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Nokia name to go away with the Lumia line as Microsoft seeks to unify branding

Nokia has taken to their Conversations blog this morning to answer some questions regarding the recent Microsoft announcement. The most frequently asked inquiries were taken to Tuula Rytilä, who heads up Nokia’s marketing, for clarification on exactly what is happening going forward.

For the most part, Nokia illuminates questions on branding transition, including the relevant “Nokia Lumia” name. The Microsoft-Nokia deal transfers the name “Nokia” over for mobile phone use to Microsoft for ten years, along with the ‘Lumia’ and ‘Asha’ brands, which will be owned by Microsoft.

But as pointed out during the conference call yesterday, Microsoft is taking this opportunity to streamline their branding. In other words, saying ‘Nokia Lumia 1020 with Windows Phone 8’ or any variation will eventually become a thing of the past. What it will be, remains to be seen but it’s clear that ‘Nokia’ won’t be used in future Lumia devices. In fact, it’s not even clear that ‘Lumia’ will be used either, though it could be phased out.

A modernized brand could help Microsoft in pushing its hardware to carriers and customers. A ‘Windows Phone 1020’ is certainly a lot simpler than the current naming conventions, which are made redundant with the presently separate products lines. Likewise for a ‘Microsoft Lumia 1020’, should Redmond opt to downplay the OS. It will also signify a true merger of the hardware and software, with little distinction.

Tuula Rytilä

Nokia's Tuula Rytilä (via Conversations)

Rytilä answers some other questions, including continued support and whether or not we can believe Microsoft will maintain the quality engineering that we’ve come to expect form Nokia. Here, Rytilä uses an interesting anecdote about the two teams:

“Microsoft and Nokia have very similar values and vision when it comes to product quality. It’s what has made Nokia Lumia and Windows Phone such a great match. We value great hardware quality, a seamless user experience.I recall a recent product workshop where we split into Nokia and Microsoft teams to describe our vision for the next generation of Windows Phone. When we came to compare our lists, they were almost identical.Design at Nokia is our approach to product making and embraces engineering and manufacture. It’s the expertise in that approach that distinguishes Nokia and made it something that Microsoft wanted.”

Interestingly, the Asha brand will continue on its entry-level path with the Nokia name, serving as an on ramp for smartphone purchases, but Microsoft will be bringing features like SkyDrive, Office and even Xbox to the line as well.

Finally, Rytilä notes that the key Research and Development sites in Finland: Salo, Tampere and Oulu, will remain as that “nucleus” is what the acquisition is about. That should bode well for engineers and the research scientists at Nokia who won’t be faced with a “move or quit” option, ensuring a smoother transition.

Still, like all things, intentions and realities are often two different things. We won’t see the effects of this takeover for quite some time and there are a lot of details that remain unanswered.

Source: Nokia Conversations

Daniel Rubino
Executive Editor

Daniel Rubino is the Executive Editor of Windows Central, head reviewer, podcast co-host, and analyst. He has been covering Microsoft here since 2007, back when this site was called WMExperts (and later Windows Phone Central). His interests include Windows, Microsoft Surface, laptops, next-gen computing, and arguing with people on the internet.

