saved it You have no proof to back you are saying, other than wishful thinking

Funnily enough the ceo was a Microsoft flunky put in place to obliterate and destroy Nokia.

Nokia was dead in the US, no one would have bought a Nokia Android phone over a Samsung.

You're right. After a big success Nokia was down and the finance minister is using such words. If that was the case he should have been interrupting a year b4 acquisition was announced.

Well to his defense (and I don't like the guy or agree with his political views) it has to be said that he wasn't the finance minister by the time of the deal. By that time he wasn't in a position to do anything about it.

Those were probably not Finnish so they didn't care. I remember one country was pretty angry at Nokia for shutting down a factory really quickly after they opened.

There were pretty public complaints when Nokia laid off staff as well. Microsoft did not "betray" anyone though, but they did break their word. They've been going back and forth so much lately that it is difficult to trust anything they say anymore. In the end though, layoffs are a generally a good thing, not to the ones being laid off, but to the ones who get to keep their job as the company as a whole usually benefits.

Ya but Microsoft doesn't have as good of a reason because they aren't in any financial trouble

But they would be if they kept all 30,000 employees where most of them have positions that are already filled...

No, they wouldn't.. This is Microsoft.. They will never be in financial trouble..

Do you really think Microsoft would be where they are at if they had 2 people doing the same job times 30,000?

How much more would you be willing to pay for your phone so that Microsoft could continue to provide paychecks to people whose work was not going to result in a marketable product? 2 times more? 3 times more? You could say it won't cost them that much extra to keep those 18K employees, but what would be the cut off? Can you say exactly how much unnecessary expense a profitable company should absorb? Then there are Finnish labor costs to consider.  Labor taxes and contributions to insurance plans that are paid by the employer add 24.5% to the gross salary of each employee (source: http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/finland#paying-taxes ). Consider, too, that after one year on the job, Finnish employees get 30 days paid vacation. That's 6 weeks. Compared to the US and several other countries, that's paying for a lot of non-productive time, even if the employee's job function was one that was necessary. Also, the 18K may eventually be far fewer employees. Finnish labor laws obligates Microsoft to try to retrain or reassign workers before considering their job to be redundant. The average labor costs, including taxes, for a Finnish worker is $42.60 as of 2012 (http://www.bls.gov/fls/country/finland.htm ). Multiply that by 2,080 (52 x 40), and you can see how the annualized costs of each employee really adds up. Salary + taxes:     $88,608/yr 12,500 employees: $1,107,600/yr How many years should Microsoft continue to pay workers it doesn't need?          

There was a time when companies retrained people to different positions. A very few still do that. Most of the bigger companies are always looking to cut, trim and a better deal. That's why employees should mirror the companies behaviour, be loyal if the company is loyal, look for better better opportunities if the company is doing it as well. About the 30 days thing: it's 2.5 days for every working month, and it's calculated for a six day week. So it's actually 5 weeks. We also don't get a "13th" salary as in many other countries. It's still very expensive to hire here though.

TY for the firsthand knowledge. As for the retraining, according to the doingbusiness.org website (a data website of The World Bank Group), Finland does require employers to attempt to retrain employees prior to declaring their jobs redundant, so perhaps that factored into the decision to close entire locations. Even if 30 days of paid leave amounts to only 5 weeks, that seems like a lot of time off for an employee who has only been with the company one year. In the US, many companies offer 2 weeks after one year, gradually increasing that until the employees get 4 weeks (160 hours) of paid leave after 5 years... The website also states that severance pay is not required, but that employees must be given notice prior to layoffs, with 1, 5, and 10-yr employees requiring 4.3, 8.7, and 17.3 weeks notice, respectively. Two weeks is the standard here in the US, with most companies opting to pay the employee for the time, but not allowing them to continue working (for security reasons). If you're aware of differences from the reported numbers, I wouldn't be offended to be corrected. I don't have any firsthand knowledge of Finnish employment practices. ;-) I'm not familiar with the term "13th salary," but I'm assuming you might mean paid sick leave or family medical leave in addition to vacation/holiday pay. Many companies in the US have revised their compensation packages to include X number of paid leave days, to be used however the employee chooses, rather than X vacation days and X sick leave days. This is definitely a benefit boost for employees because unused paid leave is owed to the employee if they leave the company for any reason, while unused sick leave is not. When companies provided sick leave, employees would call in sick to use it up prior to leaving, causing a lot of unanticipated absences. Hiring in the US is expensive too. Employers must match employee social security and medicare contributions adding approximately 15.5% to payroll, and most competitive employers offer medical and life insurance, paying 80-90% of the premium (the employee pays the difference). Paid leave + insurance can add 30-45% to an employee's annual gross salary... I hear what you're saying about loyalty and yes, it needs to be a two-way street, but usually is not. I think it would be a different story here if Microsoft had a 10-15% smartphone market share and growing. They'd be able to put the whole crew to work building Lumias. But providing shareholders with ROI on the Nokia purchase will be a long time coming even as they cut operating costs to the bone. 

What I meant with "13th salary" is the custom / law in some countries to pay an extra months salary (Germany is one I believe). While the systems of paid leave vary a bit by country, making comparisons difficult, I didn't mean to imply that things aren't good here regarding that. We get about the same amount as the french. And yeah, there is a requirement to retrain, but it does get circumevented, it's good none the less. Your prior notice numbers are likely right, but I don't really have experience in getting fired so no idea. And it's not like these cuts aren't necessary. This is a politician riding on the finnish expectation / custom of having public figureheads speak the truth (at least technically). There was some uproar when Nokia shut down their last finnish factory as well, as Elop had some months prior announced that no more layoffs would happen there. It too was necessary, but communicated wrong for the finnish culture, I guess. Also, I applaud you for well put together and polite comments.

Ah. I guess it's not a bonus if it's mandatory. Not so much any more, but profit sharing is a customary method in the US for company contributions to retirement plans. If the company isn't making money, you're not retiring. LOL I'll return the compliment re: well written and courteous comments. It seems emotions can run high, even among people who are not directly affected by economic decisions. But my daughter has taught me much about being a better global citizen. ;-)

Yeah it was when Steven Elop is the CEO of Nokia

Nokia missed one BIG shot - MAEMO OS
Do you remember Nokia N900? That was a high tech smartphone for geeks based on Linux! Best choice after Symbian but they failed. Symbian was good too

+N9! Such a lovely phone! Nokia killed it before people bought it. I believe MSFT paid a huge sum to Nokia to go WP exclusively and kill all other phones.

To this day the N9 is the finest phone I've ever used. Windows Phone just cannot compare, even 3 years later. Sad, really.

Yep that's true. My point of view on the recent layoff announcement, I just think it's not fair I mean, you acquired and got something then ditch the employees for yourself. Like a greedy thing. Others might just think the same way as me. Posted via Windows Phone Central App

This was bound to happen.. Controversies are part of business!!

