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Verizon Lumia Cyan update reverts to 'Under Development' as delay continues

For those on Verizon waiting for the Lumia Cyan and 8.1 update to grace your Lumia 822, Lumia 928 or Lumia Icon, there is more bad news to report.

Windows Central reader NOLATechy has noticed that the Lumia Cyan update page (opens in new tab) has shifted the status from 'Under Testing' to a new stage 'Under Development'. If that sounds like a step backwards, you are correct.

Typically, the OS and firmware updates are already developed by the time they reach the carrier, where further testing may require some additional tweaks before certification. In this case, the Lumia Cyan firmware has evidently failed certification on Verizon, requiring Microsoft to go back and rebuild the update to address lingering issues on Verizon's network.

The 'Under Development' is a status level never used before as previously there were only 'Under Testing', 'Not Available' or 'Available' categories.

Reader NOLATechy reportedly had a conference call with Microsoft and Verizon Tech support about the delay. According to his report:

"Nokia confirmed with me that the reason Verizon is holding up the Cyan firmware update for the Lumia Icon is because Verizon is demanding that their phone apps (VZ Navigator, My Verizon, Voicemail, etc.) work "perfectly" on the device before they will approve the Cyan firmware update. They sent the Cyan firmware update back to Microsoft for "development changes" to ensure this happens."

Windows Central has been able to confirm independently through sources that this is indeed the holdup for Lumia Cyan on Verizon. Additionally, Microsoft's Joe Belfiore implied as much in a recent Tweet, noting:

"MS/Verizon are working on some bug fixes-- VZW taking the quality seriously. We aren't sure how long it will take, but work is underway." - Joe Belfiore 10/30/2014

At this stage, there is no telling when Verizon users will see Lumia Cyan. The OS and firmware update still needs carrier testing and approval before being released. Combined with the holidays, we may be looking at early 2015 before the final release is approved by the large US carrier.

Thanks, NOLATechy, for the tip

Daniel Rubino
Executive Editor

Daniel Rubino is the Executive Editor of Windows Central, head reviewer, podcast co-host, and analyst. He has been covering Microsoft here since 2007, back when this site was called WMExperts (and later Windows Phone Central). His interests include Windows, Microsoft Surface, laptops, next-gen computing, and arguing with people on the internet.