  • This is why we can't have nice things. 
  • Well, it may be bad, but The futures Windows phones are going to rule now that Nokia is working with Microsoft like one team only, and all Nokia staff went to Microsoft, Microsoft wants to make part of smartphones market, and Nokia needed microsofts money, future Will be big guys
  • That still remains to be seen. If the key people at Nokia who are responsible for the various innovations still remain, WP may be a success. If they leave, that will be a deathblow to Microsoft.
  • They won't, microsft alresday told that, 32000 Nokia staff are working now in Microsoft, Microsoft and nokias team under The same hood, I've always liked and trusted on Microsoft products and Nokia prdocuts, principally together (lumia)
  • Well, yes, that's because those 32000 employees were under the Nokia Devices division. But that does not prohibit them from resigning from the company. The deal is not over yet.
  • Yeah 32000 will resign because its so much easier to go out there and find jobs to feed your country. *slow claps*
  • I've been through a big merger myself. What typically happens is the employees that are absorbed are given a retention bonus. It's an incentive to stay for a set period of time. Depending on the retention bonus structure, if you leave before that set date in the future, you would have to pay back ALL of the bonus.
    I wouldn't doubt that's what will happen in this case. It's an insurance policy somewhat for Microsoft to retain talent.
    The risk is obvious. After the retention period, the employees can leave in mass. This has happened many times over and not out of the ordinary.
  • In addition to this February is usually a high month for layoffs in corporate worlds. 
    I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of people are let go.
  • Someone please explain to Microsoft that the Nokia and Lumia brands actually sell smartphones. The name Windows does nothing to sell a phone. This should be clear by now after the HTC 8X experiment and the fact that Lumia as a search term has far overshadowed windows phone.If you have the Nokia name for ten years and you don't use it, you are insane.
  • Well, somewhat depends on the country (re: Nokia and Lumia selling phones).  The people I talk to pretty much exclusively think that Nokia hasn't made phones for a decade.  Then again, I live in Hawaii (a very iPhone state) but again it all depends on geography.  It seems like n Europe/India/SE Asia that's probably true, but I think that at least India and SE Asia have less of a negative feeling for MS in general.
    MS will have an uphill battle, though...I don't know that dovetailing Apple's strategy will work as well for them, and in the US the Windows brand just isn't magnetic, for whatever reason.  I certainly hope the strategy works, though...I'd like to upgrade my NL920 to something even more fantastic.
    Id prefer they keep Lumia, though.  That's a good one.
  • *925. Sorry to say it, but he is right. Windows = where is my freakin' Start button, Lumia = phone with the awesome camera
  • Here in Northern Europe, anything with Microsoft branding will have a hard time and even turn people off. Nokia is still known by most consumers ("Connecting People") and, as one can see from this week's Kantar ComTech report, WP (87% Nokia) made a substantial leap forward in EU5 market share to 8,2%.
    The announcement has spurred press, TV or radio to report "The end of Nokia" which will turn people off from buying the existing Lumias now, many regular people assuming there will be no updates and service going forward, meaning regular people may think they'll buy a soon defunct device.
    In some way, Microsoft "helped" Nokia to not achieve the relatively upbeat Q3 sales figures that could have been achieved. With a "partner" like that - who needs enemies?
  • I totally agree with you. I'm from Italy and we are a core market for Nokia, here they have a really strong fanbase. Windows Phone was starting to spread just beacuse of the Nokia name. I bought a lumia 620 because it was green, fluid, and cheap but most of all because it was a Nokia. And this last thing convinced lots of Italian to try Lumias. If it had Android, Symbian, Ubuntu or whatever else OS I would have bought it anyways (as long as it wouldn't have had any serious flaw), and so would have done at least 50% of the owner of Lumias in Italy.
    With this rebranding I think they will sell less phones just because lots of people aren't geeks like us and don't know Microsoft phones will be made and designed by the same people who worked at Nokia, so I guess they should still keep the name like Sony did with Ericsson. MS-Nokia or Microsoft-Nokia would be perfect and wouldn't stop the momentum of the sales too much
  • Italy has always been a strong market for Nokia... i never really understood why that is
  • Neither do I. Guess we know how to appreciate the fact that a good phone has to be a phone first, quite reliable, with a good customer service and an overwhelming build quality. Nokia has always been true to these ideas in my personal experience, so I hope Microsoft won't waste their experience with mobile phones
  • Because Italians know good design when they see it?
  • You're absolutely right. The Nokia brand still has a huge amount of traction in the UK. I was just about to buy a 925 when this announcement was made, and I am now going to hold out to 'see what happens'. I want a Nokia, not a Microsoft branded product in my pocket.
    I'm actually thinking about switching to Jolla now, and that is something that would never ever have crossed my mind if Nokia was to continue in some way, shape or form.
  • +1
  • So my question is will they maintain the Nokia name on the smartphones for at least a while? i.e. more than 2 years?
    If you read this story it says they have the Nokia name available for phones (it doesn't say Smartphones).
    Dropping the Nokia name from either until Windows Phone is well established is like kicking yourself in the shins. It won't take long before you can't move forwards.
    Or more simply put it would be a stupid thing to do.
