Why iPad Pro has us seriously psyched for Windows 10 on ARM

*written

I dont understand your statement.  There are so many tablets with similar form factors like the Huwei and Samsung tablets.  Thry are full windows, support pen and use intel core processors.  What's the point about the ARM chips.  Good question from a consumer perspective is if they perform (ARM Chips) better and are more cost effective as the intel M series.  That way we as consumers can determine what's a better value for our money.  They can put windows on ARM and use continuum and market it as the latest mobile productivity force etc.  But in real life  it will be a better value for our money, what about the performance and so on, otherwise I rather get an ultrabook that I don't mind to carry around.  OMO

When you define "form factor" not only regarding size but also wieght then there are *not* so many tablets that are as thin *and* light as the iPads. In Every size class from 8 over 10 to 12 inches Windows tablets have had and still have today more weight in comparison to iPads or the best Android devices. I therefore hope that a switch from Intel to ARM helps in reducing this overhead of Windows.

My original Surface RT had double the battery life of my SP4. They can be thinner, with smaller batteries, instant resume. Intel still hasnt matched ARM for this yet...

I respect Richard's opinion, but I strongly agree to disagree. Apple and iOS may be great phone OSs, but terrible tablet ones, especially Android. (This is my opinion.) There are plenty of Windows tablets that are just as thin and light as the iPad. Also the newest Surface Pro is quiet in both the m3 and i5 versions. You can't beat the versatility of Windows. I'm not trying to change your mind, but it's like you have not been keeping up with all of the great hardware that has been released since the Surface Pro 3. Every problem you mentioned about Windows tablets have been solved, including LTE in the new Surface Pro. Besides, I'll never get a Windows 10 on ARM device for one reason: games. Most games that require x86/x64 can't be emulated, especially classic games. I knew that when I saw that the game they used as an example in W10 on ARM was WoT: Blitz, an ARM tablet game.

P.S.: When I said Apple and iOS, I meant Android and iOS.

I get it man. I get it. So tired of Apple users going out of their way to tell me how much Apple products are better than the stuff from Microsoft. Total strangers will see my Windows Phone in an elevator or coffee shop and come running just to tell me how lousy it is.  It is like they are part of a Kool-Aid drinking cult that thinks they can openly insult anyone not using an Apple product. I hate 'em. 

You don't realize how transparently false your baloney comment is, sniperboy.  No stranger's going to be "running" up to you to tell you how lousy your Windows device is.  The truth is nobody cares what you're using. 

Yes. They do.  Since a lot of people have never seen a Windows Phone, they do a double take when they see it. If they ask me about it, a lot of time they recommend that I should get an iPhone because they've heard that Windows phone are dead. 

I think you're thinking about the Android users there

apps apps apps.........

Exactly. What makes the iPad fom factor useful is the wealth of touch oriented software available. I still use my Surface as a touch device, but its limited. You do have the power of desktop software available, but when you use those apps, you generally attach a keyboard and go laptop/desktop mode.

TBF though there are apps I wish I had on the iPad that I could have on a Windows machine. Proper Adobe apps for one. Otherwise all I really use regularly that aren't on Windows are things like Prime Video. I could force myself to use a browser for that if I have to. Or just pack a $49 Fire tablet, too :)

I'm using the Amazon Video app on my iPhone, while I wait for a proper Surface Phone, and it works as well or better than Netflix app.   Is that app not available for the iPad as well?  Just saying.   Maybe you need to revisit the app store? :)

"Proper" Adobe apps?  Not a fair statement at all, IMO.  Why would you want to use a tablet for that?  Any capable desktop OS would be preferable including Windows and MacOS.  Dirtrot is absolutely correct.  In a tablet OS war, Windows would be a distant third place precisely because of the dearth of capable apps that are available on iOS and Android.  IMHO, unless and until MS somehow addresses the app gap, it really doesn't matter whether Windows is running on intel, ARM, or a Radio Shack TRS-80.  I make exactly the same comment whenever WC puts out one of their seemingly endless ra ra sis boom bah articles about the mythical Surface Phone.  It will never make a dent in the consumer market.  That ship has sailed, and to MS' credit, they've moved on.  The only way I can see their getting back into that game is through a killer bridge that makes porting Android or iOS apps to Windows painless for developers on that platform.  Thus far, MS' attempts at bridges has been, at best, feeble.  I was a WinMo loyalist for many years, but I finally threw in the towel.  And I won't be spending any $$$ on Windows as a tablet or phone until the app gap is addressed, no matter how compelling new hardware might be.

I would love to get an iPad Pro and Apple Pencil. Even in THAT limited area, though, iOS is no substitute for a full computer OS, Mac OR windows. Apple, way back when, made a serious error in not developing a software strategy which would eventually MERGE MacOS and iOS. Maybe some day that will still happen, but they sure have one HELL of a disadvantage at this point in time. As a former Mac user, now on Windows 10, there remains, IMO, not that much difference in the computer OS to get all riled up about. Chill, people.

You do have the power of desktop software available, but when you use those apps, you generally attach a keyboard and go laptop/desktop mode.

