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Nokia Normandy's Android UI leaked in published renders

The Nokia Normandy (as it's currently known) is an interesting device from the company, which has been covered by us numerous times already. We've seen leaked renders and live photos hit the Internet, but now popular (and accurate) leakster Twitter profile, @evleaks has released the above image showing off the Nokia Normandy and its Android UI.

Rum: 7

As one can see in the above renders, the UI shares similar elements to the live photos shared over on WPDang. The device itself is believed to be low-end, and by going with the above images we can see Nokia altering the Android UI slightly – remember, this is reported to be a forked Android experience with custom features implemented.

What will be interesting to see is whether or not we'll see the Normandy hit stores with the upcoming purchase by Microsoft. We'll keep our eyes open for more details, but be sure to sound off your thoughts below.

Source: Twitter (@evleaks); thanks to everyone who tipped us!

Rich Edmonds
Senior Editor, PC Build

Rich Edmonds is Senior Editor of PC hardware at Windows Central, covering everything related to PC components and NAS. He's been involved in technology for more than a decade and knows a thing or two about the magic inside a PC chassis. You can follow him over on Twitter at @RichEdmonds.

170 Comments
  • Welp here we go...
  • Really Nokia!?!? Off with HIS head. So instead of using resources to make WP available on all 4 Major Network, you go and create this 'crap'.
    smh
  • R&D and client relations are two different divisions........ it would have not have changed anything
  • Sorry but your 4 major network mentality doesn't cut it over at Nokia. They don't really care all that much about CDMA and other US-specific issues, they're more focused on keeping their existing markets from switching over to Samsung, Huawei or others who are making cheaper phones. Nokia SHOULD be considering Normandy because it probably makes a lot of sense for them to avoid Microsoft's lack of WP development speed impacting emerging markets. Nokia doesn't want to wait for Microsoft to wake the fuck up and be ready for dual-SIM support, for example.
  • The only reason I've wanted a Nokia Device is I felt Nokia was more committed to WP than any other OM.
    But at this stage if Samsung releases a 6in WP version of the Note I am in.
  • Why would a Note with 6 inches be better with WP than an Lumia 1520?
  • Hopefully Samsung Note would not be exclusive to AT&T, and wouldn't be butchered by AT&T like the 1520 was.
  • I'm currently using the ATIV S which is basically the Galaxy S3 and I love it, the screen is gorgeous.
    So, why should I be loyal to Nokia when they have none?!
  • WTF are you talking bout❔ When they have no what❔
  • Calm down, lets talk this out ;) By making a "Android" device, its clear Nokia is not as committed to the "cause" as once thought.
    I may be getting ahead of myself since Microsoft may just squash this before it sees the light of day.
  • Why does that matter? Samsung is not exactly dedicated to WP, not even 10%. Better support Nokia who are supporting WP more than Samsung.
  • Bottom line if you want the best Nokia is it not Samsung.
  • I assume the contract between MS and Nokia has expired? So, Nokia Android as a backup phone.... +1020 for me!
  • Even if they weren't 100% committed,, they're still more committed than anyone else, so why should we think any less❔
  • Will there be a nokia android device???? Lets wait and watch what the future and nokia has in store for us.
  • Lol you just answer yourself...
  • I just thought that and then saw your response. Haha
  • Well that sums up the discussion, doesn't it?
  • Wonder if this is MS first dual booting ( android/WP) phone deal.
  • This device is a low end Android only device designed for emerging markets to replace the Asha range AFAIK.
  • I see, it was just a thought.
  • The other reason I say that is look at the face of the device, there's only the back button from the Asha range with none of the buttons from Windows Phone. I also thought that it was HTC that would be releasing dual boot phones, not Nokia?
  • Precisely.
  • It doesn't look like the Low-res Asha at all but more like a midrange phone. If they manage to get rid of the Google crapware and add maps etc. that might be quite an interesting phone to me.
  • This is running a completely custom build of Android. None of Googles apps (not even play store probably) will be included.
  • I really just don't understand why this is so hard to believe. It really shows the ignorance people have on Android and AOSP
  • Crapware? At least Google Maps never gave me directions to the wrong fucking continent.  And Gmail didn't butcher my emails, and Google Search actually works in my language, and Chrome let me open more than 6 tabs, and Drive gave me more editing options than Office... Do I have to go on? I have a Windows Phone right now, and it is a great device, but that doesn't mean that Google is crapware. 
