Microsoft brings Android OS development for Surface Duo in-house by hiring Movial employees

Ok so the strategy is clear now. Microsoft will use Android as it's mobile platform but customise it heavily with things like Microsoft launcher, Your Phone connectivity etc. This gives the best of both worlds on mobile...a full compliment of apps available via Android but a Microsoft flavoured OS that integrates fully with Office etc. It's taken a while and been a bit of a mess in the meantime but with the Movial team being absorbed it's becoming clear and this looks like a good approach to me

Agreed. What you have essentially described is pretty much every flagship Samsung since the S10 (or even sooner).

"Integrates with Office*, what does that mean and how will it be different than any other Android phone?

"Microsoft flavoured OS" - aside from EU it isn't technically possible and even there it is unlikely that Microsoft will license Android in EU and pay Google for every phone sold as I am not aware that anyone does that though it is technically possible now. Google licensing terms of the free version (and that is the only version in most of the world) mean that it will be ALWAYS 'Google flavored OS'. You may add some secondary flavors but they won't be primary ever.

No NFC is a hard pass, albeit I would never moved on a G1 device anyway.

For some this is a real issue, while for others this is a non-issue. For me personally I could not care less.

Waiting for gen2 like everybody else. I won't be an early adopter this time.

but it won't have gen 2

Hahaha.... I promise I was not laughing because it is not funny

I just hope microsoft don't create an Android fork like Amazon did on their fire tablets. one thing though, no wireless charging, no nfc, no deal.

"I just hope microsoft don't create an Android fork like Amazon did on their fire tablets"
I hope they do, and have been wondering why that was not explored.
That way, developers just compile their apps.
MSFT can control the store, and changes that suites MSFT best

Good luck bringing developers to the new store.

I hope so too but it is not so easy because of Google Play Services, a lot of apps depend on it.

They didn't. They said in the announcement it would have Google Play.

Okay, now Windows 10X can run x86 emulated and even ARM64 emulated according to latest reports if I'm not mistaken. It is also capable to run with a high compatibility ratio Linux apps. Say what you want, I am expecting them to announce when Windows 10X is released that "oh, btw this also runs Android apps emulated".

Developing for Windows then becomes totally pointless. That would certainly be the end.

Not at the begining. But with consumers onboard, the story could become a little different.

Huh? If they support Android apps, then developers don't need to create apps for Windows. They can just target Android and ignore Windows. That strategy has never worked for anyone. They need to make 10X amazing to use and then price it properly. Attract developers by giving them access to an engaged user base. That is the only way to get dedicated developers. Build it, make it great, and they will come. Supporting Android apps is conceding the market from the start.

I understand the hesitance and reservations that everyone is exerting when it comes to first generation products, but when was the last time the Surface team produced a First Gen that didn't deliver? Surface Book (gen 1) good product. Surface Laptop (gen 1) good product. Surface Headphones (gen 1) good product. I think the days of premature launching of devices are over especially when it comes to the "Surface" brand. I'll be in line to get a gen 1 and I'll let you know what you're missing ;).

The first-gen Surface Book had a lot of problems with driver issues and battery drain. We had one at my work, and it had an issue where it just wouldn't connect to WiFi until a later update fixed it (though it was used by a remote employee who didn't report this issue for a long while, so I was unable to test other solutions). The Surface Headphones were overpriced and failed to meet the standards of the competition, in terms of audio quality and ANC quality, while costing the same or more. None of those examples are of products that have really taken off and been successful in their markets. They're all either super-niche or also-ran products sold at a price premium. I wouldn't look at them as signs MS will do it right the first time and warrant the high price tag. They're playing is insanely safe with the hardware and taking forever to put it out, but I suspect the software will still be riddled with bugs and the "playing it safe" route with the hardware is taking away a lot of convenience features like Qi and NFC, so it's a tough sell to the majority of potential customers.

I think you took my comment a little out of context. I was simply stating that the "Surface" brand has lately provided good products. By definition I'm implying that they satisfied what they advertised they'd do. All products have flaws, but there wasn't any glaring flaws. The pricing of a product has nothing to do with the mechanisms of the product, but marketing. You can throw the Surface earbuds into that catergory. I have them and though they are overpriced, they are a great product.

used the Surface headphones for the first time yesterday. Good sound quality and like how I can turn sound down with the headphone dial instead of pulling out my phone/computer.