  • Verizon sucks.
  • I thought the delay might've been due to CDMA, since that is rare around the world. But delaying because of Verizon's proprietary apps?! What the actual duck? I'm so glad that I have both the 8X and the 822. I *still* can't use my fitbit on the 822.
  • As an Icon owner. Who would use their shitty apps? They barely work as is.
  • I use my Verizon occasionally since there are more than 1 device on my family plan and Data sense only checks your usage. I uninstalled everything else.
  • Same. My Verizon is actually kind of useful, but everything else got kicked to the curb.
  • Exactly this ^
  • Agreed!
  • Visual Voicemail, which normally comes included on WP, was stripped out in favor of Verizon Voicemail which does the same thing but makes you pay monthly to use it. The other two Verizon apps they mentioned suck as well. I'm done I quit. I'm going back to AT&T. I went to Verizon because their coverage in my area is better but I'd rather have to suffer from dropped calls then have to suffer from a company who holds updates off for months and months, in particular an update that would make my camera, GPS, and my vibration work again. I am so pissed off right now I want to go into a VZW store right now and throw a fit even though they can't do anything about it. I'm so close to being that guy.
  • I am with you buddy. May 2015 I am done with these SOB at Verizon.
  • 4 people onmy plan.  Just upgraded my daughter on 10/314.  Wish this story came out several weeks ago.  2 phones go off contract in Feb 2015 and my phone goes off contract in May 2015.  So now I just have to be patient and move 2 phones to AT&T in Feb and another in May.  I guess my daughter is stuck with verizon for 2 more years.  You think you are pissed.  How do you think I feel.  Since 2004 I have paid Verizon $31,121.61.  After all this loyalty, they throw me under the bus because their stupid apps that few people use will not work on 8.1.  Why do you think that is?  Do they work on android?  iOS?  If you look on my wifes iPhone in the app store you see that the "My Verizon" has 246 ratings averaging 2 stars out of 5.  Clearly Verizon is treating me poorly.  If you pull up My Verizon on my phone, what do you see? a stutering childish application.
  • T-Mobile buys you out of your contact, maybe ATT can do the same.
  • I know, right? Literally the first thing I do after going through the initial setup screens is to uninstall all of Verizon's crapware -- including setting the date to 2106 to get rid of the backup assistant thingy in settings. I want to punch Verizon in the dick so hard right now it's not even funny.
  • I had the Icon for about 24 hours before sending it back and getting a 930. I honestly shivered when I opened the App List view on the Icon and saw all those bloatware apps. I'd never use any of them. For example, why the hell would you use "VZ Navigator" over Here Maps/Drive??  And "My Verizon"?? Oh please, who really needs that when there is a perfectly decent webpage for you to check your credit balance etc. My heart sank when I first heard the 929 (Icon) was only going to Verizon here in the US, while the rest of the world enjoyed the more-colourful 930. So I thought to hell with it, I'm getting a 930 in bright orange, and I'll deal with the slower H+ speeds. So far it's the best decision I've made all year! (Verizon, you totally suck, just like your logo) ;^)
  • Goodbye Verizon, hello ATT Lumia 1520. What a crock
  • Agree Nokia ICON
  • I have Verizon and I love/hate it. I always have good signal and fast internet speeds, but I only have limited amount of data a month. I honestly think the only reason I still have Verizon is because my contract doesn't expire for another year. I was thinking of switching to T-Mobile since they pay to cancel your contract, buy I'm waiting till they get a really good WP. No offence to the M8, but its just not my style.
  • This is me exactly! Want to switch to T-Mobile to save some money, and I would right now even though my contract isn't up until May of 2015, but T-Mobile doesn't have a good high end WP. Hopefully by May of next year there will be some awesome WP10 devices available!
  • Switch to T-Mo.  Get th 635 so you can get out from under VZW.  Once a flagship comes out, you'll still be able to upgrade to it because the 635 is cheap and you can go ahead and pay it off to free up the line for the flagship.  That's what I'm doing.  Yeah it is sad I'm using a barebones phone, but I have the freedom to upgrade at anytime when the flagship drops AND I'm saving $25 a month not paying for a flagship so I can save that monthly cost and be in good shape to pay outright for the flagship when it hits.
  • I get what you're saying, but you're "assuming" that T-Mo will actually get a flagship WP.  It may not happen. Sadly.
  • Great logic.  Suppose you are married with two kids and your contract (928) expires in may 2015, your wife and son (iPhones) expire in Feb 2015, and your daughter expires on 10/31/16.  What do you do?
  • You mean windows 10 devices lol. It wont be windows phone anymore
  • They only pay up to $350 for your contract. Depending on which device you got, if it's only been a year with Verizon then it is safe to assume that you might have to pay the rest of the contract that is if you got the high end WP.
