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AT&T responds to BBB complaint, Lumia 830 likely to never get Lumia Denim update

The Lumia Denim update has come and gone for many Windows Phone owners. Announced back at IFA in September 2014, the update continued to roll out to devices through early spring. One phone, however, missed the update, and it was the Lumia 830 for AT&T. It is ironic, if only because Denim was co-announced with the Lumia 830 at IFA yet it was the AT&T Lumia 1520 that managed to snag the update instead.

Fast forward to July 2015 and at this point it is a safe bet that the AT&T Lumia 830 will not see Lumia Denim. A reader of the site, Noah M., filed a complaint against AT&T with the Better Business Bureau (BBB) to express his frustration.

AT&T finally responded, and although they could not answer why the Lumia 830 was skipped for Lumia Denim, they did note that it would not be getting the update. From their BBB response letter, AT&T said this:

"I found that the software update was released however was only available for the Nokia 1520. At this time, the software he is seeking will not be available for the Nokia 830."

Of course, if this were February this would be bigger news. However, being it is July 31, it comes less than a shock. Nonetheless, it is still a big blow to what is otherwise a nice phone. Although AT&T will not say it, tepid sales of the Lumia 830 are likely the reason for the situation.

It is quite a shame to see this happen to the Lumia 830, and the Denim Update would have delivered the Lumia Camera 5.0 update with Rich Capture and enhanced camera functions. It is also unlike AT&T, who in the past have been one of the best supporters of Windows Phone, including delivering all updates.

Regardless, in 2015, we can see that carriers can still be an impediment to consumer satisfaction. Here is hoping for a better Windows Insider experience in the future.

Thanks, Noah, for the info!

Daniel Rubino is the Executive Editor of Windows Central, head reviewer, podcast co-host, and analyst. He has been covering Microsoft here since 2007, back when this site was called WMExperts (and later Windows Phone Central). His interests include Windows, Microsoft Surface, laptops, next-gen computing, and arguing with people on the internet.

378 Comments
  • Why does the United States have phones with carrier logos? Is it something with the phones only supporting their bands? If you buy a phone from a carrier here, it's the international version with a discounted price, since you're also buying a subscription from them that you have to pay at least 6 months. I don't understand why AT&T has anything to do with updating the phone. Can someone explain?  
  • Basically, carriers in the USA have too much power and can abuse customers and partners. #freedom
  • and then nobody is forcing you to get a carrier phone and play their rules, you could easily buy an unlocked and unbranded phone. but people love getting cheaper stuff but then complain when companies like AT&T aren't interested on releasing an update for a EOL phone.
  • I try to always get a non-branded phone. You really do save more money in the long run by being able to have a no contract plan. I think the cheapest no contract vs contract on ATT is like $20/month over the course of 2 years is $480. Plus what is usually a $200 cost for what ever phone you want. $680 will get you a damn nice phone, and you can re-sell it after to buy your next one at a higher price than a branded phone.
  • Nope, still waiting for my unbranded 830 to get the update. 000-22
  • How is that in any way relevant to what I said? If your unbranded 830 is on ATT, that is why it hasn't got the update, not because it's branded or unbranded.
  • Unbranded is unbranded.  The updates the device receives are not controlled by the carrier network it is on, only phones sold by the carrier specifically will get the updates they push.
  • And the unbranded and unlocked versions most likely would have even less of a chance of being updated.. am I right?
  • No, you are not right.  They would get updates direct from the manufacturer.
  • So you're saying that is one bought a phone that was unbranded and unlocked, Microsoft would directly update them (in this case, let's use the 830 as an example).  Wow, I thought Microsoft was only pushing those firmware updates via the Insiders Program as a work around, I didn't realize they might do this for their unlocked phones.  Besides, US law now requires that a carrier unlock a phone if a customer desires so (provided they have met their contractual obligations/ buy out).  How would you get updates in this scenario?  This seems more of a just an archaic quality control measure in a time when it was necessary to maintain such control AND as a way to force people to buy more new phones rather than let customers get maximum use out of their devices.  I hope Microsoft offers a variant of the Insiders program that offers firmware updates, etc, with whatever disclaimers are appropriate since it is clear that AT&T and others just aren't up the the task (is this really unique to Windows Phones? I'm seriously asking).  As for contract vs no-contract, pick your poison.  Some people want to pay cash, some (and I would venture to say MOST) don't.  You either are using subsidies (old style), credit cards, or no-contact-but-finance-phone-cost plans (i.e. NEXT, etc).  It isn't helpful to slam or criticize people who expect their devices be supported just for the method in which they chose to finance their purchase. In the end, the device will be paid off and in the end people want support.  *I* personally feel people shouldn't expect support because these vendors are already so $hitty at providing it.  It's easy for me to be so forgiving, though, as I'm one of those that buys devices for fun and doesn't actually *need* anything too fancy - check work email and some internet, done; but I'll use the hell out of the advanced features if I can get them.
  • Unlocked will allow any sim to be used in a phone Unbranded will allow updates from phone maker
  • Still waiting for Denim/8.1.2 on my unbranded Lumia 1320 though.
  • I think the world forgot about our 1320's. I moved on to a 640XL - miss the camera button though.
  • Same here I had a 1020 got the 640XL miss the camera button big time.
  • Nope, carrier branded phones are at the mercy of the carrier you bought it from. SIM free devices are at the mercy of the manufacturer which generally means that you get updates long before ANY carrier devices.
  • Of course not. Non-carrier phones often receive the updates as soon as they're available in the countries they're sold.
  • In a different universe maybe. In this one, unbranded phones get the most love from the manufacturer.
  • AT&T got Denim to the 1520 weeks before Microsoft delivered it direct to my unbranded CV 1520. The belief that unbranded phones get all updates, or updates sooner is a myth.
  • Sort of.  It depends on which country/region your phone is.  Differennt regions have different cell systems (CDMA/GSM etc).  My HK (hong kong) 1520 took longer for phones in several European countries to get denim, but still 6 months sooner than carrier locked ones in my country. If you bought your 1520 from a country whos regulators demand more testing then you're gonna get any updates later than from countriews that just let the manufacturers update blast through whenever they are ready.  You're still far more likely to get updates in a timely manner if your handset is unlocked, oh, and not an android.  If your android device is more than 6 months old you might as well pray for updates to happen because the handset makers make so little $ on the devices they aren't going to spend any time making sure updates don't screw with their universally awful skins and UI.  
  • But it's not cheap over the life of the contract.
  • Yes they are. I challenge you to find an unlocked non-carrier branded Windows Phone that works on Verizon. Verizon even lies and says their Windows Phones are unlocked, they aren't. They can use GSM bands, but Verizon severely cripples the device functionality, and Nokia and Microsoft and HTC will not supply users with a non branded ROM to rid us of Verizon's OS tampering.
  • There is no such thing as a unlocked CDMA device for which Verizon and Sprint's authorization networks are at this time.
  • The Nexus 5 D820 is indeed an unlocked CDMA and GSM device that can work on Sprint, AT&T and TMobile with LTE on all three networks. It does not work on Verizon.
  • It has both CDMA and GSM radios?  I wasn't aware there was a chipset that could handle the crappy old CDMA alongside the GSM stuff.  Why ANY network would stick to CDMA baffles the mind.  And getting an unlocked CDMA phone is a very different proposition than unlocked GSM. Especially as the carriers have muich greater control over the handsets unlike GSM where you just switch sims.
  • Take a look at the US west of the Mississippi River. Bunches of nothing except on the west coast, with pockets and bands of population scattered throughout. CDMA using low frequency bands travels further and needs less towers per square mile. That's why.
  • Just stop. The stupid here just hurts to look at.  Almost every phone Verizon sells supports CDMA and GSM.  They have for years now.  Verizon doesn't really even use CDMA anymore except around their outdated towers.  They carry voice and data both over LTE now.  You can go into the settings and turn CDMA completely off and as long as you have an LTE signal, you'll still get both voice and data.  And yes, their phones are unlocked.  However, Verizon orders their phones with chips particular to their LTE band so, no, you're not going to get LTE on another network with a Verizon phone or vice versa.  iPhone might be an exception.  Verizon doesn't hardly use GSM either.  It's only on their phones so their customers can take their devices out of the country.  Please STFU with the CDMA crap already.  You're talking out of your ass from almost ten years ago.  It's time to update your bullshit.        
  • You mean other than the iPhone, Nexus 6, Moto X, etc.
  • And that is just one of the big reasons my money no longer goes to Verizon, nor am I beholden to their strong-arm tactics.
  • The reality is that Verizon never tampered with the OS.  All the Carrier options are provided by Microsoft, and are paid for by Verizon.  This is why a variant ROM does not exist.
  • Not that easy to go buy an unlocked phone.... I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense, I buy unlocked/unbranded phones only. It is easy for you and I to go buy an unlocked/unbranded phone.... and possibly many others who follow tech news sites like this one.... But for the big majority (the lay person if you will!), it is not easy. A cell phone company's store is on every other block. Their sales people are the most aggressive and trained to sell phones, with contract. The majority do not even know they can buy a phone anywhere other  than a carrier store. I have my own family, co-workers, friends, etc who I try to help out when ever I can, but it is a same situation every 2 years.... BIG Majority dont have even the slightest of clues about the whole game of carrier locked phones, manufacturer gimmicks, OEM back door contracts with carriers, etc This is where the problem is my friend. In the grand scheme of things, us tech savvy people are a very tiny number. And that is a fact.
