Why the Windows 10 on ARM haters are all wrong (video)

One of the reasons I got into this job is it's incredible to see all the new technology come to market, attempts at solving problems, or just making life more fun. But lately, I've seen an irrational push against Windows 10 on ARM that just doesn't make any sense for supposed real fans of PC computing.

If you ever looked at Windows 10 on ARM, saw the negatives and decided it's not for you, congratulations you just made a personal purchasing decision. That's more than OK as you should be judging each product based on your expectations, wallet, needs, and wants.

Oh, I'm sorry, does this Ockel Sirius A Pro disrupt your delicate world view of what a PC is? Too bad.

Oh, I'm sorry, does this Ockel Sirius A Pro disrupt your delicate world view of what a PC is? Too bad.

But if you're really a fan of Windows PCs, you should not be against Windows 10 on ARM.

Being a PC user is about choice. Pick your screen, amount of RAM, processor, looks, graphics card, etc. We don't let anyone dictate to us what a PC is or who should be using it. Do you want to rock a 15-inch gaming PC in the office? You do you. You think dropping $800 on a gaming PC for your pocket is a wise investment? Go for it.

PC fans should be rooting for Intel, Qualcomm, AMD, NVIDIA, and anyone else making hardware. You should want Dell, HP, Lenovo, MSI, Acer, and ASUS all to do well. The more competition, the more ingenuity, and the better our products are in the end.

This $800 GPD Win2 doesn't really look like a traditional PC - guess no one would ever want it.

This $800 GPD Win2 doesn't really look like a traditional PC - guess no one would ever want it.

If you don't like the performance or limitations of ARM how about directing some of that towards Intel? Why can't they make a chip that gets 15 hours of battery life, has instant on, doesn't get hot, and has LTE built in? On what planet would you ever reject having that feature set in any PC?

Criticism is warranted – like for any technology you purchase. But being too slow or too expensive are temporary and solvable problems for ARM, not fundamental flaws. I want a Tesla electric car, but it's too costly. Too bad. I'll wait until the price comes down and not, you know, rail against the car manufacturer becaue the pricing is inconvienent.

Windows 10 on ARM is just another choice for consumers and business on the market. It not being for you is fine, but at least acknowledge that you can imagine some humans on this planet wanting all its abilities.

If not, you're not really into PCs. You're into your version of what a PC should be, and that makes you more aligned with Apple than Windows. Congratulations.

Daniel Rubino

Daniel Rubino is the Editor-in-chief of Windows Central, head reviewer, podcast co-host, and analyst. He has been covering Microsoft since 2007 when this site was called WMExperts (and later Windows Phone Central). His interests include Windows, laptops, next-gen computing, and for some reason, watches. Before all this tech stuff, he worked on a Ph.D. in linguistics, watched people sleep (for medical purposes!), and ran the projectors at movie theaters because it was fun.

