Things have been quiet concerning Windows 10 on ARM since Microsoft first announced in December it was in the works, but that will soon change. Qualcomm CEO Steve Mollenkopf has confirmed that the first Windows 10 PC running on a Snapdragon 835 processor is scheduled to arrive during Q4 2017 (via CIO).
Mollenkopf detailed the timeframe in a brief mention as part of Qualcomm's most recent earnings call, as detailed in a transcript posted at Seeking Alpha:
Fifth, we have an opportunity to disrupt the existing suppliers of the PC and the datacenter. Our Snapdragon 835 is expanding into Mobile PC designs running Windows 10, which are scheduled to launch in the fourth calendar quarter this year. In the data center, we announced the collaboration with Microsoft and demonstrated Windows Server Running on our 10 nanometer Qualcomm Centriq processors, the first 10 nanometer server processors in the industry.
The move comes as part of a partnership between Microsoft and Qualcomm, originally outlined at WinHEC, to create what Microsoft is calling "cellular PCs." The ability to run full desktop Windows 10 on ARM represents a huge shift for the platform, as Windows has historically only worked on x86-based chips.
Running on the Snapdragon 835, Windows 10 on ARM will allow full emulation of traditional x86 Win32 apps and games. Given the Snapdragon 835's smartphone roots, we can expect devices running Windows 10 on ARM to come with built-in cellular connectivity, Bluetooth 5, long battery life, and relatively thin and light form factors. Microsoft also confirmed in December that Windows 10 will add support for electronic SIMs (eSIM), with the Windows Store eventually selling 4G LTE data plans.
Windows 10 on ARM: Microsoft's ultimate mobile device vision comes into focus
We haven't heard any official plans for a cellular PC from Microsoft hardware partners like Dell, HP or Lenovo, so it's hard to gauge what type of device Mollenkopf is expecting to arrive in the fourth quarter. That said, whether it be tablets, two-in-ones, or Ultrabooks, the first devices to roll out with Windows 10 on ARM will represent a significant step forward for Microsoft.
Thanks, @Dan12R, for the tip!
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First Windows 10 on ARM PCs to arrive in the fourth quarter, Qualcomm says
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...i'm thinking that Samsung will release a WIndows on ARM S8 - with a phone interface and transforms into full desktop if put into 'Dex' dock.
W10M evolution:
There will be two flavors of the next W10M under ARM cellular pc powered by Windows OS with form factors to be unveiled next year
1. Windows
- Fully evolved form of W10M with evolution from Windows Cloud to full Windows OS via payment
- Fully evolved form Windows OSes will be available without going first to Windows Cloud version
- ARM cellular pc thru e-sim or sim card slot
- low, mid & high end tier devices
- 4GB max. RAM for ARM32bits, 5GB RAM above for ARM64bits
- ARM chips by Qualcomm with other suppliers arriving in the future of their own ARM chips e.g. NVidia & AMD
- call and text capable thru UWP Skype as default call & messaging program
- access to Windows Store & fully compatible to all x86, x32 & x64 programs
- access to Bluestack Program
- Universal Windows Program via CShell
- tablet mode ala W10M when undocked, desktop mode ala W10 when docked via continuum
- windowed & multi tasked programs in continuum mode with ability to pin programs in desktop area as shown by Samsung Dex
2. Windows Cloud
- Direct evolved form of W10M with ability to evolve it further to full Windows OS via payment
- ARM cellular pc thru e-sim or sim card slot
- low, mid & high end tier devices
- 4GB max. RAM for ARM32bits, 5GB RAM above for ARM64bits
- ARM chips by Qualcomm with other suppliers arriving in the future of their own ARM chips e.g. NVidia & AMD
- call and text capable thru UWP Skype as default call & messaging program
- Restricted first to Windows Store only & will be fully compatible to all x86, x32 & x64 programs if upgraded to full Windows OS via payment
- access to Bluestack Program after upgrading to full Windows OS
- Universal Windows Program via CShell
- tablet mode ala W10M when undocked, desktop mode ala W10 when docked via continuum
- windowed & multi tasked programs in continuum mode with ability to pin programs in desktop area as shown by Samsung Dex
Surface 4, here we go!
If only Microsoft had some sort of ARM-based Surface tablet...
Just can't wait. I will dump my Intel based systems in a blink of an eye. All Qualcomm needs to do is make USB implementation bullet proof. Both AMD and Intel suck big time in that department.
Come to think of it I never experienced BSOD even on 7 year old via chipset motherboards. Only happened on AMD and Intel chips.
Will this affect the Surface RT?
How many Windows users are going to accept emulated x86 on a Windows table or laptop? Why is extra battery life worth it when Word and Excel will be running at sub-atom levels and you know there will be bugs and comparability issues? And will it really save battery life when it is running many times more instructions for the same task?
So have to wait the end of the year to see what Microsoft is really cooking, i hope it will worth it. I will wait anyway...
I think Windows Mobile is ready (really ready) for a surprise. We should be presented a five inch tablet, with LTE and Phone Support (as an afterthought) ... but, wht does Microsoft know about mobile?