  • I just find this to be a bit of defeatest attitude. I mean, I understand what your saying. But exactly how hard is it for someone to research buying their phone much like they would research buying a gaming console or a stove or refrigerator? Again, I get the strong arm marketing tactics of the carriers. 
  • Its EASY to buy an unlocked phone (unless its a CDMA variety).  You see, there is this thing called ebay, and this 'ebay' can show and facilitate sales of non-locked and logo'd very easily. I'm always amazed that most people continue to buy locked phones and sometimes even defend the locked'ness because the carriers must somehow have better phones than if you bought the same handset elsewhere. Like the AT&T Lumia 1520.  It has 1/2 the storage (16 instead of 32Gb) and no Qi wireless charging than the non-AT&T version, but people/idiots still bought the AT&T locked and branded one. I buy unlocked:  #1 for the availability of updates.  #2 because I HATE having carrier logos branding my phone's startup, front and back of the casing.  #3 to stick it to the effing carriers because they are all mongrels.
  • Or better yet, buy a locked AT&T Lumia 1520.  Add Qi charging for $8, unlock for $1, unlock band 4, and pop in an SD card.  Just saved at least $75
  • Adding Qi charging to an AT&T 1520 is impossible without the skills, tools, and parts that 99.999999% of prospective owners lack. I have no idea why you think that process is $8. You're overpaying for your unlock which is free. Unlocking band 4 requires you look up procedure. Just as with Android, MANY apps cannot be installed on microsdxc. Show another phone model with a variant that has the aforementioned features for $75 additional. You cannot.
  • That's a really stupid argument. Just because someone buys something 'subsidized' does in no way take away from their ability to complain when companies like ATT aren't interested [in] releasing an update for [an] EOL phone. Your argument is that same bs that people use to blame the victim in other situations.
  • I think its a different situation where someone willingly binds themselves in a contract with an entity that is known to be shady and manipulative towards its customers than say a situation where a person is victimized and are not to blame for it. I mean, I know people who bitch and complain constantly about their *insert carrier* bill, only to turn around and reup for another 2 years just to get the latest and greatest at a "cheap price." Exactly who does the fault lie with in that case? Not to absolve ATT from their BS. Its why I bolted the minute my last contract was up and won't ever tie myself to a carrier again. 
  • Okay I understand this. But off topic to the point. Also, the fault still lies with the company supplying the phone. Why supply the phone in the first place if they aren't even going to support it? I have an international 830, so I don't deal with ATT. Whatever. If I want att service because it is the best in any area.. Or whatever reason I have. (Doesn't matter to anyone) Am I at fault because they may not support the phone THAT I WANT? Also, who else supplies that Lumia 830 that I WANT? The customer is not at fault for the choices that the service makes.
  • AT&T wouldn't hesistate to push the update if they weren't being charged money.
    EDIT:  The update that does not exist
  • That is actually NOT the case, particularly depending on your carrier. For instance, you can't buy an "international" version and put it on Verizon's network.
  • Unless you get the new Moto X, iPhone or Nexus 6. I am sure there are other options out there too.
  • Not exactly, many of the phones are only available through the carriers. It's not about discounts anymore because those old subsidies no longer exist. The problem is that due to the carriers all having different radio bands; the average customer is not going to sift through the spec data to find what frequencies are supported and compare those to the ones their carrier uses.
  • This is rather funny as that is exactly what I did. But you are right, regular customers are not going to do that even though the information is sitting there available for anyone to see.
  • They're never cheaper through the carrier, they almost always cost more unless you buy a device within a month of its launch. Regardless, just flash the phone with an international firmaware and then update to Denim.  There's guides all over the internet on how to do it, and it is as easy as using Windows Phone Recovery Tool, but you use Nokia Care Suite instead.
  • I would argue that you cannot buy an unlockd and unbranded phone easily. You have to be aware of their existance and you have to do it over the internet. There is no shop selling these. Buying off the internet, quite often you are buying international versions which require some investigation on compatibility. Go to Expansys (even US) and see if you find any phone that says works on T-Mobile, and/or AT&T LTE bands. They don't. They give you bands and frequencies, and it is up to you to try and find what the carriers are using. You can easily end up with a phone that does txt and voice on your network, but only 3G data.  These are challenges the average american hasn't had to deal with. You go to a carrier store, you get a device, it works....on that carrier. It has only been recently that devices with enough rasdios to cover multiple carriers have been readily available, but they certainly have not been broadly marketed, so their existance isn't even well known. BTW, not defending this, just saying they way things work over here is steeped in tradition, and there are those (the carriers) that benefit from it not changing.
  • People walk into Apple stores every day and purchase unlocked iPhones. You wrote a big ol' post that was wrong. 
  • Not as easy as you might think. Take the 930/Icon for example, if you are on ATT/T-Mobile in the US it was impossible to get a LTE enabled version, locked or unlocked.
  • It's purely out of convenience. Overall people spend more because of the overpriced plans on contact.
  • Well in this case it is not cheaper if he has to buy a new phone to get windows 10.
  • Why are the carriers involved in OS updates in the first place? That's fked up.
  • EOL??? It came out under a year ago...
  • We have the same problem in Canada.
  • How much does it cost to unlock a phone in the US? Generally, I mean
  • AT&T at the moment is either free or under $1.  Not an issue
  • It's not that at all. It's that somewhere along the line, they got the dumb idea on their heads that the best way to compete is with phones locked to carriers. In reality, they'd have more success luring subscribers away if those people could easily bring whatever devices they already own. They'll figure it out eventually.
  • Carriers in the US aren't dumb pipes yet. Elsewhere the consumer has the greater power and say. This due to fact people in the US have become too used to getting subsided phones as opposed to the rest of the world; where pretty much everyone buys unlocked.
  • Country Variants are mostly or even only being sold outside of carriers and that's definitely not a US only thing.
  • It's called corruption bud. Carrier specific hardware is just a way to make switching carriers more difficult on the customer by forcing them to incur the cost of new hardware at the same time. The telecommunications companies in the united States have been this way almost since inception. Over the course of their history, At&t especially, have endeavored to utilize unfair and fraudulent business practices to ensnare customers into a one sided arrangement that favors the provider over the consumer. Examples of this are the breaking up of At&t into the so called "baby bells", confusing and or hidden charges on bills (which they were first penalized for on land lines then later again for cellular lines) and of course the most recent throttling so called unlimited data plans. The legal history of the us coms market is out on the web, you should look it up if you ever get the chance.
  • All those features should be available with Windows 10 mobile, right?
  • This is Deja vu. Anyone remember the 820?
  • Yep.  Still using mine.  An orphan in almost every possible sense of the word, but still a good phone.  We'll see what happens when WP10 is released...
  • Many non-US folks don't understand that Americans choose subsidized phones because there is zero difference between monthly rates versus non-subsidized phones. So why pay two or three times more for the same phone?
  • Because with non subsidised phones you are pretty much gauranteed to get updates and you aren't tied into using a phone that you may not like for 2 years. Yes you pay more initially but over the life of the contract it pays for itself. If I chose to go from the 930 I'm using to a Google Nexus device then I can, even if I'm only a couple of months into my contract.
  • Exactly. When the Lumia 735 came in Portugal (end of October) it had a cost of 230€ unlocked or 190€ at Vodafone, for instance. The difference basically payed itself, as it would cost around 40€ to unlock the phone, and Vodafone was not worth it.
  • You are on a tech site talking with techies. The average phone user in the US (and I expect all over the world, has little understanding of phone updates/upgrades. They don't hover around the blogs and forums, scurring for information. When is it happenning, what is in it, will my phone get it? Most are oblivious until the device tells them there is an update. Even iPhone users, with the annual media canpaign about the wonderous new devices that are coming out, aren't often aware that the new OS that comes with it, is likely coming to their phone as well.
  • Actually this is no longer the case. Now, even The Big Four offer cheaper no contract plans. And in terms of ATT and T-Mobile, no contract prepaid plans are available that have coverage that is just as good as postpaid for vastly cheaper prices.
  • Except there is a difference in services, especially with data.  If one merely uses voice and text and precious little date, or only data at home or places they frequent that have wifi, then yes, it can be cheaper on pre paid.  But overall post paid options still have the overall better full feature deals.
  • I get 20GB of data on Cricket for $55 flat and it uses the AT&T network. That is quite a bit less than actual AT&T plans (can you even get a 20GB plan for under $100?)  Sure, it is limited to 8Mb down, but that is plenty for a phone.
  • Well, as some people said, the US have too much power. Good thing that my UK Lumia 830 came with Lumia Denim when I first got it in March.
  • This really isn't the place to get political, but to make a long story short... One of our political parties that had a lot of power in the 80's convinced a lot of REALLY stupid people that handing the country over to the corporations was a good idea. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Man! We don't have shit like that in Finland! But we hsve ridicilous laws and pay taxes about everything.