  • The blame on this one goes to Microsoft. Verizon is correct in "taking the quality seriously." This statement says to me that Microsoft handed them half-baked code and crossed their fingers it would pass QA. Fail.
  • That's a lot of damn assumptions you are making. We have no idea what Verizon's requirements are and if they are even reasonable. It could go either way, and without being privy to the back and forth, taking sides is illogical and a poorly thought out position to take. Considering EVERY CARRIER IN THE WORLD has now released Lumia Cyan, the "half baked code" argument has one hell of a hill to overcome to prove that point.
  • Daniel I agree with you on this on.  I don't think MS half baked the code.  I would agrue that Vz is dragging their feet.  Had a neoghbor by the Windows HTC One M8 and the Vz sales person trying to convince them to get the Andriod version.  I've been to a Vz store and there is less love for WP than ATT.  My famaily loves their WP's, just started using Storyteller, what a great idea on a phone.
  • You are certainly correctly Daniel, but it would behoove you to calm down about your responses sometimes. You are a "public figure" after all. Sometimes we have to censor ourselves even when we just want to scream F&*&^^&*^*&#^$#%^*$!!!!!!!!!!
  • Sorry, why Daniel being a public figure denies him the right to state his mind. BS on your comment. The backgraound between Verizon and MS fell apart long before the Cyan upgrade. I applaude Daniel for making a public statement.
  • Re: RHoudek ...
    Indeed! Well said.
  • Easy enough for Verizon to have one person assigned to reading sites like this to quash rumors and keep customers happy. They don't care. My wife and I are out the door.
  • Finally a well stated comment! @DanielRubino...Yes it sucks that this has been an issue and many of us Verizon Icon owners really think Verizon blows total bullshit right now but alas we all are not on the inside track....but as Daniel states, Cyan is working fine elsewhere. I am a Network Engineer and a programmer by profession and due to a project I am currently working on, I visit AT&T, Sprint, Verizon, and T-Mobile stores and write reports on my finding. I constantly ask Verizon associates about the Windows phone platform. Every location I visit says that per corporate policy, they are told to not promote the Windows product! Even if customers ask for a Windows phone! When I ask them if they have ever used or worked with the platform, 100% of the people I asked said no!!! So I ask "Then how can you make an educated comment on how well it performs or what it can or cannot do" Most just shrug there shoulders and try to change the subject! When the circumstance is presented I am leaving Verizon and going to AT&T, because I believe that Verizon is not being truthful in their reasons behind the delay!
  • Every carrier in the world does not run Verizon apps.  Only Verizon does.  Of course, I can't prove any of what I say and yes I'm making assumptions.  Aren't we all?  Only the people involved really know.  Verizon says there is a conflict with their apps and Cyan/WP8.1 and Belfiore says they're working on it.  I will retract the "half-baked" comment as that's just my frustration with software dev in today's world.  Software in general used to be released in a much more stable fashion than it is today.
  • Verizon wrote the stupid app.  Why is it microsoft job to fix their software.  If Verizon hates the WP why the hell would they sell it?  If they make no money, why sell the phone?  Verizon is being very stupid and for no reason. 
  • As I am  the person who was  on the conference call with Verizon tech support and Nokia, I will say the Nokia support person told me on the phone  that this was indeed the reason for the return of the software.  In my opinion, I can't understand why Verizon feels it necessary for their apps to be included in the firmware update, but this is their decision.  Obviously, they choose to disgruntle us Windows Phones customers over apps that could be updated after the delivery of the firmware.  The other option I suggested during the call was to work with Microsoft on these apps for the Denim firmware update and release the Cyan firmware as is.  I got no response from either Nokia or Verizon on this suggestion. Thank you Daniel for publishing the article letting everyone know what I was able to find out!   I, like many others, am extremely discouraged by the treatment Verizon has provided to the Windows Phone platform.  Verizon received an "exclusive" deal on one of the best Windows Phones available in the United States (i.e., a "FLAGSHIP" device), then showed a complete  lack of support for updates given this four months waiting for the update, actively dissuaded potential customers from purchasing the device and then retired the device early for "lack of sales" that was obviously due to the aforemention dissuading of potential customers.  These are not "accusations" I am making  against Verizon, these are "facts" that I have personally witnessed with my own eyes and would swear to in a court of law.  I sure hope this article helps people make a decent decision on their next phone purchase.  I know it has for me.    Great article btw!  Thanks again! NOLATechy!
  • Re: NOLATechy ... Thank you for being a catalyst in exposing Verizon's incredulous undermining corporate policies and unacceptable customer care.
    Verizon planned for failure, and succeeded.