  • Wow. Did something happen during the podcast??
  • This video was shot days ago, so, no?
  • Oh okay lol. I missed the podcast, was buried deep with work.
  • Idiots will always be idiots. Windows + ARM is a mouth watering option. Why whinge about more options?
  • This is a straw man. No one is complaining about more options. All the critiscism I have seen is regarding the price. $1000 is too much for its Atom performance and limited compatibility. LTE, keyboard and a pen doesn't make up for it, not even close. If Microsoft wants this to become a viable platform, they need to get as many as they can in people's hands. $1000 price tags for $250 performance is detrimental to the brand.
  • That's the problem. People are using the CPU power as the main value metric. This value in this, is the battery life.
    To quote The Verge "The price is high for a small notebook, but reasonable if HP can deliver on its battery life and connectivity promises." You're not supposed to be comparing this to an Arm tablet, with no keyboard, no stylus. Nor a traditional notebook for 5-8 hours battery life.
  • Your aren't supposed to compare an ARM tablet to an ARM tablet?
  • You cannot leave a intel powered NB in your bag and use it as a pocket WiFi do you?
  • That is what phones are for. Why would you ever want to do that with your laptop?
  • If you have your notebook in a bag, what are you using its pocket WiFi for? Another notebook?
  • Daniel, you hit that one out of the park man. Nice work.
  • I agree the more competition in the cpu market the better for all.
  • Yes, but Acorn computers came first. PCs are the new competition. Why does a proper Acorn have to be called a PC? I prefer to recognise that these boxes are Archimedes Mk 2 at heart. They were fantastic Mk 1 machines, and these new CPUs build on that. Not on PCs. Wrong DNA to get saddled with that label. The first windows based OS was designed and released by Sir Clive on the Sinclair QL (and was 'invented' afterwards by Apple of course...). The ZX Spectrum Next is coming out soon. PCs are just a fad, and MS see the need to branch out.
  • Nope. Fact Acorn and X86 born in the same year 1978. If you’re gonna make a point - at least get your facts straight
  • Also. If you think PCs are a fad then your really aren’t well placed to be a commentator or commentor on the computing industry
  • Ockel Sirius A Pro 😍
  • I would love one of those with an SD850 and LTE
  • ^ That !
    SD850 + LTE + a telephony stack, and you've got a perfect product ^^
  • Just the efficiency alone. Do people not have multiple devices? I have a huge power laptop but also a low end 2 in one latest gen atom PC when I need to work on the go. If qualcomm can rival Intel in this space I would switch right now because atom is a bummer....
  • Exactly. I have 4 notebooks of various sizes, a MacBook 13 with Linux on it because macOS blows and a bunch of phones and 3 iPads. All of them do things differently.
  • The one thing Windows on ARM will definitely do is take away true choice. True choice in RAM, CPU, storage, screen combinations as OEM force their overpriced configs on users in the name of "innovation". Not very "right' IMO.
  • Sooo will intel, amd and nvidia go poof and disappear along with all products they made? 🤣
  • ARM's ecosystem is a utopia compared to Intel single-supplier, dominated x86 duopoly that every OEM hates and leaving for good.
  • Do you ever listen to yourself? Maybe reread what you typed a day or two later?
    You definitely got the AR (alternate reality) working though.
  • Feel so sorry for you that you haven't realized your autism spectrum disorder yet. Get a good vaccination lawyer you're entitled to compensation.
  • Wow the manner of some people.
  • > Take away true choice
    That pretty much applies to all NB and prebuild desktops no? But pros and cons. With a custom build desktops... every user has their own unique problem every now and then...
    Why do you think fans of different card makers bashing each other over which $500 card scxks, crashes more? They all have to score a 100 on their QA test right? Why do you think my brother's 3yo gaming rig needs 2 power-button-press to boot into Windows? first press will lead to shutdown, 2nd press can finally take you to Windows. Xbox for example. HW/OS maker, 3rd party dev, 2nd party dev, 1st party dev, consumers, everyone with no exception, use/run the very same combinations of HW + SW + OS + driver + background services. You problem is dev's problem, you software issue is everyone's issue. Much easier for devs to reproduce the bugs you encountered.
  • My office insists on 15 inch gaming PCs for our desks as standard. :D
  • I was never against Windows on Arm. I loved my Nokia 2520 Tablet w/ Windows 8 RT. Hated in when Microsoft decided they were against Windows on Arm and left my perfectly good, recently purchased tablet orphaned. Could have permitted me to put on Windows 10 Mobile just like my Nokia 1520 which was essentially the same device down to architecture, storage, memory, cpu speed, screen pixels, etc.... But no... Microsoft hated supporting those who embraced Windows on Arm. But now it's fashionable to be revisionist and pretend that Microsoft's failure to stay the course hasn't burned their user base before.... They just better commit for real to the Windows on Arm effort this time around.....
  • Talk about revisionist history. While the 2520 was (a specialized version of) Windows running on (a specific) ARM processor, it's miles away from what "Windows On Arm" means as an initiative. The two have little in common, and the failure of the first was largely due to it not being the latter.
  • Well, if what you say is true, than it shouldn't be too difficult for Microsoft to bring out a version of Windows 10 ARM for the Nokia 2520. Our for their own Surface RT 2. Let's have it!
  • Windows on ARM is a 64 bit OS, which will not run on 32 bit CPUs like in the Nokia 2520.
  • Strawman?
  • Well tbh these comments are not really uncalled for. From consumer point of view, when you spend this much on your computing device (mind you ARM devices ain't cheap themselves), you want it to cover most of your needs and not just a subset of them. Unfortunately, with app gap on windows store, ARM PCs doesn't even serve a consumption purpose since that social media app, that media app, that game, that utility and service app you are looking for is either missing entirely or missing features. And those real programs that should at least come with a PC will have compatibility issues. So, you have to admit these devices really are the worst of both worlds. For the moment.
    Obviously, I agree with the advantages that ARM bring to the table and has been vouching for it since forever. And my biggest critique against Microsoft for discontinuing windows mobile/RT is solely because how it hurt ARM prospects on both platform and apps front. Even now Microsoft is not really pushing ARM, it's more of Qualcomm's effort to get into that PC space.