Did Microsoft promise that there would be no layoffs? This really shouldn't be that surprising. If not for Microsoft, it could have been 100% of Nokia employees without jobs.

This is repeated over and over, how do you or anyone else know for certain this would happen? We may like WP but the OS hasnt exactly set the world on fire and its taken Microsoft almost 4 years to make it even remotely competitive so maybe if Nokia hadnt gone 100% WP the story would have been different? Nokia obviously had the hardware but were let down by the OS for years, I'm not as sure as everyone else that they would be dead if they had chosen a different smartphone platform.

Wouldn't Nokia have had problems sooner without the MS cash in the early years tho?

Yes, the company was underwater financially when they made Microsoft a partner, and let me point out that Windows phone is compelling, obviously its doing well in other countries. Here in the US, iPhone and Android has had a huge start and people here are a different breed when I comes to their gadgets. Plus this country has a habit of being bias. Windows phone has an uphill battle, that's for sure, but change is necessary to get there. Microsoft did not betray a country as they say, they made a business decisions to make the company operate better. I know, I been laid off when a new CEO took over my company.

That money went mostly to pay the licence for WP.

Amen

Nokia was more than just Windows Phone. Most of the layoffs are related to Asha and S40 phones. Also, anytime there is a large acquisition like this, there is bound to be layoffs. I have been through it myself. That is how I know.

Fun fact... There were 4,700 people employed in Finland, up to 1,100 will lose their jobs. That is less than 25% in Finland. Plus, the Microsoft deal propped up the rest of Nokia, so there could have been many more than 1,100 jobs lost. Microsoft will still employee 3,600 Fins. The rest of the Nokia layoffs are obviously outside of Finland.

Yes they did. They said Nokia would stay pretty much as it was. 12500 people gone is far from it.

But it's less than 30,000 people gone.

It's still breaking their word, and finns aren't very tolerant of that, even if it's quite common for business big heads in the world.

What word? If you can find a quote stating that Microsoft said there would be no layoffs, then I will agree with you. Otherwise, the only thing that was stated was that Microsoft was committed to Finland. Lumias will still be developed primarily out of Finland. The vast majority of the jobs cuts are outside of Finland, which doesn't impact them. Of the jobs lost in Finland, those were mostly related to feature phones, which Nokia would have had to cut at some point anyway.

Finland's Minister of Finance Antti Rinne, is justified in his anger in my opinion. PS.  Nokia Lumia 920 owner.

I think its justified yes, bit I'd not fair towards MSFT. They are a company not a charity.

^ this. Microsoft did what was best for Microsoft, Nokia did what was best for Nokia, and Finland will do what is best for Finland. That is how the world works.

I like your point

They also installed a Trojan horse by the name of Elop who royally screwed Nokia. They also barely supported the platform - leaving Nokia engineers to plug the holes! & then when the platform finally gets some traction, Nadella sweeps the rug from under everyone and torpedoes Nokia.
Shame on Microsoft.

selop, no words for him.

Pretty sure it was Nokia's board who installed Elop.

To me, this is a joke! Was there any formal agreement to this end? Why is the minister pretending not to have seen this coming??? Are they kids? These guys have had tons of experience related to this! To me its just plain politics, trying to look good at the expense of MS looking bad. Its so damn convenient to let someone else take the fall in difficult times. I mean, betrayed the Finns?? The minister is the one who betrayed his country by watching as a company was sold to foreigners and now that the 'worst' has happened, he comes out to talk! Please give me a break! What do they expect MS to do?? What??

Good of the Finance minister to cue in now, where was the government when Nokia was on track to extinction?

Well, Rinne wasn't the finance minister when the deal took place. The finance minister by then definitely wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Rinne is entitled to be annoyed as he read the same promises the rest of us Finns did back when the deal took place. By that time he couldn't have done anything to stop the deal. This is actually the second post of me defending a guy I don't like at all. I just happen to like facts too much.

i agree.

How many employees did they bring in when the acquried Nokia?

25,000, they laid off half of them in the layoffs this week.

Most of them are not in Finland though. The majority of people are working in manufacturing and that has been moved out of Finland for quite some time.

The share holders are happy and that's usually all that matters these days. They should have watched mr. Deeds before making this deal.

Lets be honest, Nokia was going to have to make these cuts anyway. I think by keeping the phone development in Finland, rather than moving it to Redmond, MS is keeping to its promise.

Amem

Yes.

Saved Nokia from going under completely after they failed to compete in the modern mobile world.

Exactly.

Because windows phone made them compete with the modern mobile world, right?

Soo what your saying is its WP fault they failed.. You act like everyone selling Android phones are doing that great. Outside of Samsung everyone else is losing out, even google has a tough time getting respectable numbers via Motorola. So I think Nokia would be in the same spot regardless the OS

Most Android OEMs are making money.

No Symbian did.

Nokia's hardware was great. They failed to compete because WP was a pathetic OS. Only 8.1 is somewhat competitive.  

Exactly...

Really? You think HTC or Sony make hardware inferior to Nokia? And these guys have been on Android forever, yet it's still a bitter struggle. Not to mention the new kids on the block: Oppo, 1+, Huawei etc. Either ways, Nokia would still be in this situation. The Android world isn't much different from the PC hardware world. Cutthroat competition with little margins, except probably for Samsung, and we know that is a huge company with multiple streams of revenue -- they even make microwave ovens!

I would have prefered Nokia and Microsoft to stay separate or at least I would have liked Microsoft to buy Nokia as a whole. I feel as if Microsoft didn't buy the true Nokia...

And if they had bought all of Nokia, that layoff number would have been higher.

Absolutely

I do feel the same way, but this is how business works, especially when the direction/vision/ceo of the company changes

The fine print stated that commitments are a US-only Microsoft service. Not available in Finland, sorry for the inconvenience of being fired /sadface.

MS is scarring me as of the last few days:/ First no McLaren or even a flagship for the holidays and the layoffs. Might be time for me to jump the MS ship. My Icon has a broken screen and I don't feel like wasting my new contract on another Icon, so if MS doesn't have a flagship this holiday season then ima be very disappointed. No flagship even deterred me from my Surface Pro 3 buy, not gonna invest in a ecosystem with no flagship smartphone on the horizon. Say what you will, I've stayed with MS for awhile, no flagship this holiday season and it will be the last mistake I can take from MS

There will probably be a flagship around the holiday season but without the 3D Touch technology.

OMG, why do you NEED a flagship if you're not going to buy it?  Peace of mind?  If your icon screen broke, get it fixed under warranty! Somehow after reading the first five words of your comment I KNEW the inevitable 'jump ship' would follow.  You people are so fickle!

