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Microsoft’s influence on Nokia now said to be less than before acquisition deal

Although the Microsoft / Nokia agreement announced early last month caused shockwaves in the industry, many analysts have rightly been cautious about the acquisition of Nokia’s hardware division. That’s because the deal has not been finalized nor approved, by anyone, and the process is not expected to be completed until early 2014.

The question on many minds though, including our own, is what are things like now between the two companies? One stream of thought is that Microsoft and Nokia are going forward, working on devices, and that they have begun to merge divisions, knocking down those barriers that Belfiore referred to in an interview with CNET. Better phones, more exciting software, right?

However, Hal Berenson, a retired Distinguished Engineer and General Manager at Microsoft, says it is just the opposite. In an insightful blog post he notes that Microsoft is having little to no influence on anything Nokia is doing right now—in fact, it probably has less power than before the deal was announced.

The reason? Anti-trust law. The companies can plan, but they cannot execute.

According to Berenson, both companies must act like the deal won’t go forward. Therefore, any direction Microsoft might give Nokia on new hardware, like the rumored Lumia 2520 tablet, could be seen as collusion should the acquisition be denied.  Both companies need to be on their best behavior during these next few months, operating as independent businesses, while regulatory agencies pore over every aspect of the two massive organizations. Berenson goes on:

“Even some activities that the two were pursuing, or planning to pursue going into the launch of GDR3 or even WP8.1, might get scaled back as lawyers advise that they might now invite regulatory scrutiny.”

So while product lines and advancements between the two companies will be intriguing after the deal is approved, don’t expect much during these next few months. Berenson adds that this may be why Nokia can’t cancel the Lumia 2520, even if it seemingly clashes with Microsoft’s Surface 2 plans.

That’s important because of sensational articles like those found recently on Bloomberg, who wrote a report titled “Microsoft’s $7.2 Billion Nokia Bet Not Luring Apps”. The announced deal, which was barely 30-days old at the time, evidently warranted an early evaluation by Bloomberg on its success. In the trash piece, Bloomberg feigns research by interviewing “a dozen developers” and concluding “Microsoft Corp. (MSFT)’s $7.2 billion pairing with Nokia Oyj (NOK)’s handset business is failing to win over the software developers who are crucial to its success.”

The article didn’t even bother to consider the impact of BlackBerry imploding, but evidently a non-approved acquisition with no material impact was fair game.

Make no mistake, the real story between Nokia and Microsoft has not begun. So while some developers may not be “convinced”, we’re not exactly sure what they are using to evaluate the deal, since literally nothing has come of it yet.

Microsoft and Nokia have made huge strides with Windows Phone in 2013, but the real story of Microsoft’s acquisition of Nokia’s hardware division won’t happen until mid-2014. Anyone who tells you otherwise, is full of it.

Source: Hal's (Im)Perfect Vision; Bloomberg

Daniel Rubino is the Executive Editor of Windows Central, head reviewer, podcast co-host, and analyst. He has been covering Microsoft here since 2007, back when this site was called WMExperts (and later Windows Phone Central). His interests include Windows, Microsoft Surface, laptops, next-gen computing, and arguing with people on the internet.