  • Mathias, we have it easy in Denmark. All phones are sold unlocked and unbranded and will get all updates directly from the manufacturer. Before I moved to Copenhagen I've lived in both the US and in Spain (I'm originally Spanish). In the US you're just tied to your carrier and there's not much you can do. The vast majority of consumers in the States buy phones directly from the carrier for a cheaper price ($200 being the highest price you will normally see phones for) but then they force you to stick with them for 2 years on a contract. In Spain it's slightly better now, but it used to be a similar story. All phones would be sold with customizations everywhere (I've even had old Symbian phones from Nokia that had the entire Menu replaced by the carrier's own, which was way more limited but tried to force feed you their paid content).
  • Phones in the United States are subsidized by carriers. That means that instead of paying $700+ for a phone consumers only have to pay $100 to $200 up front. Except that this leaves you stuck in a 2-year contract on an overpriced plan. So really, you're amortizing nearly double the real cost of the phone over those 2 years. Of course, those carriers are expensive whether or not you're on a contract, but it does make it expensive to jump to another carrier offering a better deal. We do have low cost carriers that are much less expensive and work more like carriers in Europe. That, of course, means paying full price for a phone. Americans are a bit too comfortable with credit, and they love being able to get a new phone every year. So paying the lower price makes that feasible, even if you're spending the difference on the plan. Carriers have even started offering more absurd and expensive plans specifically catered to people who want to replace their phones frequently. However, there is another problem here. Often, when a new phone is launched you won't be able to find an unlocked version for quite a long time. Carriers expect deals that make phones exclusive to their network. The Lumia 830 is a pretty good example of that. And buying the international version often isn't an option because we'll lose the ability to access LTE.
  • Thank God Microsoft is resolving this bullcrap when Windows 10 Mobile comes out.
  • Or so they say. I'll believe it when it happens.
  • This.
  • Lol didn't they say that about wp7 then wimp out just as quickly as they did with xb1's drm policy
  • Ditto
  • Let's see how long AT&T takes to approve & deploy the Windows 10 Mobile update to existing Lumia users. I suspect my Lumia 1520 will receive the W10M update in Q2 2016.
  • Yes, but theoretically with the new devices finally coming out with Win 10 pre-installed, this should be less of an issue for a lot of folks. Posted via my HTC One (M7)
  • the830 was supposed to be first shipped with denim too...... well now we see that didint
  • My UK Lumia 830 was shipped with Lumia Denim.
  • I doubt the 92x/1020 will ever get it.
  • This ^ I was rather surprised that Denim even came to the 1020 from at&t.
  • That's optimistic
  • Carriers still control phone updates in the USA even the Windows 10 Mobile update, so if you have AT&T and they have not rolled out the update for Denim, you can count on not receiving the WP 10 update, unless you do it yourself. AT&T is not a customer friendly company.
  • I hope so too but that remains to be seen. MS said back in WP7 days that carriers could only block 1 update but not 2 in a row. Obviously they were able to block updates based on phone models
  • So in other words Microsoft lied, and nobody seems to be calling them out on it from the press.
  • Actually, if you look back MS did hedge a little and admitted carriers would be involved in the rollouts. I think while MS wants total control they know until they will have to work with the carreirs. Even Android with their huge market share is reliant on the carriers. How Apple gets away with it is kind of a myastery since the carriers really don't like Apple because the cost share they have to pay Apple is pretty high.
  • If you say you will get your brother to do something, and you find can't actually get him to, were you lying? Or were you just overzealous in your promise and expectation?  I believe MS had every intention on doing what they said they would, but it just wasn't to be. MS doesn't have the clout with carriers that you would think they would. The carriers have plenty of devices to make money off of. They don't need to sell MS phones. In the US at least, carriers selling phones is the only way they get sold (by and large).  So MS needs (needed) the carriers. So who gets to write the terms of the agreements. If in fact the new strategy is for MS to make the best devices it can to showcase Windows 10 on phones, and not to build a phone business, they don't really need to sell through carriers. It would be prudent if they offered some sort of financing plan for those that are used to using the carrier based ones. (Not subsidised, but they all offer what is essentially a 12, 18, 24 month no interest loan on the hardware, with the payments being a line item on the phone bill) It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The carriers have a tendancy to want unique carrier exclusives, and MS has stated an intent to not make to many phones. Either the carriers will all have to except the same model, or MS won't be on carriers (or MS will cave, but I don't actually expect that). There is precedent oin this country for an unlocked unbranded, multicarrier compatible phone. Lets see if this is what MS builds.
  • but remember, you need lumia denim to install windows 10 for phones :/
  • And if you install preview for developers first?
  • Microsoft needs to come out with unlocked phones immediately available with their new hardware launch!
  • High end Windows Phones aren't cheap at launch, and nobody is going to buy them unsubsidized. 
  • If I have the option, I will totally buy my next phone directly from Microsoft if it's unlocked and unbranded.  AT&T burned me on the POS 830, but I was smart and only did the Next12 plan on it.  We'll see if they let me turn it in at 12 months without buying another phone from them.  Otherwise, I'll just pay off the remaining 6 months and toss it in the trash. Unfortunately, switching carriers isn't really an option.  Verizon's no better, T-Mobile's coverage in my area leaves a lot to be desired, and Sprint is a joke.
  • Why would you think AT&T would let you turn in your phone. That's not the contract. Next 12 is a 20 month no interest loan. At 12 mos you can turn it in for another phone and continued payments, or pay the remainig 8 payments. Nothing says you can hand in the phone. They have no obligation to just let you out of your time payment plan.
  • Why not get rid of the contract and just go to an MVNO such as Cricket? Same exact service just different company. And way cheaper prices too...
  • No one? I will. I dont like the carriers and would be more than happy to pay more if needed just to pay them less and not advertise for them.
  • Microsoft has said that before, at this point actions speak louder then words. Microsoft should release a tool to help people with even pre-WP10 updates if the carriers are screwing them over, instead MS just sits on their ass and does nothing to help curb these carrier abusees.
  • How can you be so sure AT&T will update their phones to W10?
  • So does this mean that this phone won't receive Windows 10 Mobile? As I recall, Microsoft said Windows 10 Mobile will come to every Lumia device with the Denim update. Never said anything about the phones without Denim....
  • Yes, this is my concern! W10 is slated for the 830. However, if the 830 is not going to receive the update, does that mean it won't have the necessary software to even receive W10??!!??? I was an AT&T guy until this. Perhaps I'm stuck with AT&T if they continue with the most choices for WPs. However, it's getting obvious that perhaps it's time to buy unlocked phones apart from buying them directly from AT&T. I guess doing this would eliminate these types of issues in the future.
  • Why don't you simply buy your phone off contract? You can even buy it by installment.
  • No, they never said Denim.
  • They most definitely did say Denim
  • They did. Check the Windows 10 site that specified which phones will get it (640, 640XL and 435 in the US)
  • Exactly. Which is why I think AT&T has decided not to allow denim to such a nice phone. If they did, then it would impact their sales of new phones to owners of the 830, because an upgraded Windows 10 Lumia 830 wouldn't need to be replaced for quite a while. What they are likely to get instead are some people getting mad and switching carriers. Some people will just be that mad. Glad my 635 is a Country Variant version so I don't have to deal with a carrier when it comes to Windows 10.
  • AT&T is withholding Denim because it would impact sales of future phones...lol wtf
  • Yeah, that or there just aren't enough to justify pushing out the update.
  • Your logic is flawed, this does not force me to buy a new phone, it forces me to take my 7 lines OFF at&t at a loss of over 5000 per year to their company.
  • Yeah, I stated it would backfire and people would leave AT&T.
  • It's likely Microsoft may provide a solution through the developers preview app.  Or release an app that gets the firmware.
  • There wont be a developer preview just windows insiders, Gabe himself stated that last year. Once the next build is out just sign up and get on the slow ring, slow ring = preview for developers.
  • I'm on a Lumia 920 and running Windows 10 Mobile. It seems you will be able to get W10M even w/o Denim.
  • Big deal at least ms is committed cant say that of HTC entirely or Samsung
  • You can install the Insider build if you want. AT&T isn't going to push W10 to the 830, if they are skipping Denim already... Lol Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Win10 mobile --- direct updates from MSFT. Yes?
  • Yes, that would be nice but it's not going to happen in the USA, carriers control the updates. If you look at Canada, every WP got the Denim even the 530.
  • So that just means those that bought an 8x/s or an ativ s(sgh-t899m) were left out of update planning. But actually mnvo's like pc mobile have decided not to update their phones either(glad I dont use them)
  • Just means you should buy phones from Canada ;)
  • No
  • Yeah right. Good luck with that in the U.S. Microsoft!!!!!
  • Only for devices that ship with W10M installed, those on WP8/8.1 will still under the control of the carrier.
  • Mine got the Lumia Denim update from Microsoft here in the UK but I got my Lumia 830 with Lumia Denim.
  • 635 GoPhone?
