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Here is why Microsoft wants hamburger menus in Windows 10 for phone

The controversial switch from the ellipsis in Windows Phone 8 to the hamburger menu in Windows 10 for phone was explained by a former, and anonymous, Microsoft employee during a verified Reddit AMA session this week.

While the employee chose not to identify himself, he has been verified by Reddit.

The employee stated he worked as a "design lead" on the new version of Office for Windows Phone but left Microsoft about a year ago. He also discussed and debated the reasons why Microsoft made the switch in a video, along with placing a navigation bar on top. Here is what he wrote during the AMA session:

"Ah yes, the hamburger. So. I've written so much about this (and even made videos) that I'll do my best to summarize.""Windows Phone's original interaction model put actions on the bottom and navigation on the sides, as swipes. That's not a great pattern for a variety of reasons.""iOS started with a lot of apps using tabs on the bottom, and over time started aligning more with Android, who put a few key actions on the top, then a "swipe back" pattern for more options. Think of Mail on iOS, how you go into a message, then you can swipe from the left to get back to your inbox.""Windows Phone was left in an interesting spot. Many of us believed that the old interaction model just wasn't going to work. You can't stick navigation in a horizontal direction. It's part carousel, part "mystery meat navigation" and it just doesn't work. So. We needed to figure out what the new model would be.""Putting a title bar on the top was the first important step. If you're in Word and you can't see the name of your document, that's not good. So, ok, put a bar across the top. And now you have a bar across the top you can provide a back arrow in the top left to get back to your documents. Awesome.""Then you put the ribbon in what I called a "palette" or "drawer" on the bottom, and on the top right you can start putting "hero actions." I argued for only one but I'm unsurprised that they ended up with more.""So there you go, right?""Top: <-- Name of document common actions""Bottom: Three dots to get the ribbon in palette form.""The problem is, there's just way too many things on the top bar. For example, you might want to print. How do you do it? Well, you could design a print icon in the top bar. But it's probably not worth it. You could hide it in the ribbon, but that sort of sucks for discoverability.""And then you notice the top left corner. And you think "Well, tons of Android apps just put everything there. Maybe we could try that?""And so it became clear, due to the massive number of features in Office apps, and the extremely tight real estate, and alignment with tablets, that a hamburger was the best overall pattern."

The rest of the Reddit AMA is really fascinating. In short, Microsoft is citing a lot of internal research that highlights two important facts about their decision making in regards to the hamburger menu:

  1. People do not use a phone one-handed as much as you may think, especially with large screen phones hitting the market
  2. They have explored alternative design models but "Being a special unique snowflake works for art but not design." In other words, alignment with Windows desktop and the rest of the world trumps being different for the sake of being different

Will this end the debate about hamburger menus and adding a top Nav bar? Likely not. However, consumers have shown that this is what they know, research data suggests this works best, and the majority of users will prefer it.

Anyway, you know the drill: Watch the video, read some of the AMA and then come back and share your thoughts!

Source: Reddit

1000 Comments
  • Just read that.. Good explanations and the hamburger menus makes a lot of sense now.
  • Yep. I'm all for them hamburgers.
  • I never had a problem with them.
  • Same here
  • The only people I know that don't have a problem with them are the people that are always using their phones with two hands. Many of us rarely do that unless a lousy app design forces us to.
  • ...or they are masters of their devices and perform many one handed feats of awesome like a boss. ;)
  • Try doing that on a 6"... I remember when I had my Galaxy Nexus with a 4,6" screen, and I was constantly twisting my hand to reach all those top thingys. No, action at the top are not at all ideal.
  • Not a problem for me. 6"fits my hand like a glove. Keep making that complaint they'll just stop making phones I can use again.
  • Oh I don't want to go any smaller than 6" again but for me it only works because the actions are at the bottom.
  • That's what she said.
  • Good that I have my 6" on me all the time then ;)
  • You should stop using Facebook if you don't want Action's on Top
  • There isn't an alternative is there?  
  • But you can swipe through actions...
  • It's sound great
  • Nice! Lol.
  • Lol
  • I agree. Actions should be in the bottom. I rarely use my phone w/ 2 hands, and its working great until there's some shitty button or anything else in the top quarter of the screen. I have nothing against the icon, just the location. Why not bottom right? Still as useful, and easier to reach no matter your screen size.