  • Hey a 521 in the picture! Nice to see that for a change.
  • Really -_- ??
  • Yeah, check the god damn market share numbers that the 500 line has produced, you want to talk hero device status yet???
  • At least he didn't say "FIRST!!!"
  • Hahahaha, indeed!
  • I'm hoping all goes through simply cuz I would hate to see android on beautiful Nokia hardware.
  • If it goes through, you won't see beautiful Nokia hardware anymore. You do know that, right?
  • It's not the name that matters on the device, it's the team behind it.
  • To some people who grew up with Nokia, the name matters alot.
    I won't be disappointed if the deal doesn't go through, and I am a strong MS/WP supporter.
  • The deal will go through. Virtually no chance it won't.
  • I hope so too I could only image Nokia/ms phones using Ms money =bad ass phone! Not that there not already but they will be even better
  • "virtually".
    In reality, there're some chances it will. (Let us all remember that the entire Elop-action may also fall under investigation...and Europe isn't the US. CEO's can't do whatever they want)
  • I hope the deal doesn't go through. I really don't want to see Nokia and its name exit from the market. After all, I've had 11 or 12 Nokias over the past decade.
  • while I respect that you are a strong supporter of WP, and hate to inform all of the members who continually boast about the loyal Nokia supporters who purchase basically because of the name alone, "I wish all of these supporter would purchase an recommend Nokia's WP to all of their friends & family members". No disrespect to them, but if they were such a large crowd, then WP would be making headway and Nokia would not have been looking to sell the devices division.
  • Many Nokia fans left the company the day Nokia went with WP instead of Android. Others will go the day Nokia disappears. That's the harsh truth.
    Windows Phone's chances of growth were/are way better if Nokia doesn't get swallowed by MS.
  • That's not true. Eaowxiallh since they had been eyeing android as a backup OS. If the deal doesn't go throw, Nokia could very well become like HTC and Samsung with splitting their efforts between android and windows phone.
  • So they were happy to use Symbian or MeeGo but spat the dummy because they couldn't get android? Doesn't make sense
  • My first phone was a nokia with Cingular (Now AT&T)
  • Not really. Remember Sony Ericsson. I do not think so that they lost fans. For me personally when I see Sony handset voice behind the scenes ads Ericsson. Same will be with Nokia. I will be using MS phone and will always remember Nokia behind it.
  • Correct me if I'm wrong but, I think I read somewhere that Microsoft bought only the devices department of Nokia and not the R&D department, where all the great Lumia tech comes from like OIS
  • Correction: Microsoft bought "Devices and Services" division. This would include the R&D department involved with hardware. What Microsoft didnt buy was the part of Nokia responsible for mapping technologies, as well as NSN (Nokia Solutions Network, formerly Nokia-Seimens network {if im not mistaken.}). So the aquisition is similar to Google's aquisition of Motorola, where google aquired Moto's Devices & Services division and everything there in, and what was left was Motorola Solutions.
  • Ahh good to hear that. Thanks For clarifying :)
  • Actually MS will not be buying the division in-charge of the camera hardware. But Nokia will licence them the patents.
  • source? as far as im aware the division responsible for imaging is grouped under the devices part of "Devices and Services"., and it was the mapping technology being licensed.
  • I don't know whats grouped under what but Ms isn't buying any of the patents they are just licensing them. And and as far God gave me some sense all techs including ois and pureview comes under Nokia (the un-trojaned). Here is your source coz I you are so much of a fanboy not to google FYI : nokia can again make their own phone (the smart one's) even if the deal go through but only after 2015. You can apply some water on that burn.
  • What burn? I never said anything about patents, and I do Google from time to time. And that comment about Nokia can "again" make their own phone ("the smart ones"), implications that Nokia hasn't made a smartphone aside, sounds like you're outright stating that Nokia's current offerings are not true smart phones, thus making you appear as another Google (or apple) fanboy &/or WP hater. The patents may be under Nokia, but the actual team and people designing those technologies, from what I read, is a whole 'nother ballpark.
  • Nokia has multiple R&D divisions, some are transfered to MS, but the ones resposible for future tech remain at Nokia. Not sure where PureView -stuff would land, hw team might stay with Nokia, while sw might move to MS. No idea who owns the actual patents now, but I hope they stay with Nokia (and will be licenced to other vendors from next year onwards).
    Get your facts right
    FYI: NOKIA can still make thier phones after 2015.
  • ?
  • But " The team" will be subjected to the decision of a much different upper echelon.... if the deal will go through.
  • Name matters a lot. Specially in markets like Europe. The name "Nokia" alone sells. There's no way around that.
    As for the team...they would need to accept the transfer. Seeing that the designer of the Lumia line has already left the building...
  • I agree with you, DJCBS - The Nokia brand name matters alot. While I've personally had my eye on WP since 2010, there was no oem worth my money, until Nokia started making WP devices. It will be interesting to see how Lumia devices sell without the Nokia brand on future devices.
  • Yes, but why does the name matter so much?  Because the Nokia team makes great hardware.  So if the same team is still making the same great hardware, aren't consumers smart enough to understand that even under the Microsoft banner they're still getting the same great hardware that they got from Nokia? The only reason I could see people abandoning the hardware over this is if they want to make some kind of a protest statement, but not because the quality is suddenly diminished.
  • Or they just won't know that Nokia people still make the MS hw. The name drop will surely be a negative to sales, at least initially.
  • Name matters and specially here in developing countriea i.e India. Some 5 years ago some people only knew phones by the Name Nokia till know those people doesn't even know what Ms is. And when they heared Ms is going to buy Nokia you know what image did the Ms posesed a evil image. So I can give you some assurance most people ain't gona buy that thing. Nokia meant faith to us we still buy their phones not the expensive one's because they ain't worth the money software wise its what most of the Indians think thats why they buy expensive Android. And to all the fanboy's here(me too nokia) or those who want to look different chosing a niche Os because thay don't have anything much of a different in them to look so this Os ain't going to be successful if deal goes through believe me Android is much better give it a try. I have and am more than happy about it.
    And btw China and India are 2nd and 3rd largest phone markets and I dont think anybody would want to ignore them.
  • While in Asia Nokia name means a dying brand or cheap phone company. Nokia is coming back because of Windows. Android is the king here with big name like Samsung HTC and many fierce local company. Yes the name will sell but not Nokia.