  • I still haven't got the Denim update yet on my Lumia 635 AT&T GoPhone either, even though I'm using it with a regular AT&T wireliess sim card and account.  There have been many people complaining about this on AT&T's forums.  Maybe Windows Central can ask AT&T why the 635 GoPhones haven't been updated.
  • Yup. What I expected for my 830. I guess I will be putting it up for sale. It's been nice. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Dramatic
  • Lol sounds like it...the 830 is a spare. My 1520 and Moto X are my primary devices. It's a decent phone no doubt, but why should I have it if the camera features are going to be duped? Might as well sell it and get a 640 XL...camera feats should be on par anyway with what I have now. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • The 640 XL is nice. I miss my beast camera on the 1020 but my 640 feels smooth
  • The 830 still takes great pictures...even without Denim. You're making a bigger deal out of this than you need to be. 
  • Get a Microsoft Lumia on a different carrier. Then, you will more likely to get Windows 10 Mobile unlike AT&T.
  • What carrier would that be?
  • Why don't you just flash it to a country variant?  I have a 930 in the US.  Flashed it to GB country variant and it picked up Denim.  I'm sure you could do the same thing with an 830.  If you have fulfilled your commitment to the carrier, get it unlocked by them and then flash it.  It will still work with your carrier's sim.
  • Hello, I got my At&t Lumia 830 unlocked by At&t. Can you please tell me where I can fin some info to flash the country variant/rom so I can get OS updates. Thanks.
  • Microsoft, look at the Moto X Pure Edition. Please sell unlocked Lumia devices directly to customers that can be used on any carrier. These phones will be able to receive all the Windows 10 Mobile updates and not get abandoned like the Lumia 810/830.
  • The 950 and 950 XL will have Universal GSM radios.
  • I'm on Verizon :/
  • This ^^ I'm on Verizon as well with an ICON, and since we all know that there is no way Microsoft is going to be allowed to make a universal band phone that also works with CDMA, we can only hope that one of these flagships comes to Verizon. Otherwise, I'm SOL. No other carriers cover the area I'm in well enough to switch, so at that point it will be using my Icon until it gives out and then I don't know what after that, feature phone I guess, or God forbid, an iPhone.
  • How do we know that MS is not going to be allowed to make a phone that would work on all major carriers (in the US)? The can certainly make one...the technology exists....Motorola does it. I don't believe Verizon is required to provision all hardware though. So while it may technically be able to work on Verizon they may not have to let it. Then the question becomes if MS would incur the expense of adding the capability if Verizon indicates it wouldn't support it. I'm sure this sort of discussion has gone one, but we aren't going to hear about it. Would be interesting if MS built a capable device and Verizon refused to allow it on their network, wouldn't it.  I would think the FCC and FTC would enjoy that.
  • As a proud owner of an unlocked 1020 country variant I can say quite often I had to wait longer for updates then locked phone owners with some carriers. I really hope Windows 10 will treat us all equal.
  • The pricing on the new high end Moto's are excellent too. I'm not into Android, but I think Lenovo is doing great with their Motorola purchase. 
  • Indeed a big shame. My 830 will never get denim.
  • Or Windows 10 Mobile from the sounds of it!
  • So, can one imply that the AT&T version of the Lumia 830 will not be getting Windows 10 either due to not meeting the requirement of having the Denim update? Fortunately I have the 1520 and I don't mind using Insider builds anyway but the lack of Windows 10 is perhaps the bigger news for the AT&T 830.
  • Yeah I was just wondering about that and posted about it the other day in the post about 830 on the list of phones to get W10 mobile 1st. Guess the crippled AT&T version will be left out? Fucking HORSESHIT!!!!
  • Yes, this is speculation though. The crippled Denim the AT&T version has might possibly suffice for the Windows 10 update but we don't know for sure. It's also possible a firmware update will be released at the time of Windows 10 release. Still, the tone of their response made it sound as if the phone will not ever receive any updates including Windows 10 so Insider program might be the only option.
  • After this news, you really think AT&T is going to give you W10?? Insider is your best route. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • It is really a shame that the carriers have any part at all to play in the software update process on any phone.
  • Way to take care of your customers, AT&T!     With the billions in profit they pull in each year, they can't find the resources (maybe $1M or so) to make sure that their phones get the latest updates, not only for features, but security?  Truly and utterly pathetic.  Dumba$$ bean counters, failing to see the goodwill created by people receiving updates and features on their devices.  These corporate fools are just a massive bag of fail.
  • My 930 on Telstra in Australia has never received Denim. I don't believe Telstra ever rolled Denim out to any phones. I read the article that said Windows 10 was going to need Denim and thought 'well I just need to install the next build through Windows Insider then..'. Damn you Telstra!
  • Man I'm glad I bought mine unlocked but feel bad for people who didn't. Although, I do know their pain with having a AT&T Moto X. Hopefully that was the last phone I buy through a carrier.
  • I have the international version of the Lumia 830. I use it on tmobile and only get hspa+. No lte. But I would rather have this than deal with bullshiit that ATT is doing. I can't believe this is actually frustrating me.
  • How fast is hspa+ for you? To be honest I really don't care if I don't have lte as long as my connection is not as slow as molasses.
  • It's not bad, well I have an unlocked 930 on AT&T and the speeds are fine for me. Uploading takes longer but for email, checking social media, podcasts, even some streaming I have no problems. .
  • Cool! I'm sold! From now on, buying unlocked non-carrier phones!
  • Lol I remember trying to use a att spec. Dvp on tmo pcs 3g coverage wasnt that great. Would've been better with edge only
  • Hey, yeah what prensescim said is what I feel. The speed isn't the best, but it is good enough for the phone that I, myself WANT. I've had some data connection troubles.. But resets seem to have solved 90% of my phone's problems.
  • Regardless, in 2015, we can see that carriers can still be an impetus to consumer satisfaction. Here is hoping for a better Windows Insider experience in the future. Impetus? Shouldn't that be impediment? Impetus means something entirely different. One definition being "something that makes a process or activity happen or happen more quickly.".  Most likely the polar opposite meaning to the actual word you were after there Daniel, lol :)
  • Shut up
  • Wow, such a literate, considered and valuable reponse. Bravo sir. Your mother must be so proud.
  • Is there not a class action possible here?  They advertised this phone with all these features and are then not providing them...  
  • Did they actually advertise the phone with Denim, or Denim-specific features?  If not, no class action.  Even if they did, probably the best you'd get is false advertising and a couple of bucks of AT&T credit along side a few million in lawyers fees.
  • It came with denim but it needs an update to unlock the advertised features, that update is also called denim.
    Hence why people are saying the 830 runs faux or fake denim out of the box.
  • Oh, wow, that sucks.
  • They did, as well as Microsoft advertising denim out of the box, what we ended up with was a pre-release version of denim with the promise of full denim coming later on.  The employees of my local AT&T store talked about the features of the 830 including the quick camera and rich capture features. 
  • Yup. I was never told that it didn't have all the features out of the box (I should've done research before I went to the MS store ...as I was planning on getting the M8 instead). Looks like I messed up this time. Won't make the same mistake next time... Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Sounds like a legitimate case here. Noah seemed to have purchased the phone for not just its current features but the features to come that phone. I think it is reasonable to most that you don't purchase a mobile device without expecting an upgrade at some point, especially one that is advertised. Microsoft could be a party, but if they released the denim update to ATT, and they thwarted its release, then ATT should be liable for some tort of frustration under contract law. That's my take, and I am not a lawyer.
  • I actually bought the phone because it was being advertised as being the first phone to be shipped with Denim on board (including all the functions enabled by denim)  I held onto the phone waiting for Camera 5 to be released for the phone but found out after Camera 5 was offically released that the phone shipped with a pre-release version of Denim and would require the second half of the firmware to make the features function.  Like others I waited.... and waited.... and finally got ticked off enough to file with the BBB.    I asked the rep that called me regarding my complaint after telling me that it was not shipping and they would not refund me for the cost of hte phone (bought it for full price)  how and why should I have confidence that AT&T would not do this to me again on another phone.  His awnser was "I dont know"  well... I dont feel confident that they would not do this to me again.  I feel like a bait and switch took place, and I am the one that got screwed over.  I have 7 lines on my account, I cannot go buying EVERY phone on the account unlocked and carrier free, that is a BUTT load of money up front.  I guess I can have my wife myself and daughter buy the unlocked and carrier free phones, and have my inlaws buy their own phones, but that limits choices.  
  • Microsoft is as much to blame for originally shipping the 830 with this bullshit fake Denim!!!!
  • They arelt, but they did give a way to get the full denim which is via an update. AT&T refuses to relase the update therefore I think they are at the 100% mark now.
  • This. It should have never shipped to carriers with incomplete firmware. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • De hecho aqui en venezuela a los lumia 620 nunca llego!!
  • This why carrier exclusivity needs to end and sharpish.
    Microsoft is aware of this; hence the reason certain "partners" have been dropped. I'm hoping going forward there will be no carrier exclusive phones, zilch, nada. Only way to increase market share, US Carriers are just hampering growth with their petty and childish politics.
  • Yeah, and I guess all of us that are literally stuck on Verizon with no other choice can just go suck it, huh?