I don't know where you're reading explicitly "no flagship" because it has been said several times there would be some kind of flagship device, or at least a few high end handsets on the way this fall/early spring.  Plus it's good to see people like you, and probably half of the other commenters on this site putting their faith blindly into a rumor mill expected to be compensated with some mystery device we really didn't know much about. Patience is something Microsoft can't provide, but a lot of people need on here. I've had my 920 for almost two years with a cracked screen for almost eight months. And the whole time I've waited for a new high end device to be announced with 8.1 and I'll still be waiting for it. Not on some rumor phone, but an actual, ready for market device. 

Tom Warren tweeted that new flagships will be announced. Even Nadella had said something to the same effect. WPCentral reeks of FUD.

Preach. I guess WPCentral is just catering to it's audience, which seems to consist of suicidal hormonal teen girls who love nothing more than to shit their pants and panick over everything. And no rumor is trusted unless it's a bad rumor, like the insane "MS going android" type insanity. That gets taken at face value and doom & gloom is posted all over the comments. The most tiring thing about WP is reading it's fans' comments.

My sentiments exactly! They cant seem to get it together...They cant market their own OS much less develop or get developers to develop for it. On top of that the major issue of releasing 8.1 Cyan and now the Bitlocker bug not to mention the slow release after it was promised by summer. THey destroyed the Creative Studio with its latest update(my opinion). They are constantly grandstaning only to waver on what the originaly say.... Im said to say, but I will be going to test drive the Iphone 6 or G3

And no one should be mad at you for that. I'm sticking with windows phone but you give very valid reasons and im sure you're not the only!

The BitLocker Bug only affects people running the Developer Preview which is a Beta of the OS. Issues are to be expected. I've seen the same complaints when there were some issues with the Xbox One Dashboard Preview. In the end: if you can't live with issues, don't install Beta/Preview Software. As for update rollout: they said it would roll out "in summer" not "by summer". Creative Studio in my opinion surfaces some options a lot better than before. The functionality is still there so I don't see the issues there but it might be bad if you were used to the old workflow. That being said: if you want to venture into other OSes I encourage you to because it's always best to look around for what fits you best.

So you're saying you won't stay with Microsoft without a new flagship...just to be clear.

Palco (authorized Nokia repair center) will fix your screen for around $200, plus $10 shipping. Broke the screen on my 2520 3 weeks after getting it. They had the phone back to me in ten days, and it still had all my apps, pics, data, etc. Didn't even have to reset it. Whine much?

Somewhat

Since when has any major business buyout or merger ever resulted in no layoffs? Buyouts or mergers result in the duplication of jobs so some people will have to go as a result. It was naiive of Finland to believe that Microsoft would protect jobs when they bought Nokia

This was too severe to make any sense. If Microsoft had obtained other things of value in this deal (Nokia name, patents, maps, apps of value) you could argue it makes sense to cut the staff they didn't want. But all Microsoft got out of the Nokia deal was the personnel and the Lumia name. The Lumia name was not worth $7.3B + $1.6B in severance's. So were the executive leads at Nokia worth that much? Nadella never wanted this deal, I don't think Nadella has the stomach for Microsoft to even make hardware. He has already cancelled at least 2 major mobile hardware devices this year (Surface-Mini, McLaren) and he has killed off the feature phone business (Asha/S40) which MS initially promised to continue.

Nokia would have failed without Microsoft. How many jobs would that have cost...

Sorry but, Windows Phone would definitely fail if it wasn't for Nokia

Exactly. They needed each other

Windows Phone would have failed without Nokia.
Would Nokia have failed without Microsoft? I don't think so.....they would have carved out an excellent position in the Android space.
I dare say - given their corporate values - Nokia could have also been an iOS licensee. I personally would have loved an iOS device with Nokia's unique software and hardware.
Windows Phone had potential. I think it may have just blown that after this ridiculously bad week of news!!

Soo what your saying is its WP fault they failed.. You act like everyone selling Android phones are doing that great. Outside of Samsung everyone else is losing out, even google has a tough time getting respectable numbers via Motorola. So I think Nokia would be in the same spot regardless the OS.. And the iOS part had to of been a joke

Out of the around 50 Android OEMs worldwide, can you give me any numbers on their mobile divisions? Or are you just waving around a magic "only Samsung makes money" flag?

The point is that it's easier to stand out and make a name for yourself amongst 3-4 OEM's instead of 50.

Nokia didn't need to make a name for itself. It was the second biggest phone manufacturer - with a HUGE following throughout Europe and in developing countries. It is a brand that people trusted - but which had lost its way with Symbian. If it had gone with Android, it wouldn't be scrapping with Sony and HTC. It would be duking it out with Samsung ---- and given how little innovation Samsung has actually brought to the table, I reckon Nokia could have eclipsed them too. Nokia is a name that should still be in the smartphone sphere. I personally have no real affiliation to any other mobile phone company....no other phone company offers to me what Nokia did (reliability, call quality, dependebility, social conscience, & innovation in areas I care about....namely, videography)

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree as I don't think Nokia would've been a force to be reckoned with in the Android arena. I believe that they saw the writing on the wall (in terms of dwindling market share and fierce competition) and decided to make themselves as valuable as possible for potential buyers of the mobile division. It would either be Microsoft, Google or Samsung with the money available to buy them out... so they had to make a choice to ensure that sale went through. Either way they were going to bow out of the mobile market... they just had to get as much money as they good when it happened.

Regulators approved the deal.  Nokia was sinking ship before MS got involved.  Everybody knows what happens after a merger like this.  Nokia's stock has doubled in the past 11 months thanks to MS.  But go ahead, blame MS for your beloved company's failures.  It's always somebody else's fault.

They betrayed windows phone

What?

I'm sure there's not to many people who have ever been excited about getting laid off unless, you hate the job anyway, shops closing, or your the one handing out the pink slips

As much as I like WP if Nokia would have gone with Android this wouldn't have happened. With their innovation and technological expertise they would have dominated Samsung or at least would have given SamCopySung run for their money

They def would not have dominated. Competed, more likely. Remember that these cuts were more than likely unavoidable.

Dominated Samsung?Wishful thinking:)They would be in the same boat with HTC,LG,and Sony.

Bullsh*t. Nokia have built 10%+ market share on their own using a relatively crap OS...
Imagine what they could have done with an OS that actually gave them the flexibility to innovate. We wouldn't have had to wait so long for all of the features that we have only just received now.
The smartphone world is a vastly poorer place with bungling Microsoft owning Nokia.
Also, I only bought into Windows Phone because I valued Nokia as a company. Now we no longer have Nokia, do I really value Windows Phone? Probably not.

Calm down!Take a deep breath.The position Nokia was in they had no choice but to go with WP,and going Android would not have made that big of a impact in the short term with Nokia's money woe's.

You ain't got a clue. In fact, in mobile stores, when people see Nokia, they would ask "does it have android?"