  • You know nothing about Asia. Coz you aren't from Asia.
  • sorry but Nokia Branding is HUGE everywhere.
    people always call my phone a Nokia not windows phone. just like samsung.
    and what now ? Does this mean that Nokia could in fact still release a low end android phone . if they need to act like the deal is not going to happen ?
  • +1
  • No, you'll see beautiful Microsoft hardware, design by, basically, Nokia.
  • Maybe what they could do is replace Lumia with Nokia, so you would have something like the Windows Nokia 920
  • No, because ms didn't buy nokia, they bought the devices and services division.
  • If it doesn't go through you still won't see much new Nokia hardware anymore. They will be DoA within a year Android or not..
  • More like horrible speculation!
  • Call it what you will. I'm not saying I want to see the deal fall through. I have money invested in both companies and would stand to loose a bundle.
  • Warrantless speculation.
  • If the deal doesn't go through, you will not only not see the name anymore, you won't see the hardware as well. Nokia will either go bankrupt or will be acquired by one of the chinese companies. Microsoft's money was the only thing that kept Nokia from following blackberry.
  • You are right! I just hope the deal is not happening and Nokia is still independent. I love Nokia
  • Some bitter former Nokia bigwig is so incensed with Nokia being exclusive to Windows Phone and not Android that he created "Newkia" with intent on Nokia quality for the Android OS. How's that for bitterness?
  • I call that smartness. In case you're unaware, the large majority of Nokia fans wanted Nokia to go with Android and not WP. If Nokia is destroyed because of this deal, you can't blame someone for trying to capitalize from the unhappy customers, can you? ;)
  • LOL at those unhappy customers buying newkia, if they were such loyal customers then Nokia would not be in a position to sell their Devices division.
  • You know very well why Nokia is in the position of selling the Devices division. It has a name: Eflop. And you know it.
    (Also...I don't believe that "Newkia" will go anywhere. Just like WP without Nokia, Newkia lacks the consumer trust Nokia gained over the years. These things don't work only against Microsoft.)
  • Stop your delusional conspiracy theories and face the reality, no amount of hating will stop Nokia-Microsoft deal :)
  • Do you have any evidence, or are you just saying something?
    Android and Nokia is NOT a good combination. Nokia is design hardware, with quality. Android does not fit in there, because of it's messy ecosystem, UI, image etc. I am a Nokia fan since the 3310, and I would HATE them if they ever switch to something so generic and messy as Android!
  • That's because Nokia is like a president in his second term. "WHAT NOW?! YOU ALL CANT STOP ME *flips the bird*"
  • LMFAO!
  • Actually, it's usually the other way around, especially in the final year. That's why they call him a lame duck president. He doesn't have to worry about re-election, but the congress does. So, usually he can't get anything done in that final year.
  • I used to read Bloomberg but they are really bad journalist or analyst for that matter; I wonder how they still have readers.
  • I agree. Bloomberg is a joke in the business world. Mostly just read by market wannabes. They have to give away their journal now - I get at least one offer a month from them for a free subscription. It's pathetic.
  • Thats Scary in a way. When you take over a company or a piece of one unless there is something in writing you (the company) should pretty much have final say. What are we missing with this story or just not being brought to light?
  • Not sure you read the article close enough. Microsoft has not taken over anything from Nokia. Literally zero. It needs approval from shareholders, regulatory agencies, etc.  In the meantime, MS cannot give influence to Nokia because if the deal is denied--for whatever reason--then Nokia had an unfair advantage over its competitors. Get it?
  • My specific hope is that this anti-trust worry doesn't work against what they were already doing together. The whole special relationship and all.
  • Does that mean projects already in the pipe line can't be continued or expanded upon. If you have ever used an outhouse, you know the smell that this is starting to put into the wind.
  • Mr. Rubino
    Love it when you get involved in our post, gets us all excited! I read the article and the previous ones too & I understand nothing is final yet I was just commenting as if everything was said and done. I didn’t think of it as an "unfair advantage" based on their business relationship but its business and your correct. 
    I heard you when you mumbled "no rebel rouser post on my articles
  • np, didn't mean to sound snarky ;)
  • As a Nokia investor and a Lumia 928 owner. I have voted YES with my shares to have the deal go through. I believe in Nokia and put my money at risk and, so far, have been handsomely rewarded for my risk. I think the divestiture of the D&S division of Nokia will allow Wall Street to eliminate their Android and Apple bias against Nokia and allow the company's stock to continue to appreciate to fair value.
    MSFT realizes how important the Nokia build quality is to the success of WP8 (much like Apple's high build quality and design has built the iPhone empire) and with the entire Nokia team onboard, I would expect that we will continue to see killer WP8 devices coming from MSFT and that WP8 will continue to grow in the smartphone arena and eventually takeover iOS.
    The new Nokia looks to become more aggressive in the licensing of their Patents and the monetization of their HERE brands. I also believe that they are going to start making a big splash with accessories (smartwatches, location tags, etc). These accessories should fall outside of D&S imo.
    There are still exciting things coming from NOK in the future.
  • Thx for clarifying
  • Microsoft hasn't bought anything yet. They came into an agreement to buy for certain price, but the deal is several months away from being finalized. Right now they are not allowed to take control over Nokia because if they do, sale will be denied. At this moment, they are still 2 different companies.
  • Not sure why that would be the case, MS doesnt own that nokia department at this very moment, so there isn't any reason why MS would have final say.  They can collaberate as they been doing, business and usual, but they will probably stand back for now so they dont ruffle any reglulatory feathers. 
    Remembe when ATT and Tmobile merged?  So what you are saying ATT should of been able to make decisions for Tmobile even before the merger approved, guess what?  The merger failed so if ATT would of had final say and make whole sale changes in the months prior to the denial assuming the merger would of gotten approved,  It would of been a big mess. 
    Also, if MS had final say before even owning the division, not very fair for HTC and Samsung (not like they care anyway)
    Can't assume this will go through, would i bet it will? Yes i would, but this needs to go through the proper process before actually making the decisions for another company. 
  • Watch it get denied.. MS always gets screwed.
  • But not Scroogled?
  • I hope it fails!
