Will Microsoft deliver a Windows Phone 8 update or won't they?

Yesterday was quite the rollercoaster ride in the bubble word of tech-media. First there was a Microsoft employee stating on camera that yes, all Windows Phones will get the an update to Windows Phone 8 aka "Apollo" which is expected to drop on the fall. Then came a story on the Verge from our old boss and friend Dieter citing a trusted (but unnamed source) that no phones will be getting the update.

Well, that's certainly a 180 on the issue.

And what does Microsoft have to say? Well, not much of course. From a Microsoft spokesperson we were told the same thing as every other site:

“We have stated publicly that all apps in our Marketplace today will run on the next version of Windows Phone. Beyond that, we have nothing to share about future releases.”

Their contention is that Silva, the Microsoft Evangelist on video claiming all phones will get the update, was possibly mistaken or confused when talking about updates versus app compatibility. (Microsoft recently confirmed app compatibility with Windows Phone 8).

As our own Rafael Rivera said on Twitter: "Come on, we seriously believed a developer evangelist from Portugal had close guarded core information on Windows Phone? ". Indeed.

A few months ago we personally heard from someone with direct contact at Microsoft that jives with what the Verge claimed: no phones will get the update. ZDNet's Mary Jo Foley has also heard the same thing lending more credence to the claim. However, since none of us share our sources for all we know we're all citing the same person, which doesn't really confirm anything so long as they want to remain anonymous.

So why is there such a discrepancy in these stories?



Possible explanations

For one, there are a lot of complications involved including whether or not carriers will support such an update (if it were possible). Because of that Microsoft may not want to publicly commit to stating all phones will get the update as that could tick off carriers who don't want such public pressure. See AT&T as an example.

Second, we've heard from a Microsoft employee (but not confirmed) that Microsoft only started internally testing Windows Phone 8 on March 30th. In industry jargon this is called "dogfooding". If that's the case then hardware testing on various devices has just begun leaving Microsoft in a position of wanting to update all phones but not being able to yet guarantee compatibility.

In fact, a build of Windows Phone 8 (8.0.9662.0) showed up in the app "I'm a WP7!" but alas, it was only on an emulator not actual phone hardware yet.

A third more grandiose explanation goes like this: Current Windows Phones will get an Apollo-like update while new Windows Phone 8 devices will be running something different, a truly new OS (at the kernel-level) that requires new hardware e.g. higher resolution screens, dual-core CPUs, etc.. This seemingly could explain why folks like MS_Nerd and Microsoft Evangelist Nuno Silva state that all phones can get the update while other sources say otherwise.

Problem with this explanation is there is no hard evidence that this two-pronged route for the future of the OS is true. It just sounds plausible (and perhaps hopeful on our part). Of course with Microsoft not saying much on the topic and very few details on what Windows Phone 8 is like or based on, we're left to just speculation and hand-wringing.

And that's the problem.


Why so quiet, Microsoft?

Normally, not announcing features or upgrade paths for a major OS overhaul is not that big of a deal, heck Apple does this all the time. But with devices like the high-profile Nokia Lumia 900 just being released (and going international soon) it certainly puts a lot of pressure on all the parties involved. In fact it would be very hard for any of us to have to defend such a prominent device if it were not getting the update (and frankly, we don't want to have to face the customer blow back from such a decision).

Microsoft, to their credit, is keeping Windows Phone 8 under wraps quite effectively. With Mango being announced and demonstrated so early before its release, Microsoft may have revealed their cards too early allowing their competition to mimic some functionality. By keeping WP8 close to their vest, they can hopefully ensure a surprise reaction from Google and Apple.

Even when we spoke with AT&T recently, they had no idea what Microsoft's plans were for Apollo and were waiting on Redmond for an answer.

Our official opinion on the matter is we'll wait till Microsoft commits publicly to the future of Windows Phone 8. But knowing the pressures of the Lumia 900 and the nature of modern day tech-journalism, we bet we'll be getting a lot more back and forth over the next few weeks.

Buckle up, kids.

Daniel Rubino

Daniel Rubino is the Editor-in-chief of Windows Central, head reviewer, podcast co-host, and analyst. He has been covering Microsoft since 2007 when this site was called WMExperts (and later Windows Phone Central). His interests include Windows, laptops, next-gen computing, and for some reason, watches. Before all this tech stuff, he worked on a Ph.D. in linguistics, watched people sleep (for medical purposes!), and ran the projectors at movie theaters because it was fun.