This device has been in development for years, too, so the hardware should be pretty mature for a gen1 product. And the OS should be mature, since it's Android 10.

I think the issue is the office apps and how they work on the Duo. To what extent Android had to be changed for dual screens is also a concern. Gen 1 will be an "old" phone. Using last years technology. But a phone should last 3 years plus. So you are really buying a 1 year old model. I would want the early adopters to run the OS and apps through their paces before I buy one. I think I will buy the Surface 7 (i5/128) bundle (key pad and pen) at Costco for $799. my Surface Pro 5 is a little long in the tooth.

As a day one owner of the sp7 I'd advise against it. I've owned an sp 2,4,6, and 7. Performance is not markedly better than the 6 and battery life is terrible. It's not that it's just bad, it's terrible. There are many many forums and complaints about 3 to 5 hour battery. Mine has been averaging 3 hours for weeks. Microsoft says it's something I'm doing, but it'll happen right after a complete system reset. I'm not alone either, and as mentioned there are a great many users with issues. They also overheat. If I plug mine in when the battery is below 20% and use it while charging it'll overheat and shutdown. Again, I'm not alone in that, and many, many people have issues with heat.
I'd like to blame Intel for its ice lake implementation, but much of this is Microsoft fault. The sp7 is not a device worth the price, and I'd sell mine in a heartbeat if I could get my money back on it.

For me, it's less about concern of it being a gen 1 and more that THIS gen 1 lacks some relatively important features like NFC and wireless charging.

But that really differs per person whether that is important or not. Its not like a bad screen on a flagship that e.g. would impact every potential user for the device. Still agree with you in the regard that the price should be severely lower than a samsung fold device.

Yeah but swap Book with Go and you make a better argument I think. Book 1 was cool but did have problems, but also not surprising because of its uniqueness and complexity (especially laptop cpu in thin screen/tablet). I think the Duo while still complex is a less radical product innovation (/360 degree hinges has been successfully used for years now, even on e.g. chinese 7 inch Windows devices).

I feel bad for them. Start updating those resumes and prepare for Microsoft to give up less than 2 year in.

OMG you're the new bleached! A void in my life has been filled.

I try to stick around, but it is getting hard. Microsoft news isn't interesting anymore.

You jynxed it, he's back now

Bleach has lots of goons here on WC. ^.^

@Kadcidxa, I'm with Andrew G1. With the exception of the original Surface RT (which also predates the current leadership team), I believe all other Surface products have survived and grown over time. Notice, for example, that the Band, which was originally expected to be the Surface Band, did not bear that branding. So while I agree with you about MS as a whole having the tenacity of a puppy in the post-Bill Gates days, the Surface team has persevered to success on every line it launched and branded. I understand the G1 concerns from others, not so much because it's the first attempt, but because we know what's missing from the spec sheet: NFC, wireless charging, only an 11MP camera. But to suggest that this is a dead-end at this stage and that those new Android developer jobs won't last shows a lack of understanding of how Microsoft handles its branding, products, and software development.

It's not that it's falling short on specs, it's that it's going to fall short on specs and be one of the most expensive products on the market. No NFC, no Qi, no headphone jack, 11 MP camera (and MS isn't known for doing good camera software), super-high price, year-old internals, no 5G for long-term viability on the four-figure device. Really, the problem is that this thing's specs read like a mix between mid-range and low-end hardware, but it's going to cost as much as a Galaxy S20 5G. You're going to be a paid beta tester missing a bunch of features. Then, they'll expect you to pay $1,500 again in 12-18 months for the iteration that actually has the features a premium phone typically provides.

I bet it is $699 or $799 starting. They won't go much higher with the current specs and bezels.

How do you know the pricing already?

Really difficult to say now what the pricing will be. I think if it will be similar to for example a galaxy s or note it might be an interesting buy. Yes the specs (except for screen) will be worse but probably good enough and you would effectively get a galaxy fold for less money. (of course there is that lg fold phone but it does not support a pen, is not cheap too and has somewhat weak support for multi screen usage).

I think the OnePlus approach is similar to the Duo. $800 give or take. I think MSFT just wants to get this phone out in the wild. However, If you sell Gen 1 for $800, can you price Gen 2 for $1000? I new iPhone 11 with 128 GB is $750. I new oneplus is about $800. The top end Samsung is $1500. Can MSFT hold the price at $800 through Gen 3? new cameras, new processors, new screens etc.?