  • Agreed, I'm impressed with metro design and actions at bottom. I'll prefer to go for android or will stay on windows phone 8 rathar than having hamburger on my L1520. Windows phone 8 is very easy to operate, and windows 7.5 was easier and more efficient. I'm confused by their approach, why are they making it complex and where are they going. If this is what they want to do, i think they should upgrade or renovate windows mobile 6.5. So that there will be start button, file menues and control panel. It looks like, those who voted for metro/modern design, and fought for windows 7.5/8 design have lost their battle and left the camp.
  • One of the dumbest arguments I have ever heard. If they don't get rid of the hamburgers, I'm going to switch to another platform that also users the hamburgers? All this wailing and gnashing of teeth over something so small. I really suspect alot of people commenting either didn't read the article or watch the video. The way it is presented in the video, this hamburger thing makes alot of sense.
  • People buy Android because it does virtually everything, and it has everything available. People buy iOS because of the ecosystem and uniformity. They are willing to do do without some things in trade for that. People bought WP for the metro design language that included a smooth and lag free experience. They also were willing to do without some things in trade for that. If WP10 is merely a clunky Android experience, but not able to do everything Android can, why would anyone buy it? Might as well buy Android so we then have all the features and apps. If they don't make this easy to use with one hand and ENJOYABLE to use, I have no reason to buy another one. Android has more features, capabilities and apps.
  • People buy WP for smooth and lag free, tile, integration with windows, xbox, enterprise. if moving to another  platform such Android and iphone because of hamburger is a bit silly.  Almost like empty threat.
  • The way its presented in the video: "everyone else is doing it so we should too". That doesn't really make sense to me.
  • When, have a hamburger menu have to use two hands, for the, phone it's, not, ideal for phones as the Lumia 520-820 it's a pain in the butt for reach each item but well to learn again how to use the, codes, for, Windows ,I hope gets updated, soon the application studio for hamburger style
  • Which kind of hands, guys? Think about shorter people.
  • How many times are you going to click the Actions on the Top in a Day! Stop spreading your stupidity. You don't complain about Facebook's Actions on Top.
  • Well I don't use Facebook every day, but if I did I would proberly tell you the same. Which is one of the reasons I didn't like Android when I had a 4,6" Nexus. Oh, and how nice to see how mature you are in that comment
  • I'm running Windows 10 on my 1020, the top menu buttons are a constant source of aggrevation.
  • Facebook swipes!
  • Come on, all we're talking about is six inches ;)
  • It's a big deal when its 6"... around... ;)
  • Lol
  • No, you mean diameter...not round, like circumference...
  • Oh yeah, diameter is bigger so lets go with that one ;)
  • But is not the actions at the top... it's nav. Actions still go on the bottom
  • Maybe MS should put an actually little solid white hamburger there... Or at least an option to have it there... That would be them kinda poking fun at themselves, and then people might not hate it so much... I think it's that fact that WP fans want something different.. A little flat, white, hamburger would be super discoverable.. Anyone new to the platform would be like "what's this❓".... I'm serious.. I think it would be cool, and no, I'm not drinking,,,,, yet.
  • That there is me!
  • You are right. Windows phone was not different 'for the sake of being different,' it was different because the way it was different was better.
    There are an ever shrinking number of reasons to use Windows Phone now.
    In fact, there may literally be only one: MS isn't Google. It's the only one I can think of.
  • Privacy. Updates. Speed. Battery life and reliability. Simple integration with other MS services, like OneDrive, Outlook, Xbox (with integrated authentication with the same credentials). No malware in the store. Better MDM API then Android (which doesnt have one, other than Samsungs 3rd party one) Better entperise support. Better consumer support (2 years verus 1 year hardware warranty)  I'm sure there are more.