  • Why?
  • So Microsoft doesn't kill the Nokia name.
  • For the 900th time, Nokia name will NOT be wiped out.
    Nokia will still be disp. On feature phones. R&D, mapping, and communications will still be under nokia's name, with some patents "rented" from Nokia for 10yrs by MS.
    sorry for reaction but I have to correct. :P
  • Oh yeah, you're right! I must have skipped that explanation every time I read about the acquisition over the past few weeks! /s
    I know exactly what Microsoft is purchasing with the acquisition, and the Nokia name will no longer be on high end devices. I know Nokia will continue to operate as a stand alone company, but Nokia themselves will no longer be producing devices. That is the reason why I don't want the acquisition to go through. I want "Nokia, by Nokia", not "Nokia, by Microsoft".
  • " I want "Nokia, by Nokia", not "Nokia, by Microsoft". sometimes, change is good. Maybe this will start a new golden age for MS and Nokia.
    from what I've heard, nokia's devices was not profitable enough in the future to justify the branch. MS "saved" Nokia by buying it rather than google or apple, etc.
  • to reply to your other comment,
    "Oh yeah, you're right! I must have skipped that explanation every time I read about the acquisition over the past few weeks!...I want "Nokia, by Nokia", not "Nokia, by Microsoft"."
    just elaborate more from your first comment, that way I know. Haven't seen you before in the comments, thought you came in just for an article or two. ;)
  • Sorry to crush your dreams buddy. There is virtually no chance that it will get denied. The shareholders are more than happy with the skyrocketing stocks now because of the acquisition.
  • I don't want it to get denied. I want it to go through...
  • As far as i know. Nokia needs the money to help pay for the NSN acquisition. So they need to push trough or Nokia will be doomed.
  • Delay in 8.1 WP hopefully not
  • Bloomberg is full of it. It hasn't even been long enough since Microsoft announced their intention to buy Nokia, plus they aren't even thinking of the worldwide wide gains WP has made and only of the US. On top of that we haven't seen the new things coming out of Nokia's final independent event. Once MS and Nokia can make their first move together I'm sure developers will be at the very least interested in the new hardware.
  • Developers won't be interested in the hardware just because of the merger. The only thing that interests major developers is the OS marketshare. If WP stays the same, developers will stay away from it. If marketshare increases over the next 12 months, developers will come.
  • While I don't disagree with your point I think that nice hardware could be enough to attract *interest* to the platform. As WP and WinRT converge those who have worked on Apps for Windows 8 will have less of a hurdle to get into the market.
  • They could be basing the analysis on Nokia's own proxy materials. If you read them, Nokia makes very clear that there's the possibility that, if the acquisition goes forward, their current and future clients and customers will lose trust not only in Nokia but in the entire system around it.
    Let's face it: the deal is only good to Microsoft in the US. And in what concerns the acquisition of a D&S division without bothering to build one from scratch. From the Nokia side, there's little to almost nothing to be gained. They receive money. However, as Nokia herself admits, there's zero warranty that they'll even be able to go on if the D&S goes away.
    Then there's the consumer point of view. If Nokia goes, there's a really big chance that current Nokia Lumia owners will not continue with Windows Phone. Why? The lack of OS development is a factor (albeit hopefully minor once 2014 arrives) but the lack of Apps is another. It's more than the lack of Instagram. It's about making sure they get all the hip Apps at the same time as other platforms.
    Without Apps and without the brand people trust - Nokia - they'll simply go away to more trendy OEM's and OS's (being Apple and Samsung the ones who benefit from this). Nokia also admits that as a risk to their shareholders. And it's a real risk, specially in the European market. And if the customers go...well, obviously the developers will also not be going to "waste" their time developing for a platform that albeit being the 3rd place, is still a small 3rd place, with prospects of growing smaller (and the implosion of BB will probably not benefit WP enough)
    As for the amount of current influence of Microsoft on Nokia...yeah, sure. They'll be more careful now. But I'm pretty sure Microsoft will still try to boss around, even if very very discreetly.
  • "They could be basing the analysis on Nokia's own proxy materials."
    That's exactly what they didn't do. And Nokia's hardware business was thought to be unsustainable in a few more quarters--they would have run out of cash and either gone belly up or been bought out. Microsoft had to buy them to save them in the long term.
  • Precisely. Nokia has everything to gain, as do the shareholders (stock is hovering around $7 today, over 100% increase since the announcement). The deal fails, the stock plummets and Nokia will basically be parted out like an old DC-10 in the Arizona desert. As both an employee and shareholder, I sure won't vote against the deal. I am liking my newfound liquidity. :)
  • I hope you're an employee of the D&S division of Nokia. Otherwise I urge you to start looking at other jobs if the deal goes through. And...sell your shares now. Whatever the outcome of this is, your shares will go down.
  • Yes, by all means, take job and financial advice from random, anonymous strangers on the internet named 'DJCBS'. Sound advice! LMAO
  • Sure, don't take it. What do I care, I'm not the one with my job jeopardized...LMAO
  • the remainder of nokia (HERE, the r&d and the patents) is the PROFITABLE part of nokia. why jump ship from a company which is profitable and just recieved 7bilion dollars?
  • For something to be profitable, they need clients to whom sell their services. And lets say, prospects aren't nice.
  • Well probably thats the reason Nokia was considering an Android phone and surely a Nokia android phone would have matched sales figures of an iphone or SGS3 and the it would have brought in the required cash as well as bumped the share up but MS would have lost WP forever which is exactly they were forced to buy nokia, isnt it?
    A good amount of WP users (excluding US) bought a Nokia and not a WP. I'm quite unsure what are MS plans currently but if it lets go of Nokia's name on the device surely it would affect sales in EU/SE Asia. The reason 520 is success in countries like India is because most ppl buying then come from years of using Nokias and are mostly first time smartphone users or symbian converts.
  • surely a Nokia android phone would have matched sales figures of an iphone or SGS3...
    What evidence is there of that?  That is like me saying "Surely a nicely designed phone like the HTC One will match sales figures of an iPhone or SGS3" - before we knew that didn't happen. 
    There is simply no evidence that Nokia would have been sucessful at Android, and I would say there is more evidence that they would not have been - every other Android vendor that is not Samsung... Unfortunately/Forunately (eye of the beholder), we will most likely never know.
  • Dear American friend:
    Do not evaluate things based in the US scenario. In Europe, unlike the US, Nokia was (and still is in some countries) the biggest phone OEM. The Nokia brand alone has a long tradition of quality.
    The reason why Nokia lost the smartphone-train was tardiness and the choice of a less popular OS. When Nokia turned to smartphones, Android was already on the market and was already a very popular OS. The most logical option would have been to join the most popular OS on the market - Android - with the most popular OEM - Nokia.
    That didn't happened. So people started to look for other options. That's when Samsung came along. But believe me, if you do a market search next to Samsung-users in Europe and ask something like:  "If Nokia produced phones with Android, would you buy them or remain with Samsung?" the majority of answers would be in favour of Nokia.
    Nokia lives in the memory of every phone user in Europe, even if some or many of them have moved away. They did it not because Nokia's hardware was bad. They did it because the software was obsolete. The choice of Windows Phone didn't helped changing that perception. While it gained back some users who had left, the OS itself kept away and drove away others.
    Nokia devices with Android would have high changes of making Samsung's reign - at least in Europe - start to crumble. Eflop decided to go another course. And now here we are.
  • Also the big US has no clue who Nokia is. Sony, well known brand so far is having a hard time penetrating the US with their Android phones. I bet if Nokia went Android, they'd financially crash.
  • if you are comparing Nokia ti HTC then you simply donot have any idea of Nokia's popularity, outside US
  • Why the hell you don't understand there is a world outside USA and believe me you know nothing about the other part of the world and sure Daniel also don't know about it and my fellow American you don't know a thing about Nokia as well. You may have been fan of Windows phone for year or a two but in the alien part of the world there are people whose inspiration is Nokia itself following it for almoat 15 yrs. If my mom asks me for a hone I know it can't be other than Nokia. People have started their career writing about tech just bcoz of Nokia. But I know you people can't understand I I don't expect it from umericans who gets more exicted about miley cyrus going nude rather than Syria getting bombed by USA to stop a war. How ironical.
  • Ironical?? Just FYI, my first 3 cell phones were Nokias, back in the mid-late 90s, when Nokia ruled global market share. You have no idea what I know or who I am. I guess when you don't have facts, just start screaming nonsense. Bombing Syria and Miley....Really?
  • And you still stand here and comparing Nokia and Htc for a scenario. And btw in india evrybody's first phone was a Nokia and count may go beyond it.
  • Except they're not really saving anything, are they? They're basically ripping the core of a company under the disguise of saviours. It's pretty much the same as saying to a very sick person "look, where's going to take of your heart to save you in the long term". It simply can't happen.
    Nokia is very clear about that. The removal of the D&S will not give any warranty of sustainability let alone growth of their remaining divisions.
    Nokia's hardware business was currently unsustainable. True. But then again, enters the WP exclusivity. You can bet your money many many shareholders (and even some members of the BoD) attribute that unsustainablility to the fact that they went with WP instead of the obvious popular choice. 
    Which is why this entire deal is stupid. Either Microsoft should have bought Nokia as a whole (instead of splinting it up) or they should have not moved a finger. Currently, IF the deal goes through, no one will end up gaining anything in the long term.
  • Except they're not really saving anything, are they?
    I am not sure their employees would agree.
    Nokia's hardware business was currently unsustainable. True. But then again, enters the WP exclusivity. You can bet your money many many shareholders (and even some members of the BoD) attribute that unsustainablility to the fact that they went with WP instead of the obvious popular choice.
    As I said in a previous statement, there is no evidence to support the claim of "the obvious popular choice" changing their fortunes...none.  I would argue there isn't an obvious popular choice.  There are 2 manufacturers dominating the smartphone market right now, not 2 OSes.
  • Market search. Do it if you want proof. Nokia sure did in the meantime...why do you think they started testing Android on Lumias this year? Out of fun? don't need to go that far. Just go to their FB page. See the amount of people still asking for Android on Nokia. Uhh you have 2 manufacturers: Apple who only runs iOS. And Samsung, that runs Android (except in Korea where they're also testing their own OS). There are 2 OS's dominating the market.
    You can try to circle it the way you want, it won't change those facts. Whether Nokia could have surpassed Samsung? With the same amount of time they spent carrying WP on their backs, they would for sure have molded Android into their own special awesome version.
  • Not out of fun, no. Out of desperation. And decided they would have no better luck than Sony (also once had huge market share and brand loyalty in their neighborhood), HTC, Motorola, and on and on. You are pipe-dreaming. Even if they had a million people crying about Android on their FB page, a million in sales is a drip in global market share. I get it, you are an android fanboy masquerading as a Nokia fan. That doesn't mean Android Lumias would have sold in the numbers needed to keep them alive. If market research told them otherwise, it would be so. It didn't and so it wasn't.
  • Dude...really....GET OUT OF AMERICA-WORLD. Jesus Christ. No, I'm not an Android fanboy. I am, proudly, a Nokia fanman (my age doesn't allow me to use the term "boy" anymore). And the proof that I am a Nokia fan is that I'm still buying their phones even though WP was a huge disappointment to me (yes, I also had faith in Microsoft once). They started out of desperation. Yeah. 'cause they needed to sell and grow. And Windows Phone wasn't giving them that. They were producing phone after phone after phone but people were not buying into the OS. So they realized they betted on the wrong horse.
    Was it an absolute certainty that they would rule on Android? No. But they had way better chances of doing that than on rulling the market with WP. By the way...when I said "get out of America-World"? I wasn't refering exclusively to your complete ignorance and lack of understanding of the impact Nokia has outside the US.
    I was also refering to your statement about Sony.
    Again, although Sony strugles in the US, they are doing quite well in markets like Europe.
  • I hate to burst your Euro-bubble, but no manufacturer cares about single geographic market performace.  Not the US market, not the Euro market, not the Asian market.  They care about the Global market because of the costs envolved in designing and manufacturing smartphones, and the cost saving you get buying parts in massive bulk.  Sony doesnt crack the top 5.  They get beat by Samsung, Apple, LG, Lenovo and ZTE, and likely several others. Nokia either, for that matter and LG, Lenovo and ZTE don't even crack double digit percentages.

