Still mulling Surface Duo? Check out Dave Lee's hands-on overview.

The list is endless! I currently still use a Lumia 920 Windows Phone, and every one of my friends has said that they prefer the interface on that over their own Androids. Also, if the Surface Duo is intended for productivity (which is what is often claimed), Windows outdoes Android by far. I could keep going on with an endless list, but then it would take too long for browsers to load the comments.

10X doesn't have Lumia's interface, and virtually all Windows productivity apps would be almost impossible to use on that small form factor. You'd be relying on UWP apps, and what great UWP apps don't have an Android equivalent?

Mostly missing broad support for inking that W10 and UWP do offer and it is hard to find good apps on Android that respect privacy a bit and are paid in contrary to freemium/annoying ads.
On the other hand UWP misses whatsapp currently so I could not rely on it as a phone. That being said I would love it if the Duo would support UWP apps in the future too even if only through sideloading.

You can install a windows phone home screen app, plenty of them, they are quite good.

It would give me a small pc with phone capabilities that I could use in the field, and when I came home, I could connect it to a display, mouse and keyboard and keep right on being productive, all the while NOT telling Google everything about me... And in the foreseeable future, PWAs should make the app-gap a thing of the past - hello banking app and all the other basic necessities of a smartphone!

It is a small PC with phone capabilities. Same as any smartphone in 2020. What could you actually do with 10X that isn't possible on Android?

The last time I checked my Samsung phone, it didn't look or function like my laptop.

The Dou has an unlocked bootloader. It is only a matter of time that a more useful OS than Android gets ported to it.

What OS is more useful on a phone?!

It's not a phone 😂

How those are simple and this list is not in "most" painful order, just painful order.
1) A truckload of drivers to overwhelm the SoC
2) Painful reminder of win32 legacy pains (In container my tushy)
3) A ginormous Os file size.
4) The dreadful debate of No-Apps
5) Curse at either MSFT and or Developers for canning this platform with... you guess it, No App
6) Ok, number 6 is me saying "and so on and so forth.

Android also uses drivers for all the hardware and sensors. But those are built-in by device makers into kernel and firmware. Because of that, it is so hard to upgrade android versions on them.

I agree. I would definitely prefer W10X. I am going to replace my current phone but I do think MS could have gone the HoloLens route and send a more clear and concise message to developers and users that they are serious and committed both to W10X and UWP. I don't even know what's going on there. Thats a whole other subject.

I think you pretty much made my post for me! I would love to have it with W10X more than anything, and if you feel the same way, please visit the following site:
http://chng.it/c5h9YY5b7h
I will also be upgrading (I mean downgrading) my Lumia 920 Windows Phone to the Surface Duo, but only because the world is forcing me to throw up the white flag. I am a UWP developer, and I plan on continuing to write my apps using UWP for users of Windows 10X when the Surface Neo is released, and also so they are ready when a phone supporting Windows 10X does become available. Some people deny that this will ever happen, but I think that considering that Microsoft now has the hardware, has redesigned many apps, and has Windows 10X (maybe not currently on the Surface Duo, but they could), once they see people's response to the Surface Duo, they will start working on (maybe in silence, but they worked on the Surface Duo in silence, too) a Windows 10X - based phone.

I totally agree with you, and the link you posted. An Android-only Surface branded phone is a slap in the face to UWP developers. I'm a developer too, and it's really hard to write code. That's why not everyone does it/can do it. I really feel for UWP developers that put blood, sweat, and tears into the universal app Kool-Aid Microsoft was selling developers only a few short years ago. One thing that I think could fix this mess is for Microsoft to somehow do the reverse of what your link suggests. Instead of Win10x running Android apps if they could somehow made UWP apps run on an Android based Surface Duo, through some sort of emulation/container layer, that would work too. Pull that off and I think Microsoft could in time be forgiven for the terrible way they've treated UWP developers in the last few years. Either that or I think they should give UWP devs free Azure based web-site hosting for life for any apps they distributed via the MS Store pre Duo launch date. That way you could re-write your app to PWA (if possible) without having to pay for monthly website/webservices hosting. That *might* "compensate" for the arguable "breach of implied contract" they made with UWP developers. There's so many great UWP apps that I CAN'T run on Duo. And that really does irk me.

If you chose to develop for UWP when it launched, that is on you. It was totally obvious that it wasn't going anywhere. Choosing to develop for UWP instead of Android or iOS was foolhardy. No serious developers did that.

Actually UWP is still alive but it is mostly at xbox and popular drawing/pdf apps etc on W10 now. Besides Xamarin offers a bridge to Android and iOS for UWP devs.

