Verizon retains top dog title in US; Windows Phone climbing steadily according to new market data from Kantar

Inteller, are you a dick on every post?

We need some pessimism to offset the fanboy like atmosphere here.

+1
The market share shrinking in US, Germany, Australia and Spain is indeed worrisome.  You have to be concerned about some of the things Nokia and MS are doing just don't help the WP phone sales.
1.  MS's delayed release of upgrades.  GDR2. GDR3 and WP8.1 are all one year late coming.  WP phones are perceived by the public as the old specs phones.  Even we all know L9xx specs are more than adequate, it is not good enough for most consumers who are the trend and specs followers.  Hopefully, Nokia's 2014 offerings will catchup and exceed the competitors.  Camera tech alone is not enough.
2.  Nokia phone configurations are questionalble.  L925 with 16GB and without microSD, L9xx and L1020 without microSD, L520 without front camera, too many 512MB phones are all self-imposed limitations.  I don't know what their Product Managers are thinking.  Have they done any surveys among the potential buyers at all?  The reason they don't add a mcroSD in is because people don't want it? 
3.  Apps gap with IOS and Android is not improving.  Even I don't feel the app inadequacy myself, but the public perception is strong and real.  There is no short term solution either.  I wonder if Nokia would look into the feasibility of building a version of dual-boot L1020 and see how market react.  It could be hotter than S4.  Also the MS Office Touch, supposedly out in 2014, could be a big draw for WP phones and tablets.
4.  The carrier exclusivity deals are in fact the biggest Nokia self-imposed limition for sales growth in US.  The AT&T deal is obviously failing.  The L920 sales keeps going down in the last few quarters is the proof of that.  Don't you agree that offering L1020 on all carriers at once is a far better strategy than the AT&T exclusive deal?  So any one who wants one can get one on their favorite carrier.  Is anything wrong with that?  But the Nokia management think the otherwise.  They want to make sure the other carrier customers CAN'T get one even they anxiously wants one. 
There you go.
 

You just resume everything that its going on with WP8 in this comment..... Kudos to you!

So true. Microsoft should read what yangstax wrote

Yeah, lack of microSD for a phone that touts its Camera is a self imposed limitation. 
Buyer looking at 920 or 1020:
"This camera is great, so I will take a ton of pictures!"
Later on...
"I got no more space to take anymore."
WP8 OS uses a chunk of space for itself. The Other storage problem is still present. I was surprised that the 1020 still didn't come with microSD support. MSFT and Nokia are either ignoring all of these posts on the WP user forums, or they see it and say "Meh. These users know nothing". Well, so far that strategy hasn't worked out too well sales-wise. 

I'm still waiting for my L1020.  That's my big concern for the picture or video storage.  You can't rely on the cloud storage when you are out in the woods or traveling abroad.  MicroSD is your important storage choice.  You would think that their Product Managers have thought about this, but they don't care.  
 
The vendors with dominant position tend to be arrogant.  They make a product with features that they think you need or don't need.  Then their customers are left with the only choice to take it or leave it.  But now Nokia is no longer the dominant player but they still carries the mindset of the past.  MS was arrogant when they built the first version of W8 and then fumbled.  Now they have come down to earth to re-build the W8.1.  I hope Nokia will the do the same to listen more to users' needs.

I don't think you understand what delay means.

Definitely

Fear not, by 2030, maybe WP will be up with the big boys? ;)

4% 3 years later. Wow. Well slow updates aren't helping any. Seriously silence from Joe Belfiore and team is now doing more harm than good. "shut up and ship" is sinking the enthusiasm for the platform.

he isn't even shutting up anymore.  he's been tweeting about GDR2 "ramping up"...?!  that must be a long fucking ramp lol

Belfiore is Microsoft's mommy-in-chief, constantly comforting the baby WP community. Basically, Microsoft is providing us with almost zero information and then making Belfiore pretend to fill in the gaps with a few low information tweets. This is unprofessional and a ridiculous policy. We have nothing but speculation in regard to catch-up features many expect MS to deliver. We have no real information on WP's update procedure and policies. We have no roadmap. MS appears to have no vision of where WP is headed and isn't defining WP at all (Android=geeky, configurable, cheap / iOS=high-end, reliable, simple / WP=?). It's one huge communications catastrophy.

Nevermind, turns out the answer was "yes"

Agreed. "Shut up and ship" MUST go. How can they not see that shutting off all communication is making the entire community dissatisfied? People want to know what's coming, and they want some reassurance that their issues, complaints, and requests are being listened to and acted upon.
Unfortunately, the "acted upon" part also needs vast improvement. Three years and still no orientation lock? No way to transfer saved games? No notification center? Please MS, we want to use your os and promote it to others... but you are making it very hard to do so honestly.