That's it in a nutshell.  Mr. Devine wrote that "if you want a desktop experience, you still need a desktop OS."   While true, that's not all you need.  You also need a desktop environment... specifically, a reasonably sized display (which an iPad standard or Pro probably does have, depending on your definition), a hardware keyboard, and a pointing device (mouse or touchpad) that allows hover effects, right clicking, and has two-stage point and click (necessary for the level of precision for desktop software, with its relatively small UI elements, to work without being an exercise in frustration).  These are the parameters around which the desktop OS was designed, and even if Windows 10 now has more flexibility, the software written for win32 usually doesn't. That's why the iPad is limited to being "just" an iOS device.  It's because it's "just" a touch device, and iOS was designed for that specifically.  Apple has chosen to lock the iPad down to the point that the user can't even see that there is a file system somewhere in there, and the seemingly arbitrary limitations are a frequent area of complaint (it would be for me if I had one too).  For others, the level of abstraction from anything vaguely computer-ish is a feature, not a flaw; the iPad is the go-to device I would recommend to people who are not interested in learning about computing or tech.  It's locked down enough to make it difficult for someone to completely mess things up, and the things it can't do are of no concern to them.  They're willing to adapt to what the device can do, or the "Apple way" of doing things if it can be done, rather than demanding that the machine do it my way (as I would). In contrast, Windows (on the desktop) is supremely easy to mess up if you don't know what you're doing (assuming the person in question is the owner of the PC and does not have an IT person or department to configure it and lock it down so he can't do much harm on it either).  That's one reason I like it much more than iOS... the ability to mess things up is power.  I can do more with it, even if it does open up all kinds of risks that seldom get into the Apple themepark.  Personally, I like Apple's way of doing things better in terms of iOS vs. MacOS.  They have one platform that is optimized for touch, and everything that runs within that platform is made exclusively for that type of usage.  There's no question that an iOS app is meant for touch use first and foremost; that's all it can be.  MacOS, on the other hand, is all about traditional hardware keyboards and pointing devices (mouse or laptop's touchpad).  It does that and it does it well (at least according to Apple's philosophy).  The two platforms cooperate well, sharing data and using the same "cloud" services to allow data to be seamlessly shared by approved devices on either platform, but they are distinct. Microsoft, obviously, has a different approach.  They're trying to straddle the divide and be all things to all devices.  When Windows 8 came out, it was clearly oriented more towards tablets and phones than desktop users would accept... but touch users generally thought it was excellent.  Then Windows 10 arrived, having moved the little slider more toward "desktop" and away from "tablet," and it was more accepted by desktop users, but many have said it's not as good as 8 was on touch.  It's still not as intuitive or fluid as 7 was on the desktop either.  It looks like Apple's Tim Cook was right when he said that converging the Mac and the iPad would result in compromises that would harm the experience for both platforms.  Of course, this means that convertible devices that can jettison the keyboard/mouse unit and become a full-on tablet are not possible within the Apple ecosystem, but it also means that for those who use devices that are one or the other, not both, they get an OS and a platform without compromise designed to accomodate other (and to them, irrelevant) platforms.  A lot of desktop users don't like the tiles and other mobile-oriented bits of the last few versions of Windows.  I certainly am within that group.  But for mobile devices, I can see how they could be quite useful.  How good could Windows mobile be without the compromises made for desktops?  It's a question we may never see answered, as MS seems committed to using the PC platform to try to force a credible Windows Store into existence, but it hasn't worked in four years.  PC users aren't interested enough in mobile-style apps to create a market for them, so the app devs don't write for the Windows Store.  Even MS itself, from what I have read, has released apps for iOS and Android but not its own platform.  Without any mobile apps, it's hard to see how non-x86 Windows devices will ever get any traction.  If the existing x86 program library is going to be the de facto "Windows Store" in function if not in name, the devices are going to have to emulate Windows desktop features like a point and click mouse instead of direct taps, and that could work, assuming the hardware was powerful enough, but whether it's the experience that people accustomed to dedicated to mobile OSes are looking for is another question.

This comment is only in reply to the convergence of desktop and touch. To be fair, no one has (successfully) done what Microsoft is trying to do, which is why people like Tim Cook can easily say "oh there's going to be compromises." There are bound to be bumps in the road. I personally like the direction they are going. From the very inception of windows 8 and windows phone 7 my dream is basically what Microsoft is trying to do with Windows 10 and Cshell, conceivably one OS that runs on a variety of shaped devices. It's a long road no doubt, but I think it'll be worth it in the end.

I have no issue whatsoever using desktop software touch only on my 9.7 inch. You only need a keyboard for text input, or a mouse for things like some desktop games. All you need is the correct screen and app scaling for everything else. Just scale up the windows UI, and if you get an app that runs too small, use the compatibility settings for that app. Done. Windows software wipes the floor with mobile OS apps, whether its the browser or power software like adobe or Fl studio. 
Of course there are platform exclusives on every platform, but overall windows has higher software quality, better funded development, richer features, deeper games and more power user app options. Having used every kind of tablet OS extensively, I'd never go back to a mobile OS even though in some areas it's got its merits.  However I will say iOS isn't bad. Its userbase actually pays a little for software, giving it the slight edge on a tablet next to android. 

Yes! I have a Huawei MateBook. It's really pretty good, but there are apps on my iPhone that offer a much better experience than the same application as a web page on the MateBook.  For example, there is no Comixology app on Windows. I have to use the web site. As a result I can't download comics for offline reading like the iOS app can. I could just read on my iPhone 7, but the Huwei has a much larger screen. There are plenty of other apps I use on my iPhone that don't have a Windows version. On the other hand, I haven't found a Quicken replacement with the features I need that is iOS compatible. That would go a long way toward replacing my Windows Tablet with an iPad Pro. I have a Windows Phone (It was $20), but it has the same app problems as the full Windows store.

The Matebook is indeed the only so far from the Windows hardware world to be better than the iPads. It is much lighter than the Surface devices and thinner than them. I therefore too hope that with ARM based Windows tablets I finally can let my Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 got to rest. It is the lightest 10 inch tablet, but Android as everybody knows. Their new 10,6 inch Windows device, the Samsung Book, weighs 50% more and I don't know for what.

E x a c t l y...
Satya Nadella must PAY DEVELOPERS (equals, no royalties for two years, pay/buy best apps, FUND DEVELOPERS AND STARTUPS investing in a dead technology (uwp).
Maybe it s too late. Nadella is a great d###.

I've no love for Apple products but I really only take issue with their generally second-rare software, not the first-rate hardware. This has been quite refreshing in a media world of blind brand loyalty and people wanting everyone else to like what they like. The cold, hard truth is that you're right: The iPad Pro isn't worthless. The Surface isn't ideal for everyone. I'd still take the fanless Surface Pro over any iPad, but I'm sure if actually spent enough time with the iPad I'd start to appreciate it's size and weight, and perhaps start looking for a similar Windows option, too.

10-inch ARM tablet with power on par with the iPad Pro, here's my wallet.

I feel the same, and keep using my Nokia Lumia 2520 WinRT with an ARM processor with a tear in the corner of my eye :-) What could've been... <sigh> I also keep using my iPad for light surfing, YouTube etc, more often than cranking up my Laptop with a Windows 10. Even if the software leaves a bit to hope for, it is handy and quick. That's what we need.