  • Personally, I think it would spit in the faces of the early supporters to deny them access to WP8. And what about people currently being sold the Lumia dream? They won't be ready for a new phone til mid 2014.
  • Exactly. Even Apple supported the iPhone 3GS with iOS 5.
  • If by 'supported' you mean 'ruined by making incredibly slow'
  • To me, MS's and Nokia's evasive answers leave no room for speculation: there will be no WP8 update for current devices.
  • That's the fear, isn't it? If they burn the folks buying today, I don't see how Microsoft recovers. I think that would kill them in the mobile space. They'd certainly lose me as a customer.
  • Me too...
    Cause when no one was buying Windows Phone, even before Mango, I was one of the many supporters who experimented how the new 'Windows Phone' concept will turn out after discontinuing the Windows Mobile.
    I purchased Windows Phone just to continue being a Windows Mobile (Phone) user even after I knew that the 'Phone' is not even half as good as the 'Mobile.
  • What?  Why is it that people flip out about stuff like this?
    Microsoft's refusal to provide any further comment isn't an indictment on them.  They never comment on rumors.  Nokia has nothing to do with the conversation.
    Looking at this from a practical lens:
    First gen users
    if you were early adapters (in the US), your upgrade will hit by the time WP8 comes out anyway.  Most carriers allow the upgrade at 22 months so the people who bought their phones from launch day up until the end of January should be good if Apollo comes out in October.  Second gen users
    I personally believe that you guys will get the update but it will be nerfed like Mango was for us first gen folk. 
    The fact of the matter is that Apollo is still a good half a year out...last year around  people were livid about no do not getting here on time and that it would take a year to get mango.  Just relax and let MS do their thing without contributing to the FUD.
  • Couldn't agree more!  People really need to relax.  I do believe that MS has learned some of their mistakes they made in Windows Mobile.  But, they still allow Carriers to dictate software updates. I do believe MS has a plan to address 2nd Gen devices, especially with the Lumia 800/900 being the best selling Windows Phone device they have.
  • Sad to say, carriers need to control updates due to network firmwares, etc..
  • horse manure.  Plenty of foreign unlocked devices work just fine on ATT...in fact that's the way it works in Europe most of the time.
    I don't play the sucker's game known as contract subsidies.  I buy my phones outright and I expect support for that phone at least during its warranty period but implicitly as long as the compeition (Apple).  I buy a device and you orphan me less than a year later and I'm done with you.
  • If you mean the 3G and not the 3GS, possibly.
  • I too am jumping on this bandwagon, I was interested in this phone, and Windows 8, hence the purchase. I'm going for a different OS, as I'm not buying a Windows 8 phone just for the OS. As everyone, I haves paid for a phone that is supposed to be future-proof.
  • What? Lol they never said your phone would be future proof. tech changes guy
  • What an annoying answer...
  • by annoying you mean truthful and based in reality?
    It sucks but he is right. Tech does move forward and sometimes someone has to be left behind.
    Even if for some crazy reason current phones didn't get updated they would still be supported for years, get updates and new features. You would hardly be abandoned.
  • Why can't we pay for OS upgrades like we do in the PC. It might bring back a bit of consumer power. Look what we already know about Windows 8 as opposed to Apollo. Phone software is so damn cheap so why not give us consumer choice on upgrades?
  • When windows XP came out, it ran on machines with as little as 128 Megs of RAM. That machine would not run Vista or 7, even if you bought the upgrade. So, by keeping the phone upgrade path more tightly regulated, MS ensures that only phones that will run the new OS well can upgrade. For the rest, there's always XDA.
  • and Microsoft wants to control the experiance. They will not sell it or release it if one of the devices would perform poorly. I'd put money down that they would not release it if 1 first gen device would not run it well, no 1st gen devices would get it.
    All that needs is to get into the press that MS supported a release that made WP7/8 perform poorly and that is HUGE bad press.
  • If I don't get Apollo in my Lumia 900, I'm switching to an iPhone. I love Windows Phone, and I love Metro with a passion. But if Microsoft does this, they will doom the platform.
  • Me too. If my Nokia Lumia 800 doesn't get a major update, that includes (native?) WP8 apps, I will get an iPhone and a Mac next.
  • Yeah and if you guys get an iPhone, it will freeze, have battery issues, disappearing apps, and have to reset it on a routine basis. I have 2 iPhones, the 3Gs and 4S....had theses issues with both. Had to hard reset the 4s at least twice already.
  • Oh shut up.
  • Completely uncalled for response.
  • Enjoy your iPhone!
  • Agree. I love my Lumia 800 and I promote Windows Phone whenever I can, but if they mess this up and don't offer an update - does not have to be free, I'm even willing to pay a few bucks - I will throw the phone out of the window and switch to Apples iPhone. 
    Microsoft & Nokia: You have a once in a lifetime chance to get back into the mobile market. Don't hassle your early and best supporters!
  • Hear hear! It would be a death knell for Windows Phone. I love the platform and am looking to switch onto a Lumia 900 as soon as it's available in the UK from my mk1 device. But forcing me to update again to get v8 would really make me think twice.
    I had this after buying a HD2 and facing the prospect of over a year of the contract being stuck on an old WinMo 6 OS. I looked around at all platforms last time, luckily some devs over at xda developers saved me from going iOS or Android with their WP7 roms. This time though I'm already one foot in the iOS camp with an iPad, this may make me go the whole hog.
  • I totally agree.
    Like you I had a HD2, now a HD7, now hoping to upgrade to the Lumia 900. If MS don't have an upgrade option for the newer legacy phones then it would kill any goodwill that WP7 (and Nokia) has built-up over the last two years.
    To be honest I can't see MS leaving WP7 owners in the lurch; that would be worst than Apple.
    If they did I would definitly think twice about buying any new WP7.5/8 hardware and I've been a metro fan from the beginning. Though I wouldn't know who to go to, I don't particularly like the two alternatives.
    Also the press don't like MS much already and this would be a marketing nightmare.
    MS give some clarification quick!
  • I just bought a Lumia 900 on a 3 year contract.   Thx Canada.
    If Microsoft does obselete all WP 7.5 handsets, it will prove that they've learned nothing from Windows Mobile.  It will also most likely break Nokia's back completely.  
    I for one will stop supporting  their mobile efforts altogether with my support and recommendations too.
  • Same here. In fact, I am likely done with MSFT altogether.
  • I agree, though I'd probably not switch back to iPhone.  I'd probably go with an HTC One X (even though I'm not crazy about Android, but once you have live objects on  your phone's home screen, you can go back to the static field on icons that is iOS).
  • When WP8 comes out....
    ....Will your WP7 device quit working?!
    I can't afford a new car every year....so if Chevy comes out with a new model.....well....damn them anywho!!
  • that is an incorrect analogy.
  • I hate to agree, but I do.  As much as I love the WP7 platform, I expect the WP8 update on my Lumia 900.  Actually, I expect it on my Samsung Focus.  It hasn't been long enough yet that even the original Gen 1 devices shouldn't get it.
    Microsoft gets screwed by their policies, not by their technology.  If they ditch the 1st round of devices, I don't see why anyone would have enough confidence in them to stick around to even try WP8.  And you can toss me into that group.
  • Well, I hope they will release an update. As they put it. An "Apollo like" update. It will not be near the capabilities of the new devices though. Going from CE to NT is a huge step. Just hang in there and lets see what they give us. Me personally, I can survive with WP7 until my upgrade in May 2013. If they give us something, I would be content with some of the features that WP7 is still missing. But I figure by May, that will give time for some decent WP8 phones to come out and maybe even an update or 2 to take care of early bugs. Not in a hurry. In the meantime, might pick up a lumia 900 or titan II out of contract if it goes down enough in the next 6 months or so. Patience is a virtue.
  • People are getting too upset over rumors. Besides, when you buy a phone you shouldn't buy it because a future update might get features x, y, and z.. Mango is great and we don't even know very much about Apollo. I'm betting MS will throw lots of new features our way but some new ones will inevitably require the better hardware.
  • Of course I do. I want a platform that keeps my platform up to date for at least 2 years.
  • I think they'll keep it up to date pretty well but we shouldn't expect all the new features included in Apollo to come to first gen handsets. I just think people shouldn't buy phones on strange rumors and speculation
  • Well, of course the older phones won't get the full update due to hardware limitations, but if there is software improvement on UI and features that aren't resource hungry I'm sure they have to make it available to their userbase. Otherwise I'll feel cheated and will just go back to Apple.
    Also, I'm praising this OS and convincing many friends to come on board, so I'd have a lot of angry friends (not birds) to deal with if they don't get the next major OS on their shining new phone.
  • Sadly people do buy gadgets on rumour and speculation. The press would have a field day.
    This will put people off buying the new WP7 phones like the Lumia. I wouldn't buy the Lumia 900 if it wasn't going to get an upgrade. Which I was planning to do - emphasis on the was.
  • Well, To be honest, it isn't so much about getting an update but about "Is my device future safe?". For example, back when WM6.5 came out, I got me an unlocked HD2 and, despite the fact that I had to pay a lot of money for that off-contract phone, I was happy with it until a year later: support for the phone / platform vanished entirely. I don't get updates on my navigation software anymore, the web browsers in the phone are more or less useless (IE and Opera) and, even though it is a beautifully crafted handset, you can consider it a trash phone today (at least so long as you don't hack it and put WP7 or Android on there). If I get me a phone, it becomes my personal tool and I want to be able to use it as long as I please. Sure, I am aware of the fact that hardware and software technologies change over time, however, that shouldn't mean that my phone will no longer work properly or with only limitted functionality. Take Windows XP for example: You still can do pretty much anything you do under Windows 7. From a consumer's perspective, MS being quiet about this issue is signaling that there won't be any Apollo updates for existing WP7 devices. Why else would MS be quiet about it? They want to sell as much WP7 as possible and if they would let the consumers know that existing phones would be excluded, nobody would want to buy one because their platform would be dead at the end of the year. From a developer's perspective: Why would I want to invest my time in developing for WP7 if WP8 is around the corner? Sure, my WP7 app may be compatible with WP8, however, I would prefer to wait until the end of the year and write for the new and improved Apollo rather than having to rewrite my app to include features not known to humanity yet since we don't know what changes will come with Apollo. If MS would announce today that all existing phones would get the Apollo update, there would be an explosion in sales of WP7 devices since customers would be confident that they won't have an outdated device very soon. Microsoft's silence is killing potential sales! Besides the above, if anyone can pull this off to update all existing first and second generation devices to WP8, it is Microsoft. After all, they have a long history of supporting countless computer configurations and different chipsets with their desktop OS.