  • google translate< microsoft translate
  • Microsoft has a translate service?
  • Yeah its not featured much but is a good translate option in SpanishDict.com for whole sentences.
  • Forked Android 1520 and I'll be there.
  • Unlikely to happen as this one is a low end Android device.
  • Why don't you just get a Note 3 since you're such an Android fan?
  • Are you really comparing Nokia's quality to Samsung? I mean...you meant to attack the guy for liking Android and you just ended up making a huge compliment to Samsung by saying their Note 3 can be placed on the level of the Nokia L1520. Which it isnt' (hardware wise).
    That attack kind'a backfired my friend.
  • Actually I follow Nokia. Its the reason I like WP so STFU and think before bitching.
  • Uh never
  • All I got to say is that there's the stupidest people in comment section's online.. You find some real dumb, I mean ignorant, folks...
  • The internet exposes just how ignorant the human population is to most things. Stay in school kids and pay attention.
  • That escalated...
  • Lol❕
  • Yes, ignorant and mean-spirited spells bad news.
  • I seriously hope this wasn't geared towards me. I would go into a spat of how beneficial it would be for Nokia to have a forked Android the way Amazon has and put their hardware back in their control by developing the software to better fit their hardware. I could even go into how it be nice that they don't have to wait for snail paced MS to move forward and stop falling behind in their OS while the world jack rabbit pass them. But I realize that there's nothing but WP nut jobs that dont realize that Nokia wasn't even around and held the way they were y'all would be here holding your d* in your hand. So what if it was Android, hell it could had been Meego. I like WP. Its my goto. But Nokia is the defacto and if they had forked Android and it put the power back in their hand damn right I'd go that route. How that's for. Dumb, ignorant folks. Ironic calling people ignorant when they don't even read pass the cover page.
  • NOBODY WAS TRYING TO ATTACK YOU.
  • And, you're still ignorant,, because you're speaking about the past still.. You just typed all that and its the same old argument, and while true, or false, or whatever it is,, it isn't reality.. You're not being profound at all, you're just repeating old news.. The reality of the situation is what's going on between Microkia right now in REAL LIFE, not would've, could've, should've. What's the point of your comment❔ What's it going to help moving forward❔.. What place does it have❔..
    Like I said above ⬆⬆⬆⬆⬆⬆⬆
  • What the hell are you talking about. Y'all really ass hurt that Nokia has played with an android built device. First off I don't give a shit that Nokia is bought out by MS. As long as Nokia quality is there and still designed and developed by Nokia engineers I'll continue to support MS. How the hell am I speaking about the past when we looking at something that is going on RIGHT NOW. Forked Android has nothing to do with Google. Oh I guess I'm an idiot cause I said I wouldn't mind Nokia having control over its own hardware. So lets talk about right now. Right now Nokia is the only reason MS is still breathing life. Right now MS had to obtain the Asha line and Nokia used the forked Android as a leverage point to have MS buy the Asha line as well. Right now Nokia still saw it fit to develop behind WP. Lot of faith in that. The point is you sit up and make assumption and have no idea where my mind frame is with MS. I mean you sit up here and talk about should of bs like I'm ignorant and don't realize what's going on. I'm glad the two company making progress. Its obvious they both needed each other. Does that change anything I said? No. This deal is only good for two years bright boy since we moving forward. Nokia will have they device back in their hand and you better hope more OEMs are on board by then. That's my point. Go cry out some piss.
  • Once again I could care less about all that.. You just don't get it, do you❔.... What's wrong with you boy❔
  • Check this out:
    http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-10/21/googles-iron-grip-on-android This might answer most of your questions :-)
  • Out of the woodwork ;)
  • TBH it doesn't look like Android. It looks more like an Asha device which is what I guess they are going for, it makes sense considering this is supposed to be replacing the S40 hybrid OS they currently use on the Asha range.