    If you look at competition, both iOS and android have at least app ecosystem but they both lack real programs on ARM just like Microsoft. And yet, they keep on pushing iPads and Chromebooks as real PCs and what do you know, rumors are full Photoshop experience is coming to iPad. How long before they port their proprietary final cut editor to iPad/iOS? It already has Microsoft's suit of productivity apps. With full Photoshop coming, will this be the trend for real professional programs? Will they all come to iPad/iOS? Or even worse, android/chromeOS based Chromebooks running ARM? Where will things stand then for Microsoft?
    And I get the competition narrative. And battery advantages. But Microsoft really should do more on ARM front. So, do their partners. Particularly the ones which make professional real programs. Only then will these devices stop being useless for consumers such as us.
  • Microsoft is 100% behind ARM in PC's, IoT, mobile and even investing billions in ARM and other non-x86 server architecture.
  • Then where is the ARM Surface Go? Not using thier new tablet platform on their tablet is quite the statement, it isn't a statement of 100% support.
  • I don't see the commitment from Microsoft for ARM. They were more committed with Windows RT, going so far to make 2 generations of ARM Surface tablets. But since then, Microsoft's ARM efforts feel half hearted and they don't even bother making 1st part devices anymore for ARM. The Surface Go is further evidence that Microsoft lacks commitment to ARM.
  • The reason the Go uses an Intel processor is because it is predominantly marketed for the education department to rival Chromebooks, which will still be looking for win32 programs to run flawlessly and not emulated. An ARM system is good for the general consumer, but for a school student (or its IT department) an ARM device would cause a lot of downtime in hassle because of the emulated win32 alone. If there is enough interest in an ARM version in the future, MS might invest in making that for consumers, but currently they are focused on a system that performs well in all fields. I don't hate Windows 10 on ARM, but it's still too half baked, and like Andromeda, MS probably thinks a Go running ARM would taint the Surface brand with a level of imperfection that isn't tolerable at the present time.
  • Education departments are choosing Chromebooks yet they need x86? That didn't make when Microsoft said it and it doesn't make sense now. There is no reason they couldn't make both. Getting a reference device out there and showing that they are serious about WoA would be great for the platform.
  • I blame developers and the one sided view that it's all on Microsoft, these types of comments and misconceptions are part and parcel of it...
  • If you had read my comment till the end, you would have known I am urging both Microsoft and their partners (by which I meant win32 professional software developers) to do more on this front.
    Also, you seemed to have missed my critique on Microsoft entirely. Yes they aimed at ARM with Windows RT and Windows Phone 8. But we know that both the platforms weren't really complete and had severe limitations to what was Microsoft's then end goal of unifying their OS and app platforms. App development platform of both Windows Phone 8 and Windows RT was in the process of merging to develop single unified code development platform for apps scaleable across all screen types and device categories. Speaking of Windows RT in particular, it had limitations to some of the enterprise related stuff, didn't have an option of legacy compatibility. And yes, developers did let them down in filling the Windows Store with apps for this new paradigm. At that point, it wasn't really Microsoft's fault. But then came Windows 10 and with it some of the set pieces that Microsoft were developing for years had been placed. They unified the Onecore across their PC and mobile OS platforms. Had a unified app development program dubbed UWP for all device categories like PCs (including tablets and 2in1s), Mobile, Hub, XBox. Corrected the wrongs of Windows 8 in bringing a UI balancing all kind of interaction methods of mouse, keyboard, pen, touch, XBox wireless controller. Most of their core apps had been rewritten through UWP including Office mobile, calculator, alarms, settings, photos, people, skype, messaging, one drive, phone, outlook mail and calendar, weather, sports, news, groove music, movies and tv, windows store and so on. They forked Internet Explorer to develop all new Edge web rendering engine and platform to more suit the needs of modern web demands. They had continuum mode to scale phone OS for big screen and between PC and Tablet modes on 2in1s. They also had at that point emulation layer for Win32 in place.
    So after years of working on this, what do they do? They kill their phone hardware division though admittedly that Nokia acquisition was losing them too much money. They kill development of windows 10 mobile. They didn't give an upgrade path to Windows RT based original Surface devices which knowing all this information could have been done. Switched to x86 completely for their Surface hardware and still reluctant to build a Surface device running ARM. And that my friend is my critique against Microsoft. They quit the path they had been on for some years in favour of saving their existing assets. And I know being a business, it wasn't a bad decision from share holders point of view. But that my friends is not how you innovate. You have to take some risks and have some resilience. The sad part is it all happened when all the peices were in place and I feel they were this close to winning developers and consumers. If only they had shown some resilience. Oh well.
    All is not bad despite everything. Luckily neither iOS nor Android are anywhere near taking all of the computing software ecosystem pie. So let's hope that these Always Connected PCs category will finally attract the attention of PC software developers and consumers and that Microsoft will hopefully be the first one to bring that real PC software (read legacy software) to ARM and Windows store ahead of iOS and android/chromeOS.
    As always, thanks for reading my take on how Microsoft abandoned their One Windows vision and advertently put Windows on ARM initiative on a break.
  • That's the thing though, why would developers want to invest in porting apps to Windows On ARM? That costs money and resources for what will essentially be little to no return. It's already hard enough to get developers to make UWP apps, now you want them to go a step further and do ARM? Sure you could say porting to ARM is easy, but that's not the way software dev works. Aside from the porting job, a lot of testing and QA needs to be done, and if there's an issue, the whole process starts over. Costs time and money.