  • I do not agree on this one. This was right for so many years, but not any more with smartphones on the market. You pay a lot of money for a small piece of tech and you do not only pay for what you get now, you also invest in a plattform and in plattform support. 
  • I hate the US carriers for blocking or slowing potential updates, but I'd hate Microsoft even more if this would effect my open Lumia 800...
  • I think that in the end all second gen devices and possibly first gen devices will get the update; however, based on what I've seen across the blogosphere, it will require you to flash your device and not be able to upgrade it from Mango as we have done in the past. If WP8 is going to use the MinWin architecture, this would make sense considering that all of the OS Managed Code bits would have to be replaced and settings would not necessarily work the same way for the apps installed or have features that would require a piece of middleware to interpret the api calls.
    Secondly, Microsoft, Nokia, Samsung, and HTC would ruin their customer base and reputation for WP if they bought second gen devices to only miss out on the next update that comes out 6 - 7 months after purchase. Noone would trust them and it would be the Death of Nokia who went far out on a limb to be exclusive to Windows Phone.
    Either way, we will have to wait to find out.
  • take the Verge for grant, they've been on a rampage lately. Thought they ditched their Microsoft Tribe's forum already! LOL
  • Smart phone speculation, isn't fun? I think so. But it seems to me the people with the info (MS) aren't talking and the only people who are talking have really no idea what's going on. And the tech blogs are caught in the middle. As one of many who has no idea what's going on, I think it's better for MS to keep the details quiet for now. Silence keeps the interest up and the secrecy keeps doppelgangers down. I have a DVP and I love it. WP7.5 runs great on it just like the lumias. Even my camera sucks like on the lumia 900. But I love it! So as I hope for WP8 on my DVP I will continue to use it, love it, preach the WP doctrine and allow MS time to fully develop WP8 so it isn't another BB10. And besides we all know the hardware and software issues that came about by rushing the lumia 900 into production.
  • If WP8 supports a dual-core chipset, it might be difficult to craft a meaningful update for the current (single-core) machines. Hopefully, though, they will be smart and bring some new goodies to the single-core machines as Apollo is launched.  I guess that we're learning - or about to learn - how much MicroSoft is an engineering vs. a marketing driven organization.
  • I was running a digital music studio on a Intel P4 (single core) only 12 months ago. It worked well. Apollo won't be a 'gaming' OS so it should be sweet on a single core.
  • My best guess is that it will not, at least not the same update. The scenario you describe of separate updates makes sense. Microsoft's arm reqs for windows 8 are above any current Windows Phone.
  • I don't think anyone is expecting a WP7 phone to get a full WP8 upgrade.  But like with Android and iOS, the phones should be upgradable as far as they are able.  So I expect all new features that can run on this gen's hardware should do so.  Not asking for magical kinect features or super high-rez screen. 
    I do expect upgrade parity on this ecosystem, however. 
  • Some Apollo devices will get 800x480 screens or even smaller - I think this is almost sure, given the constant pressure to lower prices. And a system non-working on a single core... are you kidding?
    No, there are only four possible technical reasons Apollo won't run on current devices:
    a) It will require 1 GB or more memory.
    b) It won't support Qualcomm Snapdragons S1/S2.
    c) Too complicated and risky upgrade process, as the new version uses very different internal data structures, different isolated storage etc.
    d) Apollo requires sealed and/or encrypted ROM and SSD.
    B is almost nonsense too. C may be true, but it's definitelly solvable and process-only thing, D may be true, but they can just relax this requirement on the old devices and it's slved.
    So the only valid reason would be the memory, I guess.
    My guess is that 512MB devices will get Apollo, but 256MB (Tango) devices won't.
  • I think it's best not to get to upset about rumors. If MS will really not provide any updates to current devices than it's time to get upset. I do hope MS knows that not proving updates to Lumia 900 and the like will certainly the death nail for Windows Phone.  Just think about the Smartphone Betatest campaing by Nokia - if the Lumia 900 will be obsolet a few month after its launch, than that launch would certainly match the "smartphone beta test" moniker best and Nokias reputation will definately be burned.
    What makes me uneasy is that MS still keeps silent (and that they did make stupid decissions in the past like XBox companion for iOS giving away one exclusive selling point). Most likely there are good reasons for keeping silent apart from not releasing an update. The best explanaition for me is, that it isn't an easy announcement like "all devices will get updated". Maybe only some will get an update, since even because the phones are similar there is still firmware-customization needed and some hardware partners might not be willing to do that work. Or maybe the featureset of updated WP7 phones will be significantly different from new WP8 phones.
    Anyway: given that all these are only rumors I'm giving MS the benefit of the doubt but hope they clarify the situation sooner than later. If it really turns out that my Lumia 800 won't get updated, than it's probably time to jump ship because Nokia/MS would have lost all contact with their customers.
  • as much as I'd be pissed at not getting an update, I actually think MSFT shouldn't worry about upgrading any WP7 devices to WP8 (if it means compromising functionality). ok, hear me out.. if MSFT can really fulfill on its vision of three screens, with apps roaming from W8 to WP8 to Xbox 888 (?), and greater functionality in the next OS, and the only thing preventing that (or compromising performance) would be having to support, lets be honest the 10 million of us (and I think I'm being pretty generous here), then it would be a huge mistake. I really think MSFT's turned a corner and finally realized that competing against fruit that have full control over hardware and software, and frequently ignore backwards comparability in favor of performance, cannot be done with the mindset of always trying to support older systems. they should just push ahead and put out such great tech that people will want to upgrade, even at a higher cost.
  • ..and since they (and Nokia) don't seem to be afraid to drop some $$, I'd say an ideal solution for us (current users): offer for anyone with any WP7 device still on-contract an upgrade to a WP8 device at the 'new contract' price.
  • As someone who just bought his device unlocked and not on contract, I'd be completely unsatisfied by this. I bought an Omnia W in January because it had about the same specs as the Lumia and had a much lower price (and half the storage sadly). While it was mostly a "testing the waters" phone, I'd be seriously upset if the device was left behind already. I'd be going back to my iPhone and never look back. Oh, and I'm not at all unhappy with iPhone btw. It still works better and more seamlessly than Windows Phone (and has no issues unlike my Omnia W), but I do dig the Windows Phone experience and want to see where MS takes it. I hope they let me. If not it's goodbye for me, because then the only Windows-based thing I'll be touching is a new Xbox.
  • This story changes my whole attitude towards the Nokia/Microsoft partnership.  In fact, it makes me feel used and disgusted.  So we, who took the chance with an unproved device; one that has some flaws which we are willing to overlook and work with; now, those of us locked into 2 year contracts will be cast aside like yesterday's news when an improved software is released - most likely correcting the flaws we are living with.  THIS is typical Windows Microsoft of yesteryear, which is exactly why we left in droves for Apple's phones.  As for me, I am considering returning the phone and going back to the one who respects its customers.  Way to go Microsoft.  
  • Don't panic, I think even if Microsoft wanted to do this, Nokia did everything to stop it. Such maneuver would kill their investment into the Lumia 900 launch instantly.
  • Microsoft does not have a habit of abandoning platforms - I don't know where you get that from. If anything they support old platforms for too long.
    You need to step back and relax.
    Let's say the worst happens and you don't get an Apollo update. Your phone will still do EVERYTHING that you bought it to do.
    Personally though I will be very sad if at least gen 1.5 phones don't get Apollo...
  • You mean the one who told its customers that they're holding the phone wrong? Jajaja that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
  • I have a first Gen device though I don't expect to get a full updated..i would expect my other device 710 to receive a full updated
  • I don't see this that different from the apple approach. If I recall, they were releasing hardware upgrades to the iPhone just about every year (I know this will be more like 6 months). Each having its own enhancements. At some point they stopped the OS updates for particular phones due to hardware limitations e.g. The iPhone 3g. Even with the latest ios (3.x ?) on the 3g, it became unusable.
    Getting to my points, I would only want Apollo if it didn't compromise the performance of my current WP handset(900). Although I would hope to get the enhancements that are not hardware specific. I plan on buying an "Apollo" Nokia when it becomes available regardless of the fact I just acquired a 900, it didn't cost me a penny. We always seem to forget about the apple people, they went out and bought the latest greatest that apple had to offer irregardless of their contracts. Why? Well the product was good and it offered them something more previous model (4s, meh). I think Daniel had said this before, the 900 is just a foot in the door with other phones with higher spec on the way. If Apollo/win8 is that good, and with great hardware, people will buy it. For many people, its not always about the contract.