Can't remember whether Nokia was the biggest or the second biggest player in the mobile space before the WP -deal. Of course, they were crashing down even then, but their position was quite strong, and Android could indeed have worked. Then again, WP could have worked too if MS had paid any serious attention to it. 8.1 is 2 years too late for what it offers when compared to other platforms.

I really doubt that. Samsung I successful because of their hardware with the newest tech fir a low prize and because if the Google services. Not specifically because Android as an OS was so great. Nokia can't compete with the tech strength of Samsung and would have had no customers for their maps and music business if Google Play store would have been available on their devices.

Can't compete with the tech strength of Samsung?! What stuff are you smoking bro?
Nokia has the most advanced cameras, microphones and call quality. They were ahead of the curve with OIS, wireless charging and value added software (Nokia Camera, MixRadio, Creative Studio etc).
Not to mention, they have a vastly better support network - and better software solutions for fixing software issues that may arise.
Nokia are currently ahead of Samsung....the 930 & 1020 camera proves that.
Just a shame that Microsoft are going to stop the innovation.

Unfortunately, they would have ended up like HTC, making awesome devices that no one buys.  No one can compete with Samsung on Android.  They own the end to end process including CPU/GPU, screens, sensors, etc.  They rarely have to "buy" chips from other companies, hence they are at a competitive advantage.

Nonsense, it would be very difficult to differentiate themselves in any category of the Android market. There's always cheaper models, and most innovations are replicated quickly. On WP they could provide a complete range of handsets, as well as useful and relatively unique applications - those same apps would be thrown on the pile in Android. Nokia saved Windows Phone, became a desirable product as well as a major player in many markets. The only issue is that it might be too late... The Android & IOS juggernauts are continuing unabated. Most apps come out on those 2 platforms and WP is still ignored

They wouldn't have dominated a damn thing. They company was hemorrhaging cash, and only the NSN wing (the party MS didn't buy) was keeping them afloat. Samsung dominates because they spend billions on marketing, and have so much money they never have to quit. Nokia didn't have either option. The billions that MS paid them were the only reason the mobile division still existed. Surely you don't think the sign $60 Asha market was keeping them rolling in dough?

Please, like the article written by Chris said yesterday this was likely part of the deal. Nokia sells part of itself to MS and MS will be responsible for the layoffs.

Funny after what Nokia did in Bochum Germany a few years ago

1- Not happy with majority of layoffs being in Nokia.
2- Not happy with getting rid of asha and Nokia x
3- Not happy with losing Mixradio
4- Not happy with losing Mclaren.
----
5- If Microsoft didn't see a future in Nokia, they shouldn't have bought it.

And you're somehow getting inside info from Microsoft saying they're having problems with their Nokia purchase how...?

What do those four things have to do with Microsoft not seeing any future in Nokia? That's like saying dumping the Courier years ago meant Microsoft saw no future in tablets or touch screens. Nokia X and Asha were never paths Microsoft planned to go down, but were part of the dea with Nokial. MixRadio, although, probably better than XBOX Music right now, is a duplication of products. As far as McLaren goes, how can you fell bad about losing something that doesn't yet exist other than in rumors?

Nokia X was likely to go away anyway. I really wonder why it even launched after the takeover was already known to happen. Mixradio is more complicated but it's being spun off as a standalone company instead of being closed down. Having 2 music services in house doesn't make much sense. Layoffs with Nokia was also likely to happen - for one the duplicate functions in finance, legal, hr, pr, etc. departments and then with the end of Asha and Nokia X also a reduction in manufacturing. Lastly though: the ones deciding today about the layoffs aren't the ones who decided to buy Nokia. Steve Ballmer is gone. He went the devices and services route - Nadella seems to go in a somewhat different direction. In some ways he might see the Nokia buyout as a wrong decission he will have to live with now.

I was also hoping for a newer flagship phone to replace my aging Lumia 920.. Windows phone for me has been a mixed bag. Some good, some bad. I think if they miss the opportunity to deliver on a newer phone @ the Holliday season I may look at other options as well since my contract will be up then.

all ive seen is that they are not bringing the rumor phone MClauren because the 3D touch is not ready for consumer usage, and after the kinetic issue its better in the long run that they drop it now than later. they are still make flagship phones they just havent been announced as of yet from what ive seen. 

Where are people getting the idea that there will be no new high-end phones later this year? They've actually said the complete opposite. It just won't be McLaren.

Public Employees probably have no idea how the real world works when it comes to employment but they always tell you "nothing will change... Your job is safe... This is a great thing....". Until it's done and about 6 months in. Then the axe falls.

Commitment to finnish know-how, not finnish dead weight.

I'm starting to feel betrayed too! Thanks Microsoft!!!

How so?

Is there anyone who doesn't feel betrayed on WP? So many broken promises, the 7->8 debacle, endless delays and glacial development timeframes, flagship models released missing basics like microSD, WP8 taking a huge step back in many aspects, Zune, Xbox music, more broken promises etc. I just want to be excited about a feature or device and be rewarded with it 1) actually being released and 2) living up to expectations / promises

Well, maybe I'm the only one, but I don't feel betrayed by Microsoft. They made no specific promises to me. I may be disappointed by some of the decisions, but not betrayed, and I'd rather be in the Microsoft ecosystem that the over priced Apple ecosystem or the information stealing Google ecosystem.

Because MS has not announced one piece of encouraging WP news all year. Yeah great so WP 8.1 is coming out. We’ve known about it for over a year and it is just now starting to slowly go out for public release. We’re playing catch up to other platforms and yet releases are slow and have issues. And MS has done nothing special to support their own platform. Crippling music, removing cool WP features like Glance and social media Hub integration, getting rid of great Nokia apps, etc. Yeah that’s a really great way to support your platform.
 
And where are the true successors to the 920, 925, and 1020? Sorry but I don’t consider the Icon/930, or 16GB phones, or phones without Glance or wireless charging built-in, or any of these 512 MB ram devices with no front cameras successors.  There has not been any marketing for Windows Phones lately either.  Whatever happened to the cool commercials showing off the cool WP OS functionality, or how great the low light cameras are, or the Don’t Fight Switch ad?  MS better announce some positive news soon or I suspect a lot of people will be jumping a sinking ship!

Completely agree! If they don't bring out a new 920 or 1020 with microSD then I'm jumping ship. I'm sick of waiting and I'm sick of having to compromise. How hard is it to have a flag-ship phone with microSD? The ATIV has been the ONLY offering so far (flag-ship with microSD), which is rather sad. Either that or I have to compromise once again and put up with a monstrous phablet. The OEM's need to lift their game if they hope to compete. HTC have basically given up on WP... LG & Samsung aren't really making much effort either. It's been 3+ years and we can't keep saying "don't worry, it'll get better" and keep patiently waiting.

Agreed!

It sure feels like there has been a lot of negativity lately surrounding MS. I am a proud WP user but I can't help but a little discouraged and disheartened today. Maybe its all the little (and some big) things adding up, but I feel like the momentum WP started bringing with apps and updates has just dissipated. Not sure how to explain it, or the right words to use, but in simplistic terms, I don't feel great about MS right now.