Not being picky but October will be 3 years. I thought 10% was realistic after 3 years but we are nowhere near that..

It's rediculous that the 3rd largest tech company (formorly first) can't release some decent updates. But all that said Ithink Windows Phone has as many useful features as Android and runs as smooth as iOS. They just need to give faster updates. Where's my left screen yet?!

MS is larger than Google I believe. Unless there's another tech company I missed? (I wouldn't include Samsung)

How do you figure 3 years? My calculations are 8 months since the October release. Windows phone 7 aren't included in these totals only 8.

"It's a marathon, not a sprint"....
Even during a marathon the runners will pick up the pace at key moments.

I was thinking the same thing. While Windows Phone seems to be making steady gains internationally (though still rather slowly), in the US... it's barely moving... or moving backwards.  I think the problem is two fold: (1) exclussivity deals with the carriers, and (2) shortages and/or wait times for devices. If someone is ready to buy a new phone, they don't want to wait two weeks to get it.  If the choice is between waiting two weeks to get a Windows Phone or getting this Android phone that is available now, most people are choosing the Android.  Who can blame them. Both, Nokia and Microsoft have dropped the ball.  Microsoft's software updates are coming too slowly, and Nokia's shortages are epidemic.  It's killing the platform just when the consumers are finally showing some interest.

The Nokia exclusives in the US need to end.  At least shorten the window....  Verizon needs to have a variant of the 1020 by October.

they will, and it will probably be 1080P.  Verizon would rather have a refined variant than the first pass.   I wish ATT cared more about quality than being first.

I know they will get the "1028" or whatever the number will be, but I am not confident it will be available before the end of 2013.  Let's hope.

I think there's a reason why att is selling the 1020 for $299. I think Nokia is realizing that Verizon is selling more and more windows phones than att and they decided to make a 1020 for Verizon as well. I bet Verizon will get 1020 variant sooner than they got the 920 variant. Att didn't like that so they decided not to subsidize the 1020 as much as they did the 900/920.

Sounds plausible...  although, the off contract price of the 1020 is higher than the 920 was, so AT&T is probably sudsidizing the same $ amount as it did for the 920 (around $400).

Probably true, but at that price, I'm pretty sure Verizon can also offer the 1020 for $299. I'm sure they'll get it sooner than we think.

I feel as though for that high price the 1020 should have just been given to Verizon and at&t if At&t is going to be all pissy about not having the 1020 for 6 months.

No, *variants* need to stop in the U.S. It's more expensive for the OEMs, and by extension more expensive for consumers. Any given model (e.g. L1020) should have the proper multi-band radios to work on all carriers. Exclusives are a crutch for not being able to compete on price/coverage/features. It would also be great if MOs would have pulled their ego-inflated heads out of their butts a decade ago and started adopting a single wireless standard instead of carving up limited spectrum into inefficiently utilized bands for their one-off crap, but that's a rant for another day.

The multband thing would be nice, but, it makes more sense for Nokia to go after the GSM carriers first as most of the world is GSM so there's less effort in getting handsets out to as many carriers as possible internationally. Verizon and Sprint being CDMA don't help the cause with OEMs that need to built hardware to attract crowds worldwide. If Nokia had a US exclusive arm then it would be better for them (and maybe us) to go for the larger crowd in the CDMA band but it's a waste of time, effort, and money to slap it in every device so they have to make business decisions.
 

So basically those of us with Carriers that adhere to eht Worldwide defacto GSM Standard should subsidize Verison's Luddite system?  No thanks. I don't want to pay for a radio capability that I can't use just to enhance Version's profits.

You already are. I think people interpreted my "should" wrong. Go to Nokia's website and look at the specs for all of their phones. They all support the same broad range of both GSM and WCDMA bands. Software differences are the only thing keeping you from using any phone on any network. Eventually carriers will settle on a standard, and this will go away. But it's orthogonal to the topic of carrier exclusives.

The exclusives are there for promotional dollars and store visibility. I'm sure Nokia is aware that you don't like it, but they have neither the clout nor the cash to push these phones alone. The carriers might not even shelve these devices were it not for the bragging rights about "exclusive". Windows Phone ain't there yet. Remember when iPhone was "exclusive" to AT&T and the Motorola's Droid was exclusive to Verizon to launch Android? Those both ended up working out. Samsung was different. They had LOADS of cash with a familiar brand. Oh, and why not jump carriers of the one you have is lacking? All this "coverage" talk has rarely translated into real-world differentiation, at least here in Los Angeles. People just cling to marketing boasts of whichever carrier they're on.