(db)
The 6" device is what interests me. It will be a phone, with the ability to run x86 apps (via emulation or whatever). Of course some applications won't work on that size screen, but a lot of them will work. Then, I also see combining that device with Continuum, perhaps even with a dock that provides more processor / memory availability, and then be able to use the x86 apps that require a larger screen size. This could definately be a true 3-in-1 device. You should even be able to run BlueStacks on it... which would open up that entire collection of apps...
Since Intel has dropped developement into low powered processors, Microsoft had little choice...this may be the best catalyst to bring up Windows Phones back to light. I hope the OS will be efficient enough to work with my 950xl...good move Microsoft.
I think that Microsoft will launch a "surface mini/mobile" also in the 4th quarter so as to set the bar for other OEM's and gather interest in what will effectively be a new form factor. Let's hope this is the case
Please keep in mind folks, YOU WILL NOT GET A PHONE FROM MS THIS YEAR.
The strategy is get the tablet markey, the 2 in 1 market, retake cheap laptops - cellular PCs, not smartphones. Apple and Samsung have had negative growth in tablets for years. Growth only exists in two areas - Windows, and budget. Bringing those two qualities together is intended to stoke the fire of even more growth.
That will get the UWP apps flowing, gain Windows more mindshare and open the gate for the mobile devices. Next year might be the year of the surface phone, or the "mobile pc", or whatever they call it, but this is the year of the 4G enabled affordable tablet, 2 in 1, and laptop - the cellular PC. That's where the battleground is, that leads through to the mobile battlefeild.
Late this year, what we be unveiled probably won't be a range of high end devices. It'll be Cloudbook, windows on ARM - devices pitched at schools and every day consumers.
Nail those chromebooks. Kill that tablet market. Bring us cheap, light, long life windows tablets with stylus and 2 in one, and folding forms - that crush android and ios and their already dwindling growth in tablets. Opportunity is open, it's time for the assault!
Does this mean Qualcomm will start releasing the drivers for their SOCs?
I'm saying this because, supposedly, the reason Android OEMs can't guarantee more than 2 years of updates (not even Google) is the lack of driver support.
The Linux kernel has a notoriously unstable API, coupled with an Android subsystem which requires newer and newer kernels for each update (to support finger print sensors, multiple cameras, etc), are the two main reasons why Android hardware has such a low life expectancy. Unless they throw out the Linux kernel and replace it with something which can be kept stable (QNX, *BSD, VxWorks, etc) - things will remain the same for a long long time
Hopefully, Microsoft can do better and provide a more stable API for its driver interface.
I'd go for something like a Nokia N950 (not the Lumia) as an ultramobile PC - I want a keyboard if someone wants me to buy a PC - even an pocketable one.
On a different note, I wonder if we'll come full circle and find that cellular PC's can contract viruses/trojans which automatically dial-up premium rate phone lines...
Might be one reason to microsoft promoting the Samsung galaxy S8 with a Snapdragon 835 processor in stores
I wanna go to Gargantua for a few minutes...
It's too late but I hope they do it right this time
If this is Surface Phone and will run windows 10,this will destroy totaly windows mobile.
And that's exactly MS have been telling us all the time. 1 OS cross-platform (PC, Workstation, laptop, tablet, 2-1, XBOX, ultramobile handheld PC (with phone functionality)
Propably now Windows 10 Mobile is like WP7.8 just before to WP8.0. Looked the same but architecture was different.
But even so why they didn't want to push whole W10 Mobile till that day? They (and we) lost so much time and oportunitioes to make UWP bigger and whole W10 ecosystem way more popular!
This is huge! It's going to be a revolution in the mobile industry and for the smartphone technology in general as well.
Just like Windows Phone, right? Don't be delusional
Are you talking to yourself? This is a different kind of cooky.
I'm not delusional. Please read it: http://1reddrop.com/2017/04/20/surface-phone-is-not-a-smartphone-vital-c...
Delusional? I'm afraid you are. Plus, you're blinkered to all of Microsoft's other failures in the mobile sector.
I'm not interested about the failures at all. Above all, I can't imagine myself with that ugly and trashy and full of junk and viruses android platform, but can imagine the future with the new MS device in my hand. :)
Well, i like windows to, but with this emulation viruses can also have a way to come inside;). And if it's the same core (sandboxed, they can't do no more cause programs needs more access to the registry to be able to run 32 bit and oh, so many things Programs can do), this viruses can do some pretty good damage to your system. I cannot see my self using antivirus in windows mobile. And being forced to use firewall? Not a great idea for me. But, a continuum hybrid, where when connected their is a full system while when not, their is windows mobile, will be something i like and appreciate, i have no idea how can they pull this off, just saying...:)
If you flip on the new "only from windows store option', win32's from the store don't have registry access. They create a special seperate file for it. This way, windows can, post CU, be locked down.
🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-tFdreZB94
@Galljinocka, great article. Similar to what Jason Ward writes here on Windows Central. Thanks for posting the link!
You're welcome 😊
The biggest hurdle is the fact that, sure it's fun to have a "real" computer in the pocket, but when you want to use it as a mobile device, then it needs to have the (mobile) apps; and as things are looking right now, they might not have any apps by the time they release it. How enjoyable will a phone be if it only has a dialer, a few Microsoft specific apps (which won't be up to date compared to the iOS and Android equivalents) and a web browser? It'll be more like Ubuntu Touch, which is fun to use, but very limited in its use cases (all apps are basically web wrappers).