  • I agree with you and I'm very happy with my phone, because it works. If Apollo comes out the end of the year i will get one too.
  • The 3G actually got up to 4.x. While the performance did drop, it wasn't that bad. And if it was bad for some, a restore of the phone or reset of network settings would usually fix it. I should know. I had the problem at first. I decided to stick with 4.x because of the new features rather than downgrading, which would otherwise be a simple operation. The 3GS was introduced in 2009 and now runs iOS 5.1 which was released 42 days ago according to Wikipedia. As far as I've heard, it runs iOS5 quite nicely. I don't care about contracts. I prefer to buy unlocked as you pay way too much for your phone otherwise. I just have a piece of hardware that's still plenty fast (1,5 GHz, front facing cam, 512MB RAM) and considering that the 256MB devices just began appearing, it would be incomprehensible if first and second gen devices were left by the wayside. Especially the second gen ones. They just came out for crying out loud.
  • If they don't give my lumia 800 I will never trust Microsoft again.
  • Great writeup, Dan. Nice examination of the possible issues without just blasting out the negative like some other site. I'm persoanlly not chomping at the bit for Apollo or dual cores and all that malarky and do want a better device than my Radar but I will be cancelling my order with at&t and stayng with T-Mobile till some clarity comes to ths question. As lustworty as the 900 is I'm sure Nokia has even better in store for WP8 so i'd rather wait for that. Overall though Windows Phone just doesnt come across as being managed in the best way, IMO.
  • IMO I think the main question should be will the carriers bother sending out the update......
  • Settle down guys, MS isn't insane.  They're horrified of orphaning anything, be it software or hardware.  Given whats at stake they're going to find a way to update everyone, keep their base happy and keep regaining share.  If by some horrible twist they couldn't patch everyone they'd do a trade in.  They burned way more cash getting xbox off the ground for years, this is just as important to them and they have billions to do it.  So please, don't worry, it'll all turn out alright in the end.
  • Lets face it, the majority of the people with 900's / 2nd gen devices  do NOT even know about Windows 8 let alone Apollo so they wont be bothered. 
    For the other 1% (thats you guys) all Nokia needs to do is to say "Sorry we can't update you phone...but if you send it to us we will swap it for an Apollo Lumia 908 free of charge.  Would you be happy then? Yes you would. Problem solved.
    Will it happen? Who knows but really
    You knew upgrade path had not been anounced (and if you didn't you're just jumping on the <insert tears here> bandwagon)
    If its a problem you should have waited.
  • I feel there should be an "Occupy" joke in here somewhere.... Perhaps something to do with the 99%... =/
  • TheVerge? Really that is your "conflicting" source? These guys have been making money had over fist by running every negative WP7 story they can get their hands on. I thought you guys would be more objective. Guess not
  • I personally know the writer of that article at the Verge, used to work with him on this very site going back to 2009 and take offense at that statement. It's easy to troll on sites name calling others but it's not an argument We've heard the same thing as the Verge, as we say in the article, so evidently in your view we're the same Objective about an OS that hasn't been announced yet? That's a good one Please don't be a fanboy on this site, we don't want that around here. Have an opinion but don't be a jerk about it.
  • Well said.
  • Daniel, I think you have to forgive his sentiment. Your personal relationship with that particular Verge writer to the side, The Verge as a whole has taken a particularly negative stance against WP recently. They have gone from constructive criticism to flat out hating on the platform. They even went as far as publicly calling Windows a "poison" and a "cancer". Now, I don't expect you to read and follow another site in detail (you have to focus on your own), but let me tell you, their WP hate is disgusting to the point of making me puke. Again, please forgive the sentiment but The Verge needs to be put in a time capsule never to return.
  • I had high hopes for the Verge when it first started out but more recently everything just seems designed to provoke a reaction and garner as many page hits as possible. It seems as though it is just turning into Engadget, when it was staffed by the same people, again.
    Certainly, that is a pity as I was hoping that it would be a place I could visit for a good dose of properly written OS X, Linux and Windows Phone information. 
  • One could argue that the calling out of the Verge's recent behaviour in response to Windows Phone and Nokia is very worthy of critique and is hardly an example of objective journalism. After all, the editor of the aforementioned site is quite willing to create articles with a negative spin because they know it will provoke a reaction (http://wmpoweruser.com/the-rise-and-rise-of-anti-windows-phone-articles/). It becomes tiresome when the very professionals you are hoping to provide you with a decent source of news are, seemingly, the "fanboys" (how I hate that word) themselves.
    The thinly veiled motives of so many tech-sites are becoming ever more apparent and all it does is breed distrust in people like myself who would like some objective discourse. Thankfully, the latter is still present at wpcentral and is evident in that, while quick to praise, yourself and the other writers here are also quick to provide criticism and the other viewpoint without resorting to blatantly baited article titles. The same, unfortunately, cannot be said of many other sites now.
  • Daniel, this is the first time your cage got rattled and I read most of your comments.
  • Got schooled, didn't you? Here, I'll give you an emoticon for your hurt ego: :'(
  • First gen devices will be getting WP8, they will just be getting something like Apollo 2, Tango 1 devices will get Apollo1 and there will be an Apollo 3 for uber devices.  So Apollo 2 devices won't get things like 1080p recording...and might not even get to run some WP8 apps, but Microsoft has to do this...not for us, but for the developer community it is courting.
  • I am still with my Samsung Focus and I am waiting to see if I get WP8 on it. If they allow update to the old Focus I am planing to buy a new WP by the end of the year, but if the update for Focus does not come it signals clearly where Microsift is on updates and I will not invest further in a system that spits on the early adopters and loyal customers. I am alredy p... off about ATT blocking updates and not realeasing them right after MS does.
    I have already persuaded several people to go with WP over the past year, one of my friends just got Lumia 900, I hope I won't have to regret my recomendations when none of them are able to get WP8.
    The bottom line is, WP8 update is going to determine whether WP succeeds or fails.
    I can already hear all the backlash if there is no update for existing devices, would not want to be the PR person at MS or Nokia if that happens.
    Of course you want your phone to have the latest updates, but do you honestly think that if Apollo doesn’t come to earlier phones they won't get any other updates which add features to make the earlier phones on pair with the apollo devices? Hardware wise nothing will changes so the earlier phones will not get higher resolution, dual core of nfc. Probably the ui will stay the same right? So what will change? The kernel will be different. I honestly don’t know what for effect this will have on the phone. Maybe better intergration of skydrive and skype? I don’t see why this can’t come with an big update that isn’t Apollo. So what do we actually know about Apollo and why do people think that the added Apollo features cannot be added via other big updates?
    The biggest question of all: how come that since there are almost no facts, people already lose trust in Nokia and Microsoft and what to return their phone?
  • I personally dont see microsoft not releasing a WP8 version for all current handsets. However, there are some things you need to consider before knowing what WP* you'll have under the hood:
    1- New devices will have a true MinWin OS, possibly even WinRT. This will allow the Multi-Core Processor, expandable storage, and many other "desktop" features.
    2- First and Second gen devices will get a WP8-looking OS, it should act the same and have most of the same features. Seriously, it would be an engineering miracle to take all this hardware designed for Windows CE to use a MinWin environment.
    What does this mean to the end user? They'll still be able to have Windows Phone 8, but in a different capacity. I can't see Microsoft abandoning it's current user base... I mean come on, people are still using Windows XP and not until this year did they stop supporting it.
  • in regards to the expendable storage; I hope i will be able to use the microSD slot on my Focus as a normal removable sd catd slot and not as a merge with the existing memory as it is now
  • Of course you want your phone to have the latest updates, but do you honestly think that if Apollo doesn’t come to earlier phones they won't get any other updates which add features to make the earlier phones on pair with the apollo devices? Hardware wise nothing will changes so the earlier phones will not get higher resolution, dual core of nfc. Probably the ui will stay the same right? So what will change? The kernel will be different. I honestly don’t know what for effect this will have on the phone. Maybe better intergration of skydrive and skype? I don’t see why this can’t come with an big update that isn’t Apollo. So what do we actually know about Apollo and why do people think that the added Apollo features cannot be added via other big updates?
    The biggest question of all: how come that since there are almost no facts, people already lose trust in Nokia and Microsoft and what to return their phone?
    What do people actually expect for windows phone 8 software wise? Hardware wise it is obvious
  • Tango hasn't even been released. I think people need to calm down.
  • Tango is out in China and about to roll out on the Lumia 710. It's pretty much here.
  • OK Daniel, it's out in China on new devices. Let's be clear about that. It's not like it was rolled out in China and only China. Also you guys just reported that Tango is releasing in June.
  • If windows phone 8 requires better hardware then I won't have a problem. I will upgrade quickly..
  • How can the same company that got it so right on 10 different levels with the Xbox, continue to flirt with disaster on the mobile avenue. You have a fantastic base with an outstanding OS. Things that should be a no-brainer like multiplayer with the Xbox Live mobile games, assured updates, a working in house YouTube app, etc ; are frankly a cluster fuck threatening to topple what the OS has built on its own. Kudos Microsoft on making sure there is always the possibility of this venture failing.....Kudos
  • Simple. Xbox is Microsoft's baby. They make the hardware, software etc... It is a 110% closed system and they control every single aspect of it. Mobile is a different beast. They only make the software and have to contend with dozens of phones. It is the reason Apple is so successful with the iPhone. Just like the Xbox, Apple controls all aspects of the system. In other words, it is an apples to oranges comparison.