Yes this here, UWP apps on the Duo would be very handy.

How are you still using a 920 today? That phone was outdated when it launched! Must be the worst experience ever.

How was it outdated when launched? One of the first phones to have OIS offering the best low light shots at the time, Wireless charging, glove support on touch screen, higher PPI than iPhone at the time, DAC. Far from outdated when launched. Literally the best phone experience I've had at launch. It was the updates after 8.1 where the experience started to slow down immensely imo.

I agree. My 928 was by far the best smartphone experience I have had. The camera was top notch. But then I replaced it with a 950. What a letdown.

yeah, I think the success of the Surface Duo can lead to the success of the Surface Neo. it's the trojan horse method. you get into the population with a device that fits into their lifestyle without flipping ecosystem. and you slowly make them fans so that one day, you can release a device that will cause them to switch ecosystems. you look at the iPod which was basically a Windows device (yes, it was compatible with Mac but 90+% of iPod owners were Windows users). And grew a legion of fans who migrated to iPhone and then the Apple ecosystem was set.

Except the only ecosystem Microsoft has is for business. People aren't going to leave Apple Music for One Note or Excel.

that's not all they have. the Surface line is quite popular and is a good starting point. It's an $8 billion a year business. Sure, not Apple big but not small. In fact, my coworker's family is 100% Apple. apple everything. But yet her daughter wanted a Surface Pro 7 because her friend had it and she thought it was cool. My coworker kept trying to get her to buy the Air or the MBP but she kept wanting the SP7. and please, Apple Music is not as good as Spotify.

As a longtime Windows Phone fan, when I finally switched over to an Android phone with a Samsung Note 8 (or 9?), I discovered that with all the Microsoft apps, Microsoft Launcher, and all the Android apps, it would be incredibly difficult for me to go back to the "no apps" situation with Windows Mobile..
I think going with the Android eliminates a negative talking point of "no apps" that will overshadow all the positives.. And even with that, alot of people are focusing on the camera and specs, trying their best to ignore the positives regardless..
So imagine if it was running a version of Windows 10X in addition to those specs?.. All we'd hear about is a lack of mobile apps instead of hearing about what the device can actually do for productivity..

I hear what you're saying, but... 1) Dan, Dan and Zac just spent an hour arguing that the Duo isn't a phone, and that no one would use this as their only mobile device, and 2) at the same time they argued that PWAs would make apps obsolete. The first is odd, considering how they've defended the choice of Android, and yet still keep on pointing out the app gap. Make up your minds, will you!?! The second makes a lot more sense, and perfectly makes the argument why this device SHOULDN'T run Android.

Yeah but people would still nitpick the app gap no matter what if it wasn't Android (or iOS).. Considering how much negative press has been given to the camera (the CAMERA) imagine how the conversation would be if any big mobile apps weren't available on the Surface Duo due to it being Windows..

I don't see how the Duo cannot be used as only phone. The rather few times that I call I often set it on speaker, don't see how this is worse on the Duo than on a regular phone? And you can put the Duo unfolded in your pocket to quickly take a call. If Windows gets access again to Whatsapp and banking apps I would prefer that too though (taken into account some sort of mobile shell would be included).

I never put a smartphone to my ear

I use wired headphones, plus I use an Aux cable to listen to music in my car. Losing the 3.5mm jack would suck for me, coming from my G8 and its DAC. If you're someone who uses tap-to-pay a lot, that's a big negative (though I don't). The camera seems likely to be a pretty noticeable downgrade for many owners of high-end smartphones. Can it be done? Yeah, but the question will be how much of a compromise the buyer is willing to take on current features to get the second screen and pen productivity.

Then switch to bluetooth. An aux adapter is dirt cheap and so are very good bluetooth headphones. It is liberating not having a cable running across your body. There hasn't been a need for wired accessories for a long time.

People can be stubborn adn unwilling to adapt. I really liked the wireless charger with my Lumia phones. But I went with OnePlus with no wireless charger. I adapted.

Here here. I agree with you.

"Apps? Who needs them?" I completely agree with this. For any apps that I wouldn't have in the MS Store I can always use "install this site as an app" in Edge II and use it as a PWA. I have about 20 sites I use this way today on Windows classic.

Nobody else is going to want to do this. The experience is terrible and native apps are way better than even the best PWAs. Maybe in 5 years the situation will be different, but I doubt it.