  • The "speed" point is doubtable, the battery life is the same as android's sometimes worse, sometimes better. Most people don't use Microsoft services and need decent support of Google services which WP cannot provide. Although Windows has nice scrolling and fresh design it's not so good when you look at the app gap, the quality of the existing apps, their support, metro interface which sometimes fails to fit text in some apps. And never-ending promises piss people off. That sweet, shiny, dreamy os Microsoft is fond of talking about is always in the future. Wait, wait, wait. But we live in the present. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Not one single thing you wrote is true. Every one of MS services is supported as well or better on Android than on WP. Integrated credentials is a major DOWNSIDE of WP (you can support multiple OneDrive accounts on Android, for instance, our share Xbox music with a spouse). There's plenty of malware in the WP store, and no good apps to counterbalance them. MDM support on Lollipop beats WP any day. I don't know what "enterprise support" means, but Exchange, Lync and Onedrive for business are all better on Android. Hardware support is a porter vendor thing, and had nothing to do with OS.
  • There has never been a single piece of malware found for Windows Phone, battery is better on WP looking at the HTC One M8 for Windows vs the Android version, and privacy is nonexistent on Google approved Android devices
  • Only thing left-unique home screen with live tiles..
  • Paul, that's not what the statistics just said...aww piss on them there empirical research methods...
  • If you or they cannot see this as the single biggest issue they need to rectify as is evidenced by the massive amount of negative response that they receive, I'm sure they'll ignore it all and point to whatever study backs up whatever they planned to do anyway. However, that is not making many of their biggest fans "love" WP 10. The only reason I put up with the app and features gap and bought 6 windows phones was due to the design language of WP8. Without that, I might as well go back to Android. Windows phone was consistent, integrated, one handed simplicity. It just needed some missing features.
  • "If you or they cannot see this as the single biggest issue they need to rectify as is evidenced by the massive amount of negative response that they receive, I'm sure they'll ignore it all and point to whatever study backs up whatever they planned to do anyway." This 'massive amount of negative responses' is from a community of people who are happy with the way WP currently is; which happens to be a tiny proportion of the overall market.  I'm sorry but when 80% of an already tiny fraction of the market are against a certain change, it matters very little in the bigger picture.  What matters more is how the users of other mobile OS' react to the changes - for they represent the VAST majority.
  • Lol. That's exactly what I was going to say.. Some of these fans are so delusional.
  • We know how they'll react: they'll keep using Android which has more apps to compensate for the hamburger buttons.
  • Great. So you make iOS and Android fans happy while you alienate your loyal base. How exactly does this help them sell phones? I doubt the iOS and Android fans will want a crippled Android style device.
  • And who says the vast majority doesn't think likewise? Just because Microsoft's design department reasons their decision as they do doesn't mean it will work any better for the 'vast majority', either! In fact: If a loyal fanbase feels it is carelessly put together and that it doesn't work intuitively that should have them worried enough to rethink their reasoning - and yet somehow it doesn't. Look at any review on YouTube by people who end up preferring either IOS or Android: They ALL love the design language of WP and blame it on different things (mostly apps). This, I.e. the design language, seems to be the easy straw target when they should address lots of things that actually DON'T work with their platform. WP10 looks horrifying as it is right now, period.
  • Well said
  • So, put hamburger menus in the WP os and suddenly WP sells like hot cakes.....seriously!
  • That proves people are hungry. For cakes. And hamburgers. Yum.
  • The people that haven't switched don't switch, not because of the different UI, it is beside of the app gap and unncoolness of Microsoft in the mobile world. You want to start off with your core base recommending the product like rabid Apple fans have clamored for years and finally, successfully did it with iPhone and iOS. Being similar as the others only simplifies the converts' transition efforts. But universal apps haven't driven developers or the Snapchats of the world into declaring a new found respect and resurgence to fill out app store. In fact, popular developers seem to be dropping like flies. Without these apps, no users - without users, mo apps. What is the "killer feature" Windows 10 for phones has? None. Ugly UI, clunky UI, non native apps full of resuming... Screens, etc. Only the desktop version sends to have received actual improvements
  • Also, people who are left handed. I use my phone one handed alot but I'm a lefty so a hamburger makes total sense to me.
  • @Candide yams: Still I disagree that the hamburger button in the top left is the best option. See this "waffle button" in the Delve concept (last picture in this: http://www.windowscentral.com/should-microsoft-scrap-hamburgers-menus-wi... article). It works just as good for all the reasons Microsoft and this stupid fellow in the video claim why hamburger buttons should be superior, it works for left-handed navigation AND, contrary to hamburger buttons on top left, lets users control their device with one hand.