    Thank you again for your efforts and for sharing the results.
    Greg Hartman, Lumia Icon
  • @Greg Hartman: You are very welcome.  I will continue my efforts with Big Red for our update.  I've decided to let AT&T and Verizon "bribe" me for my business - if AT&T's Lumia 1520 receives Denim firmware update before Big Red stops playing "God" with the updates, then my business will flip back over to AT&T!  If Verizon skips Cyan and provides us Denim first, I will stick with Big Red.  I suggest you and all other Windows Phone users plan the same, but if you decide to stick with Big Red even if AT&T wins, then I wish you the best of luck!  I'll be over on AT&T here in the Big Easy.
  • I'll tell ya.... it smells like vw crapware wants more permissions than firmware is allowing. Why else would they want it baked in?
  • As long as we're making assumptions, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Verizon is ensuring that the radio still functions as poorly on T-Mobile with Cyan as it does with Black. I get LTE speeds, but no LTE indicator. I have tethering on my plan, but can't do it with Icon (same for most cross cause usage scenarios, sadly). I'd like to think that Verizon is just trying to keep this device they retired as a Verizon exclusive even in its retirement and that Microsoft is trying to throw us a bone.
  • Since the cover story is little more then "the dog ate my homework". Sounds like spin. I wonder if there is a deeper reason. One possility that these days cries out is it has to do with Data collection. And there is some conflict in what Verizon wants to be able to do and what MS is willing to have its software used for. Or obviously vice versa.
  • Since all other carriers have approved cyan, I don't think its Microsoft. Since they say it is a problem with Verizon apps, we should be allowed to upgrade and delete the Verizon apps or just wait
  • The fact that other carriers, including ATT, released Cyan along time ago should tell you all you need to know. Verizon is the hold up here, not MS. Verizon probably didn't start working on this until recently
  • Because of the way Verizon's network works, Verizon can flat out tell microsoft "we will never release the update for any of your phones" and there is nothing that microsoft can do. They use CDMA technology which requires them to actively approve all hardware and firmware combinations. If they don't approve it, it won't work no matter how hard you try. Microsoft could go over T-Mobile's head with the 810 and release an update for it without T-Mobile's permission if they wanted to (they might end up getting sued over it though) but you can't do that with Verizon or Sprint. So the fact is the fault could be 50/50 verizon/microsoft it could be 100/0 verizon/microsoft and we wouldn't know. I can promise you 100% though that Verizon gets the final say on Cyan, Denim and all other firmwares. Verizon even gets the final say on Verizon's iphones, however apple would sue the crap out of them because they have a contract that says that Verizon has to approve all updates immediately.
  • funny, MS's code works for every other carrier. Perhaps the problem is Verizon bad app development practices and they're trying to pass the buck to Verizon. Nah, no one ever built a half baked app that broken by an OS update, never happens /sarcasm. Apple does it and people give them kudos for maintaining the integrity of their OS. MS does it and people blame MS.
  • You realize that statement was made by Microsoft's Joe Belfiore and not Verizon, right?
  • How many developers threw iOS 8 back at Apple to fix the problems the brand new OS had with their old, sometimes crappy apps?  No I didn't think so. The developers were all overthemselves to get their apps updated for iOS 8. Verizon's throwing it back and hold us hostage to get microsoft to make Cyan work with Verizon's crapware. As soon as I can find a good phone with QI charging I'll look elsewhere.  I, for one, am sick of Verizon.    
  • My daughter bough the Lumia 830 out right at the MS Store and got the FitBit Flex with it.  The phone is fantastic, 2 covers Green and Black (Qi) and the Incipio Case worls out great.
  • What is so special about Verizon network that you are taking Verizon side. All the networks in the world seem to have no problem with the update. AT&T seems fine, T-Mobile seems fine, Verizon just bitching.
  • But, they didn't send the others half baked code.. Why would Verizon get it?
  • More like Verizon's half baked code used in their apps. I have been using all my apps on cyan without issue. If there are issues with verizon apps it's because they have crappy app programmers who don't know what they are doing. Everyone of those apps will get uninstalled anyways. That's the benefit of wp over android. Do these apps even show up on Verizon's iphone?
  • The American way sucks
  • Your way sucks.
  • I'd hate to be on Verizon, but then again T-Mobile has not have any flagship Lumia since they canned the 925
  • True.   If they are actually fixing Voicemail app I'm sort of ok with it. My Verizon work fine. VZ Nav should die with fire.
  • They dont, they're very high end and professional.
  • Microsoft should just pay Verizon to get timely update and announce them as their premier carrier just like they did with Nokia and buy the whole network by sending in Elop.