  • MSFT loves Xbox, but thier baby is Office.... Believe it...
  • That doesn't take away from my point that Microsoft controls ALL aspects of the Xbox and thus nullifies his argument. And yes Xbox and Kinect is their baby, as well as office and anything that brings in the dough.
  • >> Tango hasn't even been released. I think people need to calm down.
    Agreed Verkunder.  What I find funny are the people that say they love the OS and proclaim how they have chosen the phone over iOS & Android as its so much betetr and then in the next breath come out with the all the indignation about how their perfectly good top of the range phone will be useless in 2013 (because lets face it you will NOT see any Apollo phones in the SHOPS this year) and how they will shun MS from now on and go back to the OS's they previously rejected.
    Well all I have to say is 'you will REALLY love going back to iOS or CloneDroid after a year of WP7, enjoy'. (thats sarcasm btw)
  • THIS. You nailed it. Took those words right outta my mouth. Thank you.
  • Seriously bunch of crazies in here. Honestly though they're the minority. Moet people suffer through much worse before they leave or aren't satisfied so im not worried.
  • Low in faith, that's the problem.
  • Going back to lots and lots of great apps will probably be quite alright ( http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/04/06 ).
  • Personally guys i cant see that throwing away the kind of money nokia microsoft and atnt just spent promoting the 900. If not the full effect of apollo at least some variant of the update. I cannot see the spending of that kind of money only to abandon it as a good business decision. Seriously MicroSoft you need to support previous phones if not how can you expect current supporters to stay on board, staying quiet about it isnt helping you in your struggle to get back in the game. All i can ask is please make a statement and clarify the situation so that i and many other supporters of your wonderful OS will be put at ease at the very least!
  • I really hope there is some sort of upgrade path for at least the 2nd round of devices, the ones that launched with Mango.  But the whole thing feels a little too much like the Palm fiasco between webOS 1.4.5 and 2.0.  Months of silence, then a commitment only to be followed by a retraction and an empty promise to "make it right."
  • I truly think the Apollo update will be available to most current windows phones. The iphone 3gs didn't get many of the ios5 features, and android phones are horrible with all phones equally being updated, I believe most windows phones got the mango update.
  • I think we will get some Windows Phone 8 features on our current gen phones.  But I bought my Lumia knowing very well that not getting WP8 was a possibility.  I figured that by the time my upgrade rolls around (Nov, 2013) there will be more WP8 handsets on the market to choose from. The OS might have gone through some updates to iron out some bugs.  And prices should be more affordable.  The Lumia was just too beutiful for me to pass on.   And frankly, WP7.5 does everything I need from a phone.   I'm sure WP8 is going to be better but I think most of those better features will be on the hardware side; higher resolution, better camera, dual core, etc.  I'm OK with the Lumia specs.  But I still think WP7 handsets will se some benefits of WP8.    Plus AT&T did say we where gettting a major update down the road that included the keyboard fix.  It could be the one that brings some features of WP8 or WP8.....
  • You all are some overly emotional people. These people are still writing the code for the OS yet you people want them to commit to something they don't even know will work. Now you guys are aiming guns at MS for some rumor that the big dogs at MS had no part in spreading. Attacks on inside and outside I see. It really is hilarious MS can't win no matter what they do. Here I am with my 900 and I say they should come out and say they will never update any phones now or in the future so the bitches can stop bitching about what's even unknown to MS. So much excess emotions has me shivering.
  • i own a 900 as well im not complaining with the phone i simply would like the company im investing money in to be my mobile platform to show some commitment to those who gave the Os a chance in the beginning to give them the market share they currently have show some attention to them is all.  i use all of microsofts products because i actually like them better than the competitors but the mobile aspect is kind of an annoyance to say the least..
  • I feel that most current phones will get wp8, most of the windows phones got the last mango update. Also for those who are saying they'll switch platforms, Ios 5 wasn't compatible with the 3g and the 3gs only received certain features as for android they're update compatibility is a mess. I have the titan 2 and I'll give Microsoft the benefit
    Of the doubt, so far they've earned it more than apple and android.
  • I certainly hope my new Titan will get Windows 8! I don't mind if it comes a bit later than the launch of the third gen handsets, as long as it comes.
    Maybe they could do a lite version for first gen handsets if there are performance issues?
  • ... If you're gonna be upset enough to leave your WP7 and get a new phone... Why not let that new phone be WP8? 
  • Not everyone is able to switch phones every 2 years :)
  • Well one would assume that WP 8 phones will not be upgraded to the next version because WP 7.5 devices just got orphaned.  This will be the problem Microsoft will run into.  
  • So the head of Marketing just quit after only 5 months. Doesn't make me feel confident of the future of WPs. Have to imagine he's seen Apollo and doesn't believe it'll be a game changer like many of us thought it would be.
  • That's a lot of speculation. Could be a number of reasons why he left. Maybe someone else thinks he's done such a great job that they've given him an offer he couldnt refuse to leave...
  • FTA "Normally, not announcing features or upgrade paths for a major OS overhaul is not that big of a deal, heck Apple does this all the time."
    Not really. You're thinking of hardware announcements. Apple always announces OS stuff (in detail) a good 5 or 6 months in advance at WWDC. Anyways, there's never a question with iOS. You know your device is going to be updated for at least a couple years.
  • One of the arguments I saw over at the verge for why current handsets won't be able to run WP8 because of the different kernel and the bootloader not being able to deal with it. Now that seems like a plausable explanation, but honestly I don't know enough about how OS's work to really make an educated guess either way.
    To play devils advocate to that point though, how can devices like the HD2 run WiMo as well as Android? I understand that WM and WP both use Windows CE, but Android is a completely different game. Couldn't one simply apply the same logic to WP7/WP8 and assume that Microsoft can come up with a workaround (maybe a new bootloader)?
  • No one is as unafraid to spill the beans without the backlash of things being not as true as he thought as MSNerd. He goes out on a limb and although he has been wrong before he still remains active and takes questions on Twitter. This "unnamed source" at the Verge is just another Joshua Topolski creation, when he realized he gets the most comments and site traffic when inflammatory or negative things are said about WP7. A lot of tech sites have jumped on this bandwagon because, as our top 5 highest rated phones on amazon show you, that we may be a small group, but we are vocal. We love our OS and even go out of our way to convert others when M$ marketing fails to do so. Keep smoking other phones like @BenThePCGuy taught ya and let Microsoft know and your carriers that you will switch if they are to blame for stopping updates. They want an alternative to the horrible machine that is iOS, then they have it.
  • very good...
  • Modest suggestion to tech journalists: Next time you get to interview some important guy who knows about this ask him when they will unveil WP8. At least they may be able to say this much.
  • Iam an avid fan of Windows Phone. I currently have DVP, HTC Radar and just paid $529 for the Lumia 900 (Including tax, cover and screen protector) from AT&T off contract. Iam not even eligible for any of the discounts and rebates Nokia and AT&T are offering because I dont have an AT&T account and I only tether my Radar on the Lumia. I have personally lured 34 people to purchase  Windows phone ranging from unlocked DVP, HTC Surround, Samsung Focus, Lumia 710 and Lumia 900 and Im still directing people to Amazon and other sites where cheap unlcoked first generation Windows Phones can be purchased. However if it is really true that none of the current generation Windows Phones will get Apollo, I will be the first person to switch. Im giving myself up till the end of April and if Ms does not confirm or deny these rumors I would return the Lumia 900 and begin planning on which platform I will join next. I hate Apple and Android and I cant imagine myself using any of these platforms but I might consider Symbian if it comes true that No Mango device will get Apollo. Im not mad because I cannot purchase a New Windows Phone with Apollo but the fact is it would make it very difficult for some of us to defend the Platform against the loud mouthed vociferous fandroids and i-turds out there ready to crucify MS at ther least instance. Pleaaaaaaasee!!!!!!!!!!! MS do it for the sake of your fans. 
  • But what do you expect of Apollo? What do you think Apollo will bring what is essential for your Lumia 900? How come you think their will be no other updates which will bring new features but maybe isn't called Apollo.
  • Good question.
  • Listen Up. Apollo will open the doors for dual-core processors and higher display resolutions. These CANNOT be added to your Lumia 900, it's impossible (unless you'll change your hardware manually).
    However! ! ! Your phone will do get all Apollo OS Features which is going to have. Because you won't need a dual-core or quad-core for it. I'm sure of that. And even if you'd need more cores, you'd still be able to get 75% (if not more) of the features Apollo will bring.
  • Nokia has announced that Symbian is a dead end. Microsoft will likely make their announcement in August. That puts you in a tough spot. If you jump ship now and then MS announces an upgrade path you will hate yourself. Wait for the official announcement.
  • @mccasive...Why must you or anyone defend the platform?  It is no ones job or occupation to do so, other than Microsoft.
    At the end of the day, even if Microsoft does update Gen 1/2 devices, there is no way those devices will get to experience all the bells and whistles that an actual Apollo device will, be it hardware or software.  Then guess what?  People will bitch about being 'shafted' with regards to the features. 
    As someone else mentioned earlier, Microsoft is damned if they do, damned if they don't.
  • I think the word is "jibe" not "jive".
  • I will upgrade my 1st gen device independently of the official statement. But i just hope they keep updating and supporting those older phones.. not only the community, but also some devs could lose interest in the platform.