  • I'm lefty and have no use for the hamburger
  • I hate hamburger menu so much... I prefer to use the phone with one hand.
  • But, the only reason why WP8.1 allows for on handed use is because it doesn't have anywhere near the functionality of W10... That's why the HBM is necessary... Have you used the TP❓
  • Hamburger is fine. The top left is just the worst possible place for it to be. It should be on the bottom. The title bar does not need to be at the top. One handed use is being discarded for visibility of the name of the document. That's great for people with giant hands and short term memory loss, but for normal people who can remember the name of their document it just sucks. I'm using the TP as a daily driver, the top menus really are as bad as everyone has been saying.
  • Fucking PREACH.
  • They should make Hamburger menu on the right side also...for right handed ppl i mean
  • Haha, "great for people with giant hands and short term memory loss", perfect.
    I agree - why does it have to be on the top? The article just assumed the title must be on the top, and everything derived from that. Just put it on the bottom instead.
  • Or....the addition of swipe as in the Facebook app may suffice?
  • Facebook does a great mix of both hamburger and pivot while allowing for one handed operation.
  • Yes.. And, that's what MS is trying to achieve, going to achieve, with W10... Simply to much panicking here.
  • I've used the TP. It's terrible. The reason I bought many windows phones was due to how enjoyable it was to use. It was due to its unique design. WP ten is a hodgepodge of ideas, a mess without flow. An irritation. No one will"love" it as they said they wanted. No one will be "wowed" by it like so many were with 8. It's just hunt and peck. If at least we only had to hunt along the bottom of the screen, that would be one plus, but no, they decided to extend hunt and peck to the hardest to reach corner.
  • I'd have to disagree... It's mostly Alpha apps, and those apps look kinda funny right now.. But, if you notice 4 beta apps that are very well designed, and follow a specific idea that looks very nice, you will notice the direction they are going with mobile....
    1. The settings menu
    2. The messaging hub
    3. Outlook
    4. Spartan
    .......... Those four apps share a specific theme, and look great... We suspect this is the direction MS is going with the OS.. Granted they aren't perfect, but as long as MS keeps following this line they will have come up with a very nice updated modern look for WP10......
    Remember, this is the TP, not the DP... Things a seriously subject to change. You can't pass judgment about the final product yet.
  • Yes, TP stands for Toilet Paper because every reason this article states it's so full of S**T!
  • I am okay with making hamburgar menu only when they make it RIGHT,   put that damn thing in the bottom RIGHT and noone will hate it  
  • Who cares... More sooner than later everyone will get used to them, and we'll never remember any of this....
    .........
    For the most part WP hasn't changed since 2010, and it's time for some new additions, and styles.
    The thing that WP fans can do most to hold the platform back is be resistant to change, and scared that things will never be the same... That makes it hard for MS to progress the platform..
    ..........
    If we expect for WP to never change then ironically WP will be the platform with that old, and outdated look, that we've always accused other platforms of looking like.... We'd better not let that happen.
  • I like that positive approach everyone should think like that
  • Let's be positive and embrace the Android design language that so many of us wanted to leave behind. Buy Android?
  • If these changes are indeed here stay, let me be the first to predict that: "Windows 11 for Phones will be a skin on top the Android OS like every Samsung, HTC, Sony ect. out there." Then tell me why I should stick with MS? :'(
  • and now I know why he is an ex employee.. people dont use phone one handed more often? 90% of my college mates use the phone one handed, that doesnt mean everthing of course, checking an occasional mail, message, etc believe me one handed usability feature is absolutely essential, and that was one of the things that brought me to windows phone.
  • He chose to leave after being offered the chance to run his own design team because he wouldn't get to pick the designers on it. And perhaps you know less about this thing you've never studied than you think you do. I trust rigorous studies the entire design world adheres to over what habits you think you noticed among your little group of buddies.
  • Even if it's same, WP is--
    1)-Virus Free
    2)-Lag Free (debatable)
    3)-Pirate Free
    4)-With Privacy
    5)-Consistent Updates
    6)-Great Consumer Support
    7)-Even old devices get updated.
    8)-Include us in the making of the OS.
    Plus, there was a detailed article about it, and the burgers are just giving users and devs more options.
    Still wanna switch over just for more junk apps..?