The way I see it, Microsoft can continue to pay salaries to people they don't need, or they can spend the money developing new and better products, and getting them to the customer faster. Given the choice, I'd prefer the latter.

I realize I posted my comment under this topic, but if you read my entire comment, I am talking about a lot of things adding up, not this specifically.

Bad MSFT... I feel disheartened :(

I like Nokia not Microsoft. Allways loved the hardware of Nokia phones. So if Nokia had used android I go with them. But since it was Windows I did try that. But I see all the good apps still are the ones that had the Nokia brand on them. Ms apps sucks. Now that is all MS I'm not sure what to buy next. Maybe I join the fruit clan........ (but then I would miss the Nokia Quality hardware)..

The Bing apps are actually really good. The Bing app team seems to know what they're doing. I wish they would take over Skype and Xbox Music app development. Xbox Video app is not bad either. Cortana and the mail app are pretty good as well. On the other hand I think the Nokia Here Drive app could use a lot of improvement and feel like it was designed for the Windows UI and not Symbian OS.

My advise is this: go Sony. Sony is the only OEM that can come close to Nokia standards in everything. Build quality, cameras, experiences etc.

Not in services but

Cool :P

Microsoft didn't betray Finland, Nadella the Undertaker betrayed Finland.

Where is BALLMER when we need him ? This new guy is full of enterprise and cloud BS.

This really sickens me. I tend to agree that Microsoft did screw over the employees that came from Nokia. I get that it's a business decision, but is there really no room for these people and their jobs??

Microsoft betrayed all WP users when they canceled McLaren....

By canceling an unnanounced phone? Why is everyone so entitled and melodramatic?

I think it's more the "I find your lack of high end devices disturbing" part. Having the only (rumored or otherwise) high end flagship device cancelled put a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

They better have something good up their sleeve that will hit all the major carriers this year. I'm tired of my 2 year old 920. The 930 isn't even available on my carrier and it is not running the modern Snapdragon. If Nadella screws the pooch and doesn't deliver a flagship Windows Phone in 2014, it is all on him and his lack of commitment to the hardware business.

Agreed!  I love my 920 and I've only had it for 13 months but I was really looking forward to a newer, awesome specs device like the McLaren. I could care less for the gimmicky 3D stuff. But I wanted a true flaghip successor worthy of comparing to the latest offerings from other platforms. We need to get back to real innovation again. Stick with awesome cameras, imaging, and wireless charging. It worked the first time around.

Politicians trying to gain fame on the backs of others suffering... Lame as always

This was bound to happen. Microsoft cannot keep everyone. This happens everytime when acquisition takes place.

Too soon to judge!!

He is in his total right to feel like that, I think that with recent news a lot of people feel betrayed, even costumers, I know most of our opinions are completely worthless, but many people have lost their faith in Microsoft, or at least I almost have

I love nokia...it was a wrong strategy to sell of Nokia, I will miss alot and cant think to live wtht it and have never used any other phone except Nokia....if Real Nokia is listening, pl take this division back, cant think without u. Love u always, Hats off to NOKIA...

I agree with the Finland minister.

MS betrayed Nokia and Finland. The lying sack of shit Elop was a sent in to keep the share price as low as possible till MS came up with an offer to buy the whole lot. Ballmer said there would be no lay-offs, and that they'd start a research center of some shirt in Finland. When Nadalla came in, all those promises were naturally swept aside. Is easy to see it was all planned from MS. And they still can't make the OS float, nor are they able to introduced interesting phones. Thank goodness Sony has sexy Android phone, will be nice to use a product that I know has innovative management, proven OS and has trust from its owners. Shame MS. Still considering Surface 3pro, but WP is as good as dead to me - not worth supporting such a piss-weak performance as this WP is now.

What did MS get for buying Nokia for almost $9B including severance? They didn't get the Nokia name, they didn't want Nokia manufacturing, they didn't want Nokia's feature phone biz, they didn't get Nokia's patent, they didn't get Here maps? Claiming this was MS master plan doesn't make any sense. It's basically saying MS destroyed Nokia from the inside to buy their employees and fire them. Why?

Nokia makes fine smartphones & my 1520 is the best I have used, by a wide margin MS OS, while not as elegant as WebOs, is vastly superior to Android or Apple & the 1520 a wonderful platform for it ...Windows Mobile seems to be swimming along quite well from my experience with it, even with AT&T's partially crippled 1520 I trust MS will continue to support this fine tool I only hope MS has the wisdom to keep many of the guts of Nokia active & condolences to all the Finns who took this corporate hit, but they must have seen this coming

I am thinking that Microsoft, or Nokia, whichever is applicable, has "something" that prevents them to compete with the Android and iOS.

Nothing can be done now. I hope those guys find another job asap.

As a Finnish friend told me, it's been a while since any Finn government has had the balls to stand up for anything.
Of course Microsoft would do this, everyone in Finland was expecting this... Everyone except the Finnish government, clearly.
So I don't know if this is really treason. It's just Microsoft being Microsoft. They are only concerned with one country: The US. It's been this way for ages.

And in MSFT World this is a small number. For Finland, or any Nordic country, its a lot. Were small :|

Exactly. It's a lot of people for Finland and not only that, but for Hungary as well where they intend to close the last European factory. But everyone saw this coming. The fact that the Finnish government gave the OK to the deal with the hope that Microsoft wouldn't do this was the problem.
Even if Nokia was in bad shape, I think it would have been wiser for the Finnish government to directly inject money into the company but now it's done...

That would have been a wiser choice indeed.
Well, Nokia is yet another slaughtered company in the name of money ...to those upstairs.

I wonder what were going to work with in the future, are we going to become like the northern parts of our country's are now? Abandoned because you have hard times managing business there, Moving south and go "home" for summer vacations?

I think Nokia still has some surprises up their sleeves coming from HERE and the Technologies divisions. But it is something the Finns should indeed be concerned. Nokia was a powerhouse for decades. Rovio is doing well but Angry Birds won't last forever. And we still don't know how long will Jolla last (either because they fail or because they're bought by someone...). Finland would also try to atract some other tech companies to make use of the tech workforce that has been prepared in Finnish universities for so many years (as I understand it, working for Nokia was a lot of Finns life ambition).

There has actually been quite a few tech -companies coming to and expanding in Finland in the recent years, mostly research though.

Looks like it is the classic case of "out of sight, out of mind", I guess the finish government chose the easy route (hoping it won't back fire) so they didn't have to deal with the headache in finding the funds to inject into Nokia.

Indeed. Which was pretty stupid of them, since I'm pretty sure the EU would have unlocked funds to maintain Nokia as it was the last major European OEM and it's an important company for Finnish economy. They were just lazy.