  • As an AT&T customer, this pretty much settles it. I'm buying unlocked, unbranded from now on...
    Edit: I actually have 2 L830's in my family plan. Luckily, they both belong to my parents and neither of them don't know, nor care what "Lumia Denim" is. But I know. And it still bugs ME.
  • My Samsung Focus and L920 bought on ATT contract, My phones after - 925, 830, 930, & 1520 all purchased off contract via MSFT store, ebaY, or Expansys
  • Crap, BS and hogwash!! Does anyone know if this will end getting WP10 for my Lumia 830? Don't we need all the updates in order to get W10? Even more so, does this mean AT&T won't even bother passing W10 to the 830??? If so, major bummer man!! I'm beyond pissed!! Can't believe this BS!!
  • Just install the Insider program. I seriously doubt AT&T is going to give more updates if they are skipping this one. It was a big update for this phone, enabling advertised features and all. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Another example for carrier screw up a good phone. MS, learn from it.
  • Wow., Microsoft. Stop this stupid things to continue happening....fools
  • Not a great ad for AT&T. Once you get a phone, we don't care about you.
  • Wait I thought the 830 shipped with denim, I got my mom an 830 and I feel pretty confident that she has denim. Also she has win10 mobile running through the insider program.
  • She Insider user? Wow, you have a great mom
  • LOL, I of course hooked her up.
  • A pre-release version of denim was pre-installed on the phone.  Not the full featured release version of denim.  its like how the lumia 1020 states that it has denim, but is really running the cyan firmware .
  • Ahhh got it.
  • There is a work around though. If you go to the Windows Store and download the Windows Insider App and register. Choose slow or fast ring. Preferably slow ring and you'll get the Denim update before you get the Windows 10 beta.
  • You can also use the preview for developers as well
  • You do not get the firmware through the insider preview, just the software. So you will not have the fast capture, rich capture etc. hardware functions that come with the denim firmware.
  • You don't get firmware from the Insider App, only OS updates. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Thanks Daniel, My real beef with my BBB complaint comes at the end where they stated the reason for not giving me a refund for the phone was because it was outside of the Buyers remorse time frame.   WELL FRICKEN DUHH, the social media department with AT&T drug us through the mud all but promising update "after testing"  The remorse  had was when I realized I am not getting the fricken update.    They might be loosing 7-8 lines from my family because of this crap. That equates more money lost to AT&T than simply giving me the 450.00 I spent on essentially a green 920. (bought out of contract just for the features ADVERTISED, and spoke about by IN STORE SALES PEOPLE)
  • I understand you are upset, but you aren't going to pull "7-8 lines" over this. People had ultimatums with the Chase/BofA app fiasco. Nobody followed through. Went to bed mad, woke up over it and were back to normal.
  • Actually I did shut down Bank of America account.  But... moved to Chase who then shut theirs down.  (Still there as one bank move a year is enough!)  Did however open an Abby for savings to support them. In this instance Microsoft are the ones who need to make amends as at IFA they promoted the 830 with all these new features and then never delivered.  They verged on miss-leading on other fronts then because of Hey Cortana not actually being on the 830 while promoting that feature but they are definitely responsible for not getting the full Denium camera features on the 830.  
  • It uphill battle, but you know what? if nobody did anything we would stay in the same situation we are in now.  Will this result in a change? I dont know, I doubt it, but I am sick and tired of sitting around waiting for a company to make decisions on a device I OWN, I PURCHASED, I should be the one deciding what is on it, not the carrier.  They advertised this phone to have certain features, they promoted it via workers in the stores, and they pushed it as having full denim.  THEY LIED!
  • Just flash another firmware
  • How do you do that?
  • You have to know the product code thats on a card deep inside the sim card slot. The cdn. Country variant(still rogers branded but unlocked) would be a good example of one that should be exactly the same as the att version
  • I am thinking of doing that. I just need to figure out which firmware to flash so I do not loose any functinality of the device on AT&T  
  • There is no different firmware. ATT's 830 is a different product code than every other 830.
  • I'm confused.   I got an AT&T Lumia 830 for a work phone, it updated to Denim as soon as I fired it up.   
  • It is confusing. The ATT L830 even says it has Denim in the Exras+info page. But it is a gimped or beta version of Denim.  
  • It's like a "Denim Lite" version that doesn't have all the features as other versions. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • The 920 on AT&T doesn't have Denim either. Every other country that sold the phone released the update. I can't wait for Windows 10 when Microsoft will push out the updates instead of the carriers.
  • Without Denim your phone will not update to Windows 10, it's a prerequisite
  • I joined the phone insider preview, and I'm using Windows 10 without problems on the 920.  Maybe it installed Denim because of the preview, but I hope Microsoft doesn't hold out on me just because AT&T is being lazy.
  • where does it say that in writing? do you have a link, source? Denim may be a requirement, but since the L830 reports itself as being Denim is this tied to a particular firmware release version? Any insight?
  • http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/mobile/support/faq/?action=singleTopic&topic=FA144485. Only phones running Lumia Denim (OS version 8.10.14219.341, or higher) can take advantage of the upgrade to Windows 10. By keeping your phone software updated you can get fresh new features and improvements, and resolve many issues.
  • I installed the W10 Insider build on my 1020 with Cyan. Didn't run any different than when I reinstalled it after getting the official 8.1 with Denim update. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Damn. This hurts
  • Maybe Windows Central could post a tutorial on how to flash a different ROM to a Lumia 830? It kinda sucks for 830 owners...
  • While their at it they should show Samsung wp8 users how to expedite their update aswell
  • I do not think there is currently a way to do that. The ATT L830 is a RM-983 and you cannot cross flash with another rom (RM-984 or RM-985) at this point. If it was possible somebody would have posted a how-to already....
  • Take a look at this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2515453 Certainly looks possible. I know this works great with the 920 and I don't see any reason it wouldn't with the 830. 
  • Here's the thing about this....Since AT&T is refusing to push software Microsoft has already given them,they could if they wanted to, release it as an OTA or to their stores to be installed there. This would show good faith on Microsoft's part and satisfy those owners, provided that the phone is capable of running the software. It's time for Microsoft to take control of their devices just like Apple does. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • It's already been said that W10M will get updates straight from Microsoft, but that pre-W10M devices still have to go through carriers, likely because of a firmware thing, or some contractual agreement.
  • Microsoft won't be doing complete OS updates, they are doing the same thing Google does with Android, which is updating the back end components of the OS themselves. 
  • Or the Lumia recovery tool
  • not their fault... had Microsoft follow the sane and logical approach like they do with their desktop operating systems. I cannot imagine the kind of catastrophe that would be if desktop users had to wait for oems like hp, dell, etc to approve Windows updates.
  • I considered the 830 for a while, but couldn't give up my 1020. Glad I didn't. I'm now waiting for the 950/950XL and will have to reconsider whether I stick with AT&T, switch to Tmobile (assuming either one carries the phone), or go unlocked and stick with AT&T as my provider.
  • AT&T gives good service so I think you should buy unlock phones.
  • Unlocked is what I'm doing from now on. It just makes more financial sense, since I have to have the latest updates. Carriers getting in the way of innovation just shouldn't happen anymore.
  • DONT GO TO T-MOBILE!!! Trust me, you will regret it.
  • Is the 830 on Rodgers unlocked? (in Canada)
  • 1st production run handsets sometimes would. But now I think youd have to had bought it from ms store which all it was is a rogers branded rom unlocked. Maybe if your lucky you might find the correct product code to cross flash your handset
  • You can buy the 830 online at the Microsoft Store Canada. There is an unlocked version for $549 The Rogers version will be locked to Rogers (no contract).
  • I Galaxy edge 6. Hated it and the rep in Att store refused to sell me a 830. That's why sales were no good.
  • Sure dude, sure. 
  • Did you ask him "pretty please!"? Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • "Affordable flagship" LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL This is what happens when you trust Microsoft's half-assed business decisions, like making their lead phone a budget device running outdated-at-launch firmware. Yet another strong moment for Microsoft, and its ability to underwhelm and disappoint. Glad I stuck with my 920, rather than blowing money on the overpriced, underpowered 830.
  • You mean Nokia right?
  • No.
  • This was the last Nokia device sold by Nokia, not Microsoft.
  • Microsoft completed the Nokia acquisition in April 2014. The 830 was announced in September 2014 and released in October 2014. The 830 and 735 were the last Nokia-BRANDED devices released, but they weren't released until 5-6 months after Microsoft took over the hardware division. They were in the works under Nokia, but Microsoft released them.
  • The 830 beats the 920 in most any way..
  • Well, unless you look at benchmarks. The 830 has a horrendous GPU. The 920's also got a higher-resolution display. All the 830 has on the 920 is the camera resolution. If you want it, the removable back is a plus, but it's preference, just like I find the 830 to be ugly because of that masty metal band in the middle of it. But I prefer to stick with facts, which state that the 920 has a much better SoC and display, while the 830 has a bit better camera and maybe better battery life (not a good comparison becuase the 920's battery is 2 years older, and therefore has more wear on it).