Wow, you so optimistic.
I guess less than a year, they will kill every Duo project. After its failure of course.

Sorry but it has to have NFC and wireless charging. No deal otherwise for me.

Yeah ... I need wireless charging. And a better-than-decent camera. But the idea of a foldable phone with pen support is very intriguing to me.

"premium smartphone" territory?, how ? with the specifications missing from this device, I would think Microsoft couldn't possibly price it anywhere near that, yes it's a newish form factor, and new ways of usage, other than that not much, some of the decisions Microsoft have made I can understand, especially for a first generation device, the SoC, the ram, even the limited possible storage of 64 gigabyte, but the lack of NFC is just plain stupid, I know a lot of people, me being one, use this one feature of their device, I use it almost daily, payments varia my smartphones have become the norm, even before the Pandemic, I feel that the Duo must be a US only device, I hope Microsoft fix this oversight for version 2.

Even the firm factor isn't new. ZTE made it 3 years ago. LG from 2 years ago. Sony from 10 years.

But all of them lacked support & ecosystem for multi-screen usage. At least MS build an Android skin with special features for multi tasking (see the videos of WC about it). Specs are nice and all but its the user experience that matters in the end. Its to soon to tell now.

It's not just a "newish form factor." It's legitimately new hardware. The second screen isn't cheap to add on, plus the hinge tech (look at the folding reliability on the first-gen Galaxy Fold). Look at how the use of a unique hinge design blasts the Surface Book into the stratosphere of the laptop market pricing. Screens are some of the most expensive parts to replace, if a smartphone fails. Plus, it's using something that supports a digital pen, like the Galaxy Note 10 that launched at $950 with ONE screen. I would like those additional wireless features as well, but their removal also isn't involving really expensive parts (you can buy NFC tags for a few bucks and Qi pads are cheap as well), so taking them out isn't going to move the needle much on product cost. I actually am OK with it costing a premium, but I also get that it's a real letdown to have some ubiquitous comfort features disappear on a premium device. It sucks and doesn't make a lot of sense, unless the chassis material is incompatible with the Qi and NFC options right now, but it seems like that's been solved by a lot of smartphone OEMs using metal chassis.

It won't cost a premium. It will be well under $1,000 and I would bet it is closer to $699 starting.

Bleached, the only problem with your $699 price is future expectations. If Gen 1 is $699, will buyers be willing to pay $899 for Gen 2? iPhone prices don't seem to have risen much in the last several years.

Next up, a Microsoft ChromeBook. Can MS Linux be very far behind?

Maybe not! And I say why? It may well make business sense for them.

*And I say why not?

You mean every Windows 10 S device?

What Windows 10 S devices? The 27 that are still in S mode?

The immediate aftermath of the Windows phone debacle left me wondering how, not if, Microsoft would get back to having a mobile computing story. Adopting Andorid, in hindsight, was inevitable though I must admit their approach of effectively doing that via a hostile takeover through applications and the launcher was a surprise. All of these initial moves have allowed me to disable or dump a significant number of Google applications on my Pixel phone with the Google Playstore and Maps the main exceptions. It isn't a pure Windows solution, but it is close enough for the foreseeable future. Now with the Surface Duo's release eminent and an apparent doubling down on their commitment to Android as their mobile platform leaves me intrigued by what comes next. Is the parasite about ready to explode out of the chest and run amok? My sense is this gambit is of strategic importance to Microsoft and not one they will abandon unless it becomes debacle 2.0, an outcome that is possible. Still, Microsoft being sidelined from one of the most significant computing events in the last 20 years, I am quite sure, is a problem that has consumed lots of time in their executive suites. Microsoft, at long last, seems to have a strategy and the tactical tools to make a return to the mobile computing universe viable. The timing of these current moves, when considered with the 5G rollout over the next five to ten years, looks willfully prescient. This is really fantastic news.

Beautifully said, Big Endian. 100% agree.