  • I can see why they let the name 'Nokia' go but hopefully they'll keep using the Lumia name. (Microsoft Lumia 1520, for example) What else will they bring, Microsoft Surface 1520? Windows 1520? Nah, Lumia sounds way better than that, even with the MS name in front of it.
  • Microsoft xPhone?
  • I somehow dont' see that happening in today's economic climate.  Finland isn't exactly a vibrant job market awash with businesses looking for talent.  If MS treats em well I see no reason for anyone to leave. 
  • Don't forget, Samsung is opening R&D centers in Finland right next to Nokia. 
  • I agree, I think the top Finnish engineers will leave in mass as soon as they can arrange positions at Sailfish.
  • And Newkia.
  • most of those (about 20K) are in the manufacturing side. It's really a much smaller group of designers and hardware engineers that they need to keep. so while most of the 32000 will not quit their factory jobs because someone bought the company the important people might, if they don't like this move and their retention bonuses aren't big enough
  • I totally agree.
    Open Source software like Open Office attempt to mimic Microsoft Office, because Microsoft Office is the benchmark. Same with the rest of Microsoft's software.
    Microsoft produces QUALITY software, and I am sure they will produce quality hardware.
    I am using my Microsoft Surface Pro with a type cover as my laptop. I don't need anything else. It is QUALITY. 
  • One Nokia designer is saying good bye im wondering why
  • Because they are probably phasing out Lumia and he was the designer.
  • If they phase out Lumia they are insane. You do not build a successful brand that sells tens of millions of phones only to switch. MS needs to learn that brands develop associations. When people hear Windows it means PC. Xbox means games. Lumia means phones. Surface means tablet. Outlook means email. Once you establish a brand it is very hard to change associations. A Windows Phone 1020 to most people's ears is a Microsoft PC phone. When people hear Xbox Music they think video game system music. You cannot build a strong brand association and then just change it without confusing people or turning them off. Use the Nokia name. Use the Lumia name. Nokia = phones. Lumia = phones. Windows does not equal phones no matter how much MS wants it to.
  • I totally agree. If they phase out the Nokia or Lumia brand, they are starting from the scratch all over again. I am fearing that MS is going to mess this up (hope not , but...).
    For exemple, when I tell people around me that I have a windows phone the first thing that they say is: do you have the blue screen,and they laugh. 
  • I am less concerned with a phase out as long as it is done smoothly and over an extended time i.e.
    Year 1 Nokia Lumia Phone
    Year 2 Nokia Surface Phone
    Year 3 Surface Phone My big concern is they just go straight from what we have to what they want without the intermediate steps. This would be a monumental error
  • +me. But since when have MSFT been listening to anything other then Windows. MSFT is a USA company and I think there hard focus on making it big will alienate the rest of the world, again, with MSFT and Windows name. Keep Lumia name for crying out loud!
  • The Nokia name is far more known (been around for a very long time) whereas the Lumia name is barely known outside of WP owners. 
  • I have to agree.  I've actually never owned a Nokia phone, but I've known the brand since the earliest days of cell phones in the US, and my impression of the brand is very high.  Lumia is a very recent brand, that has not reached a significant enough recognition level to stand on its own.  And Microsoft has not reached a high enough brand recognition level in the smartphone market either.  Without the Nokia brand supporting those two sub-brands, I feel it is likely to cause adoption issues for users, especially in the non-us markets.  
    As others have mentioned, Nokia is perhaps the strongest mobile phone brand in the world.  Android has become ubiquitous in mobile, so it has clout, but in many ways it dilutes the manufacturers brand.  Microsoft, as a mobile OS brand, does not compete worldwide on the level that the Nokia brand can.  Nokia is a brand representing the actual, tangible devices that are purchased and this can go far in closing the gap between buying an OS, and buying a device. At this stage in the game, it seems to me that the Nokia brand would bring more business than the Microsoft brand would in the foreseeable future, regardless of whether or not Microsoft can deliver the design and mfg quality of their acquisition.  If Microsoft can deliver and bring their brand up in the eyes of the world, then in the long run they have a great opportunity to win over the mobile world.  
    However, the group-think that makes a company like Microsoft think their brand SHOULD be more impressive doesn't always prove to trump the harsh reality of the here and now.  How many companies have re-branded subsidiaries to appear separate and new, in order to avoid the potential mischaracterization of their old business brand on an emerging business market.
    Branding is huge, but it also means that sometimes, a great brand in one market, doesn't always translate to another.  Microsoft wants to be the OS brand AND the device brand.  So far, in the mobile world this equation mostly doesn't exist.  Many have tried, and only Apple has succeeded. Samsung has managed to elevate their brand in devices to shrink the gap between device and OS, but still cannot compete without the OS co-branding.  Microsoft is huge and ubiquitous in many ways, but mobile is (to date) a very different model.  And the opportunity to leverage the brand recognition of one of the oldest, trusted names in the new market they are attempting to penetrate, seems to me to be something that could get them the opportunity they need to strengthen their position until they can truly migrate to their own brand.  Sometimes its not about proving your brand is the best, as much as building a successful business on its own to make it worthy of being rolled into your overall brand.