  • I just hope this forces MS to come out and say one way or the other. All these rumors are going to do now is kill the momentum Nokia was getting with the L900. I imagine that is exactly what The Verge was wanting all along. I believe all the current devices will get some subset of Apollo even if they dont get the full upgrade. I hope MS doesnt make me regret everyone I have gotten to switch to WP.
  • Make sure you let your friends know that... After today's biggest confusion I've done some research. What I found is that Apollo will come to all Windows Phone 7 handsets, but not fully that means not all features will be updated to your phone. What do you mean it will come but not fully?
    Apollo will support higher resolution, multiple cores, NFC beaming etc. These cannot be integrated in the current deviced. If I won't get HD display on my Lumia 900 nor dual core what do I get -.-?
    You will get (most likely) the Operating System, just as you got Mango (Ex: Improved Multi-tasking, TellMe updated, more options for personalization). That's it. I hope I cleared you all out. Thanks to: WPCentral, WMPowerUser, Microsoft & MS NErd. Oh and one more thing for The Verge: Next time you write a post, make sure you create the same confussion around the tech-world. /s
  • Riiiight. You did your research on sites that promote the platforms. All of them with WP or MSFT in their names. Wow, that's some pretty impressive investigative skills you've got there! love it that everyone is reading The Verge yet retreats here to mend their butt hurt egos. Its pathetic that this crowd is 1% of the WP user base, which is in itself 4.5% of the market. Shrivel small.
  • Right, you make fun of his investigative skills yet you proclaim that this crowd is 1% of the WP user base. Did you pull that one (the statistics) out of your ass?
  • Well unless they give every Windows Phone owner a "free" phone AND free accessories, when WP8 is released, that would be suicide. Plain and simple.
  • second this!
  • sorry double post :D
  • Hello Everyone. Read this if you want to know what's going on with Apollo.
    After today's biggest confusion I've done some research. What I found is that Apollo will come to all Windows Phone 7 handsets, but not fully that means not all features will be updated to your phone.
    What do you mean it will come but not fully?
    Apollo will support higher resolution, multiple cores, NFC beaming etc. These cannot be integrated in the current deviced.
    If I won't get HD display on my Lumia 900 nor dual core what do I get -.-?
    You will get (most likely) the Operating System, just as you got Mango (Ex: Improved Multi-tasking, TellMe updated, more options for personalization).
    That's it. I hope I cleared you all out.
    Thanks to: WPCentral, WMPowerUser, Microsoft & MS NErd.
    Oh and one more thing for The Verge: Next time you write a post, make sure you create the same confussion around the tech-world. /s
  • I would love it if they would release WP8 for existing devices, but I wont be that bothered if they dont. I love the Lumia for what it is right now and I think I can be happy with it until I'm eligible for an upgrade in 1.5 - 2 yrs. Has anyone used an iPhone 3GS recently running the latest iOS? Its terrible. I'll take the update if it performs well, but if its anything like running iOS 5 on a 3GS, no thanks.
  • Why does this site continue to quote or care about Apple Loving sites like verge and engadget???? I don't care who used to work here at WpCentral... Their allegiances are worn on their sleeve and it has a big fat ugly partially eaten apple. Does anyone believe some Apple jerk is going to give Windows Phone or Windows 8 the correct time of day??? Or a proper review??? Get back in your cage sheep...bahhh.bahh....But SteveJ said ........ Losers.
    Just like Hollywood or TV shows. If you gauged the computer use by movies and shows, you would come away thinking that Crapple is the only device people use. Windows 7 has only sold 500 Million copies. So I don't think every fool on every show or movie has a Crapple. Apple people making movies, shows, commercials will go out of their way to place a rotten partially eaten apple logo on the screen, when it absolutely has nothing to do with the shot or scene ( I have a loser Nephew that does this exact garbage). They are impossible people to deal with.
    Who cares what those scared apple isheep think??? They give the Nokia bad reviews because of App the supposed lack of Apps (yeah I want to flip through 500,000 apps).
    As far as I’m concerned those fools are scared and a bit jealous.
      “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
    .... Mahatma Gandhi
  • Dude, you really need to gain some perspective
  • perspective of what ???? I call it as i see it.
  • I feel fans of anything that have to resort to calling others "losers" has lost perspective. I enjoy my Wii, I enjoy 360, I enjoy my iPod and I enjoy my WP. I enjoy all these pieces of tech and have had nothing but good experiences with these companies and products. However as much as I enjoy these things, that's as far as my fandom goes with these brands. And let me make it clear, its not everyone in the WP, Apple or Android communities. But it's a sad thing to see when people get so worked up defending a company/product who, at the end of the day, could give two s$%Ts about you and only care that you are buying their product
  • I'm not necessarily defending MSFT. I am opposed to this site reporting anything that the Verge or Engadget has to say about an OS that they care nothing about.
    Not sure what your experience is in dealing with computer or technical people but, I can say that the MAIN reason I despise Apple is because of their sheepish users  that follow them around. If I think someone is a 'loser' because they can't make a 5 minute film clip without putting a Crapple logo in the scene, then that is how I feel. I don’t think I’ve lost perspective. If anything I feel that I have perspective because I’m not wearing those Apple glasses and doing everything that company TELLS you to do. And I feel that this same sentiment is rampant at the Verge and Engadget and most defiantly Hollywood.
    By the way... I thought Tom Warren went over to the Verge to cover MSFT.... So why didn't this article come from him ??? Someone from a different 'department' (don’t know or care about their staff)  was chosen to write this article. Okay...
  • Maybe that's the disconnect I have with some on the site. I know many people who are into computers and technology as far as what's under the hood. But I can't say I am around those folks enough to gauge their feelings on a certain brand or company. I am around everyday folks who use iPhones (my wife and the majority of her co-workers) and as far as I know, they enjoy their iPhones. And for what its worth, most of them have PC's if that is of any significance to the discussion. So I would hardly classify those folks as blindly following Apple. Not to say these people are representative of all iPhone/Apple consumers. I am sure there are those who use nothing but Apple products and think they can do no wrong. I just don't think its as prevalent as some on here make it out to be or at least its not indicative of all Apple consumers. I guess in the end, I don't really care for fanboyish battles. And I don't mean that as any disrespect to you. Just as it irks me to see iPhone users blankedly being referred to as iSheep, it irks me to see PS3 blankedly refer to anyone who uses a 360 as Xbots. Let people use whatever the heck gadget they want and you the same.
  • Bravo to someone that actually makes sense here.
  • We're cool...
    I'm not trying to classify all people as blind sheep and I would like to think that people are buying what they wanted to buy. BUT the individuals selling them the equipment ARE isheep. They point customers to buy certain stuff because they think it’s cool. That's what I mean by isheep, and I deal with these people ALL the time so I may be a bit jaded...
    I totally agree... let people choose, buy, and use whatever device suites them. My main complaint was towards isheep sites such as Verge and Engadget. These sites advertise themselves as overall 'Tech' sites but when the Tech leans heavily in a certain direction it's hard to take anything these people say with any validity.
    No offense to you or your wife. My intentions were towards those sites.
  • perspective of what ???? I call it as i see it.
  • As Tony said, zero perspective. Mostly butt hurt eh ;-)? You know that no mature adult can take you seriously when you use a Ghandi quote for the oppressed and make it to symbolize the struggles if WP.
  • it’s a quote... I'm not supporting Gandhi or whatever movement. The words make sense if you dig a little deeper.
    If you need translation = Apple people ignored Windows Phone 7 when it launched.... Then they laughed at the Marketplace.... Right now it seems Apple wants to fight over this stuff... Then in a few years Windows will WIN..... Yes we will WIN!!!!
  • I agree with you......all haters and scared for change. I prefer apple ios over android any day. Wp7 is just different "Think different!"
  • I think it's going to be like how IOS 5 is now, the 4s received all features (siri) but the 4 and 3gs only receive certain features. I believe Gen 1 will get some features while Gen 1.5 will get most if not all the features that aren't hardware dependent
  • I'm pretty sure that's how it is going to be. The only features that none can get are the dual-cores, higher resolution display, NFC Beaming... :)
  • The problem here and what appears to be going on, is that the WP community is so hard up to find a d report ANY news on the platform that everybody starts repeating an unconfirmed story. To make it more ridiculous, these antiWP stories are coming from Engadget and The Verge. Not people I would particularly call credible. The tail is wagging the dog. It looks to be a lame plan to discredit the advancements made on the platform or market. They are essentially writing your news stories for you. No matter how unfactual they are. What would be worse, is if we were repeating stories started from All Things Digital. Those guys starting with Mosss are the largest group of uninformed fanboi tools around.
    The WP community has an opportunity to responsibly report what can be verified. Those who do will shine as the trusted source. Dan Rubino and Rafael generally present honest opinions on the platform. Mist other sources I take with a huge grain of salt.
  • Really tough to tell going on from just rumors, but let's see what we have here. We have two "reputable" tech blogs citing sources say they won't be coming, then we have this employee stating it is coming, and also, when Apollo details were leaked, they were confirmed by Paul Thurott of WinSuperSite, who just went out, and paid full price for the phone due to early upgrade. I'm not sure someone with some inside information (he stated "Obviously, there are still plenty of questions and of course information I'll continue to protect. But suffice to say that Microsoft's plans for Windows Phone are quite exciting indeed."), so I'm hard pressed to believe that he would go and plunk down 500$ for the Lumia without expecting it to get Apollo unless he plans on plunking down another 500$ at the end of the year, or early next year for another Windows Phone. Sure he could probably get it for free from Microsoft, but I doubt he could wait long enough for that to come in, like what happened with the Lumia 900. Now the verge says there won't be an Mango to Apollo update, but if we take this literally, what about Tango to Apollo? That leads to Tango's update for lower end phones to enter the market with lower RAM requirements and what not. Why lower the requirements for Windows Phone 7, to broaden the hardware available for it, then suddenly box out lower end phone with the next update? But you could refute that the new lower end would be the phones that came with Mango while Apollo becomes the higher tier, similar to what Apple did with the older iPhones from 3G and below I believe (left them on the lower iOS, and then AT&T started selling em for cheap). It is really hard to tell, but we have to remember that Microsoft neither has confirmed or deny any of these rumors going on. I'm leaning for it that all 2nd gen phones will recieve the Apollo update, but you'll just be missing a lot of neat little things.