I'm pretty excited for Windows on ARM for very similar reasons. I currently have a Surface 3 which I like a lot. But it's a little bulkier than I'd like and it's definitely not as performant as I'd like. Something in a form factor similar to an iPad, with better performance than the Surface 3 but with the same or more versatility that the Surface 3 has sounds pretty compelling to me. Hopefully MS will release something soon and won't price it so high it doesn't fit in the secondary or tertiary computer category. 

I agree. Maybe the author is up for a job at MacDaily? If so, good luck. That said, and without the need to slobber on the balls of Steve Jobs, we can all agree that Windows 10 on ARM might be big for Windows. If Intel tries to block it, especially after dropping their own mobile chip development, we need to picket the Intel offices. That would be seriously wrong.

Do you really think current ARM devices will outperform the Surface 3? I can't imagine they will. They will probably match it at best, especially when running legacy software.

 We here at Apple Mobile Central hope you enjoy your change over to your new Apple devices...............    All Apple all the time.......  Maybe we could get a few Op-Ed's done on how the Xbox should switch to iOS.......   :) :)

Xbox switch to iOS haha. You made my day!

Maybe if you read beyond the title.

 Maybe you could look at my prior statement and notice........... :)  :)      Don't get me wrong, I have been on record in the forums as being excited about Windows on Arm......however it is odd how many Apple related items make the headlines......  A joke out of frustration is still a joke....

I don't think it's odd. These things are compared to each other in real life all the time.

I'm excited too. As long as one of the OEMs, hopefully Microsoft with Surface, decides these devices aren't just supposed to be low end devices and builds a truly great ultraportable device. Could bring the Surface tablets into the next realm of battery life. It's always been OK, but now it can really be great. Make a decent sized Surface with one of these chips and I would be very happy and would definitely want one.

All I could see in this article is compliments and praise for a larger (and overpriced) iFad, which is the same thing as an iphone, which is the same thing as an ipod touch. All the same products just different size. It hasn't changed since what? 2007?

Hardly a fad there buddy.  Too bad that Microsoft could not get their **** together and get apps on their OS'es!  would make all the difference.  Until those apps I use on my ipad come to MS,  I will always favor my ipad over my surface 3.   Hence the reason I sold my surface.   I use my windows 10 desktop EVERY day....for many hours,  but when I just want to kick back, read a magazine,  etc...the ipad is better!   Too bad the fanboys here cannot get that past their blind loyalty.   

So the ipad is "better" for "kicking back" and reading a magazine....   Yea.  I'd totally pay $600-$1000 for that ability. 

good for you...I know I did.....and ditched my surface 3 because it has **** for apps.  so making it useless as a tablet,  its processor, etc made it slow as a desktop,  and the flexy keyboard made it crap for a laptop.   SOOOO... I bought a real tablet that could do things I want to do on a tablet,  and bought a full windows 10 2 in 1 laptop.  No comprimises like windows 10 running on a tablet is.  ohhhhhh, BTW fanboy tears downvotes....awesome...  

So what you're saying is that you didn't know prior to buying your Surface 3, that it didn't have all the flimsy apps that the iFad does?  And you didn't test the keyboard prior to buying it?  You didn't know it wasn't as powerful as a full blown laptop?  You sound pretty ignorant BTW, and "apps" (or what we use to call, programs) you're playing with can easily be replaced by just going to the website.  

Can they? There are plenty of apps that don't have work equivalents, especially games and media like magazines.

" flimsy apps"  Ha ha ha ha.  Nice spin.  Please name a few of the MS Store apps that compare equally to or better than their iOS and Android counterparts.  The simple truth, as painful as it may be for you, is that app offerings on the Windows platform are a joke when compared to those of iOS and Android.  And this from a devoted Windows fan.  But even as a Windows devotee, I've no illusions about the state of the app offerings.  MS will never compete in the tablet or phone space until this problem is addressed.  Instead of being a blind MS loyalist who spins rubbish in attempts to defend their paltry app offerings, I suggest you consider calling MS out on their utter failure in this regard. 

All I see is someone completely missing the point. But OK.

Do you get increased article revenue from engaging with the negative nellies?  Seems like a waste of time for someone as accomplished as you are. You keep the stories coming and let the community handle the trolls. We like your take on things, even when some can't.  The writing team here is excellent.  Seeing you engage like this is less than excellent.

While I generally agree that you shouldn't feel the trolls, sometimes I enjoy when the writers respond to them lol

Windows hasn't changed since 1995. It is designed for a desktop and all the worthwhile apps are also designed for mouse and keyboard. Windows on ARM isn't going to change that. Battery life might be a bit better, but performance will be worse than Intel machines. Both will probably be bad if you are running legacy software.

That's an amazing post. Everything you said was wrong! 

How?

Windows hasnt changed since 95? Really, have you used windows 95? From codebase to interface its completrely different. You're saying no "worthwhile" use touch, or you dont like to use them with touch. Have you opened the store recently, lots of popular apps. You also dont know MS has lots of experience writing JIT compilors for C# and other languages. Using that experience they're probably wont be much of a performance drop between arm and x86. See all wrong. 

I completely agree. I use the surface as a laptop on a desk exclusively. The only time I use it in tablet mode is when the keyboard doesn't detect properly. For what I use it for it's alright, but it isn't an iPad, it's still very much a Keyboard and mouse PC laptop in tablet clothing. Virtually nothing on it or windows 10 requires touch or is better for it. That said, while I'd like to switch to an iPad Pro, not being able to have say a webex while remotely accessing a server over Citrix is a deal breaker and I'd need to get a Macbook-MacBook Pro instead which is heavier at the pro end. I will probably grab a MBP eventually but I am actually curious how much of my workload I could get done on an iPad Pro.

You can buy a Citrix mouse or the switchpoint? Mouse and do exactly what you said. I know because I’ve done it with the Citrix one.  In the end I went back to a normal laptop as I do too much coding and the screen was a bit small on the 9.7. 

bleached is correct - without the tablet-centric apps, it doesn't matter what chip architecture Windows uses.  To say that Windows "hasn't changed since 1995" is obvious hyperbole, but his/her point still holds - no apps, no deal. 

Definitely hyperbole, but it really hasn't changed that much since '95. The basic are certainly the same.

"Basics" meaning the use of a mouse and keyboard to navigate and control running applications I guess?  If so, than Windows is no different in that regard than the competing desktop OSs. 