  • Here here! Well said.
  • Exactly.... This frustration over change is nothing new.... Remember when they changed the FB app? The people hub? We didn't like it, but we got used to it.... It's really quite trivial.....
    ........
    It's really quite trivial when we have other issues like MARKETING < PRODUCT PLACEMENT< AWARENESS < PERCEPTION < BIASED STORE ASSOCIATES < APPS < LACK OF HIGH END DEVICES.........
    We have way more to focus on than a silly hamburger menu.... It's obviously not ruining the experience for the average user because they keep buying devices that are notorious for using hamburger menus....
    ....................
    Lets get our priorities strait, people... Lets get back to bitching about Snapchat, and marketing... Lol. But, really❗
  • Flagship problem seems to be solved hopefully--
    http://windowsphonehub.in/news-leaks/microsoft-to-launch-two-windows-pho...
    ------------
    And SnapChat is shutting down. Am getting the CEO's ass whacked soon.
    ------------
    And think about it again.....There are hamburgers in other OSes too. So are we gonna switch over from this great OS..? WP offers much more than others. Apps and market share ain't everything. Literally whiners take the burgers with some sauce.
  • No... In order for WP to survive it has to appeal to the average consumer... Market share is critical for apps. And apps are a necessity for the average consumer.... That's just the way it is...
    Apps are critical, don't fool yourself... Just now, just now❗ I was looking on the Vance&Hines website at their pipes for Harley Davidson... Guess what their ECU tuner interfaces with❓ The Mobil app❗❗ WP doesn't have the V&H mobile apps, so I would have to go get an Android device, or borrow a friends, to use those features... This is just one of hundreds of thousands of apps that are necessity that WP doesn't have.... While I agree with you that it's dumb to panic over a hamburger menu, I disagree that the fact that an American Airlines flight attendant can't use WP because her check in app is only on iDroid, a doctor cant use WP because his reference app isn't available, and a students critical college app isn't available, isn't a big issue...... No, apps are strictly everything when it comes to success in mobile, and marketing is super critical, because without it nothing really matters..
    .......
    And, that article scares me... A 5.7" high end device❓ I hope that's not the replacement for the 1520..... But, that story is just speculation.. This isn't anything confirmed, less know expected.... But, I do agree with you about the stupid HBM... Who cares. We have bigger fish to fry...
  • Hey Rod, I said that they aren't 'everything'. You missed that.
    Surely the big fish is already in the previews. Lol.
  • Oh.. Sorry.... What's this guy down here⬇⬇ talking about.. Murder❓
    ......
    Update... I see what he's talking about... You said something about xxxxxxx the CEO... Lol. You'd better delete, or change that... You know you can't say that.
  • It's just personal experience, but the people who are interested in WP don't move because of lack of apps or half functionality apps. They actually like the OS as is, and get the integration etc. But even if it's one app missing, they won't move because that's the one they use to communicate with their friends, college or business etc. All this nonsense about marketing is rubbish, how do you market no/missing apps! The current WP fans don't need these apps and love the OS design. These choose WP because it was different and they generally don't want hamburger menus. Keep talking about marketing and change whilst the real fans requests are being ignored.
  • No.. Never gonna skip the root cause.. I can't agree with you, and you know that, so quit.
  • NEVER joke about murdering someone, it is not funny. What has happened to this site?  
  • I told him to modify, or delete it....
  • Done. Still not sparing him though.
  • The devices you mentioned with hamburger menus actually have the swipe feature as well. As does the Facebook app on WP. Should there be the hamburger menu only, without swipe, on WP, then your argument bears no sense!
  • Well said, I'll never switch to Android because I hate Google, they just want your private info because your personal data gives them money to keep their company going. Microsoft does care about privacy, I know because they even keep foreign customer's data stored in offshore datacenters safe and secure. iOS is too expensive for me That's why I chosed Windows Phone. About 1 1/2 year ago I was OK with a middle range device but today I am looking forward for the Lumia 940 or even a better phone if it comes.
  • Yup, hate Oogle too. Just wanna make money. Thieves they are.
  • They all are after money and your hopes for privacy are a bit naive Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Saying that on the basis of..?