    As I said before, 2 manufacturers rule the smartphone world, not 2 OSes, and you can't possibly find evidence that Nokia running Android, in a huge field of Android failures, would have changed anything. For you to claim otherwise, absent any facts to back the claim, can only be bias.
  • My first WP was a NL800 and I bought not because of WP but I wanted that design, I wanted to buy a N9 but it wasn't launched in my country so went for NL800. And again dont compare Sony to Nokia, popularity of Sony in mobiles again is not close to Nokia.
  • Can you read?  The comparision wasn't Sony to Nokia...It was non-Samsung Android manufacturers to Samsung... the comment about being popular in their own neighborhood was because they had/have huge brand loyalty in Japan, and once globally.
  • Sony was never strong in mobiles, Nokia's popularity in mobiles cannot be compared to sony or htc and also it is not long lost, even today every samsung user I see says he has no other good option other than samsung and ends up saying I wish nokia brought an android. I havent seen HTC strong in marketing and sony xperia line was unpopular because of bad battery life etc amongst other problems.
    anyways no point in arguing over something that will never happen now :)
  • A lot of people in europe have not used microsoft hardware. I have used a lot of microsoft hardware and most of it has been well designed. I even had a microsoft router that was outpowering everybody elses in the neighborhood. at the time it had good features with an easy to use gui.
    I feel the phone hardware will not be as bad as people make it out to be.
  • That's actually not true. Microsoft has sold keyboards, mouses and web-cams in Europe for decades (actually, the keyboard and mouse I'm using now are both Microsoft's. Even my web-cam is Microsoft). That doesn't mean people like them. The phone's hardware may not be bad. The Surface is actually a very good quality tablet (with crap specs on purpose). But they won't be able to match Nokia's quality. And even if they do...people will still NOT trust Microsoft. The trust-relationship Nokia has build with their customers will NOT transfer to Microsoft just because they buy a D&S division.
    Microsoft-fans have a problem admitting this but the fact is: the general public still looks at Microsoft with suspicion. And that's Microsoft's fault.
  • This guy... the one with an iPhone on pre-order.
  • The only one around here with an iPhone is actually Daniel. I don't have it. I left it up your mother's bottom last time I visited her. It was the first time someone paid her with something worth so much money.
  • This is how I see things, we really don't know what the final outcome will be.  Microsoft may keep the Nokia name.  If so, then the two names will bring more consumers to WP.  Let's just say that there is no more "Nokia" as in the name, the hardware is still there, so what's is the problem?  Could it be that general public wants to see Microsoft fail.....if so, why?  I have been a WP user for 2 1/2 years now and I just got my first Nokia in June.  Before my 928, I had the Trophy and I was not impressed with the hardware.  Nokia went all-in with Microsoft and I look at it as the best move they could have made.  Let's all calm down with this Buy-Out and wait until it is final.  It's clear that Microsoft needed to appeal to the masses, hence Nokia.  Nokia has always made the best hardware.  Now with the table coming out, Microsoft is going after the iPad and Android users.
  • Well DJCBS I have read all the comment on this article and belive me all Indians would have kissed you for your write ups if they could. And to all Americans you need to get the hell out of that america ASAP. And I am just loosing control just by watching your comments how limited your knowledge is about the alien part of the world.
  • Kissed him?  India is the rape capital of the world, they would have done more than kiss him.
    Stop with all the America hate on this page.  I have ignored it until now, but it is irrelivant to the discussion.  It isn't America not knowing or carring about what your country likes or wants, it is electronics manufacturers, apparently.  And for good reason - they go out of business catering to you.
  • Love the article Dan!
  • Agreed and it would be really interesting to see what happens once everything is said and done.
  • I just had a thought, as a tester for learning how to trade stocks I dumped about $100 into Nokia when they were super low.  I now have a couple hundred over that of course, but since that's Nokia stock and MS bought the part of Nokia that I felt had the value, that probably means my Nokia stock is going to dive again once the devices part transitions over to MS right?
  • That would already have happened. Nokia (the services company) is getting $7.2B in cash plus they have Siemens and a plan ahead--it's smart, imo, to keep money with them.
  • Daniel, what would be the chance presently of such a deal being denied by shareholders and the whole shebang collapsing? Does anyone have a reasonable answer at the moment, or is that just too early to tell?
  • None
  • I agree, there's very little chance this will fail.
  • If it fails, I may cry.
  • Good to see some positivity. I had a feeling that it was a high certainty from the bits i have read here and there but hey, three cheers for WP all the same.
  • 50/50
  • I hope it fails since I voted no on the proxy. Microsoft should buy the whole company or none at all. It's pretty disturbing that the NOKIA label/brand is going away especially after all the innovations done, and its brand awareness in the rest of the world.
  • nokia builds phones, network tech, maps and holds patents. why would ms want all of that? they only want the devices and a couple of patents.
  • Just to keep the brand there. It's purely emotional, I know.
  • i do understand how you feel. i want a nokia phone in the future but it wont be. it will be a ms phone. however, if i understand it correctly, in 2016 nokia will be allowed to make phones again. small hope though.
  • Yes they wouldn't be allowed to make their own "Nokia" devices until December 31st 2015, and from licensing the brand for mobile phones for 30 months from the date of the closing deal.
    Not that long away, but the people who make those devices (Devices and Services) will have been absorbed by Microsoft anyway. Who would be left to make a Nokia device at that time. :(
  • They could do what Google did with Motorola. Microsoft would buy Nokia. Then they would sell all the parts that don't interest them.
    Though, honestly, I don't see why Microsoft shouldn't keep things like HERE. It's hard to compete with Google Maps etc, but they would have there a much better platform upon which to build stuff for Windows platforms.