If the device is for productivity centric folks I think plenty of people would buy into that model. As an enterprise dev I'd certainly buy into it for company issued phones. The ability to write ONE code base that runs on our PCs, our Surface Pros, and Duo would be a dream. But even for consumers, what's really missing on the MS Store? For productivity minded folks, it's mostly personal finance apps (Mint, credit cards, banks, stock trading apps). I use all those as PWAs on Windows. That and Office are all I need. Make it run XCloud too and I have all the gaming I want on a phone. This is a niche device anyway. So what does it hurt to have a niche variant of this device running Win10x for ppl like me that would love to issue these to 1000 employees and target PC, Surface Pro, and Duo? Or even consumers that care about productivity more than they do Candy Crush?

Productivity would be mush worse as the touch interface is basically non-existent, especially when it comes to apps. Nothing is more product than Android when it comes to phone sized experiences. Windows isn't even close.

PWA, UWP and sites offer touch support, as well as certain modern productive kits. And all of the online productivity kits. I now have an Android phone for a few months and tbh I would prefer windows phone / UWP again UI & feature wise. Android is not bad but it clearly is not made for productivity/work (yet).

Windows phone was made for productivity/work? Are you joking? There is no more productive mobile OS than Android.

Yes this would be really awesome, as you say Duo is niche anyway and is not all that popular concerning first impressions (mostly because of the price) even when it runs Android. Maybe in enterprise it will sell more?

well, in the modern age, people do buy insanely expensive phones because of how the pricing is done. you can buy the Surface Duo in multiple payments that is completely interest free. I think Microsoft is offering the same interest free deal they had with the Xbox.

Something ironic is that iOS 14 beta gives me a very strong "windows phone" vibe. Leave it to apple. They stole Palm/HP's thing and now they'll steal Windows Phone. 🤣

And every review will call it progressive and revolutionary! You should know by now, apple does everything first.

I think there is a grand conspiracy at play here... This device seems intended to encourage most relevant android developers (and Google) to adopt their APIs and integrate the two screen concept into their apps. Then... when the Neo is released, these two screen Android apps can be either 1) more easily ported to UWPs, or 2) the Neo with W10X will announce native Android app support. With the final goal being allowing the enthusiast community to unlock the Duo bootloader and install W10X...
(I can dream...)

I'm sure they're trying to find a way to optimize the strategy for the long term. I suspect that's part of it, but they also recognize they can't predict for sure how things will unfold, so they aim for that, but can't rely on it working.

Well, technically, you don't need Android support if you're running the Your Phone app. You can run all your installed Android apps on your desktop directly from this app.

I'll give you a like for that dream. I think that's the end goal. (UEFI? Really?) But they need some sort of "hook" to get people on board with the surface brand on this. Let people start out with Android, give an "installable" Windows package for it later as an option. (Probably expensive paid DLC, if you get my drift. LOL) This device strikes me as a trojan horse of sorts. If somebody wants to be rid of the google stuff now, however, there's other "app stores" that can fill in the gaps. You can get away with a lot without most of the google apps, and many can be safely disabled without doing anything irreversible. I once took a kindle fire and just played around with it to see what I could get away with using aptoide. No google play services so some things don't work. But I could do a lot. One way or another, this is going to be fun.

Grand strategy? Why do you think MS-DOS and Windows became global standards? Sure, MSFT would like the Duo to sell in the millions over the next 6 months. Then Developers would want to join the money train. But in reality, MSFT is just trying to provide the market with a unique experience. If the market likes it, they hope for developers to use the WinTel ecosystem. Since Intel can not provide a mobile solution, the Wintel ecosystem is moving towards the WinTel plus Android ecosystem. But I am not really sure that even applies. Azure/Cloud Computing is gaining a significant share of the computing market that MSFT just wants to get developers to use their services.

I'm impressed that the universal reaction I hear from people who hold it: amazingly thin, insanely great build quality, clever and innovative design. I also marvel at the fact that even though this came to market after the Samsung and other foldables that MS is getting the credit for being the real innovator here. Best press coverage I've ever seen for a Microsoft product launch. I feel a little stupid now for originally focusing on the missing Qi, NFC, waterproofing, and maybe mediocre camera (but those factors do still leave me unsure if I'll buy one).

I'm still excited about the Duo. Windowing applications in Windows is one of the most powerful productivity and usability things ... no swapping through a hundred suspended windows, etc. The Duo is the closest to emulating that in the mobile space. Android is not optimal, but phone OS space is what it is. I can still get all the Office stuff I need and web browser, apps, etc to do what I need to do. I am often in a position where I want OneNote and another app open, or a Word doc and Excel to make an edit, etc. All these things are reasonable on the Duo where I don't feel I'll have to take my Book with me to every meeting, or just roaming around the office. In my world view I won't be going to a larger device from my Pixel XL, I'll be going down from my Surface Book with the Duo having enough phone/android capabilities that I just won't need the XL anymore at all.