  • General sense. They all use your personal data to provide you with better services. Everyone is taking about personalisation and Microsoft does it even more than all the rest. Large corporations will hardly give this information to anyone because it will hurt their reputation. But they always give it to social services for it's the law. We are always watched by Google, Microsoft, Facebook, whatever. The question is: are they interested in you personally? Probably no. Unless you're something like a terrorist. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • That's why they are fighting with the US government to protect user data that is stored on overseas servers.
  • Are you by the way a microsoft spoke person? That's explain how you just blatanly defend them for no good reason. We love WP, that's why we don't want for it to go to the wrong path.
  • Well sort of.
    And blatantly..? I gave the reasons for what then..? I know many of us here are WP lovers, but more of whiners. Some are leaving WC just because of all this whining. And if YOU are a WP lover then stop accusing if you can't help.
  • @Badar Ramadhan
    I got the comment that you pulled. So am a whiner cause I disagree with you..? Same goes for you, as you don't agree with me either. Tell me if whatever I have said in this post is wrong.
  • Wrong path, in YOUR opinion.
  • Even if it's same, WP is--
    1)-Virus Free - Only because not enough people use it to bother making viruses.
    2)-Lag Free (debatable) - It isn't especially fast and the animations are overbearing
    3)-Pirate Free - Not sure what this even means
    4)-With Privacy - Your data goes over the same networks any other phone does, no more private than any other phone can be
    5)-Consistent Updates - Really? Isn't the carriers still in control of updates, especially since sales are low they don't bother?
    6)-Great Consumer Support - Most any phone has this.
    7)-Even old devices get updated. - Same as #5
    8)-Include us in the making of the OS. - Really? Do they?
    Plus, there was a detailed article about it, and the burgers are just giving users and devs more options.
    Still wanna switch over just for more junk apps..?
  • Can't stop laughing over your foolishness.
    1)-Apps get sandboxed, that's why there aren't any viruses.
    2)-I said that was debatable.
    3)-Can you by any wrong means install apps on a WP like illegal .apks and rooting for droids, jailbreaking iPhones..? Can you..?
    4)-You are just saying for the sake of saying it. Search the internet about privacy offered by Microsoft and Google.
    5)-Carriers don't fall under Microsoft Corp. do they..? Microsoft Corp. does their work. You cannot blame them.
    6)-Again, without any prior research you are saying that. Compare it with Google, Samsung or any other tech company. You might find the same experience somewhere else too, but Microsoft's CE is just superb.
    7)-Are you sure that every droid device has or will be updated to Lollipop..? Oh sorry, many didn't even get KitKat yet, how can I talk about Lollipop.
    8)-Have you ever seen SourApple or Oogle releasing Preview(s) of their products or services to the general public..?
    ------------
    Microsoft is giving us the chance to help make Windows 10, but how many are realizing this thing..? Not many, cause we are just whining not really helping em.
    ------------
    If you copy-paste a person's comment, atleast remove the unnecessary bit.
  • We are irked because we have wasted much time trying to get them to reconsider completely changing the OS we loved into one that mimics the competitor that we left for a reason.
  • "because we have wasted much time"
    Well yeah for sure, it's not like many here have installed 10 on any device. And never would've opened the feedback page.
  • I have the TP and see the enormous number of people against all these changes. Many people spent lots of time downloading, installing and giving feedback. They received enormous volumes of feedback against this and yet we have not seen this concern addressed within the OS.
  • @bleached: Yours is such a bullshit argument. It is so obvious that you wanted to contradict whatever points were made positively that you marched on with your counter without even thinking twice. You didn't agree with even one point Aman made; not even met him in the middle when a lot of it is actually true.
  • Cheers..!!
  • No. I want to do really basic things like attach whatever I want to an email, record a phone conversation, etc, etc, etc. I put up with not being able to do those and many other things because I liked the design language and no lag on cheap phones . Without that, might as well buy an Android. At least all the functionality is available.
  • Dude, you can send any file via email in WP. Just share the file via email through the files app. This has been there since last year, have you been living under a rock?
  • Which breaks a thread and is inconvenient. Yes, last year. We put up with not being able to do even that for 4 years. And even the files app doesn't show all folders and file types on an SD card. As I said, we put up with features gaps.
  • Even the iphone doesn't have call recording, yet people buy it....
  • Lol.