    Network tech would allow them to further develop and innovate within their ecosystem, allowing them to branch out of personal use to a much larger scale, including companies and scientific research facilities.
    The D&S...Microsoft will not profit from that without the Nokia branding there. No matter how hard they try, "Nokia" is a stamp of quality in the mobile world that Microsoft can't achieve all of a sudden just because they bought the people from Nokia. Nokia doesn't have a single division that Microsoft couldn't benefit from. Microsoft, however, seems to have pretty dumb people in charge. That's why this deal is crap and I'm so viscerally against it.
  • As a Nokia fan and customer for over 15 years: THANK YOU.
    I honestly agree with you. Nokia gains nothing by splitting the company. If Microsoft had bought everything (like Google did with Motorola) it would have been way more beneficial to both companies. Apparently some still fail to see that.
  • Now that's what I call a damn good piece of analysis and writing right there, Daniel! I am impressed.
  • Thanks, I have my moments ;)
  • Time will only tell. But i wouldn't be shocked if it didn't go through
  • Let me ask a basic but relevant question here.....Irrespective of what happens at buisness level, are gonna get our updates in time ? Gdr3, bittersweet, blue 8.1. Do you see any impact there ?
  • No impact either way. Business as usual.
  • Can quarterly earnings report make change once nokia gets profit again? Possibly if the profit is more than enough for each share holders.
  • I would actually think in the mid to long term that the merger if/when approved and consummated will speed up time to market and innovation. You will have the Nokia devices and services division with backing from Microsoft one of the largest far reaching companies in the world. We already heard in the past that Nokia wanted to speed up turn around on new features and updates and now their engineers are going to be hands on with OS development. It might be optimistic but I can envision a scenario which is fully plausible where we could see WP seriously ramping up speed to market and the incorporation of some great innovation from ex-Nokia engineers as well as more urgency placed on dev support by summer 2014. Of course this is pure speculation but exciting thoughts for this WP supporter.
  • "You will have the Nokia devices and services division with backing from Microsoft" You won't have Nokia devices and services. You'll have Microsoft devices and services.
    Now think about the Surface. See if you're still that optimistic.
    Also, remember: outside the US, the "Nokia" brand holds way way much more power in the phone business than the tarnished image of Microsoft outside of it. These are things Americans normally disregard because in the US, Nokia doesn't have the power it has in Europe and Asia.
  • I am not talking about translation to sales though in this commentary, I am talking about product cycle, innovation and time to market. While I do sort of agree on the geographic distinction being that I'm English living in USA I have a somewhat unique perspective and there are a lot of yanks who do value the Nokia brand. It will be up to (god forbid) MSFT to highlight Nokia's teams' involvement in future designs I guess.
  • So true DJCBS, and no disrespect to my American brethren, but they haven't got a clue, in regards to how respected the Nokia brand name is in Europe -- I know 10 people with Nokia Lumia phones, and everyone of them got their phones because of the Nokia name and not WP8 -- come on, the average consumer wants to consume, and WP8 isn't exactly a complete ecosystem yet like IOS and Android, to be able to do that. Therefore, it doesn't take a genius to work out that people in Europe buy WP8 because of the Nokia name -- Microsoft and a lot of American fans need to realise that the rest of the world exists -- just look how rubbish Bing is in Europe. Furthermore, you only have to look at Bing rewards to see how short sighted Microsoft are, as they are not available in the UK. I think Microsoft's obsession to be the next Apple in the mobile phone world, is going to backfire big time in Europe when they kill the Nokia name -- everyone needs to remember it was the Nokia name who put WP8 on the map in Europe, not Microsoft. Also, just because the same Nokia team will be designing future Microsoft phones, doesn't mean the average consumer in Europe will still buy their phones. When VW bought Skoda and Seat, it took them years for European consumers to warm to them because both companies brand names were rubbish, even though their models were virtually identical to VW. Basically what I'm saying is Microsoft are going to have hard time selling their own branded phones in Europe because they are more known for being a software company -- it doesn't matter if they make the strongest, best built phones in the world, if their brand name is no recognised in terms of hardware, they won't sell jack!
  • Precisely.
    The Volkswagen example is a really good one (it didn't occurred to me...and I actually own a Volkswagen! lol shame on me :P)
    Microsoft is way too US-centered. Just look at Microsoft Stores. They want to become a devices company...and only open stores in the US? They rather open a Store in some God-forsaken land in the middle of the US than to open one in London, Berlin or Tokyo. How dumb is that?
  • Very dumb mate. All that hard work to get WP8 recognised in Europe and Asia, 'may' be wasted -- only time will tell..
  • A little off-topic: has anyone any idea how the third quarter has panned out for Nokia, especially in the context of its devices division? My guess is they have shipped more Lumias than in the 2nd quarter, because all of a sudden I am seeing more and more Lumias out in the wild these days here in India.
  • Nokia with millions more will only equal better devices that are better connected with other devices like hope fully my future Xbox one!
  • i hope it gets approved we don't need more android on the market  just imagin MS and nokia hardware in one ultimate phone
  • Whatever the case is,,,leave it.. I just want it to grow so that we can get some good apps and games... Microsoft is just doing "chutiapa""
  • I'm hoping for the reverse, that Nokia have the influence to spur Micorsoft in to quicker, feature rich releases, set better functional and creative requirements UX wise, and deliver more functional and robust OS-bound apps, such as XBOX music and syncing. These are Nokia's strengths, I would hope that MS would capitalize on them that way.
  • 2520 with lte for the win
  • As far as developers are concerned right now, the most important outcome of this deal is Microsoft showing how far it is willing to go with WP.