The start menu in the same place with the same functions. The windows themselves look very similar with the same actions in all the same places. Going from Windows 95 to Windows 10 would be natural. There are some cool new features like snapping windows, but it hasn't really changed that much at all. To denigrate iOS for not changing much in a decade doesn't make much sense on a Windows blog! No platform is more legacy than Windows.

Really, hasn't changed since '95. How about the switch to the NT kernel with XP or the underlying changes that Vista brought to the table by switching to the Server codebase or the touch oriented interface that Windows 8 brought with it. Hasn't changed since '95, don't make me laugh!!!!! I'll just add this, MacOS hasn't changed since System 1.0 or better yet iOS hasn't changed since iPhone OS 1.0!!

I get it. Surfaces are great devices, and I'm still using my surface 3. I've thought many times about buying a Surface Pro 4 and Surface Pro(2017). However, I don't need the bulk. I had work by each of my team members one for their jobs before I switched positions, I've held them, used them, and honestly quite enjoyed them. However, for what I use the surface for, a Pro model is overkill, large, and noisy. This is why I've held onto my Surface 3. Not because it is the best device out there, not because it is the lightest, sexiest, or the most amazing. The simple fact is that it runs full Windows 10, on a tablet device. I understand there are others out there now that do the same thing. These are, for the most part, competing in the same space as Surface Pro. The ones that fit the bill for a true tablet experience, (light, quite, sexy) are grossly underpowered. Bring in Windows 10 on ARM, and we will see the wonderful devices that Microsoft, Dell, HP can make. These are three inspired manufacturers. With the ability to put Windows 10 on ARM, I'm sure we will see these light, fanless, sexy designs with great screen and a great price. Powerful enough to use for multitasking, streaming, word processing, and convenient enough that they will be able to connect anywhere with LTE capabilities. Say what you will about Apple. Personally if Microsoft or its partners do not have a solution for what I'm looking for, I'll go with Apple before anything Android.

Why wouldn't you go Android? 

becuase it's a mess!......IOS is a much cleaner smoother OS.   

That's about it.

How is Android a mess?

The update system alone and fragmentation clinches it for me, the lack of tablet specific apps, the carrier and manufacturer bloat, the swift devaluation of hardware, lack of reliability, lack of support, Google spyware...I could go on. 

Surface Pro 4's are so much better than the 3...I'm not sure it's an apt comparison with the iPad Pro.

Pro 4 is everything I don't like about Pro 3. Bigger, average battery life, no cellular connection, FANS. iPad Pro hardware is perfect. I don't care if people hate the software, that's fine. What I'm saying is this is the kind of device I want to come from the likes of Dell, Lenovo, HP, hell, even Microsoft if they decide to make a Surface 4. Intel's low powered chips that have traditionally powered smaller devices are pretty poor by comparison to what we could be getting soon.

Errr, why are we NOT talking about ACTUAL models? The Surface Pro 2017 has a way better battery life than SP4, and there are powerful models (up to i5) WITHOUT fans. Since you are not doing much video or photo editing, you'll not need sustained high power, and an m3 would certainly be very good. ARM devices do not have more compute power per Watt (contrary to general belief), but they offer more interesting features, better cell connectivity and always on features. However, Apple is actually quite ahead with it's own processors, compared to the openly sourcable ARM brigade. So I wouldn't be too optimistic.

Why simply wouldn't u get the surface pro with lte/4G ?

The SP4 is a bit more powerful than the SP3, but that is really the only difference. They are identical otherwise. It isn't noticeably better at all.

I don't agree at all, I have access to S3 and S4 (own a S4), and the S4 is better across the board. Cooler running feel, better weight distribution, more vivid screen, better keyboard (Although you can get the same for S3), faster charge and a better pen. The S4 m3 has no fans, if that's what you find most disturbing. I found it so good at work that I bought one for home. It is an excellent device. The main benefit I think is that the surface has a dock that actually works. But yes, as a tablet it is a bit on the heavy side, but so is the iPad Pro to be honest, I prefer a proper reading device for reading. For anything else, the extra weight doesn't much matter because for anything but lengthy reading you don't really hold the device anyway. The iPad Pro 12" is actually wider, only 70 gram lighter and 1.5mm thinner (for the SIM model) and who wants an apple SIM? So it is a bit harsh to say it is beasti and bulky? Or do you compare to the 10.5" Pro? (For which I find the screen size way too small) The S4 is much better than the S3, so without trying it I think you give it an unfair judgement. The audio on the S4 is quite amazing, and envelops you. That said, I am intrigued to see what a surface device with built in cellular can do, and the battery life of a surface is slightly disappointing.

I have a SP3 and occasionally use a SP4. I find no difference in them. They are basically the same machine.

Full screen tablet mode experience whether on iPad or Windows I find to be too limiting for me. I love being able to use Windows on Windows with touch. Its perfect. And I especially love busting out that keyboard when I need it, and hanging it on the steering wheel when parked to work at the ocean. SP5, yes I call it the Surface Pro 5 because I find the naming scheme stupid withouth the #, at 75% brightness gives all day battery no problem. I wish I had waited for the Surface with cellular that is coming, but I could not wait for the battery life. The HP's of the world need to get this Win on Arm thing right, it will be THE killer device for those of us that want to use Windows on Windows, and not feel that limitation of full screen modes. And it needs to be $700 with keyboard. HP nailed the Spectre 360, when I saw the new Surface Laptop with no fold over keyboard, I was embarrased for the Surface team. That was not the form factor they had been pushing, and it was a step back.

Right there with you on tablet mode. I think it's garbage. iPad's split screen thing is OK in a pinch, but nothing more than that.

agreed.   windows trying to be a tablet OS is the same as IOS trying to be a desktop OS,  Just NOPE!

I am still skeptical of ARM's ability to power a desktop env.  Win10 is already a tad too slow for my tastes on Celerons.  IMO Windows 10 doesn't scale well to low perf CPUs.  It's like driving with a flat tire. I am very curious.  And Autumn will be awesome.

Yeah, I am thinking the same thing. It will years before ARM is worth it on Windows 10 machines.

Agreed, I think people have their hopes a little too high for what the 1st generation of these devices is actually going to be like.

My 950xl is my computer, so I totally get it. If I had full win 10 on arm and a bigger screen, 6.5" - 7" it would be 100% perfect for my needs.