  • Not only the hardware, but the interface itself looks a lot similar to current Asha... just look at the lock screen with notifications. Call it forked or spooned, what we are looking at is the Asha ver.2. Its with higher resolution, different aspect ratio, more refined. 13 days and I'm already looking at my Asha 502 replacement :P
  • I call for spooned ! Haha joking. Let's see what Nokia will bring out in 2014 ;)
  • This is never going to happen, Microsoft now owns the devices division of Nokia and its been canned. This is why they are leaking the, "what we would have tried" images now. As another commented said, it wouldn't have made a difference anyway. Nokia with the exception of its Asha line was unheard of in America since bag & button phones ten years ago until they started producing the WP Lumia line. And no, Elop didn't cause Nokia to fall, the iPhone did! This coming from someone who loves Nokia...currently have 2 - 920's, 1 - 822. I also owned Nokia bag phones, etc year ago, so don't try to sell me these ridiculous notions that Elop killed the company.
  • Actually its not Microsofts yet.. NOT untill ending of First quater 2014
  • What does that matter❔ That's way besides the point.. Who cares❕
  • Will it be called Asha 1045 or Lumia 1045? ... The name is the time, right?
  • It's likely to be Asha as Lumia is used for their Windows Phones, for the number you might be right.
  • What is the "rum'o'meter" measuring? Are you saying that there's a good chance that this exists, or a good chance that it will be released?
  • Exists... the accuracy of the leak itself.
  • Ugly
  • So, by extension the Lumia must also be ugly if you're going on the design of the phone as it has a similar design to the Lumia?
  • I'm sure its ugly because of Android
  • If we take the time in consideration (10:45) it would lead us to think it wasn't a low end device. However, I think this time, the clock doesn't reveal anything special as I think this is a low end device too. However...since the deal with Microsoft isn't closed yet, MWC is coming up and Nokia has 2 spaces there, I'm curious to see if it will make it to MWC. I'm getting this Nokia Android, forked or not. I'm dying to see how Nokia tweaks Android to fit their whims and although I'm sure it won't resemble what Nokia would have done if Eflop hadn't infiltrated and Nokia had gone Android back then, it will still be interesting to see how Nokia handles Google-Free Android. And what the future could hold for Nokia, should they in 2016 return to phones through Jolla (who's already outselling the iPhones 5S and 5c in the Finnish carrier that's selling them)
    (And I also want to contribute to sales of Nokia's Android just to give Eflop and the idiots who didn't picked Android a slap in the face. Perhaps then they wake up. Or not. Lets see.)
  • The article states this is a low end Android device. I think the interface looks pretty good considering it's Android and I believe this will replace the aging S40 hybrid OS they use on the Asha devices. I also think that the 1045 would be the number for it as I suspect this will be the high end of the Asha range.
  • I wrote about the high/low range because of the number on the clock. Nothing else. As much as I would love to see a high end Nokia Android before they lose the D&S division, I don't believe it will happen. Still...I very much doubt Nokia will jump Asha (assuming this will be an Asha device) to the 1xxx category. Specially making it  a 1045, it can lead consumers to think it's a successor or superior do the 1020. You can say "but one is Asha and the other is Lumia". Yeah. Except the common consumer doesn't really go by the "Asha" or "Lumia" branding. They go by the "I want a Nokia. Lets see the numbers". Nokia has used this system for decades, consumers are now used to it and know that the higher the number goes, the better the phone normally is.
    I see no reason why Nokia would mess up things even more than they did within the Lumia line, by bumping Asha to the 1xxx level.
  • But what does that have to do with Android? has nothing Androbug there.
  • Eflop? I'm sorry, Nokia would have already died with or without Elop. In alot of ways, Elop has helped Nokia, in terms of getting US recognition, being more clear on their mobile OS choice, etc. It just wasn't enough to turn the Titanic around. Sorry. Was Elop a Trojan horse planted by Microsoft? Maybe. But not to run Nokia to the ground, to increase Windows Phone's adoption. Be thankful that Microsoft is keeping the company as in tact as possible before they would otherwise file for bankruptcy and close shop.
  • I think it might be the other way.. IF nokia had gone Andriod, I think windows phone would have been history. Nokia might have struggled a little bit but i am sure it would have been supported by Google and Samung and Nokia would have be wying for top honors. Anyway it is also done now.. lets see what happens in 2016.. It will be interesting. I am sure they are cooking something for 2016.
  • Supported by Samsung? Hwut
  • That looks... Attractive lol
  • For a low end device, I agree.
  • Ugh, the sight of android on Nokia hardware annoys me lol. Don't ruin pretty hardware with ugly software haha
  • Beat dead horse much?