  • Are you a developer? I will still answer your question even if it was a rhetorical one. But I need to understand where you are coming from.
  • Well put. So far the ARM devices have been no cheaper, and their only advantage is a bit of battery life. With compatibility issues and Microsoft's track-record on supporting their new initiatives, I will not be recommending WoA to anyone (yet). edit: @MediaCastleX can't expect developers to spend money to make less money, or with tools that are either worse or simply very different from competition. It's also up to MS to prove their tech by using it themselves; why would anyone use Xamarin (for example), if MS itself doesn't (we actually do use Xamarin for some of our projects).
  • MS also doesn't seem to want to make things easy: https://pete.akeo.ie/2017/05/compiling-desktop-arm-applications-with.html
  • I hate the invidious comparisons of different hardware and OS systems. Dissing one does not make any of the others better. I want people to buy what they want and then mind their own business.
  • As Daniel said at the top of the page - a large and compelling part of IT is it's periodic reinvention of itself. I've been fortunate to be on this ride for close to 40 years and have seen the entirety of the "personal" aspect of the PC revolution, from both vocational as well as avocational aspects. To be sure, angst, uncertainty, confusion, "holy" wars, and even feelings of betrayal are all part of the really big changes that come about - it's part of the price of admission to this ride. Few people like to see sausage being made, but the end result is great, for many of us at least. I suspect the same is true for tofu. Anyway, everyone take some deep breaths, tighten the seatbelt a little, find a focus point on the horizon (or close your eyes). This ride has been, and will be, going around for a few turns. It's pretty much up to you if it's going to be a ferris wheel or a tilt-a-whirl....
  • Good reply. Yep, there is a sea change in PC's and all computing in general. Smart people embrace inevitable change and feel good about it. ARM CPU's outsell x86 CPU's 18 billion to 800 million annually. 2020 ARM will be outselling x86 50:1 due to IoT and mobile growth.
  • Exactly why Microsoft needs to get WoA affordable and in people's hands today. This is a straw man Daniel is cutting down. No one would have an issue with WoA if the price was reasonable for the performance and capability of the machines.
  • Couldn't agree more.
  • Tilt a whirl for me. A much better ride than a boring old Ferris wheel.
  • One question I have is: Isn't the limiting form of ARM x86? When ARM chips finally become as powerful or capable as x86 chips, won't they consume just the same amount of power as x86 today? So aren't we back to square one then???
  • The architecture is of later design. ARM chips are not simply x86 chips by another name. I think they are designed around different power assumptions.
  • Good question. Answer: ARM is a modern RISC ISA (reduced instruction set architecture) that is inherently more power efficient than x86 which is 40 year-old CISC ISA w/ bloated legacy overhead. ARM is a superior manufacturing and supplier situation than Intel's TMG single-supplier dominated x86 duopoly. Every aspect of ARM is superior to Intel x86.
  • x86 CPUs are RISC inside anyway, and while x86 contains some unused cruft, the more complex instructions also provide better performance. There is a reason ARM sticks mostly to sub-15W CPUs (some server CPUs might draw more).
  • The reason for ARM not having 15W CPUs is purely driven by market demand. There is no technical reason behind it. And still with todays ARM cores you could produce a 16 core machine in the 15W TDP range if you want to.
    See, a single ARM core like the latest Cortex A75 and Cortex A76 even when running at close to 3GHz consumes less than 1W.
  • One would think there would demand in servers, but my understanding (I'm not a server guy) is that Intel (and now probably AMD too) still dominates there, even though I could see low powered ARM CPUs doing great in IO-limited tasks, but then they would have to increase IO, which raises power requirements.
  • Just take the latest Windows on ARM devices as example. They actually have higher performance at the same power. Higher efficiency does not only mean lower power at same performance but also higher performance at the same power.
    So if you take the HP Envy X2 as example and run a performance demanding application like say raytracing or likes of compression algorithms it will easily outperform any Intel device at <5W power.
  • ARM is the future plain and simple. Idiots hate/fear change.
  • That's funny, I remember back in the 80's when ARM first came out, it was supposed to be the future, just like how later in the 90's, Linux would overtake Windows in desktop computers. Neither has ever happened. ARM, found it's place in low power mobile computing. But it has as much influence on higher end devices as Linux does on desktops. Intel and AMD aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
  • Intel and AMD will not go away, but IOT (cashier, surveillance, robot, water meter, smart city projects, arcade cabinet, etc), AR, MR, some NB (big or small) will use ARM.
  • The next XBOX and PS5 will have AMD/NVDA SoC's w/ ARM-based CPU's. PS5 will have an ARM-based portable spin-off and Microsoft will have an ARM-based stream portable.
  • any sources for that?
  • Given Nvidia's past practises, I do not see Nvidia working with AMD. Then again, who knows - as pretty much everyone didn't see Intel and AMD working together publicly on a product combing engineering knowledge.
  • Why is ARM the future? It has yet to prove itself in high end computing devices yet. Plus Microsoft and Sony have deals with AMD for their chips. I guarantee you they get discounts for buying both CPU and GPU from AMD. You also act like ARM is some brand new next gen architecture when it's actually literally just as old as x86 is.
  • I agree that if anyone needs to be badmouthed it's Intel. MS has responded bravely to the existential threat of mobile, copping a ton of flak for taking their customers on a twisty roadmap journey with lots of pivots and dead ends. Intel on the other hand seems to have settled into a siege mentality, retreating as slowly as they can while distracting everyone with pointless reference architectures along the way. Surely time to throw the dice and poach an army of RISC gurus to get back in the game?
  • Not the first time Intel's lack of execution has been an anchor around Microsoft's neck: Windows Vista video driver model certification and Intel's 915 graphics chipset.