Microsoft might be able to bring back developers to its platform, but scorned ones will refuse (such as the founder of Snapchat). The risk is that Microsoft will cause even more developers to ignore all its future endeavours simple because they constantly reboot the platforms and toolkits.
I have been considering a good mid-tier 2in1 purchase around June/July for something with enough guts so I can more easily do some real creating with and adding to my stable of L640, L650, NuVision 8" & ScreenBeam Mini2 that has me more than covered as far as consumption goes in any form factor and can continue to do so. But that's a lot of cords, batteries & syncs to keep up with. I like the idea of paring it down buy not at expense of price & performance. I think I may have to settle in a bit longer as well if only to see what the future may bring.
Things I trust more than a Microsoft release window:
Random posts on the Internet.
A psychic.
Google's privacy policy.
The government.
A snake, telling me it's totally fine to eat that apple.
Barry Bonds' steroid defense.
It's a dangerous thinking. You are underestimates google's dirty games. No one can beat them, not even MS.
I don't expect these to be cheaper than the already cheap PCs we have at first but it will be good to see it make 4G more widely available on Windows devices. Those that do have it usually come at an additional premium and are on more expensive devices only
That's sort of the whole point beyond 4g. Kill the chromebook, dig into the tablet market. It HAS to be priced competitively. This is essentially the year of 'affordable windows' (windows on arm, windows cloud)
Seeing is believing It would not be the first time that MS comes back on something they announced because they cannot get the technology to work. Remember how all windows phones would run windows mobile?
Interesting! Very Interesting.
So...can I replace my phone with this? Make calls etc.
Well this is gonna be awesome! Down with the wall!
I hope Windows on ARM enables us to install windows on any mobile just like we install on windows on pc. May be we can root samsung galaxy s8 and install full windows 10 on arm with CShell. That would be awesome achievement for microsoft. We may also be able to dual boot into phones.
This is something that I had thoughts of, Android devices being sold @ MicrosoftStore because (in the near future - total speculation on my side), we will be able to either dualboot or install Win10/Arm over the top of the S8 or similar. If this is what we could look forward to, I can now understand why MS is selling Android devices vai their Stores.
All speculation but what a boon if this is the case.
I like the idea, this is what I would do:
6-inch device, W10 on ARM and Android emulation layer.
10-inch & 14-inch devices, W10 on ARM and x86 emulation layer. Hooked to dock which includes an extra processor, W10 on ARM, x86 emulation layer, and Android emulation layer.
All devices
Yep. Give me the Android emulation layer on my Windows on ARM device with a way to access Google Play Services and we'll talk and I'll be willing to come back. Without Android emulation it'll be too hard a sell for me since it was apps and apps alone that drove me to Android. Then I can keep my actual Android device for Pokémon Go. Everything else I can use this new device for.
I like the Windows/Android dual booting idea. I've got it with my Chewi tablet running on Atom processor, I would love this on a phone running on ARM.
Well the May 2 event just got a whole lot less interesting if this is a Q4 thing. I just wish these sites hadn't advertised the spring event as Microsoft's big hardware event all this time.
<duplicated post>
Think of a recent example a Nintendo Switch though all the hardware is present it becomes more powerful when docked opposed to in handheld but its still functional. Think of lets pretend a surface phone. Functional in handheld (not all hardware) when you dock it like continuum (more hardware) but even better the phone becomes more powerful with the dock assisting it. So lets say you wanted to play a decent but older game. It wouldn't work well in mobile but its functional once its docked. I think looking at it that way and if its executed like that. It'll give people less of a reason to buy lower end PCs
Any idea how price point will be affected?
If I was to buy a Surface, why not go with a full Intel chip?
Desktop - where I game - I doubt I will be using ARM....
The only thing I use that is mobile...is my mobile....so you know I am waiting for W10 on my WP ARM phone....
This isn't designed as a stand alone gaming device. It will be a mobility productivity solution (think the Elite X3, 3 in 1 concept), but it will be capable of streaming from an XBox.
Surface Pro and Book lines will likely stay Intel. This provides a future for smaller more mobile devices that were limited to slow Intel Atoms, with faster performance and better battery life. Surface 3 badly needs an update, and 8" and below have all but been abandoned when Intel cancelled their next-gen tablet chip.
I definitely thing the first device will be an ARM Surface 4 with USB-C
I need a 6" pocket pc in my life again.
People who have no idea regarding whether photoshop ,lightroom, chrome can run on snap835- only for them- check out how fast they run on a snap 820 (watch winhec 2016 video) forwarding it to the 48th minute to the last.
It'll be interesting to see how the x86 emulation works and what sorts of devices Microsoft and its partners come up with. It's funny how this is coming full circle; Windows NT started out processor independent, running on both x86 and MIPS at launch and later other RISC architectures like PowerPC and DEC Alpha. Heck, DEC even had their FX!32 emulator to allow running x86 binaries. Different times, though, and different target markets (RISC workstations vs power efficient mobile).
So anytime between October-December 🤔 This might be to far out for a device announcement during the May 2nd or Build events.