  • Just making sure it is dead.
  • I'm wondering if MS is actually ok with this because it will introduce many to Nokia's quality hardware build, even with MS owning it, and by keeping Android in low end devices, when users need a high end device, they stick with Nokia, drop Android and move to Windows Phone. ? Is that the plan here?
  • I think this Nokia Android stuff is going nowhere.  It made sense for Nokia to pursue, and I think we'll continue to see updates on it only because they need to continue acting like an independent company.  Until the buyout is fully approved and finalized they can't appear to be operating as a Microsoft subsidiary.  Once that deal is done I expect MS will closely scrutinize all of the R&D, use some pieces they find interesting and then kill it- at least as a short-term product initiative.     
    ...by keeping Android in low end devices, when users need a high end device, they stick with Nokia, drop Android and move to Windows Phone. ? Is that the plan here?
    I'm not sure that makes sense.  The low end devices (520/521) are where Windows Phone is actually doing well.  Wouldn't a low-end Android device with the same build quality/value as a Lumia 520 be a huge threat to Windows Phone adoption?  And I really doubt that users would choose to move from a low-end Android device to a high-end Windows Phone just to stick with Nokia hardware- especially since that high-end hardware will not technically be a "Nokia" device but rather a "Microsoft" device (it is very possible that the Nokia brand equity does not fully transfer to Microsoft). On a larger level, Microsoft continuing to pursue an Android device would just undermine WP and accelerate adoption of a competing platform that is now looking to challenge them in the laptop/desktop world.    
  • The low end devices (520/521) are where Windows Phone is actually doing well.  Wouldn't a low-end Android device with the same build quality/value as a Lumia 520 be a huge threat to Windows Phone adoption?     - That's a good point. It would be a threat. However, let us not forget this isn't full-Android. By using forked Android, it's not likely that Nokia will be allowed to promote the phones as "Android" phones. If they can't do that, then the threat is not as big as it would be if Nokia presented the phone as a full Android phone.   "And I really doubt that users would choose to move from a low-end Android device to a high-end Windows Phone just to stick with Nokia hardware- especially since that high-end hardware will not technically be a "Nokia" device but rather a "Microsoft" device (it is very possible that the Nokia brand equity does not fully transfer to Microsoft)."   People will follow the brands they trust. If when moving from a feature Nokia they don't find a Nokia smartphone, they'll most likely search somewhere else. That's not to say people won't opt for a Microsoft-phone. But Microsoft phones will be competing for user attention on the same level as Sony, HTC, Samsung, Apple, LG etc.
    The user loyalty towards Nokia will not the transfered to Microsoft, I'm sure of that. Microsoft will have to work very very very hard to get brand quality recognition on hardware by themselves. Buying Nokia's employees will mean nothing to the consumers. Specially because Nokia will still be around and Microsoft phones will not the Nokia-branded. Not to mention Nokia will then be able to license many of the patents that they kept exclusive to their phones until now (think "PureView") to other OEMs. As Sam Sabri said once in a podcast "It will be a tought sell" for Microsoft. Their move was stupid. If they wanted to keep the momentum and the loyalty, they should have bought Nokia entirely and turn Nokia into their mobile arm. Much like Google did with Motorola Mobile.
  • I wouldn't think so, given that its comparable to the low end 520 - Microsoft would want to be pushing their own OS
  • Until the deal closes, Microsoft can't say anything about this. Once it does...who knows. They ultimately want to put an end to feature phones. That's why they got the Asha brand. What OS will they put on Asha, that's a good question. Symbian's support ends in 2016. Microsoft only has one mobile OS - WP - available. They most certainly will not be making another. Given how slow the development of WP is, adding another OS to the plate would be a nightmare.
    So forked Android may actually be a possibility for Microsoft to use for feature phones. Though that would be ironical given their childish war with Google.
    As for the hardware quality...Microsoft will most likely screw it up to cut costs. They're not Nokia. Don't expect everything to remain the same as it has been. Nokia is Nokia, Microsoft is Microsoft. The people who work for Nokia can start working for Microsoft. But that doesn't mean the quality will be the same. Expect Microsoft phones to be more in line with Surface.
  • The deal has been approve, all parties have agreed and signed off period, even China, so I don't see why everyone in here are speaking about this as if it will be released because its not.......Everyone here can take that to the bank!!