    Before this deal I heard devs saying Microsoft doesn't really care about WP and will kill it off soon (and the same was said about RT, so they weren't talking about a merge of the two). After this deal was announced, devs know this isn't the case.
    Microsoft's problem with developers has more to do with perceptions about the company. There are devs who hate Microsoft so much, they won't touch their platforms, even if it ends up costing them money/business
  • MS needs to put everything on hold until they can get in there full force and start making some phones people want to buy.
  • Long Live Newkia 
  • I've been on the windows phone bandwagon since the very beginning but I would really hope this deal doesn't go through . It's bad for Windows Phone !! 
    1. One of the main reasons why Windows Phone had a fighting chance was because of NOKIA , I talked a few people into getting a windows phone and the single most convincing factor was the Nokia brand... Not Windows Phone... Not Microsoft.. I have a funny suspicion that once Nokia is out of the door things will move from bad to worse. 
    2. Nokia worked very hard to get a lot of apps into the Windows Phone ecosystem , and I mean good apps.. not only that but they also made a lot of apps to fillup the gap in windows phones lack of functionality.. ( Nokia reader , Nokia Music , Ringtone maker , Nokia Drive , Nokia Maps  etc) . I don't see Microsoft fighitng as hard as Nokia did . 
    3. Microsoft is notoriously America-centric  which isn't a bad thing until you consider the geographical distribution Windows Phones's market share . The US market share has been stagnant while other areas like Europe/Middle East/South America  has been growing. I have a funny suspicion that Microsoft will play less emphasis on the other markets and focus on the US market ( like they have always done with their products eg Bing  ) and in the midst of that lose the little marketshare that they have in other parts of the world.
    4. Nokia being an outsider ensured that they could put pressure on Microsoft to do certain things that they normally wouldn't do . A good example is the support for 720p/dualcore .. Nokia had to impress on Microsoft to quicken development to support those. Once Nokia is out of the door MS will start doing things at their own pace which will be bad for the OS ! 
    5.  Another reason why Nokia being an "outsider" is/was a good thing is that  they are able to judge what MS offers and complement their efforts .... A good example is Nokia Music and Xpress Browsers. I think  MS will cancel these in favor of Xbox Music and IE respectively 
    Someone will argue that it is the same people from Nokia who will be working under Microsoft .. which is quite true, however it isn't quite the same ( differerent compnaies do things differently) . Microsoft will try to influence how Nokia works and acts. They'll try to infuse their corporate culture into  them and within a few quarters they're become just like every other Microsoft division. 
    I don't see how anyone who loves windows phone should be happy about this ! The only way I can see this deal working out well is if the newly acquired Nokia smartphone division is allowed to operate semi-autonomous like Google / Motorola or even Microsoft /Skype! 
  • So true, it's like Microsoft are willing to lose sales in the rest of the world, just to try make WP8 successful in the U.S.A -- total madness if you ask me, especially when Microsoft isn't really an hip brand, with young and old consumers here in the UK. Saying that, all I ever here my teenage sons and their friends talk about is IOS and Android in phones, and (believe it or not) Ubuntu -- in fact, they mentioned WP8 once, and that was they wanted to trade their Lumia phones for iPhone 4s (not going to happen, if I can help it). These are future potential customers, when they come of age that Microsoft will lose because of the bad experience (lack of apps) they have had -- you know the saying "first impressions last".
  • Yeah I'd love to see the Nokia name retained
  • This is not surprising as this is how M&A process works. The two companies are supposed to operate as if nothing happened until the merger closes. Only a few people under NDA are allowed to work on the merger planning in a clean room environment. This is to protect each other in case merger fails or one side walks out.
  • I agree that the Bloomberg piece was a hatchet job and was an idiotic read...
  • it will go over and for the better. ios7 not what it was cracked up to be. apple is slipping imho unless it increases screen size they will be in trouble in 2014. andriod i don't care for i have a galaxy tab 10.1 i bought just to see if i could get use to it. in case i bought a andriod phone. but after 4 months with it i'll stay with WP and my 920. if your into all things windows then the WP is the perfect choice
  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Microsoft also agreed to use the Nokia name for phones for the next ten years? That should eliminate concerns about the branding...
    I really hope Microsoft doesn't screw this up.
  • That's ten years for feature and budget phones aka mobile phones, though Microsoft staed that smartphones will not use the Nokia name but that was a unsure statement because if Microsoft goes that way for smartphones, they know they will lose new smartphone marketshare in the process because of the previous Windows screw-ups which they did with Windows Phone as well that caused a big distrust between Microsoft and us, their users.
    Also so long as Steve Ballmer is the CEO of Microsoft, he can do anything he wants with the company and Bill Gates despite being the founder and Executive Chairman cannot do anything about it but shut up, listen to what Ballmer says during business meetings and give opinions, that's all.
  • From what I've read about the deal, Microsoft only has limited rights to use the 'Nokia' name as a brand on devices; it will only extend to Nokia's current line up feature phones.
    Future Windows Phones can't use 'Nokia' branding; Microsoft *is* buying the rights to the 'Lumia' name, though I'm not sure how effective or relevant that is.
  • Microsoft can improve Nokia and make probleme to the flagship smartphones of samsung like the galaxy s4 and the samsung galaxy note 3
  • The deal was not only essential to save Nokia but even more essential to save Windows phone IMO.  It would have been a killer if the primary manufacturer of Windows phones had gone under or been bought by someone who planned on moving in another direction.  Microsoft had little choice and regulators will have to recognize how much it will hurt competition if the deal isn't approved.  I agree with Daniel.  This deal will happen.  Just a matter of time.