  • And if you want half way reliable coverage in West Virginia including rural areas AT&T pretty well has the market locked down, you can get all the other carriers but once you leave the urban areas you have no service, which means you have no cell phone service in 80% of West Virginia without AT&T.
  • SCREW CARRIER SUBSIDIZED PHONES. DIG DEEP. BUY UNLOCKED PHONES. IT MAY HURT, BUT I'M DONE!!!
  • Couldn't agree more. Buying phones outright unlocked alleviated so many issues with carriers. What a joke.
  • Become a insider u get Demi first
  • No, its only OS updates, not firmware. Same firmware. You get small OS updates first. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • At least they could have explained why.
  • The phone sold like ass, and they don't want to waste resources updating a phone that hardly anyone bought.  That's the reason why. 
  • And if it sold like ass, I can only imagine why.  Perhaps because every time I go into an AT&T store (and I have frequent opportunity to with working in IT) they have the Windows Phones in a back corner, and I constantly hear the sales people talking customers OUT of buying a Windows Phone.  "Oh, you don't want that,  it doesn't do anything" or "It's Windows.  It's too complicated". Despite Ivory Tower claims of support of Windows Phone from AT&T, their employees on the front line have NOT been supportive, and have frequently been disruptive and hampering to Windows Phone sales.  So AT&T has failed a not insignificant portion of their customer base on multiple levels by not making sure their partnership with Windows Phone was supported at all levels of their organization, and then acting like their customers are the problem and deserving of not being supported because the products they use weren't big sellers. The bottom line is they had a great line of products to offer with Windows Phone.  One that were it not for their exceedingly short-sighted and inconsistant support of said product, could have been nutured and grown and turned out to be a huge boon for them with the now realized advent of Windows 10 and LTE tablets like the Surface 3 being available through them.  They could have been on the front line of a pioneering and cohesive ecosystem.  Instead, they bowed down to the Prom Queen of iPhone, and the Town Whore of Android, and left a good option out of the picture.  
  • It's not at&t's fault that the 830 didn't sell. They had them on display quite nicely, and even bundled the device with a FitBit.
  • Yep. Senior Management sits in a room with the Finance guys. "We have tens of these phones on our network right now. Tens." Finance guys: "LOL nope, stop work and shift resources to the iPhone cash cow that gives us billions of revenue per year. Thanks." The end.
  • Hmm, I've heard ass sells pretty well. Never had to buy any myself, but I hear stuff.
  • Truth be told, it was a $400 dollar phone, with a 720p display and a Snapdragon 400 chipset. Nobody wants to pay that much for a low end phone, and Microsoft was stupid for pricing it that way. You could buy a top spec Android for the same price, like the One Plus or something. 
  • It isn't that easy to get a one plus. I tried
  • Let's see.  Demin was announced in conjuction with the 830.  AT&T has strung people along on the update for nearly a year.  Now they are flat refusing to issue an update, THAT THE PHONE WAS MISLEADINGLY ADVERTISED TO BE EQUIPPED WITH OUT OF THE BOX IN THE FIRST PLACE!! This is crap.  At the VERY LEAST, AT&T should be allowing all their 830 owners, regardless of how long they'vce had their phones, to have them unlocked immediatey. I have mine on Insider preview, so I wonder what will happen in that case with the release of W10 Mobile.
     
  • if you dear americans keep buying phones from service providers that's exactly what you deserve
  • It's not that easy. Some phones are only available through carriers, some are exclusive to carriers. Unlike Europe, in the US carriers all use different bands & 2 don't even use GSM so you would HAVE TO purchase a phone that works for your carrier. Last, buying off contract tends to be much more expensive than buying through a carrier & there's no monthly price reduction for paying full price on a phone. We Americans hate it too, there needs to be industry reform but that won't happen anytime soon
  • Actually, you do now get a price reduction if you bring your own phone or are off contract. The discount varies based on the size of your data plan. For example, Verizon charges $40/month for line access for a phone under contract, but if you pay full price or bring your own, the add-on is only $15 for plans over 6 GB and $25 for plans under 6 GB. So we save $50 per month because we have two off-contract phones and have a 10 GB plan.
  • That's progress. Is this the same for at&t? I haven't heard of a similar type of plan with them
  • Yes, same deal with att.
  • I bet all of the europeans here bitching about Americans who buy subsidized phones have cheap budget phones. If I was interested in cheap phones, I would buy unsubsidized as well. 
  • ASSHOLES!!!!!!!!!!!
  • 1020 users never got denim & that phone's major feature WAS the camera
  • We got Denim, but Microsoft decided to gut it because they could not be bothered to support their existing customers who bought one of their most expensive flagship camera phone on release.
  • In fairness, the 1020's hardware was nothing more than a hacked Qualcomm processor that was out of it's league from day one. It didn't have the hardware chops to benefit from Denim's aggressive imaging algorithims as it was maxed out the day it rolled off of the line.
  • Sure it could not do stuff like 4k video, but many benefits of Denim could have been implemented if Microsoft wanted to, like better processing algorithms, or HDR support, etc... In other words many of the features can be handled by the hardware even if its not the newest one, since other apps are capable of doing HDR and other photography features that were to come with Denim, and not implementing anything new on the still flagship photography phone is just a huge FU from Microsoft to all 1020 users.
  • What? I have Denim on my 1020. From AT&T no less. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Sounds like a GREAT example of when Class Action suits are appropriate.
  • 920 does not have Denim update too
  • 920 does have the denim update, but it doesn't do anything because the cmaera firmware wasn't updated.  If you have Windows Phone 8.1.1 on a Lumia 920, you have what Nokia/Microsoft considers "denim" for that device.  You can check in "About" as long as you do not have Preview for Developers installed.​​​​
  • I feel like the carriers should move toward focusing solely on operating and maintaining the networks and leave the sales of phones to MVNOs.  I've just recently switched to Google Fi and the experience is infinitely better than dealing with Verizon, Sprint, or AT&T (I've never been a T-Mobile customer).  The carriers are clearly inept at delivering updates to devices in this world of several differeing device OS's and then several different devices under the Windows and Android umbrellas.  Either they need to let the OS developers handle the updates or they need to move toward focusing solely on the network side of things.  Imagine if Comcast was responsible for releasing updates to your computer.  If Microsoft started their own MVNO, there's about an 80% chance I'd sign up.
  • Tepid sales is "probably" the reason? I hope you're wrong there Daniel.  Why a carrier would have that as a reason to not push out an update to a device they carry and WE pay them for? Does the update need to be seasoned, smothered in barbeque sauce and sit in the fridge overnight before it can be pushed out? 
  • Yes actually.  Tepid sales are probably the very reason the 830 has been dropped.  Just like the 810 of TMO, you'll probably get emotional support at best.  Actually updates are more than likely not in the pipeline, or more likely never crossed anyone's mind.  
  • But the update never arriving may be the very reason (or at least a big factor) for thee tepid sales in the first place. One of the main selling points for the 830 (fast rich capture camera) was supposed to arrive with that update.
  • If they'd priced it correctly from day one they'd have sold a bunch more. Flagship pricing for a mid-low end phone was never a smart move.
  • It costs a lot of man hours for a carrier to push an update, man hours cost money, and they don't want to spend money on a phone that didn't sell. 
  • That is complete BS, if ATT wanted to Microsoft would do all the update handling for them. The only thing most carriers are woried about are their stupi and often very useless apps they put on the phone that most people delete anyway, and holding back an update that works perfectly because of few of their stupid apps is completely unacceptable.
  • An update has to be tested by the carrier, that's the whole reason why Microsoft couldn't push Denim themselves. You have no fucking idea of what this entails. 
  • Microsoft needs to step up and get some balls to only allow carriers to sell their WP handsets if they guarantee all future updates Microsoft will release. I feel sorry for everyone who bought the Lumia 830 under the promise of getting future updates including Denim only to get completely screwed over by ATT, and abandoned by Microsoft who should come forward ASAP and simply push an official update to all ATT Lumia 830's regardless of what their agreements with ATT are.  
  • Its not the guarentee of future updates, the damn phone was ADVERTISED AS BEING THE FIRST TO HAVE IT ON BOARD WHEN SHIPPED. We were simply lied to out of the gate. 
  • Why don't he get the free developers preview. I have the 830 and was able to get the denim update.
  • Denim was also a firmware update, that is the important part missing.
  • Developer preview only deals with the OS level stuff, NOT firmware. So it states denim, but it is STILL the cyan firmware with a different label. 
  • My family is not leaving AT&T but will definitely buy unlocked versions of W10 Mobile next time.
  • The problem is most unlocked phones sold here in the US or that can be purchased don't have the full LTE bands in them.   That is the biggest problem.  Is MS would have put the US LTE band in the unlocked 830, ATT would have never carried it. However, some companies like BLU just sell their phones outright and can support all the US carriers unlocked.  MS just cannot do this and expect to get the carrier support.
  • Yes, many unlocked ones are like that, but I believe the unlocked 1520.3 sold by B&H and other retailers came with the US LTE bands. I hope MS also offer unlocked phones at their store because I think WP fans are burned by AT&T and will be very hesistent to buy from AT&T this time around.
  • they do.... at the MS store closest to me, as of last month, you have your pick of an AT&T or unlocked 830.