Build events don't usually have device announcements. More software/development/windows, etc
Yeah, i understand that about build. Was just hoping for some light at the end of this tunnel.
It's a train 🚄
Yep yep, we're all waiting for it! 🙏🏼🙏🏼
I thought Microsoft was going to cut off their ARM (pun intended)
It's nice to see they are still in the game.
So we can be pretty sure the 2nd may device will be x86 based.
The second will be about Microsoft Cloud and a branded device for Education, but i doubt it carries the Surface name.
With that emulation I'm concerned about battery life. Probably it will last one or two hours emulating x86 versus ~12 hours running UWP apps only. Most of the programs not being converted to UWP are software designed for an era where PCs didn't run on batteries.
I suppose most of the time when running x86 apps the phone would be docked and therefore charging, just like when I use Continuum with my 950xl.
My 950 and Surface 3 can hold out till fourth quarter, then we will see what is there.
Now I'm wondering, if a normal installation of desktop Windows requires 64 GB to be at ease, wouldn't that make any "Surface Phone" already more expensive that most phones?
I don't know, if that higher would matter. If this device ever comes out, it will be meant to be your only computer/tablet/phone/communicator. So, if you look at the cumulative cost of these devices, having a single one for higher price than a regular smartphone would be a good value proposition.
All you'd need would be a dock, monitor, keyboard, perhaps?
I doubt they'd make it 32GB, because running updates on those is already on the brink of having no space when one has a usual amount of 3rd party apps installed. I've seen this on a 32GB yoga, out of the box, it hit its limit when upgrading W8 to W8.1 with Office and other apps installed and files shoved on an SD card.
My Creators Update hit a wall due to lack of storage space on a 128GB Dell Venue 11 Pro. I'm not sure even 128GB would be enough.
The iPhone SE with 128 GB it's only $499. So not necessarily :)
Which is at least 20% too expensive when you look at the internal components they use
Well, considering that Microsoft renamed Windows 10 Mobile to Windows 10 for ARM-based phone devices this may mean a new set of phone-sized devices in Q4.
Maybe.
I don't understand the notion that this represents a desktop replacement (running PhotoShop or something), but instead see it as a really interesting way to implement the upcoming Windows 10 Cloud.
Been a long time coming.
And so it has begun!
Good job Qualcomm, this will show Intel and AMD how a company can disrupt the desktop computing space by bringing more efficient CPU with better performance than last generation ATOM.
I'm pretty sure AutoCAD, Matlab, Visual Studio and 3D modeling software should be able to run at decent speeds on Snapdragon 835 which some folks have told me is more powerful than Intel Core M3 that comes on the Surface Pro 4.
Meah, don't geht to exited;). In the same time, i do not know why would anyone want to run high demanding Programs on such things as tablets or phones. It is cool a phone to be able to finally be used in a pc way, but i will never think of running autocand, Corel, Photoshop ar other Programs like this on sich small devices. With CPU's as powerful as icore 7 and a screen worthy of work makes no sense. Anyway, am pretty sire ms does not think about this either. I has to be a connection between Continuum and this. Cause else, i see no reason of this happening.
+1 Visual Studio! Debugging an ARM build of an app on the same physical device would be fantastic.
Well, AMD sold ATI's mobility division to Qualcomm so there is that lol.
I'm already seeing a big flaw in the W10 on ARM design. It can emulate x86 apps, but what about all the mainstream x64 ones. And what about the RAM, 4Gb max. A failure since in its inception.
Have you've been living in a cave in the last 5 months? Since December Microsoft showed a demo of Photoshop x64 running on ARM.
When they say it will emulate x86 it means both 32 and 64 bit desktop applications.
No. The current iteration of Windows 10 for ARM will not support 64-bit x86 desktop applications, only 32-bit desktop applications.
A correction... It will not support 64-bit desktop application. There is no such thing as 64-bit x86 since x86 is 32-bit.
http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/7/13866936/microsoft-windows-10-arm-desk... check this link and then reply with some technical background. Those 10 people that liked your comment clearly don't know what x86 and x64 mean including you. Please read the article so you don't embarrass yourself again.
The OS will be 64-bit ARM. No doubt it will support >=4GB of RAM.
On the other hand, they said x86 emulation, but I guess Photoshop is already x64, so no worries there either.
The OS is 64-bit, but only 32-bit desktop programs is supported, so no >4GB RAM for these programs.
That is just wrong. I am sure 64 bit desktop programs are supported when compiled for AArch64.
And the emulator only has 32bit address how will you run 64bit applications on 32bit emulator? Lol
How did you come to the conclusion i am talking about emulation when i explicitly stated "compiled for AArch64"? Somthing does not compute here...
Because Windows can't run ARM compatible applications. It runs Win32 in emulation and the emulation block does the translation to ARM instructions.
I'm taking about the traditional x86 Win32 desktop programs, not the native AMD64 apps.
Then of course you have to be more precise next time.
The point of Windows on ARM is to have native 64 bit desktop apps running when compiled natively. In fact thats the only app model that is supported, neither ARM32 nor Thumb will run.
It will not happen without emulation. X86-x64 processors are CISC (Complex Instruction Set Computing) and the x86-x64 ARM are RISC processors (Reduced Instruction Set Computing)
x86 apps are limited to a 4GB address space per app, but that means a 64-bit OS can have more RAM and each 32-bit app can max out its personal 4GB simultaneously.