MacOS sucks.

Agreed tearfalls

wahhhhhh fangirl crybaby downvotes...keep em coming...I love getting them.  shows how whiney the fangirls are in here when someone disagrees with microsoft on ANYTHING!  love it....the new color for the surface phone will be fangirl tears blue.....

The Apple vs. MS flame wars are childish.  tearfalls' comment was childish, as is your lame attempt at a retort.  You both should be rooting for capable competition.  With that, consumers win.  So please, grow up and stop this "mine's better than yours" rubbish.

I do...I own both os'ed devices....and compared to windows 10,  macOS is terrible.  

"If you want a desktop experience..."  This is KEY. One of the big reasons I love and use my iPad over the Surface is that I DON'T want the "desktop" experience. Frankly, I could care less about ARM, I was a good Windows tablet experience.

win10ARM really helps here for sure. It creates an independance from Intel who has limited Microsoft tablet aspirations for 15 years. For browsers/typers such as yourself Surface 3 would have been a better device than the SP3... too bad cellular version came late after the chipset had already died. You prefer the iPad but you purchased the wrong Surface (buyer mistake).

The only one limiting Microsoft's tablet experience in Microsoft.

This guy gets it. Intel did nothing.

Well, they did make a half hearted attempt with the Atom processor

I don't like the iPad Pro for one reason, Apple. This is the same company that publicly slated the Surface range as a "convoluted product" that "doesn't know what it wants to be" and then does the hypocritical thing of releasing their own version of it in the iPad Pro.  I personally have no issue with the article and it's nice to know that there are Apple users out there who see that Windows on ARM is a good thing.

Sounds familiar about what Balmer said about smart phones? Hah.

That's true but that's Ballmer for you, opens his mouth before engaging his brain.

neo FANBOYISM does not help you...trust me.   

You don't seem to understand the irony in this comment, do you!!!! Still, takes one to know one I suppose!!!!

No fanboy here.   I own products that use ios/macos, windows 10 (my main computing device, a dell 2 in 1),  linux, android, windows mobile..etc.  See...please..

I think that Windows 10 would have a better time if they enhanced the UI. The tiles are not a bad idea it's just how they are done. Every developer is trying to make theirs loud and stick out. They are chaotic, there's no uniformity. This introduces chaos. Often times I find myself pressing start with a goal in mind and I get distracted and have to think about what I wanted to do. A lot of people dislike the tiles. I often discuss on GSMarena with people and many just stick with windows 7 because the UI is ugly on 10. Granted I do like tiles but they need to be enhanced. A small example would be to force developers to leave space on all 4 sides and put their logo within those boundaries. And on the portion where there is space it would show the accent colour. You could also use transparency like on windows mobile etc. Or leave the tile accent colour mandatory and only put the white icons in but allow for colour. This way when transparency gets set you get a nice icon style design and without it you get the full tile experience. This already appeals to a larger group of people with such a simple change.

Can't Microsoft just copy Apple and let's move on 🚶

iPads are great to pick up and surf the web quickly, with the multitude of apps you can do things easier than on a surface machine.  I have a SP4 (SP2 before that) and I feel its about to be dropped, screen cracked and refund under extended warranty given :P  Then a normal laptop or wait to see what Windows on arm brings to the party.  All i need are Microsoft desktop apps and chrome for browsing (sorry but the extentions I use dont exist on Edge) with cellular and keyboard and touchscreen/pen.  2 days battery power would be amazing.  At the moment im eyeing a Lenovo X1 Yoga, but do i need to carry that much weight around if I dont need to? hmmmmm

Huawei Matebook E is basically an iPad Pro that runs Windows 10. It has an Intel Core Y processor so it's more powerful than an ARM device.

I have a new Surface Pro (2017). But one thing that I don't like about the Surface is the fact that it is a distracting machine in some respects. I mean, I enjoy it tremendously, but is so easy to Alt+Tab all over the place and multitask that it becomes problematic. Sometimes I just need to sit down and write and the very thing that is good about the Surface is actually bad about the Surface. There's something to tablets that only allow you to do one thing well at a time so you can focus. So I picked up a Galaxy Tab S3 with keyboard cover to mess around with. The difference in weight is astonishing compared to the Surface Pro especially when both have their keyboard covers on. The apps are all touch first which makes them more pleasurable to use in that format, and Android supports BT mice unlike iOS! I can pretty well take it wherever I go and be productive. It also supports a file system unlike iOS. But it is fairly pricey -- out the door with keyboard cover I ended up paying over $600. Still cheaper than an iPad Pro, but not by much. However, when I try to do split-screen then things start to fall down a bit compared to my Surface. So I don't know if I am going to keep the machine, because it is very expensive. I might just hold out and see what Windows on ARM does. My guess though is that the lack of touch friendly apps will be the stumbling problem once more. We don't even have a decent touch friendly Kindle app on Windows anymore! And I use the Kindle reader all the time on Android.

Yep.  Its awesome yet dissapointing at the same time.  With the Ipad,  you know exactly what your getting.  A consumption device.  with the surface,  you are expecting a productivity machine WITH consumption as well...just that it fails with the kicking back and relaxing part because of total lack of app support.  If Windows had all the apps that are on my ipad and iphone I would NEVER own an apple device.   BUUUUTTTT yet here we are!

What specific apps are you using on the iPad, besides Office apps, Photo and Video? Just wondering, because on a phone, I reckon that one might love a lot of apps. But on an iPad (or tablet that is), I wouldn't use even half of the apps I have on the phone.

I use texture which is non functioning on windows 10,  and they do not have a web useage app.  I also use pintrest (don't laugh i get alot of information about my bicycles, motorcycles, off road vehicles etc>),  Also I use various shopping apps that are not available on windows 10,  and not available via web platform as well.   so,  Yes I am.

Go find someone with a Surface 3. It's lighter, no fan noise, and has LTE (or can, just like iPads). It is a ful Windows machine and runs all that software, Win 32 and Store. It may not be quite as light as the iPad Pro, but it is far from beastly (a term I've rarely heard applied to the Surface Pro line). Go find someone with a Huawei Matebook, for that matter. No need to wait for WoA. These things may be a little slower than Surface Pros, or iPads running iPad apps, but if you think WoA is going to perform like an i7 with 16G RAM, you are very optimistic. I expect them to run about like my Surface 3, but likely get better battery life, and potentially handle connectivity more like my phone. That is, get connected standby right.