  • Not entirely true. I have international L830 with Denim RM 985 (South America version). I get full LTE.
  • There are many unlocked phones to purchase in the US that have LTE bands, they just don't happen to be Windows Phones.  High end unlocked Androids like Nexus, One Plus, and Moto have LTE bands, and the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus can be bought directly from Apple with LTE
  • Screw AT&T.
  • This is why MSFT needs to take care of all the updates and not the carriers!
  • And microsoft hasn't released the denim update to the unlocked Lumia 920 developer phones that they gave out at Build 3 years ago.  Still running Cyan  :(   
  • All the more reason Windows10 and Microsoft, not the carriers, controlling updates will improve the platform.
  • Yeah good luck with that pipe dream Microsoft!!!
  • It's all about the carriers selling you the handsets they want you to buy, the ones that the suppliers give them the biggest cut on the sale, that's why the sales guys either give misleading info or just don't know about certain handsets. The 535 is a good example the handset to buy is mega cheap for a smartphone but the tariffs don't match the prince of the handset I was offered a more expensive Samsung for a cheaper tariff than a 535 I was even offered a 730 at a cheaper tariff.
    Don't think for a second these service providers value your loyalty because after all the rhetoric there's no evidence to support the statement. They just want you to have the handset that makes them the most revenue.
  • Get out at&t. That's why I don't buy locked phones.
  • What a freaking fail! My Lumia 920 doesn't have Denim either. Not even sure it matters now. AT&T is a joke. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • ugh... there was a different person in the forums (same thread) that got a totally different answer from AT&T through the BBB. The BBB is useless unless lots of people start reporting AT&T, which by my count, is 3 atm. A 3rd person just submitted a complaint as well. I would have waited for that answer, so then you'd have 3 possible answers.    
  • Well hopefully the next windows 10 build is stable so I can get that
  • AT&T doesn't give a rat's ass about their customers; you're nothing but numbers and dollar signs on a spread sheet. Everyone pays a premium for perceived "premium service" but at the end of the day, it's spectrum and there are plenty of others who have it. Buy unlocked and screw the no-nothings with their corporate polo shirts at the Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile stores pushing their branded phones and half-assed service in multi-year contract "deals..." Oh, and I have an unlocked 830 and yes, I have denim on it.
  • Gosh.. what a news.. I bought unlocked L830 RM985 with Denim. And I also left ATT immediately. Now I feel even better than before
  • On a phone about a year old, this is a sad buiness... and MS can do what, nothing? No way to bypass? Contractual?
  • Thanks god that all windows updates are not blocked by DELL, HP, COMCAST, ASUS, etc...
  • Imagine...My word.
  • Welcome my fellow Lumia 830 comrades.  Welcome to the club of the dead 8xx devices.  We over at TMO understand how you feel, and very much understand your suffering as we've yet to convince the TMO guys that they ever sold a Lumia 810.  I believe our 822 comrades have fared little better over the past few years.     Let us raise a glass to potential never realized... seriously... update our freaking devices [insert apathetic carrier].
  • I actually have a Nokia 830 that I bought Unlocked for usage on T-Mo USA and I also have a Sony Xperia Z1 Compact, also on T-Mo. Sony gave me the Lollipop update and the Windows insider program gave me Denim a while ago. I primarily use the 830, which is now running Windows 10. What I have learned is that I cant wait for my carrier to update my phone because they don't support windows phone like they do the IPhone or Samsung. That's why both phones are unlocked as my next one will be too.
  • Tepid sales is usually the result of lack of support. ATT wished it upon themselves.
  • The L830 was on display nicely in AT&T stores across the US, they had it bundled with a FitBit. Please continue to blame the carrier though, because THAT makes a lot of sense. 
  • 635 here. If I never get Denim, as AT&T obviously will never push it to my phone, do I get Windows 10?
  • You are in luck, there is a tutorial in the forums in how to unbrand the att 635 and get denim. No luck for 830 though.
  • I don't get it ? We just got a Lumia 830 from AT&T and it shows lumia Denim in Extras and Info? Not sure what this article means.
  • Exactly the issue, the 830 came with an early form of Denim. you'll see things like Lumia Camera 5 and Netflix DO NOT WORK. I think most, if not all, other variants of the 830 have recieved an update that also gave them Update 2, fixing the issues mentioned.    
  • TAKE IT BACK!!!  Right now!  You will be so disappointed! If you really want the 830, buy it directly from MS!
  • That update is almost completely useless anyways.
  • Now I get it.....not the full version of Denim....I am unable to run Lumia Camera. That sucks and is pure BS
  • Still waiting on the outcome of my BBB complaint. Anybody here upset about it with ATT with their L830 please file a complaint...
  • I guess we now know how they got the "affordable" in the moniker "affordable flagship".  Hopefully car dealer's won't follow the example on the 830.  They will be selling cars without engines saying that they will come later.  What a joke! I guess the morals of all of this are: 1.  DO NOT BUY A CARRIER BRANDED WINDOWS PHONE!!! 2.  Do not buy a Windows Phone if it doesn't have all of it's functionality enabled right away.  If there is a promise that something like "Continuum" will come in an update, DO NOT BUY THE PHONE!!!! Only get a new phone when all of the functionality that you are looking for is in the phone.  I'm very leary that any of the current "Windows 10 Ready" phones will actually get upgraded.  The track record is that they won't.  I'm now hoping that the Talk/City/Goof-ball-man phones are delayed until after the New Year.  If they aren't, I'm guessing that there is over a 50% chance that these phones will never see all of the functionality of Windows Phone 10.  BUYER BEWARE!!!!
  • it's all carrier branded phones (well, not apple, but everyone else) think is, the phones that sell the most get the most attention.
  • And that is why apple iOS is so popular in the USA
  • I strongly recommend any and all buyers of the Lumia 830 and any other Lumia phones that haven't gotten Denim (and for that matter, any Windows Phones that haven't gotten 8.1 Update) to file complaints against the carriers. If you put enough pressure on them, the BBB will be forced to act and they will be forced to give a better response than "ooops, it isn't available, sorry". Make sure you include information from the Microsoft support sites showing that the update exists and is available from other carriers for the same and similar phones.
  • exactly, see my post above. 
  • unfortunatly, the bbb has no REAL power, especially against a company like AT&T. now, AT&T won't want the bad rating, but how many million customers use AT&T? now how many use AT&T branded 830's? Now i wish AT&T wasn't so secretive with this kind of info.
  • I've got one, and had been trying to get one for my mother for a while, local store was already out of stock, said they thought they were selling quite well for a Lumia. To be blunt.... I'm pissed off with this news, and it goes right to misleading advising I'd a product. The phone was sold... With denim, it was advertised... With denim... AT&T support had promised.... Full denim.... Can someone with some clout and contracts make some calls to either MS or att and ask exactly what the f is going on here? Were can bitch and moan all we want, but in the end someone needs to act. Noah took a great first step with the BBB, but the reality is the BBB can't do anything about it. I've called att support a few times, and reach time told that the update was in testing, and I guarantee if I call today..... I'll be told the same. :|
  • Just sold mine on E-Bay 2 days ago, everyone knew this was coming. Sad really because it really was a nice phone. I wish WP was more open source like Droid, so I wouldn't have to worry about it not getting updates. At least over at XDA people are still updating things years later. I hope that the WP10 flagships come straight from MS with MS updates like Google does with the Nexus. That would be awesome.
  • STUPID ! how hard is it to push an update?
  • I have Denim on my ATT 830 without using the Developer Preview. I installed WP10 preview then did a restore using Lumia Recovery Tool and Denim was restored to my 830.
  • Unfortunately, you do not have full denim. That requires a firmware update. Unless you have a non Rm-983 version of the phone. If your phone is rm-983 (att), then your phone will show a pre-version of denim. Lumia Camera will not work on your phone
  • love how the posters from the forum thread where this originated are doing fire control/educating in these comments :) myself included.
  • Off course asking @Lumiahelp to comment gives us the following.   Lumia Help ‏@LumiaHelp 4m4 minutes ago @digitalmikeoz We are unable to comment on any unofficial website. We suggest visiting the link previously provided for future updates. ^AF  
  • What I don't understand is why can't consumers get updates to the phones they purchased?  I don't have to wait for my cable company to approve Windows 10 on their network before I get the update on my computer..... If my laptop connects to LTE do I need to wait for at&t or any other mobile operator to allow me to update my laptop os?  Smart phones are nothing more than small computers connected to a network.... Similar to any laptop out there.  Yes, I understand there are some differences with mobile bandwidth being limited compared to a standard internet connection.  Why can't mobile operators just force an update over wifi only?  Something really stinks or I should say something is really rotten how mobile operators treat their customers with updating phones the consumer owns.  How does Apple get away with this?  My wife's 5c gets any update Apple releases that day.  I hate to say their should be a law against mobile carrier update blocking, but maybe their should be?
  • Since they won't update them, ask AT&T to unlock the phone.