I think that all the apps will have a common 4GB RAM. Memory management would be a nightmare if you want to run each program in a dedicated memory space.
I don't think I understand what you're concerned with.
Windows NT always runs each process in its own 4GB virtual address space for security and performances reasons (like mapping a single DLL image into different processes at different locations).
Basically all Win32 processes always use virtualized memory.
Typically, the first 2GB of each process is private to the process, the next 1GB is used for shared memory, and the last 1GB contains system code accessible for the process.
So, in a simplified version, if you have a Win64 OS with 6GB of RAM running two Win32 process, they can both max out the whole 4GB address space without swapping, as there is enough RAM for 2GB private to 1st process, 2GB private to second process, and 2x1GB shared for DLLs and system.
So the OS has always been able to map individual processes into the available RAM. Only Win16 had a common address space for all processes, since Win32, the memory manager already keeps a page map for each process.
Win32 applications under x64 bit OS can only run in emulation. Apps can benefit of maximum 4GB of RAM only if it's properly configured. Eather way if it works then cheers to them.
I'm pretty sure MS is already doing this. I think 32 bit apps running on Windows 64 bit each have their own memory addressing space on current x64 processors.
*cough* Of course each Windows 32 bit process has its own private 32 bit address space. I mean we are not in the 80s where many CPUs did not have an MMU.
ARM chips are 64 bit and support more than 4GB RAM, only reason this wouldn't is if Microsoft cripples it for some reason.
I'm just curious how will they implement the stacks in the emulation block. Im talking about the assembler.
With the exception of large database work and some high-end games (which wouldn't be playable due to performance on a low-power chip like this anyway), apps are pretty much all either x86 exclusive or available in both x86 and x64. MS Office, for example, is most commonly deployed as the 32-bit version. 64 bits matter for the OS to enable system-level support for more than 4GB RAM, but very, very few applications need that much to themselves. If you want to run Exchange Server, true, you'd be out of luck, but for all of the millions of mainstream Windows applications? They're all x86 (32-bit).
A 64-bit OS running 32-bit applications is just fine.
Considering the snapdragon is more powerful than Atom, and the newer Celeron mobile CPUs are based on Atom cores, this should work just as well as anything with Atom in it.
Maybe Intel will stop being lazy and innovate something, ultra mobile CPUs haven't improved much in years and Core M is way over priced.
Probably much faster, I'm pretty sure the devices with this CPU will be about 2x speed of the Surface 3 (CherryTrail)
Much faster chip, but the question becomes how much performance is lost due to emulation.
I'm also curious how Windows handles the big.little set up of 8 cores.
Interesting. I'd imagine good by then because of the way Xbox handled streams and how AMD chips work now. It should mean Microsoft is already doing some of that work now. :)
Windows on ARM should be as fast as always, it's just regular Windows compiled for ARM. Emulation would only be used for those applications that need it, and they have already shown it performs good enough on the WinHEC video.
And in that video, it was running on a 4 core Snapdragon 820. It'll only be better with the 8 core Snapdragon 835.
My guess is they start making ARM based processors themselves; and maybe with an x64 Coprocessor inside which translates any x86/x64 code to RISC for the ARM processor.
Not sure if that is possible though, but it's a thought.
Wait a minute... will I be able to ditch AT&T by purchasing data straight from the Windows Store?
Pretty sure not... It'll most likely be a partnership with different carriers (T-Mobile/Verizon/At&T/Sprint...), the same way you can go to Best Buy or Walmart and get plans in those stores.
MS isn't a wireless data service provider. Even if they offered it, the service itself would piggy back on a real service providers network.
Maybe there's the answer to their mobile woes, buy up a provider or 2.
Any chance that a "cellular PC" comes in a smartphone form factor? If that's what they want to call their new phones...I'm ok with that 🙂
The moment I saw "Emulation", I lost interest.
Agreed. It's neat to act as a stopgap method to get an app that isn't cross compiled in the Windows 10 Store, but that's all it is to me.
You do know that's what's enabling the Xbox One to be able to play Xbox 360 games, right? It brought great results and is one of the main selling features of the Xbox platform now.
Not saying it will have the same attractiveness for Windows. But it's not worthy of an automatic loss of interest in my opinion.
I'm very interested to see how the emulation works out, especially since Qualcomm is working closely with Microsoft.
You know what this means right? the end of Intel monopoly on desktop apps. With Windows 10 on ARM you can finally run x64 and Win32 programs on an ARM device which ends up in saving electricity costs and saving Planet Earth in long term.
This is no planned to substitute your workstation at Work with QuadCore Intel Core i7 CPU, this is like the successor of Atom CPU from Intel which Intel cancelled further development.
No, you cannot run x64 programs. Only Win32 x86 programs.
I bet you can run x64. It's an x64 chip.
Firstly, the Snapdragon is not an x64. It is an ARM64. Totally different architecture.
Secondly, x64 programs are 64-bit. All the articles, including those on Windows Central, stated that Windows on ARM will only emulate the x86 Win32 programs, which are 32-bit. I don't know where and how you guys think it will support x64 (64-bit) programs.