  • Microsoft is the company with enough capital to consistently build xboxes at a loss, so I don't know why you're so sure they'd skimp quality to cut costs.
  • Android is shitty and does not deserve to be residing in a Nokia. Period.
  • [citation needed]
  • no thanks i have been running away from android and im not looking forward for this phone even when its from Nokia, to me Nokia represent and only represent WINDOWSPHONE   .
  • Why Nokia why?
  • Because they didn't have full faith in Windows Phone. May be Microsoft will be able to build $40 USD phones for emerging markets when the deal finally goes through. They won't have to worry about licensing fees so I don't see why they couldn't.
  • Something has to pay the bills if the deal doesn't go through.
  • MS owned Nokia so that's why they doing that. MS getting money all around tha board
  • Android??? but what does that have to do with Android? has nothing Androbug there. this would be a terror...
  • with 480x854 resolution It cant be low end. Current ashas have 240x320, so It cant be s40replacement. It rather Lumia 520 android verion.
  • Kill this thing with fire, a lot of it.
  • Said the Holy Inquisition.....
  • Ewww it looks disgusting. Windows phone ftw. Im very eager to see what ms has in mind in the next few years
  • Dual SIM phone! Wouldn't be bad btw. Low end and therefore laggy Android, and high end and super smooth WP! :D
  • I've been thinking of this, Being frank I enjoy my WP8 L925 T-MO US. I do have much vested in the Windows platform runing  Win8.1 on three devices along with two WP8 devices. However in the case of WP i do get frustrated somewhat and that frustration is split between Microsoft slow updates "Notifications" and Nokia's exclusive deals. If down the road Nokia came back with a high end Android that wasn't exclusive I could very well make the move. Also as a Nokia stock holder I'm thinking hummmmm.....
  • As a stock holder, you should know the deal is done. I hope this blatant ignoring strategy is not what you use when deciding when to buy, sell, or trade stocks. If so, good luck!
  • Excuse me the deal is not officially done yet look at the dates. Care to compare portfolio's
  • I don't want this to happen as android is to big for its boots !!!!!!!!! Don't do it Nokia
  • No thanks.
  • If this device was launched until later, and popular apps like Flipboard, Path, BBM etc is not yet available in WP8, I'll sell my Lumia 520, and buy this phone. Or maybe Moto G. KitKat will be better in low-memory device.
  • yeah, wait for a miracle... and then kitkat will run even smoother than wp lol :p
  • Kitkat DOES run smoother than WP. I have a L520 and the Moto G.
  • oh yeah, but it needs 2 extra cores :p
  • And extra RAMs :p
  • Looks like an Asha phone.
  • and the lockscreen looks way too similar to the windows phone lockscreen with some enhancement on notifications. I really dont think these are android phones at all,
  • Finally someone talking with sense! Thanks
  • ASHA OS 1.1   android is shit
  • What is wrong with Android? It is open, many people value that.
  • The phone looks nice don't really care for the software though. It will be interesting if it does come to market if it does it will just give android fan boy another thing to brag about no thank you.
  • Nokia should troll the world by releasing an Android phone with a Symbian Belle FP2 UI....simply called.....Nokia Symbian...like HTC Sense, Samsung TouchWiz.... I see people falling over complaining and saying "Ahhhhhh it's SYMBIAN!!!!!!!" No, it's beggin strips...er Android.
  • Imagine this thing outselling the 520 ! Not that I wish for that.
  • I'm not gonna believe this picture.. :P
  • The only button is the back button. :P
  • Nah! Not a good idea nokia! You are actually destroying all the Windows phone environment youve built up...
  • So.. I could buy this phone. In a couple of months I'll have a problem and then, who will fix it? Old Nokia? MS (must be a joke) or ... Wait, google? maybe then, my only option is trashing it :p
  • At least within Europe, Nokia is legally bound to assist your phone within the 2 years legal warranty. So if you buy a phone, it comes with a 2 years warranty that you can use to force Nokia to fix any problem covered by that warranty. Even if they no longer have a D&S division.