It has nothing to do with feeling left out of a product launch. I could make the same argument about the 928 or any other variant. It spreads Nokia thin, and opens the door for bugs/quirks to pop up across more devices instead of focusing everything on making a single version of that device the best it can be. The fact that some consumers get left out is a secondary issue, although one that has a non-zero impact on Nokia as well. And the main reason people in the U.S. don't just switch carriers is because nearly all of them are on contract, to get subsidized phone pricing. You pay exactly the same every month for service if you bring your own device, so it's pretty dumb not to take advantage of the subsidies. Carrier exclusives exist solely so MOs can attract customers and lock them in for two years, so of course the MOs "incentivize" the OEMs to support this. But that doesn't change my argument that the consumer is the one who loses here.

Dalydose speaks the truth.

Why does everyone think the 1020 is the be all must have device? The only feature it has that the 920 doesn't is the camera. While I do take some pictures, my 920 does just fine. It has built in wireless charging, and fits perfectly in my pocket. The 1020 is 200$ more, wireless charging is an expensive and bulky add on, that would not fit comfortably in my pocket. The 1020 is a niche phone. Nokia even says as much. It set a bar and draws attention to the company, the line, and the platform. I see the same thing with NVIDIA cards. They produce a high end expensive card for bragging rights, but then make the money on the lower end of the line. I'm not saying that the 1020 is a bad phone. It's a great phone. But it's only selling point will appeal to a small group. I haven't even seen a commercial for it yet.

Knowing how customers are, it makes sense to me exactly why its growth is still so slow. And the majority of it is NOT on Microsoft ...

MS take a large share of the blame...the OS is missing features that bring it inline with its competitors - features that customers compare, even if they're comparing apples to oranges....and until MS gets their shit together and gives a damn about the OS it will always be a very distant 3rd place.

Anyone remember Ballmer saying they wanted to sell between 20-30 million devices in the first year? They probably haven't even sold that many to date.

They are currently selling about 40 million a year.

BOOM!

Balmer is what's holding the company back...too bad it won't happen, but he needs to go. Microsoft needs some fresh blood in there, Balmer represents the "old guard" and until he's gone ms will always have a perception issue

I've seen alot of people where I'm at with the Lumia 928 for Verizon!

I helped convince a co-worker to get the 928, even got his teenage son one. He loves it so far. He had a 3 year old Android phone with a sub 4" screen, it was pretty bad.

errr, nothing to see here, move along

GDR2 should have been shipped over 2 months ago and GDR3 should be coming in october. they way ms is moving in the phone area is not good.
 

And 8.1 should have came out in 2008.

When are people going to get sick of their Android phones and consider switching to Windows phone?...After 2 previous Android phones I couldn't take the random problems anymore and made the switch to WP8...Microsoft needs to attack Android and iPhone rather than just showing people using Windows phones in their commercials....Samsung is great at jabbing Apple where it hurts abd Microsoft should try similar tactics....Google and Apple won't bother to respond because of our small market share so why not go on the offensive a bit?

Because ms has the worst marketing team in the business?

You must not been keeping up with MS commercial.

Attack them with what, the lack of proper playlist management, inability to edit forwarded emails, inconsistent notifications, inability to sync xbox video content? Microsoft cant attack anyone because when you look beneath the surface WP lacks a lot of basic features and isnt really as competitive as they would like you to believe.

I agree with all of your comments. Inability to edit playlists or even to drag to fast forward a song, as well as editing forwarded mails or messages are BASIC functionality features available on phones more than 4 years old still running Symbian.

Why is everyone so negative? It's the US market, I was expecting decline instead growth. In other parts of the world Windows Phone adoption is going great. It seems to be near 10% in most EU countries, some even above. It won't be long before everyone knows someone with a Windows Phone. That's critical mass and then consumers will know WP actually exists.

It's still a minor cause for concern.

Ya, I agree. The US market will be a tough one to crack. I mean I think 3 years ago Blackberry was the top smartphone maker in the US (Not sure about that, but I remember most of my friends and I had Blackberry). iPhone didn't really pick up until after the 4 was released. Nokia also doesn't really have the brand recognition here. That said, ever since I got a Lumia 920 so many people have  asked me about it. I think Microsoft has people curious.
They should focus on European and developing markets because that seems where they are finding success. And also focus on the US prepaid market, since they have much less competition there.

^this
 

Forget switching carriers; at this rate I may need to switch countries.

^this! I feel like so many people in the US are just... Sleep.

Microsoft needs to be more aggressive. I was hoping for 10% market share in US,by the end of,the year. Its still very possible with new phones coming out later this year. Also sprint and Tmobile finally selling high end WP's. The 520 on ATT should help. But they have to bring the 520 to Verizon. Asap!! The cheap Iphone can really damage WP in Europe and Asia. Microsoft and Nokia need to push Now!!

As a seller of wireless phones for att (and an avid windows phone supporter/user) I can tell you it is not the operating system holding customers back. It is the lack of apps. People love the operating system but you aren't going to convert teens and up until you have instagram, snapchat etc... By the way I still love windows phone and showcase it whenever I can.