Layoffs & restructuring are inventible with every Merger or Acquisition deal ... What were they expecting?
It's not like the layoffs are only in the newly acquired Finnish branch ... Microsoft also laid off people from Redmond & others from around the world. I don't feel Microsoft betrayed Finland or anyone else ... Don't get me wrong, layoffs sucks & I feel bad for the laid off employees ... But it was bound to happen either way ... Sooner or later.

People saying that Nokia would have failed otherwise needs to get their facts straight...70-80% people here are using WP just because Nokia chose it.... Otherwise they would never have their hands on some smartphone OS which had got less features then Nokia's asha series s40 (beginning days of WP 7.5).
AND one other thing people saying Nokia is dead anyways remember even if they launch a flagship phone(1520/930) running Android, within a year they will be one of the top Android vendors... And hopes of Microsoft's WP even becoming a third place legitimate OS would be in dust.
WP is what it is today just because of NOKIA

True

None of what you said changes the fact that regardless if Microsoft acquired Nokia that lay offs wouldn't happen. They would have. Undoubtably. Remember which sections of Nokia the layoffs are affecting. It's primarily the feature phone business and manufacturing. The redundant position elimination may not have happened if Nokia wasn't acquired but the cost of doing business would have drove them into the ground anyway. Just look at their numbers...

First, you say "Let's get our facts straight" and then you throw out made up percentages like it is a fact?  70-80% bought it because it was Nokia. Show me your data. I definately did not buy a WP because it was Nokia.  Nor did my dad purchase his Icon because it was Nokia or several other people I know get a WP because of Nokia as the primary reason. Secondly, I hate, really hate when people play armchair quarterback.The most important fact about Nokia chosing Windows (yes this a true fact unlike yours)  is they received an infusion of cash and other incentives.  Cash which they desparately needed to keep the company afloat.  Google had no interest in supplying the billions of loans, incentives and licensing deals that Microsoft did.  Nokia had manufacturing infrastructure but no cash to do anything. Their profits and stock was tanking (long before Elop took the reigns for those of you that think he was some Microsoft insider).  If they went with Android they would have to pay $15+/phone to Microsoft for patents and would have had to compete with Samsung and other much more solvent manufacturers.  Thirdly, name another company, other than Samsung that actually makes a good profit off their Android phones sales for the past 3-4 years.  I thought so.  There are only two companies that have truly made gobs of money from Android phone sales: Samsung and Microsoft itself.  In fact Samsung is currently taking quite a big hit financial because of the downturn in sales of their Android phones.  There would be no Nokia phone division to create this so called Android 930 if Microsoft was not around several years ago to make a deal with them. 

WP is now a dead duck no flagship phones for the foreseeable future bad publicity and a CEO who wants to concentrate on the low cost emerging markets. There are a lot of Lumia owners that are nearing or who are at end of contract. They are not going to wait forever for a WP flagship nor are they going to waste a two year contract on something similar. Time to face reality MS has left the high end phone arena.

No new WP this year is just another perplexing decision by MS. I somewhat get it though. I have a few friends who work for Microsoft (as of yesterday one doesn't) and they are all intelligent...under a certain topic. All 4 of them though have no common sense whatsoever. I don't say that to be mean, but it is true. They all have a technical mind but when it comes to life they are completely lost.

Stop spreading nonsense. New phones are coming in a couple of months

Okay, let me quote directly from a WPCentral article from this morning. = "Microsoft is completely canceling McLaren. In effect, this leaves Microsoft in a potentially vulnerable position this fall as the hardware and services company does not have any flagship Windows Phones, to our knowledge, in the pipeline."
*I don't care or want a low end phone.* Maybe phone will come this year...but it better be a high end model.

Going low end first should have been their (or rather Nokia's) strategy from the get-go. Most of the popular missing apps are service -apps which benefit from large userbases, or local apps which, again, are made for the masses. Especially as Android was a poor experience on low end devices for a long time. Of course, they should still be, and are, releasing high end phones.

Ever since the takeover its been downhill.   Nuff said!!!!

Well, we don't know what exactly MS "promised" when Balmer and Elop met with the Gov etc. It's been reported they promised to 1) make/maintain Finland as a mobile hub - check 2) not to transfer work elsewhere (I assume in large numbers) - check, basically 3) to invest in Finland - check, in the sense that we all know they are also hiring some people, and have promised to keep coming back to WP - that will require some investment in Finland too; however, this I believe mainly refers to invest in data centers in Finland (not yet at least AFAIK, and Minister Rinne in this story says he will "demand" them now) 4) maintain Tampere as one of the centers (Elop's "promise" to a journalist) - this seems to be not the case going forward with all of the mobile phones business down So, yes, of course the Minister feels disappointed and made comments he wanted and needed to make in a situation like this (to some extent also as he is a Social-Democrat which is tradtionally very close to the labor unions etc.).

*wishful thinking* maybe the remains of Nokia will take some engineers etc back?

Of cause they have.

He should be mad at the previous management (pre-Elop) that drove the company into the ground.

I think Microsoft is building its own product line! In some cases like Surface and Xbox they built it from the ground up. With Nokia they brought the line! No one likes lay offs and no one like to down size. The fact is, this is just the way life is! The jealousy ( in my opinion) and the unreasonable expectations most people put on Microsoft often put them as the bad guys!   I have a Lumia 1520 and Surface Pro 3. I have had many different computers from my first IBM in 1980 to my Surface now. I have owned Apple IOS and IBM OS as well as Microsoft DOS-Windows. In business I have even used Unix and Linux. In all that time I have never had a better system then I do now with the Surface Pro 3. Let Microsoft build and grow there business and you will see in time they will not disappoint you!

Did they actually say where the 18,000 employees being let go were located? I assumed this would come out when MS posts their financials next week.

Lets hope Microsoft knows what is doing and we can see good results or better things from Microsoft from phones and tablets and software

It was inevitable that Nokia would eventually be acquired by MS after they basically became the major designer and maker of Windows phones... Signed a deal with the devil, in my opinion, but they were in decline before that.

The ministry had to say that to save their face to their own population.

Yeah I'm thinking in a year or two it'll be back to a two horse race...Microsoft is going to botch this and Nokia is really just a memory now...

Feeling pity for the laid of Nokia employees. But what the hell is McLaren?

Looks like the pitch forks are now out and kicking.

Well its how things work you cant expect to pay that many ppl when many of their jobs are no longer required due to overlapping with existing ones

Its been pouring the whole week.