    I'm not an MBA, and I bet Microsoft has a lot of really smart business people, so its possible that we're all not aware of the full merits of their choices.  But hey, if I end up being right, maybe they'll recruit me to manage future business plans, right :-)
  • Saw this coming from a mile away. It wouldn't be a Microsoft acquistion without a branding disaster waiting in the wings. I'll give Daniel a 8/10 for his fanboy spin on this though, it was almost on level with his Xbox One and GfWL shutdown (so, where's that article about the GfWL service being shutdown next year and taking 60+ games with it unless they're patched? I thought this was a general MS site now!) spinning. MS ditching the Nokia and Lumia branding will be a disaster, there's no doubt about that. Windows Phone's worldwide marketshare was built largely on the back of the strength of Nokia's history and the Lumia line getting accolades. Now they're going to piss it all away and start all over at earning mindshare? This is either madness or hubris, maybe even a cringe inducing mix of both. The only thing that could make this even more insane would be if they make it a variation of Xbox Phone, especially in light of the decidedly negative view the Xbox One has on non-MS fan sites. That's worked out SO well for Xbox on Windows or Xbox Music, after all. How's everybody liking the transition from the Zune desktop app to Xbox Music again? I love my 920 but I'll be going back to Android for my next phone and won't be recommending friends/family to make the jump anymore. This is going to be a massive blow to Windows Phone gaining market share and I'm not getting stuck with a dead phone ecosystem for two years, let alone concerns about the actual phones themselves. I was here for the Nokia hardware, NOT Microsoft.
  • " It wouldn't be a Microsoft acquistion without a branding disaster waiting in the wings" LOL very true. Dropping the Lumia name would be bad, dropping the Nokia name would be a major body blow and a new level of stupid even for MS marketing. MS marketing has to be the consistently poorest marketing in the tech world. However I am puzzled why you would move from a 920? This acquisition will not affect you current phone other than possibly extend its life.
  • IF they end up not using the Lumia brand name, it's still just a name not the actual design of the phone
  • How is it bad? Your getting the same basic product under a new name. What part of this is bad?
  • Brand perception is everything. I wonder if Nokia wanted extra money for the use of it's brand name on Microsoft products. If they did and Microsoft scoffed at the idea, then I can see why Microsoft went in this direction. I personally don't like it. What attracted me to the platform was first the NOKIA branding.
  • True... always liked Nokia :(
  • If you read the details of the deal (it's mentioned in this article, too), Microsoft does have the rights to use "Nokia" on the phones for ten years.  That doesn't mean they will use it, but they do have the option.
  • That's for mobile phones only. (feature phones) Not smart-phones.
  • Please confirm this with a reference as it could be read either way. If they have the rights for feature phones (declining market) and not for Smartphones (growth segment) that would be almost retarded.
  • Yes, but the use of the Nokia brand is only for "dumb" phones not for smartphones, which I personally don't get.  I think is much more important continue the trend of the Nokia Lumia wave... and not suddenly change it.
  • Please confirm this with a reference as it could be read either way. If they have the rights for feature phones (declining market) and not for Smartphones (growth segment) that would be almost retarded.
  • microsoft believe they can sell smartphones, using Surface, or Windows, as the brand name or watever...
    but how will they be able to sell a feature phone, without a "Nokia" brand?  it will resmble  a new chinese company :).. so thats why... altho i agree, its still retarded :)
  • Brand recognition/perception... It's exactly why Samsung is the leader of the pack in the Android world.
  • Amem to that @xconomicron.
    I asked a few days ago my friend which phone she had. She answered: "A Galaxy".
    And I said: "Oh, Android..." and she was like: "What's an Android?"
  • The difference is that if you asked anyone in the street if they knew what a Galaxy was many would know, but many more would know Samsung. The OS is not important I agree
  • Its like BMW buying Rolls Royce and not calling their next car a Rolls Royce. Ladies and gentlemen here comes the BMW 10 series !!!!
  • +1
  • I can stomach a name change as long as Microsoft keeps letting Nokia make awesome devices with awesome cameras.
  • Cameras + Screens and Hardware :P (seriously, besides cameras, carriers should also marked how nails can be used on the Lumia line of phones).
  • You meant screws, not nails. LOL.
  • They Will continue this as well, some people who worked at camera development at Nokia told via Twitter that they would worl even harder for better cameras
  • I agree with you. The build quality is much more important to me than the name on the phone. I just now noticed the word "NOKIA" on the top of my phone.
  • I can't follow the branding issue. Nobody in the real world stumbles over Samsung Galaxy S4 with Android Ice Cream Sandwich - they call it a Galaxy S4, done. I would worry that if they drop the Nokia branding nobody will recognise the product, and the significant value in upgrading feature phone Nokia customers will be lost. Instead of offering them the brand they love they will see a broad range of brands with no particular reason to take a Lumia.
  • Everyone knew when Mazda were purchased by Ford because of the national news. Everyone knew Alaska were no longer soviets be because of medias. Same thing will happen with Nokia purchased by Microsoft.
  • Mazda was NEVER purchased by Ford. They have always been independent. Mazda and Ford just worked together (shared platforms etc.). Yed, Mazda fan here.
  • Actually, Ford owned 33.4% of Mazda through ~2009