  • I wish it were that easy for entrepreneurs/businesses/hw makers/etc to spin up devices. As one trying to hold on to the WP8/W10M days of past, I am sitting in a sea of laptops, 8"+ tablets, and many other devices that are never going to replace my Windows mobile phone that will soon be deprecated. I agree with you Dan. Bring it on! I say let QC bring to the table what they can. Maybe AMD or others will see something here and we can soon migrate from our Windows phones to newer capable devices. Granted we may never see another Windows mobile phone like we knew them, but at this point a device of a smaller form factor than 8" that can use LTE/phone calls/sms&mms is warranted.
  • Ok, what a load of nonsense.
    Windows 10 ARM is dead on arrival because of the Windows app store. Don't know if you've been there lately, but it's pretty empty in there.
    Without sufficient support of developers and a decently filled app store, W10ARM is going to be just as big a failure as Windows RT and Windows Phone/Mobile were. Maybe you have forgotten those, but we sure haven't!
  • If this would be the case and your prediction is true, then Windows will fail as well - because everything outside Windows will go ARM and will have a performance/power ratio not achievable on Windows devices.
    The best bet for Windows to survive is embracing ARM.
  • Yes windows will die under Nadella
  • I think 30 billion dollars disagrees with you.
  • I don't think that's necessarily true. For desktop computing, performance is more important than power consumption. And on the mobile end like with laptops, WoA laptops haven't proven themselves to have significantly better battery life. Only like 10-20% better battery life for almost 2-3x the cost of a comparable performing x86 laptop. Intel's Atom and Core M line of processors had very comparable TDP's as ARM. It's not like Intel and AMD will just sit idly by and never innovate their low power designs further to compete.
  • The moment you need an editorial piece of trash to explain the existence of a device category to your own fans is about five hours after you realized you have a failed device idea and should cut your losses, but still need some freaks to buy what you have produced.
  • Why the hate? Don't you like choice? Or is this just a panic reaction, due to you realising your conservative computing world is destined to change?
  • It's not hate, it's reservations. Everyone remembers Windows RT and Microsoft's commitment to ARM devices in the past. The writing is on the wall and Microsoft has yet to succeed with ARM devices because they lack commitment to it.
  • Yup I remember an article similar to this when W10M came out.
  • I am not Win on ARM hater. I would like it to succeed. However, I am hater of the way that Microsoft launches the products. You have mentioned Apple, but they do it right - they let everyone knew that PPC is dead and Intel is the future. So every software company HAD to recompile to Intel. However Microsoft is on the stand 'let the market decide what is the best'. And market doesn't like uncertainties. So market will run away from the new and unsupported technology. It simply doesn't stand a chance. So they need either to launch some devices that will work only on ARM and that will be popular (and that makes sense for some very small devices of the phone like size as Intel simply can't work as well), or to wait for one more experiment to die.
  • Good point! But MS problem is that their PC ecosystem is vastly greater than Apple's was/is. And it's become this popular due to MS supporting legacy software for such a long period, so their customers come to expect that.
    MS declaring x86 dead, would certainly kickstart ARM development for Windows, but it would damage their reputation enormously ( killing of Windows phone/mobile is a tiny firecracker compared to this nuke). So MS is doing it slow and safe by offering x86 emulation on ARM in the meantime.
    Of course this means most Devs won't start recompiling their software to ARM until ARM CPU's actually become more powerful than x86 CPU's or their benefits make up for their lack of computing power.
    The most important thing for MS to do now is to show they are committed to ARM this time around and that Windows on ARM is going to be a long term platform with incremental future improvements rather than a complete reboot every other year.
  • As said I don't expect to declare Intel dead. But I do expect that they need to tell why ARM is here to stay. So launching some devices that are going to stick and that can't work with Intel processors is key right now. Otherwise whole the effort is simply a waste of time. Maybe it would be only useful to push Intel to catch up with ARM quicker.
  • You cannot possibly catch up with the x86 architecture - does not matter if you push Intel. A modern architecture like ARMv8 will always be much better.
  • I am not a CPU hardware expert (and as far as I can see you aren't either). However, 10 or more years ago I have read how some highly positioned person in AMD explains that it doesn't make sense to go Itanium (non-x86 way) as the additional logic to build a modern processor on top of x86 takes less than 1% of the silicone. I would assume that now it is so small percentage that it can't be even described.
  • ARM isn't some new next gen architecture. It's a 33 year old architecture, about as old as x86 first of all. Second, both Intel and AMD are constantly improving the architecture just like ARM is. With ARM v8 being the latest, we have Coffee Lake from Intel and Ryzen from AMD being their latest. You really thought Intel and AMD were still using the same architecture from the 80's?
  • Well said Daniel! I'll still be using an x86 based desktop for gaming and productivity, for the foreseeable future. But any device not tied to my desk, I prefer to be ARM based. Power efficiency and always connected devices are just extremely practical when on the move.
  • Most x86 tablets and laptops actually have relatively comparable battery life to ARM competitors while also having had always connected for years now too.
  • Spot on Daniel. For the rooting for arm is only super natural as it is assencial for a great Andromeda experience. The silver lining on the dellay of the Andromeda device is that by the time it comes out it might even have a snapdragon 1000. Imagine a device that fits in your pocket but with the power of today's Intel i5. A device like that can be the only computer of a vast section of the population.
  • Microsoft already confirmed Andromeda will never exist and it was already vaporware before that.
  • The only thing really wrong with ARM is price. $1000 for Atom performance and limited compatibility is not doing Microsoft any favors. They aren't going to move many units when they 3x the price of the competition.
  • Indeed, the Miix is a great example, $899 for 128GB storage, 4GB and low performance (and lower power) CPU (although GPU might be decent). While the build quality seems good, one needs to be part of a very specific niche to find that device preferable to a laptop or 13" 2-in-1 with Intel or AMD CPU inside of the same price or less.