Has everyone forgotten about Windows RT -- the ARM version of Windows 8? I never used it, but from what I read, the biggest problem was lack of software.  You obviously can't run software compiled for x86/x64 on it.  And adoption where software vendors providing software was limited.  Why will Windows 10 ARM be any different?!?   I love ARM and I use a lot of ARM devices.  I have constructed my own ARM laptop.  How do I manage?  Because I run Debian Linux and Debian has repositories for binaries from a whole slew of different CPU platforms, including ARM.  When I move from a system running an Intel x64 process to an ARM system, 98% of the software is ready and running.  The other 2% of the software is provided by vendors who haven't adopted multi-architectures or providing their source to the repository for inclusion across platforms.   Since the majority of software for Windows falls in that 2% category, you'll find yourself limited to doing basic tasks like browsing or using Office on that Windows 10 ARM tablet until software vendors adopt it and start producting releases for it.  They'll be sure to get right onto that, like they did with Windows RT.

Windows on ARM will run x86 applications by translating them on the fly. In that respect it is very different from WinRT and is more like when OS X moved from PowerPC to Intel processors and Rosetta allowed you to run PPC apps on your Intel Mac.

Yup. And it's going to basically be running them in a virtual machine. Even if that VM is transparent to the user. I have run apps in Virtual Machines on both Windows and Mac. It's an absolute mess. Though I will reserve judgement until Windows 10 on ARM is fully released. But I am not holding my breath.

Assuming Intel doesn't sue Microsoft and Qualcomm first though.

This guy is blabbering..

I still use my SURFACE RT and I also use the Lumia 950XL for travel but if windows comes out with a Windows on ARM with long batery life and mobile conectivity i will buy it.

Not real bright comparing an iPad Pro with a Surface Pro 3.  Try comparing it with the latest Surface Pro (a 5th gen).  And don't forget all those Apple geniuses who said it was dumb to have a tablet with a keyboard and pen.  Then they turned around and copied MSFT

I use my ipad pro 9.7 every single night. For reading and browsing. I tried and returned a Surface Pro 4, an XPS 13 2-in-1, and an HP Spectre 2-in-1. I prefer windows over iOS for many things, which is why I tried the 2-in-1s. But they all sucked at being a portable. And I probably couldn't live with their compromises because I already have desktops at work and home that I use regularly. So for me, iPad fills the gap just fine. And for me, the main reason is iMessage and Facetime. Because family, friends, coworkers and I all use iPhone. You can knock us all you want. But Apple got us into their ecosystem for a reason, and it's because they have the best mobile experience, compromises and all. I would be using Mac for its unity with iOS too. If MacOS wasn't such a crap operating system.

How is MacOS crap? I find it rather excellent. I do enjoy Win10 as well though. Most of the people who don't like it seem to be the ones that have always used Windows and aren't used to MacOS. When you do get used to it it's really good. I'm not saying this is the case with you though. 

Personally I think the iPad Pro would have been more of a competitor to the Surface Pro if it was running MacOS, however Apple don't want it to eat into Macbook market share

I respect your preferences Richard, but if you don't care for the experience on a Surface Pro, I doubt very much that you will find Windows 10 on ARM to be a big leap forward. Hardware is only one part of the equation. I suspect, even if you won't admit it here, that there is more to your dislike of the Surface tablet experience than the hardware alone.  Besides, there is no evidenc (yet) that PC makers will build the Windows equivalent of an iPad.  Tablet sales are slowing generally, and I'm not sure that he iPad is the template that Microsoft's partners making Cellular PCs (ARM or Intel) will try to follow.  I suspect you'll first see ultrabook amd Surface-like 2-in1 form factors, not much smaller or lighter than existing devices, except they may offer a bit longer battery life in idealized conditions. (What happens to the battery when you start running a few emulated Win32 apps though?) Basically, I'm a skeptic that simply porting to a Qualcomm processor will fundamentally change the PC user experience. We shall see.  

I think you're right about Cellular PCs, I think manufacturers won't go the Tablet form factor with a Cellular connection but rather a phone form factor with a Continuum style mode for connecting to a dock to make it a full PC that can run x86 applications.

I bought the 10.5 iPad Pro (amazing device) about a month ago and tried to make a go of it as my only machine but it just isn't there yet. When they ditch the lightning port for a USB-C that can connect USB devices like external hard drives, audio recorders, etc, then these will be insane.  Only gripe is that you can't plug things into it meaning you need another computer which really lessens the appeal for the price point the iPad Pro is at. 

Richard, hade you tried The iOS 11 Beta? I noticed you didn't mention it in the article. I'm using it on my iPad Pro 10.5" (that 120hz screen is amazing), and it's really a step forward for iOS on iPad. It's still not a desktop OS, but it's a lot better than before :-)

So having the 4G saves your phone battery, but it costs you for another monthly carrier SIM. Great solution.

this reads more like an apple fanboy comment rather than a professionally written piece. the ipad is crap, just a blown up phone, perfect for the kiddies.

Perfect for far more people than you seem to realize.

He prepared a pre-rebuttal to Surface fans who might lament his choices.  How rich. Why not just say you want Windows 10 on an iPad.  We all know the whys and whats. The article would have been much shorter. You should be comparing the SP4 to the iPad Pro if we're going with generational equivalencies.  Of course the SP3 is going to lose against improvements made after it. You can compare iOS on iPad Pro to Windows on Surface from any number of measures, but the comparision would be completely relative based on the person as you so carefully pointed disclaimed.  Consider my extreme use requirement:  I manage data centers.  Imagine doing that with an iPad.  Imagine doing that with Windows 10 on an iPad. Nope.

Even if they get the Win-32 emulation down pat, it will still suck because Win32 apps were not made for touch, so yes you can sit down and mouse and keyboard it with the legacy apps, meanwhile, Adobe has updated Lightroom more and more to cover all the features of the desktop app that it is slowly depreciating. Microsoft really needs to figure this out, how can they get the devs to pay attention to them, instead of trying to leverage a legacy where they've always been badly looked at. I'm not excited at all for Windows on Arm. It has all that potential, but it doesn't have that mindshare that iOS has. I don't even use my Surface Pro 3 for the same reasons listed above. Been all iPad Pro and rarely on my Mac Mini. Trade in value for the SP3 pro is lower than iPads as well, so in the long run you kind of get more for going Apple than trying to keep pushing something with so much potential to work. It's all potential really.