So to my knowledge, nothing has been said about the emulation only being for 32-bit programs, only that WoA is emulating x86 architecture (which includes both 32- and 64-bit variants). However, you are correct in that x86 is the nomenclature used traditionally for 32-bit programs on Windows, but that may not be the case. If Microsoft has confirmed 32-bit only, please show source!
x86 architecture is 32-bit (16-bit too, but that is obsolete).
x86-64 (or x64) is the 64-bit.
And if that is not enough, many of the articles, including Windows Central articles, also stated Win32 in addition to x86. Win32 is the set of Windows APIs used for developing 32-bit programs.
This article itself even stated
"Running on the Snapdragon 835, Windows 10 on ARM will allow full emulation of traditional x86 Win32 apps and games".
@myfyp2, that may well be the case, though if it's an emulator, it's not much additional work to support x64 if it already handles x86.
That said, I'm also not sure it matters at all. The ONLY difference between them that's visible to a user is access to more than 4GB of RAM. Most of us only run the 32-bit version of Office. And while there are many programs available in x64 versions, pretty much all of them are also in x86 (32-bit) versions. The real benefit of 64-bit is at the OS level so the OS can take advantage of more than 4GB of RAM, that's plenty for individual apps, with the exception of some 64-bit only games that want all that RAM (not going to run acceptably on low-end hardware like this anyway).
Bottom line: While I don't think we can rule out definitively that this won't support x64 emulation also, I don't think it matters very much. We don't really need emulation to support 64 bit apps, as long as the OS supports 64-bit to manage a larger total memory space.
I would think since the new devices will be available in the fourth quarter, there is not enough time to add support for emulating x64 instructions. Perhaps next major WoA upgrade or something.
I agree the lack of support for x64 programs now is not a big deal. There are very few x64 exclusive programs. Even the latest Visual Studio is 32-bit if I remember correctly.
@myfyp2, good point on there not being timing to add x64 at this point. I probably agree with that. My thinking was that we've not heard definitively that the Windows on ARM emulation will only support x86 (32-bit) and not x64, but I would acknowledge it seems more likely that it will only be 32-bit Winows apps.
So why put in 6 GB into the device, if it is only going to run Win32, which can access up to 4 GB alone? Especially since Windows Mobile (without Win32) works so very well even on 1 GB RAM?
For the OS and native ARM64 apps.
@Surendran Nambiath, as myfyp2 said, for the OS and native apps. The 32 bit apps each run in their own memory space. Even though each indiivdual app can only access 4GB if it's 32 bit, if it's running on a 64bit OS with, say, 12 GB of RAM, then multiple apps could run with GB of dedicated RAM per app. It's the OS that needs to be able to address all 12GB RAM in order to provide up to 4GB to each 32bit app.
This is the same thing on your desktop PC (whether Mac, Windows, or Linux). For example I'm writing this on a computer with a pretty hefty 48GB RAM. If the Windows 10 OS itself is using 3GB, that leaves 45GB for applications. If each of those applacitons were 32-bit and needed 2GB of RAM to itself, I could run 22 (45 / 2) of them before anything would slow down to cache out to the hard drive.
If the OS is 32-bit, because it can't address more than 4GB, then all apps have to live within that same 4GB of RAM (minus the amount needed for the OS itself). The way people are able to get with this at all, is because it swaps memory in and out through the hard drive cache. But because that's much slower than native RAM, this makes those systems feel very slow.
As I hope that helps explain, the real benefit of a 64-bit OS is the ability to include much higher amounts of RAM and avoid cache-swapping to a slow hard drive.It doesn't really have anything to do with the individual applications, except in the rare cases where the apps need more than 4GB RAM.
So you can run more apps, both ARM and X86.
LOL. Emulation is just a layman way of describing these things. I am pretty sure that Windows 10 on ARM does something like dynamic ISA compilation.
ELI5 dynamic ISA compilation please? : )
But emulation should give a nice boost to UWP adoption, no?
UWP are already very easily cross-compiled so they don't need emulation. Even Win32 apps are quite easy to cross-compile if developer didn't pick the wrong data types and didn't abuse assembly.
The only thing emulation really bring here is the ability for users to run Win32 apps that the developers are too lazy to cross-compile, or too old to still get fixed and recompiled.
As a user, I'm glad we'll get compatibility with most desktop apps, but as a developer, I'd rather just write code properly to cross-compile it and run it natively without any performance hit.
Unfortunately it's not that easy because Visual C++ won't let you target ARM when compiling a desktop app. MS may lift this limitation someday, but as of today it's still there.
Regarding UWP, it really depends on the app. The performance characteristics on ARM and x86/x64 are different, so if you have a CPU-intensive app you may need to apply specific optimizations to make the app perform well on ARM. For that reason I wouldn't publish an ARM build of my UWP app without testing it on an ARM device first.
I know very well VS currently doesn't let you target ARM for Win32, but that's just a flag they could switch, it could already cross-compile Win32 to MIPS, ARM, SHx, x86,... for Windows CE.
As for the performance issue, remember your x86 code will run in some kind of emulation or JiT translation anyway. Your final code still runs on ARM and limited to the ARM instructions. Your x86 deployed to ARM won't be worse than native ARM from the same C++ code, and much more likely better since the compiler can optimize C++ code better than x86 opcodes when compiling to ARM.