Shame but inevitable, I still have my 9.20 for solely for the camera and xbmc app, Andriod is my daily device now, don't think I could live without things like tasker and those little apps that just aren't released for WP

I am starting to feel betrayed too thanks to MS but I also blame Nokia why the hell they didn't accept android if the OS have problems acc. To Nokia then they should let it to people to judge which OS is better then people have the option for going with windows/Android/Symbian etc, I think, its because of the problem with the boses of Nokia, I curse them and someone please let me know wheather Nokia will come back to life again or not, as I read somewhere that Nokia can again compete in the smartphone market after 2 years of the deal. Please let me know mohammadkashifsaleem@live.com
I want someone to kill Stephen elop, he is the main culprit and the devil

Now that makes sense. Honestly, I dare say even a BRILLIANT move on Microsoft's part. The only thing that still irks me is that Nokias engineers are what made the phones so solid. Buying current hardware and parents is great, but when said devices become legacy, you are tasked with creating new devices that are not only familiar to brand loyalists, but highly innovative. Doing so with different people at the helm will prove to be an interesting feat.

I think Microsoft is finally getting serious about competing in the 21st Century. They have to get leaner, and have more of a challenger mentality, and they're getting there, but it is painful. It's also the only way you don't end up another Nokia. Stop your whining unless you brought the cheese to go with it. The sky isn't falling. This is just what the future looks like on the way there. Man, your all a bunch of neurotic, Negative Nellies. More apps than ever. Better phones than ever, more OEMS, than ever. Damn, it's like listening to a million wives, bitching, whining, and moaning, all at the same time, all the time. Get a set, and ride the horse, girls! You choose the underdog platform. There was no set time frame or magic bullet, to WP success. This is what starting from behind looks like. Get over it!

The Nokia people after better than the Microsoft people in regards to marketing and app development, please say they stayed...

I know what you mean. I've been on the WP platform for years now. I've talked friends and family into getting on board. I want WP to succeed. But, I'm concerned about some things I'm seeing and it's making me question my decision to stick with WP. First and foremost, we keep HEARING that Microsoft is going to put WP first and provide the best experience possible for its users. But, what I keep SEEING is more attention put into developing for competing platforms. Second, I've been on the 1020 for a while now and I'm ready to upgrade. I don't want a phone that is physically larger and I don't want a budget phone. It's starting to look like if I want to upgrade, WP is not going to have anything to offer me. I would love an upgraded 1020, but there has been no chatter on that at all. If I want to upgrade in the next year, I might have to move away from WP to get a phone in the size I want. :/
I do want to give some serious credit to the team developing WP 8.1. Been on it for months and love it! In the end, you need a phone to run it on though. Microsoft, offer flagship phones!

Businesses are not social entitlement programs, much to the dismay of socialists.

Amen

Elop should have been made CEO instead of Nadella

Becuase Eflop is such a successful business man. Every company he went to did amazingly well, right?
Oh wait...   Do you hate Microsoft that much?

Its too early to judge.

Damn stupid socialist really don't understand how business works.

I would not say they betrayed Finland. But I can see where they are coming from. But, I wish this whole Nokia acquisition never happened. As much as I love WP, I am really starting to question MS commitment to the platform itself. Wish NOKIA was still making their phones WP or Android. It was a great company but couple of boneheads running it ran it into the ground. I am hoping MS will show as much commitment as NOKIA showed for WP. But something tells me that it may not be the case. Glad to see other OEM's picking up WP. Hope some of them start releasing some quality hardware. Just not budget phones. for now this WP8.1 seems like a mess to say the least. My 1020 just dies in half a day & heats up like crazy.

Umm.. if that Finance Minister knew anything...  he'd know that ALL of Microsoft's Lumia development (both high-end and low-end) are still going to be designed and developered there in Finland.  He obviously didn't read Elop's message properly.

The Minister doesn't give a flying f*ck about the Lumia line. And neither should he. The only thing he knows is: Microsoft is firing people in Finland. People will lose their jobs. When people lose jobs, they stop paying taxes and get social compensations from the State. And that's bad for Finances. Period. You can rest assured the Finnish government couldn't care less about Windows Phone or Cortana or what Microsoft does with their OSs.

In the end, what exactly did Microsoft buy from Nokia? It looks like they're throwing away everything that was part of the deal.

Maybe Google is hiring. Sky seems to be the limit there. I guess we're all destined to be little sheep blindly following our Sheep Herder big 'G'.

This was a business deal.  All's fair in love, war, and business.   They are fools to expect Microsoft to do anything short of what is good for the company and it's shareholders. So far everything I've seen Nadella do is right.  He's nailed it perfectly so far.  Thank God.  Because MSFT would have been bought out by Google in less than 10 years with Balmer at the helm.   He was a dinosaur from a different century. Get rid of distractions like Nokia X and XBox Entertainment, check!   Get rid of employees you do not need, check!    Begin to refocus and move your forces to the frontline that is most vulnerable, check! Now he just needs to change the culture in MSFT to lighta fire under R&D's asses and get them to innovate.  You can't be a market leader in an industry simply by copying good ideas after they are marketed by others.  

12k employees along with help from Finland govt can rebuilt what Microsoft broke. Nokia was Nokia coz of their employees.

Nokia management ' betrayed' Finland the same way RIM management ' betrayed' Canada. Built a huge company, then drove it of the cliff by missing the next wave. Without the Microsoft purchase, Nokia would have even fewer employees today and being forced to offshore everything to China and Vietnam in order to complete for low end Android handsets.
Their own people are responsible for the loss of the old Nokia, and Microsoft is responsible for salvaging what is possible from the impending train wreck

But Nokia never promised to not to fire people. Nokia never promised investing further to Finland. Nokia never lied on purpose (?).

Lots of posters mentioning Android; Nokia would have been one out of several, and out of their element... They should have opened their eyes, focused on MeeGo and worked faster. That being said, I think Nokia has a hugely talented staff, and I think MS are making a big mistake letting these people off; their prior ineffectiveness was a result of poor leadership, not workmanship. It's a mistake by MS, and a betrayal towards their takeover responsibilities. Then again, the Finnish government has been sleeping in class, and is equally to blame...

This was a btch move on Microsoft's part headed by Nadella...

I think that Stephen Elop was sent to "kill" Nokia and make the stocks "easy target" for Microsoft. Stocks fell 40% in one year under his leadership - completely crazy! The whole thing seems very orchestrated. Anyway, just my thoughts ... But there is a trend when big American corporations buy foreign companies, they are stripped for any valuable content and all capital moved to USA. Other examples are Volvo under Ford and Saab under GM. 

MS got to do what they got to do

Even with the layoffs they've still added more staff as a result. If the market share isn't there then the staff won't be either.

No as with any acquisition, Microsoft will not need two of everything, so layoffs are necessary in becoming more competitive in a market once dominated by Microsoft.

Well, I think Windows Phone needed 2 years to get important features (bluetooth, dual-sim support, files manager support and etc.). Features that in Nokia smartphones was present. In 2012, if you were upgrading from Nokia N97 to Lumia 800, you could suffered a lot. I remember, here in Brazil, you pay expensive for a smartphone. And you don't have basic features. To take pictures, the S60's UI Camera was perfect. In WP 7.X a horrible thing. Nokia needed fast evolution to answer the market. But, Microsoft had problems to bring basic features only now with Windows Phone 8.1 And this late cost bad things to Nokia.