That's true which is why I think Cellular PCs will be phones that can become a desktop if you need it.

Finally someone that gets it, windows 10 on ARM will bring windows to the thin and lightweight form factor of iOS and Android tablets, it's not gonna be targeted at putting full windows on a 5 or 6 inch phone. I use by Samsung Tab S2 far more often than my Surface Pro for the same reasons. That and the surface gets hot on the backside making it feel odd to hold.

I use iPad Mini 2. I purchased it to fly my DJI drone. But this iPad is also good for watching YouTube in bed instead on my phone which has a much smaller display. It's not as big as the Surface Pro I have and it's easier to hold it in your hands when in bed. It's also good for some mail checking using Microsoft Outlook app of course and for simple web browsing. Just the Safari stayed.And that's it. I uninstalled all of the Apple apps I could from this iPad and I even installed the SwiftKey keyboard instead of the Apple one. But for watching YouTube in the kitchen I prefer Surface Pro because it has a good stand and a bigger display. It's also more robust. I broke two of these iPads within 8 months or so because their build quality is so bad. I have no idea why they use aluminum. For some serious work you definitely need a keyboard, a mouse and a stylus. That's where I use Surface or my desktop PC with Windows 10 Pro installed on.

"For some serious work you definitely need a keyboard, a mouse and a stylus."
And this beginns quite early: Backup of holiday pics from the camera card to another USB device, a stick for instance is no problem with a Windows notebook. It seems to be nearly impossible with an iPad (I had problems finding the right adapters and even more problems finding a decent file manager in iOS) and is not that much better under Android. The mouse seems to be the most urgent need for a serious mobile device that can not only be used for media consumption.

Windows 10 on ARM is very important to us and for Microsoft

Absolutely agree! Windows 10 on ARM is indeed an exciting prospect. I'm a long-time Apple user myself, and I also have built myself a PC which I use almost daily. A few months ago, I got my hands on a little-used Surface RT (first gen) which I use for things like casual web browsing, working with Office (esp. OneNote), and watching YouTube. The build quality is what you would expect from a brand like Microsoft — really, really good. Also, the device works fine despite its age and still looks cool as heck. Now I am super excited for Microsoft's future plans for Windows on ARM. I'm not quite ready to invest iPad Pro/Surface Pro amounts of money in such a purchase just yet, however, if a small-size, entry-level device is released by Microsoft or an OEM which is good at tablets (say, Samsung) in the near future, I would be more than willing to buy one.

wow . why is this article here at all? go back to mac central where u belong. ive had the ipads, and they sure dont impress me.  if you are so stuck with the idea that everything should be like appledevices , or with them as a rolemodel, you are out of touch with the business and should probably reconsider youre line of work. we dont need windows 10 on arm as much as MS needs to be there for the next big thing, and they need to get a sizeable headstart because of fanboys like you throwing their money after apple to try and be cool. news flash, Apple are not inventing anymore, they are at best copycats with a so loyal fanbase that whatever they release gets a momentum enough for them to make atleast some money. the joke is on their users supporting their greed....   

Curious about what added functionality full windows brings to this form factor. Beyond mouse support (imagine a haptic feedback mouse with iOS, would be nice) what else do you want to do with the device? If you say word process & watch Netflix it already does that... I guess what I'm getting at is that right now you've chosen more convenient hardware & form factor over the OS/software you prefer. If the OS changes, what can you do with a 10inch tablet that you couldn't do before?

All the software is more powerful, multi-tabs, power user software, productivity software, full desktop games, deeper OS options and access. Basically everything. Unless you like simple software, and have basic needs, but even then the browser on a desktop OS is better, the music softare and video software is better etc. 

So you'll be gaming and running Photoshop on your 9.7 inch tablet? With a Snapdragon processor that's basically good for fruit ninja? Generally touch based devices are best suited for simple tasks, no? As much as the authors and commenters on this site seem jazzed for windows 10 on ARM, no one seems to offer ideas on specifics as to why it'll be the best thing ever. This entire article is about how great windows 10 would be on iPad hardware & the only reason given is because there'd be mouse support...

I can't justify paying so much for a device with such a gimped operating system. No one should have to pay more for less.

I stand by my rant since w10m launch, make a continuum tab with 1080, touch, keyboard, no SoC, just display and big batter so I can connect my 950 to it wire or wireless(like HP lapdock).  I be happy to pay $300 for it.   

You can buy a fully functional tablet for less. What would the point of that device be?

Many reasons, for starter full W10 "isn't the best" in touch/tab format w10m is much more touch friendly.  w10m keyboard MILES better than w10 on screen kb.  I don't have to login to 2 devices, you know login my laptop with my 15 char pw isn't fun.  instead on.  I don't have to pickup the phone to reply msg.  don't have to worry the tab got stole.  I can mount the tab in the car as big GPS or music player.  I can keep going but you get the point.

That doesn't explain why your phone would have anything to do with it. Why can't it be a standalone device? What is the point of tether your phone when the cloud makes your data ubiquitous?

I'm not an Apple hater because it's not Microsoft. I'm an Apple hater because Apple takes off all VPN software from the Chinese app store the minute China asks for it. True, China was going to force them to do so, but before that, Apple went out of their way to accomodate the Chinese govt. and did more that they were asked for, just so as not to displease them. If Windows or Android are forced to stop selling VPN software, there are plenty third party sources; Apple makes sure this is impossible on their products. Apple is a dictator, a tyrant and they limit the user in what they can and can't see/hear, and they gladly co-operate with undemocratic regimes if it brings in some bucks.. Even if the iPad Pro is better than anything else on the market, even if the iTunes app store is full of handy apps, it's still a business model that sucks. It must control not only the apps but also the content, the peripherals and whatnot. I will never buy anything from Apple. Hell, I wouldn't take it if it were free. 

I've been thinking about this since Microsoft announced Windows 10 on ARM. It would be great if Apple brought Boot Camp to iOS.