    Now, WHO will do the technical work, that's another story. Nokia will either keep using the contracted agents they now use (yes, your Nokia phone doesn't go to the factory for small repairs. It's send to a speciallized company often in your own country for fixing) or pass on the legal burden to Microsoft and Microsoft will then be bound to that warranty and your device will be probably send to the Netherlands for repair or exchange like the Surfaces. Google has nothing to do with this. Warranties are responsability of the OEM. Google will only be responsible for it if you buy a Motorola.
      If you live outside Europe, inform yourself about the conditions of purchase under which you bought the phone (those small letters in the contracts and boxes)
  • I'm also from Portugal :p I know someone have to take responsability but what I mean is that it'll be a little challenging, at least... MS whould try to exchange it for a lumia for sure, or Nokia would have to manunfacter some more to exchange/replace broken ones... Either way, I'm not gonna be a part of that war :p
  • Well, challenging or not, it's Nokia's problem not ours =P Still, only if the entire device would need replacement would they exchange. And if the device no longer exists, they'll have to replace it for one of equal or greater value. In either case, it's fine.
    I wouldn't accept exchanging a Nokia for a Microsoft-phone though...and that could arise some extra problems. But that's me, who already got burned with Surface products and we all know how much Microsoft Portugal non-existing support sucks =P
  • Nokia hardware running Android, NICE!!
  • I don't like it.
  • Remember that these are giant businesses who want to stay profitable in an uncertain world. It's almost inconceivable that even one contingency plan wouldn't include something like this. We don't know what their intentions are. The purchase isn't final--that could play into it.
    I know that my company which seems to be in a fairly stable state has many plans that they don't expect to implement. A few would surely be pretty scary to me if I knew what they were.
    Bottom line: maybe, maybe not.
  • I like the new design. Even more then WP
  • Pull yourself together, mate ;)
  • One thing is for shure: you're NOT gay! :p
  • Ashima and Shaini have nice smiles...just sayin' ;)
  • Why is it using the windows start screen when locked and font?
  • Ashima looks kinda cute.
  • I like it. The nicest Android fork I've ever seen.
  • What's with the xbox button in the skype photo?
  • It's along the bottom of the Skype for Android sign in screen. Just saying "one  Microsoft account for everything" with pictures, essentially.
  • Maybe since the Nokia name will be dropped by Microsoft, the Nokia name will run away to live with its step grandparents and start a new life as an android device.... Hmmmm good movie plot.
    If Microsoft drops the Nokia name will the brand name disappear forever ? Or is the name still owned by the company? If it is then the movie plot may work for Nokia
  • It is not that MS wants to drop Nokia name, it cannot use it on upper end, Lumia, devices.
  • Nokia will still exist. And so the Nokia name will be kept by, well, Nokia. Microsoft did NOT buy Nokia. That's something that was very poorly explained in the media. Microsoft just bought the people that worked for Nokia's D&S division. It's like if Manchester United went to Real Madrid and bought their players. Real Madrid would still exist, only its players moved. Microsoft is not allowed to use Nokia's name on smartphones. They are allowed to use it on feature phones, though, if they so chose to do because Microsoft is paying a LICENSE to use the name. I don't see why would they do that apart from selling as using Nokia's name on feature phones but not on smartphones will not ensure people who buy Microsoft feature phones will buy their smartphones too at all. So basically, your "movie plot" isn't that much of a plot. It's a very real possiblility. Nokia can return to smartphones in 2016 with Android or Sailfish or Ubuntu or Tizen or whatever they want to, if they so wish. And those phones will be produced by Nokia and branded with the "Nokia" brand.
  • Nokia ex-workers can create a new company: Newkia, and sell whatever they want. Then, in 2016 Nokia buys them for a penny and it's back again on stage :)
  • The UI is utterly N8 style...must be the succeeding Gangnam style then lol
  • Except for it's, well... ugly (I don't like the interface, anyway, it's hard to judge with only 2 screenshots of it) interface, this phone won't happen. If they want to start a cheap series of mobiles, they already have a solution: Windows Phone. If Microsoft takes over, they can have free licenses (like any other OEM) and produce a Lumia 420 (or something) that's even cheaper then the current Lumia 52x.
  • As there were some leaked images of WP 8.1 called "Blue", it didn't have any button as they say it supports on-screen buttons, so maybe this will be running "Blue". All said here is just a speculation and we can't know a thing about this.
  • @evleaks has been really accurate in the past and they say "Android" here, but when I actually looked at the picture the screens do seem to bear some WP traits... Hmmmm.