  • I agree, Every time I think Verizon couldn't get worse, they top themselves. They are holding up CYAN because some Verizon software doesn't run right on it? Talk about the cart before the horse. Then no sooner than I read about that, I see Verizon has something called PrecisionID that adds a unique identifier to their customers' HTML headers so businesses can track their commings and goings. Bing Perma-Cookie if you don't believe it or want to know more.
  • at&t is supposed to have super cookies too and they didn't delay the updates. In fact they were first.
  • Agreed, Verizon sucks.
  • Hey Verizon, nobody wants your crappy apps. The first thing we do is uninstall those on all our users phones.
  • its not even those apps they are worried about. its the spyware app they have on the android and iphones that they want working perfectly. the navigator and other apps are just standard apps that will always work... the spyware app needs a way through the firewalls and verizon would rather comprimise consumers security than have a phone they cant completly control and access at a whim.
  • Oh...
  • Yes❗❗ Oh, where is Denim for my att Lumia 1520❓
  • Not out yet
  • I will slap you so hard it'll make your head spin back to last Tuesday, Robin.
  • Sigh.
  • So icon will get cyan in 2017?
  • You're a dreamer, aren't you?
  • Probably, just after Lumia Green Green comes out for every other device :P
  • Lumia cyan : 2017
    Lumia denim : 2022
    Lumia e with Windows 10 : 2036
  • I think the Icon is the next 810 and as such will never get windows 10.
  • You're just off by one year, Lumia e with Windows 10 : 2035
  • My magic 8 ball says "not likely"
  • Mine says no
  • Well some people aren't going to be happy... I don't understand why Cyan couldn't be released and then another update later could make Verizon's app's work "perfectly".
  • SHOCKING!  Soooo, Big Red can't update their apps to work with the new firmware?  Hmmmm
  • You got it backwards. If MS had the ability to force the update (which they don't because Verizon uses CDMA) and chose to do it, then there is a possibility that it might (Plants vs Zombies is still based on WP7 and works perfectly so I doubt it) break the verizon apps. What would then happen is that verizon would update said apps after fixing them. This would not require any changes on MS's part.
  • Plants vs. Zombies was updated for Windows Phone 8 by EA.
  • It doesn't support resume. I don't think you can bypass that without making it WP7 based.
  • Send some people over from AT&T to show them how to do it.
  • Didn't AT&T users also have to wait months to get GDR2?
  • For literally just that one update, yes.
  • I have the 1520.3 so I don't have any AT&T apps included by default nor am I aware of the existance of any. Visual Voicemail is built into the OS and just plain works. I wasn't expecting this to be the case since Verizon had its own. I'm not aware of any equivalent to my verizon (which I did use). VZ Nav is a POS and I would rather use Nokia Here maps. Hell I would rather have my car support mirrorcast and use Nokia Here maps than the built in nav system that came with my car.
  • Just a general question. As a casual observer, who is to blame for this carrier dominance?
  • Consumers
  • Yea, must be really. I don't like the idea of getting a branded phone, but to get a colloquial model only sold by one carrier? Absolute madness. Anyone who does this must surely expect 2nd class support? Surely they could see this coming? I would never hand over my cash for that. I don't get why anyone signs up with them at all, let alone gets one of their proprietary phone models. Verizon calls must be VERY cheap to persuade people.
  • I'd say Apple. Carriers have always tried to do this, but were never so precious about it until Apple did them all over with their no-carrier-input updates.
  • What amazes me is that no other company is bold enough to (at least attempt to) pull off the same move. That's a HUGE part of the reason for the iPhone's success. The only people who can alter its hardware/software (short of branding), is Apple. Everyone get's a near perfect phone with near perfect software with near perfect update roll-outs.   F**K Carriers.
  • Believe me, they do try. But its the carrier's decision to sell the device, and they decline if they can't have approval over the software.
  • Users, carriers and Google are available to be blamed. It's mainly due to Googles "hey OEMs, you can change Android whatever way you want before releasing the update" that they started to demand the same on other operating systems. Apple was powerful enough to refuse, but Microsoft can't do that for now. The good news is, with Windows 10, the updates will most likely go through the same thing as they go through on Windows: Windows Update, thus no need for carriers to approve, they even can't approve, it's rolled out, if they want it or not.
  • Windows phone update to 8.1 has nothing to do with the Cyan firmware update. Verizon has not approved the cyan update, you can get the WP 8.1 update without Verizon approval.
  • Yeah, here's hoping!