Any optimization you performed for x86 might even make the translation more complex, and yield worse performance than un-optimized x86 code that the translation layer has more luck optimizing.
Directly compiling to ARM definitely seems like the best route to me. I really hope they allow both and don't limit the OS to x86 binaries.
Sure, recompiling to ARM is the way to go. All I meant is that making the same C++ code (even well-written, portable one) perform well on different CPU architectures isn't as easy as implied in your post above. Game developers and multimedia app developers know this well.
I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that Windows 10 will run natively on ARM only the X86 apps that will be emulate to run on ARM.
Which would be almost all of them. But it is an x64 chip. I'd be surprised if it wasn't x64 too.
This is correct. It is like Windows RT, but now it can run x86 Win32 software via emulation.
The rest of the operating system runs natively on ARM, just like Windows RT.
12hours battery for netbook or tablets, FTW
Surface Book is already doing more than that. Will be aweomse to see how much they can push this!!
The key here is the huge potential to reach 12 hour battery runtime or more consistently in a smaller package, assuming that by that time Windows 10 will be also highly optimized in addition to that (which can be more).
Surface Book literally just have two battery packs which have really higher total battery capacity. With ARM, we will have very thin and light devices and still yet offering better battery life than current Windows tablets.
This is exciting to see indeed!
For the Surface Pro 2 you could attach a MS battery powered typing cover almost doubling autonomy.
Not holding my breath...
Good. Because Q4 is a while away. Much more than 1-2 minutes ;)
I'm hyped for this but I just can't imagine how should the full Windows 10 look on mobile device? Does it mean having a full desktop with start menu or just live tiles with x32 apps or....man XD
The Windows Shell will adapt to the screen size just as it does now so you shouldn't have to worry about tiny icons on small screens that are too small to read and too hard to accurately touch.
It is going to be an interesting Christmas shopping season for Microsoft fans with new Windows 10 devices and a new Xbox.
Yeah. Will be interesting to see.
My guess is kinda like Tablet-Mode of Windows 10. A start Menu with just icons/apps.
We'll see...
For devices with 6" screens it will have the look of W10M. This will be handled by CShell.
That's what CShell will take care of!
W10M-esque when on the phone, regular desktop on your 20' monitor.
Nobody's mentioning phones ATM. At first it will definitely be tablets and "bigger" screens. Phones may or may not come later.
No reason not to include phone capability; it's built into ARM, after all... Whether you prefer to call a 6" device a phone or a tablet is what it amounts to; it'll be capable of making calls nonetheless. Just like the first Galaxy Tab, by the way...
CShell. when on small screen, looks like W10M, when hooked up to a bigger monitor, looks like a regular W10 machine. It should be seamless experience.
It will look just like WM10 when screen size is less than 6". Becomes the desktop when the phone is opened into tablet mode.
There has been no indication it will support screens smaller than 6".
There has been no indications that it won't neither (or did I miss the info about that)
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-to-pc-makers-lets-make-some-windo...
Well it will be like the Windows 10 Tablet mode - not the Desktop Mode. Thats for sure!
Guess we'll have to wait and see. I know, the waiting game is unbearable, but oh well.
Maybe it's only gonna work when it's plugged to a docking station. Maybe it will allow you to launch x86 apps even without being docked. We don't know. I sure as hell would buy another WM phone if it could, cos that would mean full time Firefox and never having to look at Edge again. Otherwise... pretty much no other option for my next phone than Android.
Surface Ultra Mobile confirmed!!
Yes sir.
If only... Maybe in 2-3 years?
Will most likely be announced in the MS fall devices event.
MS is working on three sizes - 6", 10" and 14" initially. 10" and 14" are obviously tablets. The 6" one is interesting It could be a tablet with foldable screen or a phone which can be unfolded into a tablet. The 6" device could come in 2018 if a foldable screen is used. The LG foldable screen which MS has signed up to use won't ship until sometime in 2018. A newer Snapdragon processor (7nm) could also be used instead of SD835.
Any references for all this?
Mary Jo Foley mentioned the three sizes (6", 10", 14") a few times. She mentioned again in the Windows Weekly recently. Her source is Terry Myerson.
MS's efforts on Foldable Screen includes the patents they received recently and also the rumor about their interest in LG Foldable Screen which will be delivered next year.
https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-said-one-lgs-first-customers-new-folda...
Have a look at the 2016 movie "I.T." with Pierce Brosnan. At a given point the "bad guy - the IT guy" waves with a foldable smartphone (to impress PB's daughter). Looks very similar to the prototypes MS is showing off in their future vision trailers.......
Hope it won't be just another Kyocera Echo ;)
https://www.cnet.com/products/kyocera-echo-sprint/review/
All still at the Rumors stage, my friend... though I wish it was all true!!
How powerful is the 835 compared to a Celeron or an Core i3-7 etc?