  • Perfectly stated. I enjoy Windows because it IS about that: Choice. Apple, you're confined. Linux is too complicated. Windows is the perfect balance, and seeing it finally come to ARM is a heaven-send! I'd love to have an ARM device double as my own mobile device. Looking forward to Andromeda!
  • Why do we have to use the word hater? Can you just say folks who don't agree? You can disagree with something or someone without being a hater.
  • Apple is moving Mac to ARM. It's called Project Kalmata. iOS software to Mac conversion is called Marzipan.
  • They've been saying that for years and every year people keep saying this will be the year, but Apple still releases new Macs with the latest x86 processors.
  • That's because Apple usually never releases half baked software. They don't want people getting a sour taste in their mouths when their computer doesn't work as intended. Microsoft has always been a release first, fix later company.
  • Well said. Bit disappointed surface go not WOA but SD835 seems not quite there yet on the performance end for legacy apps.
  • SD835 is old. The 845 had been available for a while now. Why is Microsoft always behind?
  • Maybe because they're waiting on the built-for-purpose Snapdragon 850?
  • So Microsoft wants to charge a premium for an old processor? They should have had the SD845 from the beginning, these devices weren't released until recently.
  • So Microsoft wants to charge a premium for an old processor? They should have had the SD845 from the beginning, these devices weren't released until recently.
  • The issue with Windows on ARM is that you will have to rely mostly on software that is actually built for ARM if you want good performance and battery life.
    Windows ecosystem has always evolved around x86 architecture. Most of the software available for Windows is compiled for x86 and not ARM processors. Tests have shown that even decent ARM processors are slower than entry-level Atoms when it comes to executing x86 code. So you will either have to live with only ARM apps or accept the poor performance of x86 emulation.
    Not to mention x86 emulation will likely result in increased battery drain as well.
    Another thing important to some people is driver support for third party hardware. You will most likely have to forget about using any 3rd-party Ethernet or WiFi adapter if you chose to use Windows on ARM due to lack of drivers.
    Yet another thing is hardware expandability.
    In short - I think the limitations of Windows on ARM far outweigh it's benefits.
  • Windows Arm is for tablets and laptops. No one is going to be using 3rd party ethernet adapters. All of that is built-in. We are not talking about desktop tower cases with PCI slots on the motherboard.
  • You do notice that the limitation are not inherent to ARM but just the current state of the ecosystem - yet you speak of the future?
    This is nonsense - as these ARM devices are full Windows compatible - its just a matter of compilation to ARM and not something which is set in stone. Indeed x86 emulation increases power consumption - but its still not close as bad as with Intel CPUs. Even when working with emulated Office, the battery duration is significantly longer than with any comparable Intel device.
  • Wrong, things like device drivers can't just simply be recompiled for ARM nor emulated either.
  • "If not, you're not really into PCs. You're into your version of what a PC should be, and that makes you more aligned with Apple than Windows. Congratulations." Dan, only a Sith deals in absolutes. I haven't seen these hater WoA comments. But my thoughts would see Qualcomm as a light mobile Windows experience and Intel a desktop power Windows experience. However, the more the lines blur, the better.
  • This is all irrelevant. Windows WILL die under Nadella. I moved to Android, and the light years Microsoft is behind in the modern digital approach is just staggering. Too bad Google eats my data for ads. If Microsoft didn't follow that path and would be all about privacy and security, they would have a market. Windows is a Desert island for legacy applications. All developers left.
  • In mobile yes banoob, In desktop windows 10 is miles and miles better than chrome or android.
  • Desktop is less and less relevant everyday. Eventually Windows will just be for very niche professional software you cannot get anywhere else. Even that will shrink as more things like Photoshop come to the iPad.
  • Sorry, That is not going to happen. Photoshop on ipad is niche. Most people want to edit their photos on a screen bigger than 9.7". for quick edits etc, sure, but serious editing for video etc is much better done on a large screen. Now, if apple ever makes the ipad mouse compatable, or external touchscreen compatable, then thats a different ball of wax.
  • We will see. iPad Pro and Photoshop will probably be a very popular combo for photographers.
  • As Microsoft continue to push the boundaries of defining new categories, we are confronted with what used to be experience to what would be not possible before but NOW Vincent van Gogh was rejected by the majority what seems to be obvious to the extend of frustration that he took his life. Some of us are simply outliers... We are able to see beauty in ways that are inconceivable by "haters ", who get more frustrated the more their comfort zones are being challenged The biggest value proposition for WinOnARM is the contradiction: a full PC that can wake up on demand by notification just like a smartphone... the rest of the discussion is simply distraction... I could imagine many ways this save life in ways not possible by existing PC with full windows running on either Intel or AMD .. One day, the hater could find his or her life being saved by this category of PC
  • What category has Microsoft defined recently? Laptops with removable keyboards aren't a new category, they are still just laptops.
  • https://youtu.be/3r2ksSPjfi0
  • I have a Surface Pro, it is just a laptop with a removable keyboard. Even Microsoft calls it a laptop. It is low hanging fruit for Microsoft, it isn't anything new.
  • Yeah I'm with you Daniel, I don't get the hate. There IS a market for instant-on, super long battery life laptop, with people who are happy to trade reduced performance on certain applications that they may not use much anyway. I'll bet there's a fairly large market of people who really just use office+web for 90% of their computing. This ARM PC would probably work great for them; the few times they need other apps they could endure the degraded performance. That people can't and won't appreciate that means they can't look beyond their own purchasing criteria.
  • That's the thing though, those features you listed aren't inherent to ARM. If you look at battery life comparisons with recent WoA laptops compared to similar Intel laptops, you're only getting like 15% better battery life for 2-3x the cost. Intel has supported Instant On and Connected Standby for years now as well.