  • It would make sense for first gen devices to get some kind of upgrade to put them up to speed but it might not be full blown Apollo in all its glory.  Apollo Lite or something maybe.  Hoping Apollo will be flexible so if you have a low end device, it runs but not full potential.  Then you have a flagship device where it's 100% full feature.  It would make sense at least.  We'll see.
  • People. If you wanted an Apollo based phone then you should have waited. Ita as simple as that. Backwards compatibility is not always promised or even preferred. Imagine the bloat that Apollo would have to have to support the older phones. I for one will keep using my focus 1st Gen until the Apollo models come out.
  • Well said. My sentiments exactly. I'm hanging off until new Apollo devices are available as I want full functionality & not a lite version. It honestly would be too much work to fragment the OS to suit 1st, 2nd & 3rd gen devices.
  • I'm not 100% confident current devices will get WP8, but I'm more than sure MS won't abandon the current user base; they'll get some form of upgrade - worse case scenario.
  • I believe our wp7 phones will be upgraded to apollo but certain things will not be available because of hardware limitations. It only makes sense that if they pack more in it will need more.
  • I think it will happen. I just believe some features will not be there. For example my old Surround 7 does not have the voice for turn by turn navigation but it's still Mango
  • I say we not get too worked up over what tech blogs that just want to bring down WP say. Honestly I wouldn't be upset at all if my HD7 didn't get updated because I was planning on getting a new phone around then anyway as most HD7 users.
  • I think that this is just a marketing strategy to get Blogs and users talking about windows phone so that when the time comes people will be anticipating the release with more enthusiasm. Even the ones who hate Windows Phone will be waiting in line to know.
  • so the question is, does Microsoft want to follow in Apple's footsteps, or Google's.
    Android devices rarley get official updates. If you want the latest and greatest, you have to get a new device. That's great for the hardware companies. But doesn't help Google much.
    Apple tried to update all older devices that can handle a new version and they shutoff certain features that can't be handled (or in the case of siri, they disable it for older devices because it's the only way to market the 4S)
    I've been hearing a lot that carriers don't want to update existing devices. I don't know why that would be true. Sure, if you buy a new subsidized device you're locked in for two more years, but that costs them money. If after two years, they can update my phone and I get all these new features, I'll probably stay with them and they want have to spend money on my device.
    Most people don't need the latest and greatest, which is why cheap android phones older iphones are selling.
    As far as the Lumia 900 goes, The standard in the market place is that phones that were release half a year before a major update will get that update. Even Android devices are getting updates in the first year (it just takes a long time)
  • still all speculation i guess just have to wait and see what happens.
  • Correct me if I am wrong--developere please chime in.  As I understand it, WP8 is getting a whole new Kernel.  The kernel is responsible for the most basic I/O between the hardware and the software.  Developing a solid Kernel is the most essential aspect of running a solid sturdy OS.  MSFT does this better than anyone.  I know people think iOS is the best Kernel--but remember, it only has to support one piece of hardware.  MSFT's Kernel has to run on many different type of hardware and this exponentially complicates their task.  Its like a universal translator that allows apps to speak to different type of phones.  Apps only need to know one language and the phone hardware can speak in whatever language it wants--the kernel translates.
    The point is that if a whole new Kernel is being instantiated, it is unlikely to be able to run on the old devices.  The Kernel was not designed to support those phones and would not be stable on older devices.
    HOWEVER, it wont affect Mango users too much.  You will still be able to use most of the new apps.  Apps sit on top of the Kernel and anything that sits on top of the kernel should only be limited by your phones limitations.  You will still have an excellent OS.  
    What you might miss:  There may be additional stability associated with the new Kernel.  However, the OS as it stands is pretty robust--additional stability wont make much of a different.  There may be slightly better integration with Windows Tablets and PCs.  Again though, I feel the integration right now is pretty solid.
    Apollo is likely to be a significant change at the back end, but only a minor change at the front end.  
  • WP8 is indeed getting its kernel from the same codebase as W8 and that's the big change as MSFT can then cherrypick those W7/W8 features that make sense on the phone. Now, getting that kernel running on the current phone hardware is not the issue as MSFT has already demoed its ARM version. However, reading the leaked feature set of WP8, my guess is that Bitlocker support is something that cannot be done on gen 1-2 hardware. It currently requires hardware support for the encryption as well as a TPM chip. Maybe there will therefore be WP8 and WP8 Pro?
  • Whether gen1/2 devices gets an update is not entirely in Microsoft's hands. It depends also on the OEM if they want to support WP8 for the device and also the cariers. I can't see a reason why the older devices cannot have WP8 but if the issue is with OEM/Cariers your best bet is to buy a Nokia phone.
  • I'm hoping Microsoft will take ownership of the OS updates once Apollo arrives. I would never agree to have my ISP determine whether I was going to get a service pack upgrade to my desktop.
  • Whatever, probably couldn't speak the proper English...as far as going seven to eight, its not like the geek patrol aren't going to try to jimmy the OS on devices ANYWAY! How many OS can YOU get crammed into the HD2??? =P
  • BTW everyone please quit essaying in comments, can't you get your own blogs? For WordPress sakes, man... :S
  • Lol
  • For me a smartphone is about an investment in a platform,
    * If you buy an iPhone you can feel safe knowing you will get support and updates for a couple of years (but maybe not the features that are hardware dependent of course).
    * If you buy an Android you can feel safe knowing that you will get a smartphone with an already mature OS, and almost life long upgrades through the community when the manufacturer stops upgrading.
    Now the WP flag ships Nokia Lumia 900 and HTC Titan II is released, where is the calming statements from Microsoft saying that these devices will not be obsolete by the end of the year?
    In my opinion, WP 7.5 is not an mature, fully functional smartphone OS. Just look in the forums, all the new WP users (including myself) who are missing advanced as well as basic smartphone features, the answer is always "wait for WP 8" or "Apollo will bring that to WP".
    I cant help feeling fooled as an early adopter with a flag ship phone with weak hardware, first everyone said that dual core and high specs is just for Android and iOS that are badly optimized and heavy driven. WP is soo different and does not need any powerfull hardware.
    Half a year later we will get WP 8 with Dual Core support, hi res displays etc. I can live with that, but not the fact that there is even a doubt that the recent high end phones will be updated!
  • What I don't understand is why people are getting so irritated and threatening to go iPhone over a RUMOR about an update WE KNOW NEXT TO NOTHING ABOUT.  As others have said, technology moves forward very rapidly and at some point someone is going to get left behind.  Most of you claim to love the OS and your phones right?  Your WP 7.X devices will continue to work just fine, just like it does now.
    We have no clue what "Apollo" will bring, just like we didn't know all the facts about "Tango" until recently.  It's silly to worry about what ifs at this point as we have no idea how drastic or miniscule an update Apollo will be.  Chill out, enjoy your awesome phones.  When the time comes, you can moan and complain and threaten to leave MS forever!!11!!!
  • I don't see any reason to necessarily assume "no WP8 update" means "obsolete."
    MS could continue updating WP7.5 and WP8 devices together. It's possible they'll reserve WP8 branding for devices that meet certain new tech requirements (dual core? Kinect sensor?). Heck, they could even maintain them with more-or-less total feature parity and just reserve the branding.
    I really doubt they'll just leave all 7.5 devices with zero updates, since they're well aware of that being a major sore spot for Android and WP was supposed to be designed with upgradability in mind.
    I don't think there's enough here to bother being upset about. Even if MS DID say "all phones get WP8" that doesn't mean anything -- THAT could just be branding and the cool new features could only go to new phones.
    This is just two offhand, contextless comments.
  • Nobody expects Apple to divulge release information, so why are they being so ruff on MS??. Previous iPhones have not been able to upgrade to the latest OS, and Microsoft hasn't committed to any time frame for the next major release of WP. For all we know lumia 900 users could have their devices for a long time before anybody gets a update. The update could come mid 2013, so Lumia owners would get there moneys worth whether they get updated by December 2012 or not. The point is to buy a device that you like now. Buy it for the features that you can put up with for the ready of your contract, because no update is guaranteed.
  • All current wp7 will get the update, it will be different from what wp8 will have but current wp7 phones will get an update, its kinda like the front facing camera for some WP,if u want a ffc u have to switch, wp8 will be different off course!! The major buying factor will be the HARDWARE and SPECS.. Its about time that customers will see new devices on the shelves on all 4 major USA carriers..
    I TOLD U SO.. updated or not, what current wp7 owners have is absolutely a problem free experience, im still getting a lumia updated or not..