Very well put. The Duo could be an important part of what has been a winning strategy for Microsoft to put its software where its customers are, whether that is Windows or something else. This strategy has resulted in new financial heights and Windows 10 still hitting it goal of 1 billion users, just somewhat slower than had there still been a mobile version of the OS. The Duo will still need execution like the rest of the Surface products and I expect that V2 will be closer to the ideal than V1, but I will still purchase V1 because I like the concept of the dual screens in a pocketable device.

Microsoft using Android doesn't count as a return to the mobile universe. They will merely just be another OEM, no different than an LG or Samsung.

Why does it not count? All you have to do to be in the mobile space is release a phone, which the article claims they are about to do.

Well said, it will be interesting to see what will happen either way. For me ntrig support alone makes it worth it to keep an eye on.

Interesting reading about the nitty gritty business decisions like this. Of course they may tell us something about Duo, but they're also interesting in and of themselves. Or maybe I need a new hobby.

Yeah, I like that stuff too. Always interesting to hear.

This adds a little confidence that this isn't just an experiment by Microsoft. Hopefully, they'll be able to keep plugging away at this and build something unique.

They spent over $7 billion on Nokia. They didn't do jack to invest meaningfully into making their mobile platform work from there.

That was the old leadership. They hadn't realized that the platform could not be saved. New leadership fixed those issues.

I love it. Bleached - our resident MS defender! :)

Yes!
Because acquiring 33000 legend employees of Nokia Devices and Services and ditch them after one year wasn't enough to waste.

It seems convenient for you to push Steve Ballmer's on the plate of Sataya Nadella but you've left out the main course my friend. Most of Nadella's moves have been very tactful and strategic. Just look at MSFT's stock. When you look at the landscape of the world we live in today, and MSFT's commitment to applications like Teams for consumers and a more robust MSFT 365, the Duo would be for those who aren't dependent on NFC technology or wireless charging. These are services of convenience not requirements of productivity.

When it comes to consumer products Ballmer's MSFT and Nadella's MSFT are 90% the same venture, both drift all over the place while holding onto Windows and Office branding. No difference there what so ever. Nadella's success comes in cloud computing in enterprise market, everything behind the curtain pretty much. The guys is right, they had the most talented group of mobile devs, designers and engineers but some bean counter had come to conclusion they cost too much and some executive had green lit their layoff. Same is going to happen to these Romanian guys once Android project flops, you can place a bet on it. It's astonishing how many research centers MSFT has all over the world and yet they cannot produce their own mobile division. But that is not surprising considering that many projects in those research centers a redundant or simply throwaway projects.

"It's astonishing how many research centers MSFT has all over the world and yet they cannot produce their own mobile division." Well, to be fair, MS at one time DID have a mobile division. The only problem was that no one was interested. Its impossible to keep your mobile division going when it lost 10 billion dollars. At some point, you HAVE to close the doors and move on.

I'm getting a Windows Phone vibe all over again. Would love to love but feel te Microsoft love less in this project. Too many uncertainties, a product that does not have the same feeling as its courier root concept I come to appreciate. The product oozes business stalneness, invites me to look at it from a critical business, efficiency perspective. I don't see it. I could see it and have experienced it with Surface although early on I noticed its software shortcomings that could be addressed through software, but to this day still never really surfaced. I can already see duo is not much better in the software experience side of things. I think version 1 and look a lot like very very early alfa builds, but is far from where it should be. Microsoft did say in 2015 they were now going for the long game. The vision is at least another 10 years. Good prospects for work in the coming future, but lukewarm products at best in the near future.

Definitely going to trade my Note 10+ and Note 9 for the Surface Duo.

If nothing else, this gives me a little hope that we'll see a Duo 2, even if Duo 1 sells poorly due to its lack of features.

This looks like a flop in the making. And now there are no physical Microsoft stores. I think this will quietly get canned. Why even make this thing if they are a services company? Just make Office fantastic on Android and that's that. This seems like wasted resources and a vanity project for a very tiny number of users and it will be full of compromises as a G1 product - and a phone is a place where customers don't want compromises. Surface Neo actually had my interest. But now it is gone. I am waiting for the ARM Macbooks to see if I will be jumping ship from Windows. I STILL don't have the May update available on my SL3!!!!!!

Neither do I. Why do you even WANT the May update?

Many were saying that the Surface RT was a flop in the making and all it did was change the de facto standard for tablets (see iPad pro). I invested in Microsoft stock back in 2013 when it was $33 a share. Their stock is now worth just under $200 a share. Not sure how you can produce "flops" and still have your market share value rise?