This is my ultimate concern. Will it really perform?? Emulating Win32 on ARM seems almost unreal, but then again, there's been some software emulation wizardry these days coming from the Xbox team with Xbox 360 backwards compatibility so I'm really looking forward to the magic :-)
Agreed. Emulating a RISC ISA on CISC at near native speeds is an amazing achievement. Very few people understand what this means and give credit to the Xbox team.
they say "Running on the Snapdragon 835, Windows 10 on ARM will allow full emulation of traditional x86 Win32 apps and games"
hmm... this sounds too optimistic... emulation needs very fast HW and I dont believe that a Snap 835 could handle a native x86 app like CAD/Photoshop without problems. Its seems like a PR message but the reality will be something else
When you start talking CAD and Photoshop, you wouldn't even run that on a lower end PC to begin with. I would expect to see something similar in performance to the M3 processors from the SD835, just on a micro size chip.
what? I can run photoshop easily on ATOM or any low end device... it all depends on what kind of job are you doing
on the other side
what are people expecting to do with W10 on a mobile device??? Because reading the comments I think people are expecting too much. The same thing happened with 950XL and the reality was far far away from it
I would expect that I could retire my desktop . . .if there is at least 512GB storage, and capabilty for more as the Tarabyte SD cards arrive.
Running Photoshop on Windows 10 on ARM was a proof of concept. No one in their right mind will be running Photoshop or Lightroom on such a device.
Good thing we are so sane 🤣🤣🙃🙃😵😵
Haha!
kkkkkk
so what will you run on your mobile phone with ARM support?
what kind of x86 will you use???
It looks like it will be the same failure as W10M. With the lack off proper app ARM and full W10 will be dead on arrival
I would be running my mobile audio processor software. There are three different ones that i use. All are only available in x86 flavor.
I barely ever need a laptop anymore - continuum can nearly fully replace it for me already. Adding the ability to emulate a handful of programs that don't have UWP apps would be the nail in the coffin. I'd by a Windows 10 on ARM phone and a clamshell dock for it like the HP Elite X3 has and then that's all the device i'd need!
No one in their right mind would do it. But based on their proof of concept you can say that you can.
We'll try it just so we find something to complain about: "performance is really bad, look at how slow Photoshop runs" hehe
I would say it will be at least equal to Lightroom on an Atom, which does work decently for small libraries (done it on a Surface 3)
It is not like all x86 CPU can run those CAD or Photoshop properly either. Can Atom or Celeron or CoreM run CAD or Photoshop properly? Why use those chip which are more costly but run poorly instead using ARM which are way cheaper. I'm pretty sure that SD835 is a lot cheaper than CoreM
yes, ATOM can run photoshop.. it all depends on the image quality... 200mpx photos are overkill but full HD pictures are not a problem... CAD is something else
And for how long is this going to be too good to be true? Within this year? How about next Year? The Following?
The interesting thing is that Desktop CPU's are not gaining much performance each year. This allows more efficient chips (ARM) which have more cores to catch up and to use those "extra" cores to emulate CISC instructions to RISC instructions without losing out on performance.
I read somewhere that this is how the SD835 will run x86 software in Windows on ARM without the expected performance hit one expects with emulation. The 4 low power cores will emulate code while the 4 high powered cores run the software at full clock.
Do not expect high performance from arm emulation, you might be very disappointed. This is specially made for mobile and hardly made for desktop work. More like for presentations office, email, small things like this. Do not expect this low power cpu to be able to surpass a real CPU.
I'm not. But I'm expecting performance to be better than Atom and upto Core-M with this first wave.
And it'll only get better with time.
Yeah, but ARM has it's limitations, and i do not think they will ever be able to replace everything in the world, i mean: Windows would have to be rebuild from scratch (again) for us to be able to say that is a successful turn of events, and not only windows but all the Programs and web sites and pretty much everything we know right now, has to change it's structure for arm CPU's to really show their magic. Till then, well it is only emulation, and with it, comes limitations. Now i do not say that ms can't do a great emulation. But will never ever be able to beat those cpu monsters from intel in performance and functionality. Yeah, i know their can be a problem for Intel, ARM might make those normal users to ditch their desktops/laptops for thin ARM systems… not me, but for sure will be many. It is a threat for Intel for sure. Not that they will go broke, but being force to reduce production means more layoffs and other nasty things. So, they should come with an opened arm to ARM technology. But not something that will change the of how a PC works. No matter how good they get. My opinion... And yes, they might be faster then Intels M CPU'S, but with limitations, as i was saying.…
see.. thats the problem. You are expecting too much.
I dont think it can beat Core M ... and if it would beat it...... what will you do with such a CPU? Its still far behind from a normal i3/5/7 so you will use it for basic tasks only
"What will you do with such a CPU?"
You make it sound like today's Core M is slower than the 2007 Single-Core, Single-Thread Intel Celeron Processor in my old laptop.
Edit: And believe it or not, in 2007, that laptop was good enough for basic tasks only. Presentations and such. And believe it or not, one could run Gears of War for PC back then, assuming they had a good enough GPU. HMMMM, I wonder how well a Core-M today, compares to a gaming laptop from 2007?
Edit 2: By the way, my Surface Pro 1 can run that game, graphics turned all the way up and playable in 720P. I'm pretty sure today's Core-M GPU is more powerful than my Surface Pro 1's GPU. And since that game is VERY GPU dependent, I'd bet it would run much better on today's Core-M.
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