  • Geez, I want a future-proof phone.  /eyeroll.  Everyone wants the most bang for their buck.  It is a possiblity that Microsoft is mum on the issue because they are busy testing (and developing)?  With Apple, they just need to test against a limited number of handset hardware - all of which they completely control and certify.  I'm just suggesting maybe they don't precisely know what their plans are yet in spite of any good intentions - that being: support WP8 on all existing devices. No one is more aware of how critical these types of issues are for a nascent user base than Microsoft - they are in it to win, at least they claim, so how about some time?  Lets all return to speculating on what Microsoft is doing with the future XBox and Apple's next iPhone.
  • The Verge are full of shit. Pardom my language. To think I backed them when everyone was dissing them not too long ago. 
  • Will Gen 1 devices get Apollo or not? Hmmm, the more this is discussed, the more it sounds like a marketing ploy taken right out of Apple's playbook.
  • MS are on very dodgy ground with this.  WP7 is struggling as it is.  They need to upgrade all legacy devices to WP8, after all we were promised these updates a long long time ago.  I was a very early adopter, switching from iPhone to WP7.  I read that the updates would be Mango and then Apollo (this was in November 2010) and that my HD7 would indeed receive all these updates.  Mango was a big update, but WP7 still lags behind Android and iOS despite this update.  The Tango update is a non-starter, I doubt it'll add anything new apart from languages that both Android and iOS have supported for a couple of years already.  We might even get 3D bing maps (not exactly earth shattering).  If MS do stab me in the back and not update my phone in any way then I'll never buy another MS product ever again.  I thought Apollo would have already been released (from the 2010 rumours it should have been).  I'll just move over to Apple whole hog.  Ditch my PC and buy a Mac and say goodbye to MS forever.  If I had one piece of advice for Nokia it is this - if you already know that your current devices will not receive the WP8 upgrade for god sake jump ship and release the 808 with Android.  Hell, do it anyway, a warning shot across the face of Microsoft - it'll probably be the most successful handset in your companies history.  Just do it for the gaffs MS have constantly made.  Do not invest one more cent in MS until they clarify the matter PUBLICLY.  Nobody trusts MS, and as a consequence nobody trusts Nokia.
  • I once watched an episode of American Dad where Stan went to get the perfect Xmas tree but it fell on top of him and he died. And when he got to limbo, there was an ice cream man who asked Stan what kind ice cream he wanted, Stan said vanilla. Then the ice cream man said 'oooh we're actually out of vanilla. Just kidding, see we tell people that we don't have their ice cream, but when we say that we do have it, it makes them happy!" my point by this is that MS probably isn't responding because they've realized that suspense and maybe relief following after are powerful tools to keep interest in what is going on around the platform. Of course until we get a concrete response, we're constantly going to be speculating, and MS seems to be using that as a tool to generate a large mass of interest. And honestly, I just got my Lumia 900 cyan and its definitely nerve-wrecking for me, but suspense is a powerful tool, and they're definitely showing how to use it.
  • Well, think again.
    MS want to sell phones and take market shares. The more the better, the sooner the better. Which would be the best strategy? To tell people that they have this new exciting WP 8 in pipeline for release later this year but they dont tell you if it will work with current phones or not.
    Or to tell people that the new exciting WP 8 will work on current WP 7.5 phones, so there is no reason why you wouldnt buy one today.
    They dont want people to wait and wait and in worst case go with another smartphone OS.
    Buy an iPhone 4S today and you know you will be safe for years to come. Buy an Android and you know you will have at least a massive community support.
    Buy an high-end WP phone today and you know.. what? At least the Lumia 900 is good looking but with rather obsolete hardware and may not even receive the Apollo upgrade? I dont say it wont, but I dont think I am alone to thing that MS dont want to respond because it would kill the sell of todays devices.
  • I think the suspense is an upshot from ms showing good business ethics and getting their business partners on the same page before whatever it is goes viral. OEMs shouldn't have to come across the info on Google. It should be a hand delivered message from MS, like a heads up. Then the real leaks may come.
  • Problem with this generation is that ppl stop enjoying what they have today and prefer to worry about what they might, or might not have tomorrow. Ppl dig to worry! Stressless life must be boring.
  • I understand how disconcerting this issus is but for me, I wouldn't trust a loser like Dieter or any one else at the Verge for information about this platform. They have a single vantage point from which to pull information. This platform is NOT IOS and definately NOT android.
  • Dieter is a friend of mine and I think your tone is a bit out of line. Are you aware that Dieter started this site you're on right now? He was actually always a Palm fan not Android or iOS. The Verge does not have an agenda.
  • My tone? Am I in danger of being banned from this site because a disagree with your friend? Doesn't change the narrative for me Daniel because he happens to be your friend. My point is this, if a reviewer thinks the phone needs more then keep to that script. It's a young OS and has much growing to do. However, when you launch into a story without supporting documentation or attribution, that smells like dead fish to me. That story said my Lumia 900 won't be upgraded. Based on nothing but air. Again, when it drops from microsoft, it is what it is. I'm good with that.
  • Not in danger of being banned. I never mentioned nor implied any such thing. Just asking you to not be such a jerk by calling people you don't know "losers" simply because you don't like the news (I have a feeling you'd be singing praises if the news was positive about Windows Phone). My point about him being a friend of mine was that he doesn't post nonsense nor is he sensationalist. He's a well trained and versed tech writer, not someone looking to slam Windows Phone or get ad-clicks. That's the sole reason why I have no problem reporting on his work -- I worked with him and under him for 3 years, I know his standards. You don't. Fact is he and I have both heard the same things from people that you've heard of (and if we named them, you'd say "ohhh..."). That doesn't mean it's the whole story which is why I'm on the fence about this topic.
  • Why would anyone want to run Windows Phone 8 on a phone with low and old specs when there will be new phones with HD screens, NFC, SD card, dual core processors, 1080p recording. Come one guys get with the game!!
  • the 2 OS scenario doesnt make sense. let's get 1 right before we talk about splitting it in 2.
  • I am a huge fan of WP7, but I for 1 will not be buying another new phone just to get WP8. I would be very disappointed if WP7 users didn't get an upgrade to WM8...This would be a step back for Microsoft, and a kick in the teeth for WM7 users.
  • I have a launch day HTC Trophy and it's OK.  It was OK when it launched and it still runs the OS smooth as butter.  Do I expect Apollo.  Heck yeh!  I bought the phone over a year ago I expect it to make it with updates for 2 years until my next contact (which I HOPE Verizon has some new devices or I'm leaving for AT&T).  I do love WP and if I didn't get Apollo I wouldn't be crushed.  I'd still love the OS. 
    What do we know?
    WP Apps will be able to be used on Apollo devices.  Microsoft says Yep.  That's great.
    What else do we know for sure...............Nothing.  It's all speculation.
    What do I think will happen?
    MS won't abandon the current WP users but will provide an update for current handsets.  It may not get ALL of the features of Apollo phones, but will be a good update.  Let's look at Apple and how they update phones.  When a new OS comes out they may not get certain features (such as Siri for example).  I think that makes sense, and it would be acceptable to me since I don't want a phone (like the 3GS) which was hampered by new updates.
  • If ms decides to deny access to the older phones it will just be one more thing they are falling behind on since android and apple give their previous handsets access to the updates. Its bad enough WP still doesn't offer an app/game backup and restore feature (to name one missing feature). I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
  • Hey, I believe that's an unreleased LG phone pictured...
    Is that phone this phone? http://www.gsmarena.com/lg_fantasy_e740-4066.php
  • What phone is that there, and how exactly did you even get that phone?
  • I'll have a story up on it today or tomorrow. Need some sleep.
  • As an HTC Titan Owner I kind of knew windows phone 7 was actually a stop gap for windows phone 8 ...there are still alot of holes is WP7 and will probably never be updated.
    Am sure Wp7 wasn't in the works till 2009. Thankfully, I have other competing devices as a backup if it all goes south. So am not that bothered if we get an upgrade or not.
  • I'll say the same thing I said to Andriod and IOS users, you may think you are a fan but you are just a consumer. It doesn't matter if you are loyal or not. (ask ex windows mobile users). Decisions will still be made without any consultation with you or I.
  • Has anyone thought about the fact that MS *is* a software company?
    What if the rationale behind not telling if the upgrade will be available is "You will have your update, if you pay for it" I mean, Apple sells the hardware, Google gets their money by selling users info, but MS really is interested in selling software, they won't make a dime on upgrading older phones. Yeah, we all current users would love a free update but think of it like when you a buy PC, you wont get the next Windows version unless you pay for it.
    I know that PCs and smarthphones are different businesses, but every company is in a business to make money, and to MS the business is selling the software... I'd be not-so-pissed if i had to pay... say 10 bucks for a MAJOR update, but we should keep getting the service packs free (Mango, Tango, etc) Am i talking nonsense?
  • I find this funny. The same crap that goes on everytime Apple is releasing a new phone. Will my (old school phone) 3Gs get the upgrade ?? <cry cry cry>
    I will stand here and say there is a 98% chance for first and a 100% on 2nd gen devices will get Windows Phone 8. This will be based on Carrier and feature set, kind of like Apple does. And if you live in XDA, there is about 100% for MOST devices.
    Why ? Because Microsoft wants very little fragmentation of Windows Phone. This is the BIGGEST problem with Android (new devices, some come with 2.3 others come with 4.0, no standard). There will be a major push on the carriers to put it out on devices, due to new software in the marketplace.
    Everyone calm down, Microsoft is finnaly gaining some marketplace in the smartphone market, they are not going to put it in the trash by doing something like that. They will burn a lot of fans by not making 1st gen units upgradable. I bet that was in the first plans for WP8 to be compatable to run on these devices...
    Time will tell but, I would bet that everyone would get the upgrade or a stripped down version but, the same basic OS for their devices.