  • This isn't entirely true. The intel procs that are somewhat competing (battery life & raw speed) with the used ARM procs are the intel m (or y nowadays) procs. Devices that use these chips are generally as expensive as e.g. the Asus NovaGo.
    Of course the emulation can still put a big dent on the speed when running legacy apps, but there are always problems with new technology.
  • Oh, I'm sorry, does this phone disrupt your delicate world view of what a PC is? Too bad. PC means Personal Computer. Nothing is more personal than a computer that you can carry with you AND USE wherever you go. Not the box that sits on your desk at work. Not the laptop that sits at home while you are on vacation. Its the computer you TAKE WITH YOU on vacation, and everywhere else you go. Because you WANT to take it with you. Because you feel lost without it. Because its your music player, camera, audio/video recorder, communications device, TV, GPS, emergency flashlight and game machine. And 10,000 other uses. Always connected, instant on. All in your pocket/purse/whatever. THAT is a "Personal Computer".
  • the definition of personal is belonging to a particular person. if its YOUR laptop, its a personal computer. if its YOUR desktop, its a personal computer. your bullshit comment is only here to confirm your own belief that arm pcs will be the best thing ever, but your arguments are just stupid. arm is a pc, and the idea is there and its a good idea, but arm is a very poor execution of said idea.
  • If its YOUR phone, its a personal computer. That is my point. "Oh, I'm sorry, does this phone disrupt your delicate world view of what a PC is? Too bad." The entire comment was about current phones, not future Windows ARM. You misunderstood, or I was not clear enough. I don't care about Windows ARM one way or the other. My whole point is get people to see beyond "a PC has to be running Windows or its not a PC". A phone IS a Personal Computer. Even MORE Personal because it is always with you.
  • for one, youre missing your own point by telling people who are against arm that theyre not real pc enthusiasts. thanks for making being sensible sound like a crime. the reason people are against arm, as far as i can tell (and im in this camp too) is that you can do everything you can want from an ARM computer on a smartphone. you might say that theres no windows on a smartphone, but on an arm pc the benefits of desktop windows can never be used because the processors are so bad. just push for a new windows phone thats built by google or samsung or something, because it would have the quality of an experienced smartphone manufacturer and the windows os for the people who really want a small computer running windows. and the snapdragons would be much better than the crap arm has given us over the years.
  • I get, more competition blah blah blah. That's why we should be rooting for the success of ARM-based laptops, but it doesn't mean that we're wrong that the current price-performance-suitability of Windows 10 is anything but horrible. We're not wrong. Doesn't mean we're not hoping they improve. As an aside there's plenty of ARM based PC's already, running ChromeOS and Linux. No need to wait for Microsoft to get its act together.
  • Nope, we are haters because we think Microsoft should price these devices to match their capabilities and to get them into people's hands. This article is just a straw man.
  • They are priced accordingly. Been through this bleached. Your iPad pricing argument holds zero validity.
  • $329 for an iPad but for some reason it is ok for Microsoft to release a similar device for $1000? That math will never make sense. Keyboard, pen, LTE and some extra storage doesn't justify a $600+ premium for a device with no ecosystem. Microsoft can continue to try and sell these low performace devices with outdated hardware for a premium and they will continue to fail. These devices are nice, but even with the Keyboard, $499 is the highest they should go. It should start around $250 with no accessories just to get people excited and jump start the platform. Instead, next year we will be laughing at another Microsoft failure after sales are disappointing, manufacturers stop producing devices, and WoA is "no longer their focus".
  • Add the pen, keyboard etc and HOW MUCH IS THE ******* IPAD?
  • Exactly. You know you are full of **** with the entire pricing argument.
  • No, again the iPad is $329. Adding a pen, keyboard, and LTE doesn't justify a $600 premium. iPad has options, if you just want a basic iPad, you only need to spend $329. You can add the other stuff if you want. The Surface Go proves it. $399 for great build quality and a much more expensive processor ($160 vs the $60 SD). Once you add in a keyboard ($499), you now have a much more productive machine for significantly less. These WoA machines should start at $299 without accessories. Microsoft needs to get as many of them out in the market as they can, otherwise developers and manufacturers will continue to ignore them. $900 is insane. A base XPS13 is $749. LTE doesn't make up for the massive compatibility and performance gap between these machines. The XPS even gets great battery life.
  • "Why can't they make a chip that gets 15 hours of battery life, has instant on, doesn't get hot, and has LTE built in?" You KNOW the answer to that, Daniel. Intel is handicapped by having to support all of the 80X86 instruction set, which was developed in the 1970s and 1980s. Granted, it has optimized that code many times over, but it still cannot be as efficient as a more modern re-design, which is exactly what ARM represents. Intel could engineer an all-new design, but the last time they did so with the Itanium processors, it didn't do so well. Intel's customers expect compatibility, and that's what the Company gives them. Sorry, it might have been a small point in your argument, but I felt it important to set the record straight.
  • Actually Intel CPU's do support all those features. Their line of Atom CPU's performed alright and had comparable battery life, instant on, connected standby, and built in LTE later on. But Intel discontinued that line. Regardless though, Intel has shown to be capable of having all those features as well. The issue was getting x86 to be mainstream in the mobile market proved too difficult for Intel since ARM was already dominant at the time.
  • Bullshit, Intel is big enough and should split up and lose the legacy support on one side and focus on ARM competition.