+100,000 (more apps!)

Yes, but not just more apps, but OFFICIAL apps.
Get fully-baked official apps.  You can third-party it all day long but in the end critics of the OS complain about Fully functioning OFFICIAL apps.
Then we can see the natural decay (thankfully) of varients that lack full access to API's, which leads to complaints about the apps, which leads to complaints about WP.
 

I agree 100%. Fully functional official apps (with timely release dates) would make the OS a lot more appealing to consumers.

Bingo.

Yeap,my best friends son is sixteen,and took he's back after a few days because of no instagram,SnapChat,YouTube,Vine.The app gap is still a big problem for WP8,and alot of the apps we do have get very little support.

How do they respond when you tell them that there are excellent 3rd party instagram and snapchat clients available?

The third party apps are far from excellent,and he did try them after I suggested it, and he didn't care for them at all they were lacking when compared to he's old Android phone.So guess what he did when he went back to the T Mobile store? He picked up a brand new Nexus 4.Im guessing this happens alot and Microsoft needs to put the pedal to the medal if they want to stay in the smart phone game.

Agreed, case and point Instance. Used to be good, but everyday it's becoming less and less reliable.

I uninstalled instance,that's the last time I will ever pay for a third party app.My Facebook account was shut down because of it, had to go thru and put all my passwords back in.Baked in version,Facebook app and my Microsoft account.The last straw was a few nights ago when it kept telling me to log back in everytime I opened the app.Note to Gary the developer.WPCentral did you a solid helping push your app.The least you can do is give US timely updates.

Well, this should embarrassing to AT&T.

Lol ⤴

The W1, 8S and Lumia 52x needs to be on ever single small prepaid carrier

Agreed

There are multiple issues holding WP back. Some are because of Microsoft, some are from the OEM's, Some is related to customers not willing to give Microsoft the chance. However, there are 2 major issues. 1 is the press. The press does everything possible to twist things and make it look like WP is lacking. They complain about no 1080p screens and yet praise the iphone retina display which is lower res than top of the line WP's. They still say you can'y use instagram and youtube at all while failing to mention there are pretty good 3rd party apps. The list goes on and on with the press and that won't change until WP becomes "cool' and gains real marketshare.
 
Problem 2 is the fact that when you go into a store and see 2 WP's and 40 Android phones the 1st inpression the general comsumer has is that WP must not be very good. Then you talk to a rep and they confirm your 1st impression. There has got to be more WP's on display for people to look at, touch and mess around wth the OS a bit. It doesn't help when the stores won't even put the phones out. I can tell you the Best Buy's in my area only display 1 Wp, usually the 822 on Verizon. that's it. They wont even put the flagships out for people to see. For perception reasons alone, they need more WP's sitting in stores for people to see. It all comes down to image and the general public's perception and right now, these 2 things are really hurting WP.

^THIS

"... its a marathon, not a sprint." Similar words were used by HP before they pulled the plug on WebOS. You have to run harder than everyone else when you're trying to catch up.

A friend of mind got the 928. Score. Another is getting the 1020. Score. An elderly lady who was interested in my 920 wound up getting the Galaxy S4. Why? It's a no brainer: when she walked in to the store, the sales rep did what sales reps do - sell Samsungs. When the lady told me she got a smart phone, the first thing I said to her was, "You get a Samsung?" I must be clairvoyant.
How quickly the platform updates is only a frustration to us - us meaning people who even care what's going on. Now carrier support is awful as well, but a real major problem, a side effect of that, is sales reps know nothing about WIndows Phone and are often not supportive of it. My two friends knew what they want. Many people do not.
I think many many people would really dig WP.  It is harsh to minimize the slow growth with too much sarcasm - that growth is happening at all shows word is getting around. Nokia and Windows Phone are a quality product - quirky and in need of refinement, sure, but again, the real problem is all those smart phone newbies and seniors who should be walking out of the phone store poking at the big square tiles on their new phone.

Gartner Group numbers are more accurate since they count every carrier in the  US, compared to the Kantar stats which only focus on the four major carriers.

The path to WP glory is through South America, Asia and Africa.

I definitely agree. But the US has tons of potential yet, even if slowly over time. Nokia is doing all they can. Microsoft has to start making smart choices. If they cannot sell Nokia's hardware here, they are at fault. And a Surface Phone is not the answer - especially not now. Microsoft has to tweak the OS itself and stop putting out moronic commercials that have no connection to the lives of real people.

imagine if Nokia released the 920, 1020 on all 4 carriers.

Its a Sprint for Samsung and Apple and google, but for MS, its a marathon, Nokia is trying to sprint, but MS is holding them back, if it were not for Nokia, MS would still be at the starting point when Samsung Apple and Google reaches the finish line!