  • Having some shares is not purchasing, of course.
  • Actually, buying shares does mean purchasing. You are buying a vesting interest in a company. And if I remember correctly, a single shareholder owning 33.3% of Mazda was enough for a full control stake in the company.
  • Yes, but "Mazda" was not replaced with "Ford" on their cars. So, no. Not the same thing.
  • Ever worked on a Mazda? FoMoCo branding all over the place.
  • No, but did you read my comment? There is no "Ford" name on the actual "Mazda" car. Nor is it on the Aston Martins.
  • Mazda used Fords platform. So its the same damn thing.
  • Not what I was saying. See above.
  • I knew what you said, my point was at the end of the day, Mazda=Ford and Microsoft made is = Nokia
  • So you are making a different point other than the top of this thread.  OKAY.
  • Lol the point i made was that everyone will know Microsoft made is same as Nokia with enough publicity
  • ^^^This
    (oh and just like everyone knows those little Mazda pickup trucks are really just Ford Rangers?)
  • ...and Isuzu's were Chevy S-10's
    ...and Suzuki's were Chevy's
    ... And Geo's were Suzuki"s
    ...and Jaguars were Ford's
    ... And Volvos were Ford's
    ... And Dodges were Mitsubishi's
    and so on, and so on...
    I actually know all the cars that were someone else's, and in the end, the company selling the car is reaping the benefit of the arrangement, owned or otherwise. So yes, if Microsoft can sell a "Nokia" product under their own name, that can compete better or fill a gap in their product line, then the masses may not know the difference. But also, if the masses consider the Mitsubishi 3000 GT a better car than the Dodge Stealth, or vice versa, then they will prefer the brand they recognise. And I suspect the brand winner in the mobile market is...
  • This.
  • But only the Microsoft phones will have the hardware designs they are used to. The asha line design looks a bit like the 520. They will be running Microsoft services. So, when the user upgrades, he is more likely to to go to a phone with a similar style and services as his previous phone. IOS would be too expensive, even with the 5c. Android phone would look and feel completely different from what he was using. Also, within a year, most people will get the message that Nokia is now Microsoft.  I'm sure Datsun owners knew that Nissan was the same company when they went to buy a new car.
  • There are a lot of people who I know who aren't even on Asha phones, whose feature phones are 5 or 6 year old Nokias which make Asha look really smart. These people are the ones who might buy Nokia out of loyalty or recognition. I think the car industry analogy doesn't fit - my worry has the name Ericsson. Remember them?
  • Well said
  • Personally I think taking away "Lumia" and "Windows Phone" is fine. but many people in other countries including myself love "Nokia" to death and taking that name away abruptly would hurt sales. a lot.
  • Correct. If this is true and MS don't or can't use the Nokia name on their smartphones I can guarantee that Google, Samsung and Apple are laughing their socks off right now. They were wondering how to deal with the growing Nokia come back and now that MS has bought them the distraction of acquisition will slow down new product announcements and ontop of that MS has handed them a worry free couple of years head start with the possibility of dropping the Nokia brand name.
    I'd be dancing in the corridors of Apple and Google right now. Classic MS.
  • Most likely I see surface phone or maybe Xphone (lame I know). I will miss Lumia though and its unclear translation.
  • Not sure they want to dilute "Surface" just by slapping it on this phone. Bears no connection the Surface tablets. 
  • I agree it wouldn't make sense to just "slap it on" a phone, but they could certainly design a new and separate Surface model phone to complement the tablets. I'd still want to see a range of other phones though.
  • I think MSFT should make a vaporMG phone and call it Surface.  Lumia would be for the polycarbonate bodied lines of phones. I'd love a VaporMG Windows phone, but it wouldn't make sense to call it Lumia. 
    Just a thought. 