  • My issue with current Windows On ARM is that they're quite a rip off. They cost like $800-1000 for performance you'd find in a $150-200 x86 laptop. If ARM laptops cost like $99-199, then that'd be the perfect price point. That was the allure of ARM over x86, it's supposed to be cheaper than x86. FYI though, Intel's Atom line was pretty competitive with ARM in low power consumption and low heat. And there are plenty of Intel devices with LTE support. None of those features are inherent to ARM specifically. I also think it's not ARM itself that people have issues with, it's the OS. I think a lot of people see WoA as a repeat of Windows RT which in many ways it can be. The lack of support for 64 bit emulation and no support at all for x86 device drivers is a huge limitation in my opinion.
  • Let's be real here, you cannot compare the current released windows ARM devices with the crap devices around 150-200 bucks, only performance wise but for screen, battery life, build quality, audio, weight/form-factor, digitizer etc. I would agree that they are too expensive for the performance they offer though, but from what I understood the next cycle we can see far better ARM procs. The emulation will undoubtedly improve but will take some time on Microsoft's part.
  • $329 iPad ticks almost all those boxes. These current WoA devices need to be much cheaper or they will be ignored.
  • The problem with Microsoft is that they don't design their chips like Apple does. iOS is super optimized with Apple's chips. That is why all iOS devices run very well on "slower" cheaper hardware. That is why a $329 iPad outperforms anything on ARM that Microsoft pushes out.
  • Microsoft just doesn't have ARM software. Windows runs great on these machines, just compatible apps are non-existent.
  • I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Nothing I have read about Windows on ARM talks about Win Mobile compatibility. The whole point is to have full Windows compatibility, not a subset. With all the pluses and minuses that "full Windows compatibility" brings to the table.
  • "If not, you're not really into PCs. You're into your version of what a PC should be, and that makes you more aligned with Apple than Windows. Congratulations." Sounds like you are an Apple hater. You are into YOUR version of what a Personal Computer should be (it has to running Windows). Congratulations.
  • I doubt Daniel's an Apple hater. I'm pretty much the definition of Apple hater, though. I proudly admit it.
  • Most personal computer of all is one where you have control, thus open source OS, but I guess that's going too Personal for some people. It's all just about fangirls hating each other.
  • So, this begs the question: what do you qualify as a "Windows on ARM hater"? Just people who think the whole idea is a waste, or anyone who simply thinks the current attempt don't cut it and think it's not ready for prime time? I happen to fall in that latter camp. I personally don't care what processor runs Windows. What I want is to be able to run everything I run now on, say, a Surface Pro, equally as well on an ARM device with no compromises. So far, it ain't there yet. I think they'll get there eventually. Personally, the one thing ARM can hang its hat on is the one thing I really don't care about: battery life. What I get out of my SP is fine. If I spent a lot of time traveling and didn't often have access to power, I'd probably feel differently. But that's not my situation, so anyone trying to use that as a selling point for me right NOW is just wasting their breath. The other thing for me is the cost. If the cost of a WoA device isn't SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than an Intel-based device, then what's the benefit for me? So, I'm not #NeverWoA....I'm just #NotRightNow
  • They are sweet devices, but they need to be
  • under $500 to make sense. It is a tough sell at XPS13 or Surface Pro prices. I bought my Surfacebook refurbished for under $800. It will run circles around WoA devices. Built in LTE doesn't make up for all the other shortcomings.
  • So what your saying is "I'm not the target audience". Is their anything else that you are "not the target audience" for you could tell us about?
  • I would like to say that I agree 100% with Dan : I am really looking forward to ARM Windows PC !!! As of 2018, and also probably a good part of 2019, I do not expect the performance of Windows 10 PC on ARM to be reasonably good enough for my usage (web browsing, usage of some X86 apps,...) but if BOTH Qualcomm and Microsoft continue their investments in this platform, I am confident that in end of 2019 / 2020 timeframe, we could finally see reasonably good enough (but likely still in the lower end spectrum of performance) : I would be very keen to buy a fanless Windows PC, with instant-on capabilities and that have a big 14hours+ battery life !!! Also I agree that it will likely open new opportunities in term of small form factor low power Windows PCs for which Intel processor haven't really been good at up to now (2018)...
  • Yeah I think this too. If they stick to the plan there is a good chance the devices will eventually become interesting enough to buy for bigger groups. Probably the 3rd cycle or such.
  • Yep, I agree with you ochhanz : it would probably require 3 or 4 cycle or such...
  • Apple and Google fanboys will never like this Windows on ARM. Whether is good or not, just do not like it. hahaha Danial … Your point is real and strait forward really.
  • Daniel, You are so right. Competition is the key word. We need more innovation in the PC market. I love the fact that technology is getting smaller, faster and lighter in some cases. This push is what companies need to bring better products to the market.
  • Thanks Daniel!
  • My current PC is a Dell 7350 - a 2 in 1 which is basically a tablet that docks to a keyboard. It has 4gb of ram and the original core M processor (the one in the Mac Book with one usb C port). Battery life is decent as it has a second one in the keyboard but it isn't anywhere near 15 hours. And no LTE. I would love an updated 2 in 1 with better battery life and always connected and instant on. I couldn't give a crap if it is Intel, Qualcomm or AMD who deliver the internals. What I don't want is a laptop that has a fan. Why would I need something like that to run office and browse the web?
  • I have no issue with ARM PCs, but I entirely agree that they've been far too expensive for the performance. Yes, they've been costly due to the premium nature of the machines they've so far been released in, but who wants a top of the range BMW with a Daihatsu engine in it?
  • As a developer, I’d love to get my hands on a WoA device for testing and fine-tuning my app on it. However, cost is still an issue.
    Hey Microsoft, why not giving developers a fair discount on these devices through the Windows Developer Rewards Portal, for example?
  • Since using continuum on the Lumia 950 I've been looking forward to a proper windows arm device. Let's see what happens
  • I'm all in on ARM as long as ALL apps run and are designed natively for ARM. All this emulation stuff needs to go. All that does is run apps rubbishly and compromises battery life.