Most people just need a slate phone, not foldies.

Most people just needed flip phones and look what happened when they saw an iPhone.

Foldies make sense since they could replace a tablet. A phone only partly can. Besides most people do not use a smartphone nowadays as a phone, they use it as a small pocket-able tablet with a messaging app.

I haven't been following the news about Microsoft too closely, but where does this leave Windows X (or whatever it's supposed to be called)? Also, I'm disappointed to hear that they're not de-Googling their copy/clone of Android. That would be a huge selling point for a lot of people. I predicted Microsoft would release an Android phone before they announced it, and back then it was something I could get behind. I've been using their launcher on my tablet and phone for a while. But I'm not sure I'm bothered about the whole MS + Android anymore. I tried using Outlook but it took them a long time to handle notifications properly and they also started putting ads into their apps. Having said all that, I hope it does work out to provide more competition in the marketplace. We need something to compete against Google and Apple, even if it's only Google's Android + Microsoft hardware.

That would be a selling point for very few people and removing Google from the phone would destroy the experience as apps would be nonexistent. This makes no sense.

I think this is positive news and at least there will probably be a gen2 than or such.
I now this is really niche but the ntrig support (in conjunction with 2 4:3 screens) on this device kind of intrigues me. While a pen dock like the Note has would be even better, but this would still be handy for note taking for people that own a surface or convertible device with a pen.

So sorry for them. in 18 months or so Microsoft will lose interest and it will all fall apart.

The usefulness of Windows 10, Office subscriptions, the Android apps when paired to OneDrive and the ever improving Your Phone is excellent. Add in something like a Surface Pro X or Surface Neo and a Surface Duo paired to a 5G network and it is easy to end up confused, thinking somebody at Microsoft has been executing on a specific plan for the last half decade. Mr. Balmer would have been a great 1990s Microsoft CEO. Unfortunately, he was the CEO in the 2000s and missed the importance of search and mobile computing. Being most polite, the legacy he left is complicated. Mr. Nadella, is proving to be a brilliant leader and will be regarded as one of the most important people of this era, possibly ever, when the history of computing is written. The relevant point, as it relates to the Android development, is he had a significant challenge of not only resetting Microsoft's culture and future but untangling the company from Mr. Ballmer’s mobile computing disaster. That disaster was so significant that I remember thinking that Napoleon, if he could, would have pointed at that mess and said “Waterloo wasn’t so bad”. That Microsoft is going to have a dedicated Android team can be thought of as the last bit of sweeping up the wreckage and saying to my fictional Napoleon, “Nope, Waterloo was that bad and unlike you we are going to recover from this mess” So at last in the middle of 2020, Microsoft finally has something that resembles a coherent structure that addresses the 5G future, a significant hardware culture that is world class, a rather seamless software stack (there are still challenges here that are works in progress), a world class cloud environment, a bright future in AI, huge bets on quantum computing and most stunningly has accepted Windows is never going to be on a modern phone. Pride can ruin your day at times. Microsoft drives me insane at times with their update chaos and then shutting down their stores being the most recent frowny face moments. Overall what has happened over the last number of years is remarkable, not perfect, but still remarkable. Taking a step back and comparing Microsoft to its greatest wholistic competitors, Apple and Google, they don’t look so flawed all of the sudden. Apple is a great company and has an excellent consumer stack that rivals and may be better than Microsoft's offerings at this time. However, you pay a price for that; good luck when you go shopping for a Dell XPS 17 that runs MacOs. Google does have Android, but it also has the Chrome OS; so they got 50% of it right. Then there is the phone chaos. How is it that Google who owns Android has not been able to figure out how to roll out updates to all devices within a few weeks. Waiting months is flat out absurd. That Microsoft now has an Android team – that is a hugely positive story for the long haul. No, Microsoft is not going to lose interest in 18 months. I posit strongly that Microsoft hiring a dedicated Android team is one of the most significant developments to happen in 2020. Mr. Nadella just pushed a huge stack of chips in. This bet is big. Disclaimer – I am writing this in a pub somewhere in America on a Surface Pro device while connected to my Android phone and texting with friends and family via Your Phone, satisfied knowing that all my data is up to date on all my device because of OneDrive. That is pretty fantastic.