Wow. Lots of kool-aid being traded around. No, thanks.

Yeah no kidding. Just wait until people are carrying something and try to use this with one hand, quickly answer a call, or respond to a notification. The Duo has some innovative features, but those features come with trade offs that compromises what most people do with a phone these days.

Please show us a device that meets everyone's needs that doesn't come with compromises. Go on, I'll wait.

You could make the same reductive augment about anything getting criticized. There are plenty of devices that meet most people's needs. The point is there are more compromises here than most and people should recognize those compromises instead of just making excuses for them.

" Just wait until people are carrying something and try to use this with one hand, quickly answer a call, or respond to a notification."

Technically solvable as many people today have a Fitbit, Galaxy Watch, or Wear OS watch to solve these problems even for non-folding phones. Think of how popular Apple Watch is and that's for a device that doesn't fold or have "compromises." Try to explain that trend. Also, as probably one of the only people here to use a folding phone, using it one handed, and responding to a notification is NBD. You're overthinking this.

After seeing this device alongside the Fold I started to realize just how MUCH MORE REFINED the Duo is, it's not even close. Ok he changed my mind, I would take this instead of a Fold, maybe the Fold 2 would change my mind but we will need to wait and see.

This doesn't compare to the fold. Duo doesn't have any groundbreaking technology, it isn't pushing any boundaries. The Galaxy Fold is. It will take time for it to mature.

If they weren't comparable then why is everyone comparing them? Both try to get you more screen in a smaller package. Just looking at the duo you can see how groundbreaking it is in its own way.

The Fold is such a fattie though compared to the Duo and standard phones. Thickness in the end is important for pocket devices. And the Fold is priced a tier higher naturally.

Again, the Fold isn't mature because it is breaking ground. Duo can be thin because it is using old technology. Eventually folding screens will be thin and cheaper. Dual screens will be a low rent option at best.

the fold is just a tablet that folds and makes phone calls. there is nothing functionally unique about it. That is why no one really uses it as their primary driver. It has inferior cameras to their S20 line and Note line. It can't use a pen like their Note line. It can't even show as much information as a regular smartphone because of how Android handles big screens. Arstechnica had a great review of the Fold where it showed less text and pictures than a regular phone when both were set to default settings. And even after tweaking the Fold, it depended from website to website. At the end of the day, the Fold is just 1 big screen not meant for multitasking. Split view mode doesn't work on every app and even with tweaks, it's still has an alpha quality to it. And it's definitely not automatic. Luckily for the Fold, some of the things being put into Android by Microsoft will also benefit the Fold.

I get the love for the form factor, but I think it's something of an optimistic viewpoint. The video doesn't address the feature compromises, doesn't have any practical experience of usability and is left to postulate on everything. Dave is someone fits into both the crowd of multitaskers who benefit from the dual displays and the power users who enjoy the latest tech and will miss things like a better camera and tap-to-pay and the like. I'd be really curious to see if he a) actually switches to the Duo, and b) doesn't have to carry a second smartphone to make up for the missing features, mainly NFC and a higher-end camera. Those two things are the biggest drawbacks to mass market adoption. They are what the majority of users will feel they are missing out on most. For me, it's the expandable storage and headphone jack. It's hard to imagine someone interested in this device who ISN'T seeing major sacrifices in their normal workflow. It'll come down to whether or not the second screen makes up for it. I keep thinking I want it for the dual-display pen experience, but it's really hard to imagine throwing $1,500 at this and losing out on many of the things I do most with my phones--take half-decent photos, listen to music over a wired connection, and glance at the always-on display for quickly checking notifications.

The Duo isn't targeting mass market adoption. It's priced too high for that besides. This is a gen 1 device, it's designed entirely to appeal to early adopters and tech enthusiasts. That it's generating positive buzz is a sign it's successful at what MS needs it to be, but it's never going to sell all that well. That's not what it's there for. They just need to have enough units out in the wild to see how people actually use the device. Most of the compromises will be sorted by gen 3 (though the headphone jack is going to stay dead, you'll have to use a USB-C converter), and if they can couple that with a bit of a price drop at that point, that's when it starts being less of a niche device.

Camera might be good enough for quick shots, a better camera is a nice to have but not necessarily required. Same goes for NFC for majority of people (in the US at least). Expandable storage is not needed with 250 gb. Headphone jack is also not offered by other flagships.

You really shouldn't say what "isn't needed" for most people....