The Safari experience on iPad Pro is frustrating to say the least. Especially now that Marketing/advertising has hobbled many sites now. Especially video advertising. I can't see how Win10 on ARM will be any better performance wise. Unless discrete gfx is employed. Only time will tell.

My thoughts? The iPad Pro is a joke. So this article doesn't really hold.

Personally, I can't stand the iPad or Surface Pro and considering the writers argument, it only makes sense to buy an ultrabook. No fan, super long lasting battery, Touch support, full Windows, real keyboard, mouse support, the list goes on. Sure they're a little heavier but if you're not watching Netflix or reading Kindle books, how does it matter? As a writer myself, I personally can't see how it would ever be better to own an iPad over an ultrabook.

i couldn't disagree with you more regarding the surface. Since I got my SP4, I haven't touched my ipad. it's like a toy now.

Ummmm, OK.    The SP4 I have can run a full OS. iOS is based off a mobile OS. ARM will also run it too! don't see why this is even an article! 

You might not see the value in this article but others will.  It is a very well written opinion article on how one person is able to cope with multiple devices and at what extent is one willing to take the right device with them.  I travel frequently myself and I like to have the ultimate portable device with me that can turn on in mere nanoseconds.  That device is something you seem to have a problem with, but it is an Apple iPad.    I had a Surface 3, basic Atom base unit but it is was too slow and got overwhelmed with the smallest of tasks.  I am someone that is not willing to wait seconds for something to boot up when my ipad can basically be ready instantly.   Microsoft also did a great job with the mobile versions of their apps on the iPad devices which makes typing up documents universal on all platforms.   Will there ever be a time when I need something more powerful to do work off site - yes - sure one day - but for now - I am content just like this author that the iPad is a good compromise for now.   I look forward to when Microsoft brings back Windows RT OS for a slim downed OS.

How about changing Windows Central to Device Central or this Central, or WinAppDroid Central

I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying this.  But last year I traded in my MacBook for a Chromebook and recently upgraded to the Samsung Chromebook Pro.  A fantastic, light device with an absolutely gorgeous screen, all day battery life and stylus.  It does everything I need a laptop to do and doubles as a tablet.  A really great device if you can do without Windows desktop applications.  J

Chromebooks are great!!! The beauty of all these different systems is that they work for different people. There's not a one size fits all in tech right now. We are all different but, some people expect everyone to be in love with whatever they themselves use. Use what works for you. All these different companies can learn from their competitors...

After three years with an 8" windows tablet, I've found the problem is that full windows applications are a pain on a small screen with no mouse, and there are few quality touch suitable apps available (those that are often lack features that their ios and android versions have).  Add to this the amount of space the OS takes up, and I think I'd prefer a more mobile experience.

I've been using a cherry trail 9.7 inch windows tablet for quite a while. It's not a hybrid, but its probably lighter than the ipad pro. I actually wouldn't mind if it was a tad smaller and lighter. Like say 9.4 inches or even 9 inches. Thing I love about tablets is the casual useage. Always on LTE would be a game changer. And I am really looking forward to the boost WoA will give UWP, being those apps run native (faster) and take advantage of toast/always on LTE, gps, touch and so on. I'll definately be down for some windows on arm, and I am keen to see what people do with it. I am expecting some creative form factors that go beyond what we have today. Mini pocketable laptops, dual screens, super thin 360s and laptops. I'd love to see a 9.-9.5 inch hybrid, for that ultimate portability combined with the LTE - so I can easily stuff it in a light sholder bag, or even jacket pocket and weild it around the home with one hand and the other for flipping comic pages etc. Desktop windows apps, scaled up, make perfect sense atm from about 9 inches or 8.9 and up. 8 is really only for UWP at this stage (although more UWP is inevitable). So for now, I think somewhere 9-10 is the perfect size, especially with an LTE device, for that "go anywhere easy casual holding" feel. Given how thin snapdragon can be made, i'd love to see a larger 9.4, 9.5 made one hand useable, specially with a good stylus implementation. 

I don't think that surface devices are no competition because if their size. Sure, they are still bigger than an iPad, but one of the main reasons they simply do not work as good is windows 10 itself. Microsoft is on a good way with Windows 10, I'm, but the OS still needs some polishing get so that it can be used as a pure entertainment device. Right now at least I forgive it it's flaws as it offers me a full desktop experience in return, but I would never buy a surface only for content consumption, because as of right now it simply is outclassed by iOS and Android in that regard.   Just to back up what I am saying, picture this scenario: when you are browsing YouTube using an iOS or Android device you get tpuch-friendly video controls. On Windows 10 however you don't, which makes it quite the frustrating experience. 

iOS is not really a mobile OS. I believe it is a stripped down verion of macOS. If there will ever be a need iOS could handle more complicated tasks.

Comparing a 3 generations old Surface with the iPad Pro... interesting.

Gues we have to wait for WoA for a head to head!

I understand we have users who love windows no matter what, same goes with Apple and android. But we don't rule the mobile and overall tech market. Consumers like your brother, sister, parents or friends all over the world who have other interest apart from technology, are the one who will buy this devices in numbers than us.
Most of them don't require complicated software and most of them will just need Word or Excel, print and social media, I believe this is why devices like the iPad is ruling in this category. However for a number of people ie, medical, lawyers, programmers, accountants, creators, execs or managers use software that have complicated features need a device which can handle both mobile apps and desktop apps which in my case is the surface. I have both the iPad pro and surface 4 and been a programmer and content create I decided the surface is my preferred all in one device however comparing it with the iPad pro I do which it was lighter and yes same or even better battery life with 4G integrated and less/no heat and fan noise but again remember the iOS is no where a full powerful OS than Windows 10 maybe this is why Apple is hesitant to put Mac OS on the iPad.

No Crapple product comes close to a Surface. Crapple hasn't even figured out how to put an SD card slot or wireless charging on their phones, or touch screens on their CrapBooks.

For what I like to do the Windows 10 store and regular PC Programs are OK with me. I never bought a tablet. if I did it would be a Windows 10 PC Tablet not an Apple ipad or Android tablet. Windows 10 on ARMS CPU devices are supposed to be on sale October to December this year. It will be interesting to see how small and light these devices will be. I think even Microsoft will have one for sale. It could be a dual screen type Tablet.. I think Microsoft will introduce it and the new Surface Book in October 2017.