  • Listen (or watch) yesterday's podcast, we discuss this very topic ;)
  • Me too! With kickstand also.
  • Windows didn't have much of a connection either (bar WP running on CE) and that didn't stop MS.
  • A full-screen OS with no windows, and limited multitasking bears more resemblance to Windows?
    Microsoft should take advantage of this opportunity and launch an entirely new name. I'm serious.
    I'm not sure I'd go with surface. If they think they can recover the brand, great. But it's got an ironclad association with failure, so it's a dangerous choice.
    But so was Windows Phone.A s I wrote below, could you imagine if they had tried to compete with Playstation by marketing "WindowsBox?"
    Is "Windows Phone" really less stupid than that?
  • To be honest, I'm one for keeping the "Lumia" name exactly how it is, but Microsoft has been known to throw away names (poor Zune).
  • It would be nice if Microsoft makes a Surface brand and a Lumia brand, what i mean is that Surface stands for metal quality phones, more industrial looking, like the Surface tablets & the Lumia brand with a polycarbonate body and all the colors....
  • Colorful and polycarbonate like the Lumia 925?
  • Nope, that device would be a Surface series then!
  • yeaah but they'll have rename it then, when it is already a lumia
  • If Microsoft does a rebranding that is anything like what this guy did that would be great.
  • +1   I hadn't seen that before so thanks for the link.
  • Hopefully they just name future devices as Lumia XXX etc with Microsoft branding on the back of the device
  • Yeah, just like apple does, the company name on the back of the device ... seems like a great design choice
  • Please continue using Lumia for at least 10 years!!
    Lumia 1020 seams a perfect name for me.
  • This is what I hope too. Cause "Lumia" is a known brand at the moment. Even people that don't like WP know that Lumia devices have good hardware and quality
  • I already suspected that Microsoft will now be aiming all the smartphones at America, just like they do with everything else.
    This is just final proof.
    Thank you, Microsoft, for removing the last European phone manufacturer from the game. It was always Siemens for me and then Nokia.
    I will need to upgrade my Lumia 900 next year, but afterwards I won't be getting a new phone for as long as possible. I do not want to get any phone created by Asian or American companies. Both have a hugely different mentality to European manufacturers.
    I support Windows 8 and RT and got a Surface. But that's partially because those technologies have always been very American.
    The Nokia takeover has ended an era.
  • From all indications the design of Microsoft phones will still come out of Europe.
  • You don´t want to support Asian or American companies, but you support Windows 8 because it is American.  You are confusing.  And how does this difference of mentality make the phones different?  By chance do people from all European countries have the same mentality?  I beg to differ.  What´s more, what are you really on about?
  • There never was a choice in terms of Operating Systems and the like.
    But phones have had two very good European manufacturers for quite a while. And I enjoyed the products of both of them.
    I hate Apple quality. I hate Samsung quality. I hate Sony's weird gimmicky phones. Etc.
    I didn't want to list all of them, but I hate each company on its own. And, coincidentally, none of them are European.
    Also, there's Microsoft's HORRIBLE track record in considering the needs of non-American customers. Look at all the TV features of the Xbox One that won't be available in most places, for example. Or the lack of gift cards for countries with low amount of credit card holders. (which has thankfully changed, though)
    It will start off decently, but in a few years the quality of Nokia phones will sharply decline in a variety of ways.
  • @SoleFenychs That's a lot of hate for alot of big companies. It seems like you're basing your dislike towards the companies on their location rather than the assessment of their products. I don't think it should matter where the company is located just that the