  • That doesn't do any good, software wise. Only allows you to take it to a different carrier. You'll still need ATT for updates. Unbranding is what is really needed. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Fact is US carriers screw Microsoft and every other cell phone manufacturer.  If I was ever in for some collusion it would be for all the manufacturers to join together united in pushback to put customers first.
  • This it's ripe territory for T-Mobile to step up and and continue uncarrier by declaring they won't leave a phone behind.
  • I totally agree.  John Legere needs to do a uncarrier event allowing all upgrades for all phones.
  • This is big as it means these phones will not be getting Windows 10 either as that requires Denim.
  • keep in mind that until the release of the firmware ATT will always say that 'at this time the software will not be available' whether it is planned for release or not.. but the update is long in the tooth, and both of my local ATT stores do not carry the 830 in house (and have a 2-3 week ordering period if you want to wait for one), so it is likely that the phone was a flop and they are killing support for the device while providing whatever minimal contractual support they have to. This is one of the reasons that I (very sadly) no longer have a Windows phone... I really hope that they get their act together with the next round of devices. I want back in the ecosystem.
  • Remember when the Lumia 920 on AT&T got the Portico update before anyone else in the world? My how times have changed hahahahahaha
  • AT&T was very quick with Cyan on the 1020 as well. Microsoft is also to blame, this phone should never have shipped with a gimped firmware. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • This is very disappointing and there really seems to be no solution. If I were to access the slow ring update, it sounds as if I would not get access to the full Denim feature set due to lack of firmware.  There is no source of that needed firmware?  Is this the connection between the hardware and the specific carrier specific frequency bands and thus not available from Microsoft?  WHY NOT?
  • Can Microsoft just become it's own carrier...thats so messed up because it was an assumed promised it would get it since Denim was almost always shown on the 830. It's like the Lumia 900 on a smaller degree.
  • Here is the reality:  Microsoft sides with carriers because they can charge them for updates.
  • Wow, US carriers are truly the one that kill off WP.
  • Why would it be released at this point if Win10 is around the corner anyway
  • Because W10 may still be months away & Denim was supposed to improve certain capabilities or features.
  • This is why I'm happy my 830 is unlocked, which begs the question. Carriers are the worst!
  • In future people will know where to go and state their case. Time to flash a different ROM i guess.
  • if that was possibly a lot of people from these forums would have already done it. At the moment no cross-flashing is known for the RM-983 (from RM-984 or RM-985). 
  • I love cheap phones. Especially when the Telco logo says 'in your face'!
  • This is why I am glad W10 updates will be carrier independent.
  • I doubt that will happen... Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Microsoft should bypass att and release it through the dev preview and insider paths.
  • T-mobile too, I'm still waiting for denim on my 530
  • As longest i get the final builds bit foe windows mobile 10 i dont care of denim
  • Ditto for me in Malaysia. Almost every WP sold here is SIM-free. Thats usually phones how are sold here. Plus, sadly, for couple of years now, our local telcos never offers WP to customers.
  • ^this - been buying phones sim free since the winmob days. never gotten any carrier bound phone.. besides, the telco actually slipstreams the price of the phone into your monthly bills and you actually end up paying twice the price of the phone.
  • Honestly, this kind of crap just makes it hard to keep investing in the platform and MS. The Focus was a great phone, but then you had to kick it for Win 8, okay. Then the 920 and the no replacement until fall. My 1520's screen crapped out and yet still no flagship replacement. 360 finally was great after I had to ship back 4 units for RROD, and the no backwards compatability with the Xbone is kind of shitty.  I have a Surface RT that they'll never update again, or support. Xbox Music never lived up to Zune (again a dead product) but they had no problem charging for a beta program. Wasn't their whole ad campaign to stop being a beta tester? That is exaclty what it seems I am hoping the Surface 3 I just bought gets an update or two.
  • I stopped going through carriers in 2007. It's a shame some still either feel the need to, or actually need to.
  • I also complain about the Denim update just yesterday. Im asking AT&T about the Denim update on my Lumia 520...they said that i should contact Nokia...lol...i said that the control of the update is in the carrier's hand...they said that they dont have any updates or possible it will not be updated
  • BS, if not selling well is the reason they aren't releasing it, what harm can it do if they do release it? "Oh we don't want to piss off our really valuable tiny amount of customers that are demanding this update. Think of the backlash from so few customers!"
  • Also I have an 830 that isn't even half paid off. Think I'll buy it out to 12, start a new NEXT plan, then just return it and buy an unlocked.
  • Upgrade path to W10 lies trought 8.1.1 aka Denim :|
  • Just wait for Windows 10
  • If AT&T won't push this update, what makes you think they will push W10?! Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • I am Glad that I live in Europe and don't have to put up with this kind of B.S. that are north american friends have to deal with. I always buy my phone unlocked and use prepaid sim card and if I don't like the service I walk. Having said that peaple on this forume should jump on AT&T facebook page and say what they think of this situation we as windows phone users its about time we make are voices heard. I am getting sick and tired on how customers are treated just because they don't belong to the" I" herd. Me I am on a prepaid and pay € 4 every 30 days for 300mb of data witch for me is more then I need because most of my data is over wifi.
  • Well that is shitty
  • Things like these drove me back to android. Still have hope though... Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • I changed the back of my 930 to green from black so I have the same black frame green back as the 830 in the pic.... Best combo imo, shame nokia didn't offer it on 930.... Just stupid gold options.... Pity about denim missing on 830 especially when it was promised at launch and was shipped with denim in other markets.... Care to explain at&t? Telco's have Americans by the balls. Cdma icon anybody?
  • What a brave move.... That's really nice to see that people are raising there voice against thses carriers who think consumers are stupid
  • Did T-Mobile ever release denim for the 521? I switched to Metro PCS and a 640 a few weeks ago. I pulled the sim card from my 521 and did a factory reset. When it completed it had denim which it did not have before (there was a big notification about it on the phone itself). I compared the firmware update notifier number and it was the same as on my 640: 1.2.12.1. Maybe with the sim card removed, T-Mobile couldn't block it, if it works that way. Factory reset is a big deal and there's no guarantee it would work, and it may be that denim was already available for the 521 on T-Mobile, but if you've nothing else to lose...
  • Daniel,
    Thanks for the article about the Lumia 830 on AT&T.  There are many unanswered questions however.  And I rely on Windowscentral for answers.
    1) Is Denim required for Windows 10?
    2) Microsoft has stated that the 830 is one of the phones that will get Windows 10.  Does that apply to the AT&T 830?  If not, what does that say about Microsoft and their relationship with carriers?
    3) Microsoft has stated that future phones and Windows 10 will be upgraded differently than the current process.  Will we still be reliant on carriers being a part of that, or in the future will we have assurances that we can update our phones independently of them?
    4) What about buying an unlocked/unbranded phone?  What are the pros/cons of that? Thanks
  • My ATT Lumia 830 came with denim pre-installed.
  • not full denim though.it is a pre-denim. you cannot use advanced features of the lumia camera app, which you cannot install. 
  • This whole conversation just doesn't make much sence to me. I'm guessing most of us don't travel around the world so whether or not the phone is unlocked doesn't really matter. If I buy an unbranded phone or buy a carrier specific phone knowing I'm going to be sticking with say AT&T for years to come anyway, why does it even matter? I buy the phone outright, I own it, no contract, I can have it unlocked, I can install Windows Insider app FREE and get all updates without depending on the carrier. I'm not defending the carriers in any way I just find it odd the whole branded versus unbranded thing. It seems like the only real reason to buy an unbranded phone is to be able to snub your nose at the carrier and say: I don't need you to buy my phone. Kinda silly since you're paying them monthly anyway for cell service.
  • Is the Windows Phone Recovery Tool any help for the AT&T 830?  I don't have an 830, but I've use the WPRT on my AT&T Nokia 1520 with good results. Doesn't the Tool offer the most current version of the Windows Phone OS for any particular model? Here is the link for anyone who wants to try it out.  You have to install the Tool on a standard Windows PC and then connect your phone with the USB cable to use it.  http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=525010
  • unfortunately not. all it will show is the latest ATT firmware, which is the incomplete denim. you can fake the phone into thinking it is a different phone, but all that will give you is 8.1 update 2. that is the latest OS but not the latest full Denim.
  • Owning an unlocked Lumia 1520.3, I feel like this is how all phones were meant to be made. No carrier restrictions or artificial limitations on this device.
  • Does anyone know why international LTE bands aren't available on any carrier in the US? Is the spectrum owned by TV, GPS or something? I was just thinking how great it would be if there was a carrier that supported LTE bands of most international phones.
  • Sweden. /thread
  • Crap!!! That means my Lumia 530 won't get the update :( and that is the only reason why I got a windows phone!!! -__-
  • Bought the 830 because my 920 camera went out. On the next 24. So I'm screwed. No 10 for me, unless someone finds a work around.
  • Just got .341 update on Lumia 830.
  • Karl11, what did you do to get the .341 update on your 830. According to the MSFT website the installed software must be 8.10.14219.341 or later to upgrade to W10 mobile. My wife has an 830 and the early Denim is not sufficient.  
  • Consumers just need to band together and file a class action suit against ALL the carriers to force them to release any updates that the OS maker pushes out or allow the consumer to break their contract penalty free.