Nokia didn't evolve like you're accusing Microsoft of not doing, because of they did, iPhone and Android wouldn't have taken a foothold in Europe like they have. It would have need Asha, maemo, meego, or you die hard sailfin which didn't happen then and sailfin won't either.

Nokia didn't evolve like you're accusing Microsoft of not doing, because if they did, iPhone and Android wouldn't have taken a foothold in Europe like they have. It would have been Asha, maemo, meego, or you die hards sailfin which didn't happen then and sailfin won't either.

its not a charity its a business they have chose what best for them at the end of the day microsoft want to save their company change it for the better in order to compete against apple and google  

It had to be not a commitment but a contract
 

Clearly, and I'm thinking of betraying Microsoft too.....
#AndroidL

The Finnish government needed to approve acquisition of Nokia. During the time when the government would have been having their inquisition into the purchase "job security" for their own people would have been a huge issue. All governments want to stimulate the economy.

They didn't betray them, he's not a very smart chap is he? He should be smart enough to know that everytime sites get kept on after a merger. And if anyone betrayed them, it Satya direct as he's steering the ship now

The Finnish minister was naive if he though he could trust what Microsoft promised; layoffs were inevitable, Microsoft just said whatever they had to, to avoid possible political hurdles. I am just glad Nokia kept HERE Maps and their ability to resume their mobile division within a short time from the sale. The best thing would be for Nokia just to hire back the people MS is fireing and when the restriction on Mobile passes Nokia can start up a new Smartphone division.      

Was Antti Rinne really that ignorant or is he just washing his hands?  Every behemoth U.S. corporation is a venture capitalist or follows venture capitalist philosophies at the very least.  Premerger campaign promises are abundant and everyone is told exactly what they want to hear.  It's no different than Washington politics and campaign speeches.  If you elect me as president, I'll...... Lies under the guise of non-binding verbal promises.  It's all legal and why this comes as a surprise to anyone in our modern age is beyond me.  Traditional marriage vows and monogamous fidelity are a virtue of the stone age and a corporation's faithfulness to its employees is only as good as its options. Government regulation and strict legislation is our only hope in dealing with corporate predators. As the American economic environment continues to change, predators are emerging from under rocks and begin to prey on underperforming and even healthy businesses. Is there no stopping them? Will they devour us all? Congress needs to regulate corporate acquisitions, primarily to protect target companies. 1. Impose additional requirements on tender offerers.
2. Give the independent (non-employee) directors of a target company the right to veto a tender offer or the acquisition of a controlling interest, subject to reversal by a shareholder vote.
3. Require tender offerers to file “community impact statements".
4. Prohibit open market purchases by one corporation of more than 20 per cent of another’s stock.
5. Deny successful acquirers a tax deduction for interest on debt incurred to finance their acquisitions. Venture capitalists and corporate predators see waste as greater sales, corruption as power, tax escapes and consumer penalties as profit centers and unilateral control as their birthright. Our political freedoms as well as our economy is out of control.  Let's not take our eye off of those who wish to stripmine our political and economic freedoms as if its labor force had no sovereingty.  Let your voice be heard!

Well said.

Yup

So, just where is all of the billion$ that was paid to Finland's great Nokia corp gone???

It's an American company, they sack workers without cause rhyme or reason, it's part of their culture. Maybe not at Microsoft but majority of Americans are on 3rd world wages $7.25 an hour. Finland wages may shock the Americans quite a bit, they're not used to paying people so much unless they work in a bank who sell bankruptcy products.

Wow, Finland has a Minister of Layoffs?

Ever since Satya Nadela has joined as the CEO there has been no innovation in the product or mobile sector. Hope after the layoffs the company is more streamlined.

Microsoft butchered Nokia it's a clear cut fact and it's all because of Stephen Elop.

It comes with the business, but this is pretty lame. I mean MS is making billions still in profits, and I believe even exceeded expectations this year, yet has to can that many people? Could have at least left them with Nokia.

Microsoft is being run by people who have no clue as to how they can provide decent mobile devices or tablets. They should completely get out of those businesses and sell the mobile division to some Chinese for 1$.

They announced they are parking Asha, Nokia X and some other random platform I can't remember.
Probably the layoffs within Nokia are in those areas.
I'm expecting a lot of the 12.5k are ex-Microsoft heads, given Nokia's obvious culture and productivity talent in comparison.
Yes, there will always be some mistakes made in integration programmes executed at pace, but we should give MS some credit.
They are saving Nokia, Finland and Windows Phone.
Who else would have done that?

Ditch the Mexico facility and go back to Finland IMO... If employees are ok with pay cuts they can keep their jobs, but know that they need to make it worth MS while as well. Until more people buy windows phone it is hard to justify costs sadly. I love my windows phone and as a proud PPC user from the late 90s to now I am saddened by the sad state of the mobile OS

I'm still think Microsoft (or Ballmer) shouldn't buy Nokia Device division.

So, first they infiltrated that fu*khead mole to destroy the worlds 2 best mobile os,s. Then that flop just destroyed nokia meego and symbian name. Making them look absolute. Then, intentionaly along with microrobers pitthis crappy as os called wp that jist did not work. Nokia should have already fire the flop machine. It was quite obvious:ms did not want to help Nokia, and their system was a crap, top to bottom. They just force nokia to release great hardware with a crappy as OS. Of course, the os did not get traction and Nokia instead of going android, just listened to mrs Eflop till it,s dead. Now suddently 8.1 is out and does what wp should have done since the biggining of it. They did not betraied just Finland. They bitraid Europe and all Nokia fans. Now, even though i own a 1020 i can safely say. It is the first. And the last wp i will own. Hope microsoft will die soon and Nokia will recover from the biggest mistake of their lifes. Never do pact with americans, they will bomb you. Traitors and greed lives in those lands.

The board of Nokia screwed Finland. They hired Elop and had him kill Nokia. Microsoft just purchased some of the remains in the following garage sale - they never had obligations to the fins.

Were the lay offs primarily affecting Finnish employees? I would have thought Microsoft would replace most of its own staff with Finnish staff where there were duplicates.

Is it surprising that mails started being leaked when Elop was hired? It is surprising that Nokia was contributing to Windows devices growth with upto 70%? Is it safe to assume that an "Ex" Microsoft Manager was hired to Run Nokia to the ground so that Microsoft buy it for a song and then they dump the employees as they dont really need them? This just business, where bottomlines matter. Not people. My 2 cents.

It's a company. Companies don't have feelings; they're run by several people who seek to satisfy corporate objectives.  It's sad, but it's the way capitalism works. Until we find a better version for society, this is how it's gonna go.

Yes! Microsoft has most certainly betrayed Nokia!