  • The FCC.  They are the ones restricting the access to radio waves.  But you would also say the market.  We used to have roaming charges.  But the communication industry is trying to build an integrated global wireless system.  You could also blame the last mile problem.  It is generally easy to delevery a service within one mile of the consumer.  We call this the market (grocery store etc...).  We call this the CSO (central switching station), which is were the main fiberoptic links terminate to receive the feed of numerous land lands in the immediate neighborhood.  We call this the INterestate highway system that provides easy acccess (ignoring rush hour) to most final destinations in the nation.  The cell tower is the least expensive method of bridging the last mile in the communication system.  Thus the carrier has an enourmous capital investment to build out this large integrated communication system.  Thus they become the defacto dominating force in various market relationships. 
  • God, someone please hack MS servers and tell me where I can just download the firmware and install it myself.
  • Right? Cyan works apparently. Just not with Verizon apps. Very crappy to hold back a firmware like that. Why would the apps not work?
  • Backup your phone, install developer preview than when the update comes revert.
  • The developer preview only gives you windows 8.1 Not the Cyan firmware update.
  • Considering Plants Vs Zombies is still coded for WP7 and works perfectly on my 1520.3 I find it hard to believe that their apps broke. I think they are just being an ass and looking to delay it by any means they can find.
  • Persoanlly MS should handle this the Apple way and release the firmware and OS together and not wait for the carriers.
  • I should've replied under you, lol. See above ^
  • I believe it doesn't work that way. I think it works as follows with CDMA carriers like Verizon: 1) MS finishes WP8.1 and hands it to OEMs (which before now included Nokia) 2) Nokia finishes Cyan and hands it over to Verizon (and theoretically Sprint if they offered any Nokia phones) 3) Verizon (or possibly Sprint) hands it over to Qualcom to install the keys that actually permit it to function on the network 4) Qualcom hands it back to Verizon 5) Verizon hands it back to Microsoft 6) Microsoft publishes it through the update feature.   I believe we're in between 4 and 5 which means you would have to hack Verizon not Microsoft.
  • Understood what you said is the process. When you buy an unlocked phone after step two, wouldn't it go back to MS to be published? Which means Qualcom never installs the keys but yet the phone works. So is that step skipped or does it go from Nokia to Qualcomm then back to MS if you happen to know?  
  • I think the new Star wars trilogy will be filmed and seen in theaters first.
  • Marvel Phase 3 will be over. Justice League will be done and dusted. Godzilla sequel will stomp the world. Cyan won't hit Verizon customers. Fuck Verizon.
  • That's terrible. Only because their apps that no one uses aren't working perfectly is the only reason for the delay. Carriers need less control over phones like in Europe. From my Lumia 830 on at&t
  • We have carriers here in India and they don't have any say in pushing out phone updates, be it Android, iOS or WP. Unlocked phones FTW! When the bosses at HQ send it out, we get it.
  • I hope one day it's like this here in the USA
  • As long as Verizon runs a CDMA network this will never change. I believe that actually Qualcom holds the real power and not actually Verizon. However I'm certain Verizon and Qualcom have an agreement to not permit OEM's to bypass Verizon's approveal. Theoretically AT&T and T-Mobile don't have to approve updates, but OEM's sign agreements anyway. The only way to make it change is to buy unlocked non carrier phones such as the 1520.3. AT&T has no power over my 1520.3. Yes they can cut the service, but they can't change the phone.
  • I disagree. I dont see how CDMA is any different than GSM.  Why would Qualcomm allow WP 8.1 on tmobile and at&t but not Verizon.  I believe that Verizon is simply not willing to release cyan for their on particular reason. I would assume there is some sort of power struggle within Verizon over the issue of app development versus phone subsidy model.  Several months ago, Nokia kicked out the senior exec in charge of the development of HERE apps.  THis exec wanted to stop supporting smartphone apps and focus on OEM services (Service contracts with automobile manufactures).  They fired him and told the troops to develope smartphone apps.  This decision by Verizon makes no sense at all.  The my verizon app (lousy) looks and feels the same on my wife's iPhone and my 928.  Since Apple seels abunch of iPhones through Verizon, they get prefencial treatment.  I tend to beleive that Verizon was the last major carrier to sell the iPhone?  so maybe Verizon exec's are just stupid.
  • You said: I disagree. I dont see how CDMA is any different than GSM.  Why would Qualcomm allow WP 8.1 on tmobile and at&t but not Verizon.    Answer: it is because GSM does not use Qualcomm CDMA radios. Only Verizon and Sprint use these.   And it has to go through testing and approved via the FCC.    
  • Isn't this more on Verizon? I mean up updating their own apps?
  • Probably. But it's their network, their phone, so their rules.
  • Actually, I bought the Icon off contract through Microsoft. Actually, I bought two of them so it is not their phone.
  • There was a reason that I left Sprint about two years ago. It was solely on the fact that they wouldn't support Windows Phone. Then I went to Verizon. Deja vu all over again. It's time to start looking elsewhere.