Yeah because people actually use more than 250 gb storage on their phones 😏...

Plenty of people use SD card for more than just expanding their storage. A lot of people use NFC. A lot of people use wireless charging. A LOT of people rely on their cameras. In fact I wouldn't never buy a phone that had a mediocre camera, it is one of the most important features for me.

If you read again my original post you will see I wrote "not necessarily required" for all the things you listed except the SD card, which makes your whole post pointless.

Premium hardware that has a quality feel to it is a good start. My GF saw Duo and said she's getting rid of her iPhone because she has to have it. That's a good start. 🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳 I told her to wait for V2. 👌🏽

Do you really think anyone is going to believe you have a girlfriend, Rodney?

Lol savage comment

Yes, I think you will believe it when you see me show up to your family reunion with your mom, son. 👪

Good to see you Zimmerman in here Rodney... I'm an old school WP guy. I'm going to give the Duo a go and hope when V2 is released I get a good trade in value from MS. This paired with my surface earbuds, I'll make it work.

We still be up in dis joint. ❤️❤️❤️

It's almost there, I wished there were a small screen on the outside to be able to answer phone calls without having to open it. The way it is right now you cannot answer a phone call with one hand because you need to open it. Besides that, seems amazing.

If that's important to you, you can always keep the screens folded out. That would keep the screens exposed, but that's no different from any single screen phone.

Keep it unfolded in your pcokets, possibly apply screen protectors (easy peasy) for good protection.

I wear hearing aids. I just hit a button on the hearing aid and the phone is answered. I guess that is a big advantage, but hearing aids cost $1500 easy, for ones that help with my high-frequency hearing loss.

Pre-ordered mine today. Got the 256GB for $106. How? Glad you asked. Been stocking up on Microsoft/Xbox reward points since before this was announced and have $1000 in my MS balance, $275 from my Corp card points, $50 invoke gift card, and $200 Microsoft gift cards from physical stores. Will order the Complete Care warranty with other gift cards after receiving the phone (couldn't use em on the initial phone order to buy it, smh).

Ha that is nice, have fun with it. :-)

That doesn't make it cheaper. It just means you're applying previous credit towards it.
The price of item stays the same. Thats basic math. later
-1

It means you pay less for it. That's common sense. There are a lot of people complaining about the price of those who could have made it effectively cheaper by collecting Microsoft Rewards points, as the OP did. I'm currently collecting mine until I get AU$100 to put towards a pair of Surface Earbuds. I'm doing that because it means that $100 less will come out of my bank account. The fact that they are not technically cheaper isn't really relevant.

Touche' John, thank you. Thought it would be evident, but not for all I guess lol The most ironic thing is the $50 Invoke gift card... Microsoft Rewards sent me an email way back when to enter a contest to win an Invoke, no charge/no points. Fast forward a few weeks later and I won. So now Microsoft is paying me $50 for a speaker that they gave me O_O

"Thats basic math." Guy whose handle is an integer mangles "basic math."

I just received a notification moments ago from the Microsoft Store that my preorder has shipped. I have an active FedEx tracking number and everything. Are there any reports of these being sent out early or is FedEx going to hold these and then only deliver on the actual launch date. Seems odd if it’s going to be held that long by FedEx....

Say word?! I will order my right now if that's true.
Only reason I didn't it because I had to do some banking

I can only dream about getting that email this early lol

One of the missing features of the Surface Duo is the ability to expand the memory...no place to install a card. I ran a quick check of Samsung's current offerings and noticed a similar situation with the S20 and S20 Note. The lower tier variants also omit the ability to accept expansion cards. A check of Google came up with an article that explains why Samsung has opted to remove expansion slots on some models.....keep thinness while offering larger batteries. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/samsungs-galax... I'm starting to wonder if this is why the Duo owners will not be able to expand storage...and have doubts that the feature will be found on the gen 2 model. 🤔

I'm getting the Surface Duo with 256 GB. From my experiences with Android (Motorola X Pure Edition, Samsung Galaxy S8, Galaxy S9, S10+, and S20), it's not worth it to buy expandable storage because it's not useful like in Windows. You can't really just swap cards and easily use them as storage devices. To be really useful, you have to bond the card to the phone. And it's quite hard to figure out where things are stored. It's not like windows where you can easily browse directories and change them on the fly. A lot of apps won't even use the card unless you bond it.

The base is 128GB and 256 is available too. No need for the hassle of expandable storage.

You cares if someone buys the Duo it will probably be the 256 gb model (the 128 gb is a worse deal imo).

I suspect that the 128 GB model will be used mostly by those who install few apps but make heavy use of OneDrive for d