    They don't even have a 3rd party Lockscreen app.
  • People buy Android because it does virtually everything, and it has everything available. People buy iOS because of the ecosystem and uniformity. They are willing to do do without some things in trade for that. People bought WP for the metro design language that included a smooth and lag free experience. They also were willing to do without some things in trade for that. If WP10 is merely a clunky Android experience, but not able to do everything Android can, why would anyone buy it? MS is unlikely able to generate a hipster following that will cause people to buy it out of coolness if it doesn't have anything that wows anyone.
  • +Metro Design
  • Well I did mention some points (scroll above) in this thread. Those might have an edge over others. But yes, the app gap is the main concern.
  • I see someone has gotten up to speed on the talking points.  Can't even respond to the numbered items much because it's pretty clear you are a relatively recent convert to this platform (i.e. WP8 or newer).  There is just too much to write... For updates, WP is worse than Android for updates.  Android Flagships get updated for 2-3 years from practically every Tier 1 OEM (Samsung, LG, HTC, Sony, Motorola).  Both platforms face delayed updates due to carrier certification (Android less so than Windows Phone) and to be frank, and Android phone needs updates LESS than a Windows Phone becasue that platform has its ish together when it comes to out of the box functionality. A Galaxy S4 doesn't need Lollipop to record Slow Motion Video, for example.  It could do that from Day 1.  Yet, it's getting 5.x 2+ years after it released. In the day of super incentivised Speed Upgrades (Jump, Edge, etc.) most people don't really care *that much* about updates anymore - even the people who used to cry for them are finding less reason to care because they are upgrading on an almost yearly basis.  By the time a major update rolls around, they're getting ready to upgrade and the next phone will come with that out of the box. The carriers are basically brute forcing habitual Apple-like upgrade cycles on their users through incentivization.  Not only as a means to make more money, but also as a means to reduce costs.  If more users upgrade off of old devices you don't have to work "as hard" on dating them - and indeed, when the number of users on a certain device goes below a certain level (i.e. very few using it on your network), you can simply forego updating it (which makes business sense, especially for 18mo+ old devices where a lot of those users will be upgrading soon, anyways)... The biggest reason to worry about upgrades is for Security Fixes and Maintenance Releases for Bug Fixes, and WP has never shown itself to be better than Android in that regard, unless the end-user is willing to opt into a running Public Beta program (which I would personally never do on a production device, nor would I suggest it). Microsoft made Updates a big selling point for htis platform as they launched it in the middle of a time when Android users were absolutely disgusted with how OEMs were handling FroYo updates.  They completely failed on that (or rather, the Carriers completely won out on that) and since then it has never been better than Android's Top OEMs (which is all that matters in the US market - I cannot speak for the entire world). As for "junk apps," please don't let your ignorance show itself.
  • windows 10 is the last windows, there won't be any windows 11 or 12!
    Microsoft will just push the updates to the OS!
  • I wouldn't say never.... Just, not for the foreseeable future... The core, or kernel, and designation, will not work in 2030.... Lol. That'll be like Microsoft still updating Win95 still today... Lol... That would suck.. One day there will have to be a new OS, in name, and in function..
  • Might be like Windows 2016. I mean naming on the basis of years.
  • Very well said And with the Phablets around these days it's hard to make your thumb reach out that far a top in a stupid corner to hit a damn menu button, which nicely sits at the bottom right corner in WP7 & 8 with a 3 dot sign (...) Then why this Hamburger madness just for apps.. ?? 
    If the design is same as Android and iOS THEN WHY I SHOULD WAIT FOR THE PORTED APPS HERE AND WHY NOT DIRECTLY JUMP OVER TO ANDROID AND iOS FOR REAL APP Experience..?? Stupid designer hired by MSFT this time.. Horrible
  • Is it all same..? Read my comment above if you haven't.
  • I've seen your comment but we both are against Hamburger menu up top ruining the experience of WP OS.
  • If according to you, all the OSes are now the same, then why switch to some other OS..? Cause WP weighs over others easily, barring the app gap. Seems you dunno have much choice.
  • I'd at least switch for the original apps than the ported apps on WP ruining the OS UX with waste Hamburger menu.
  • Original where..? Play Store..? You're kidding right. ;P ;P ;P ;P
  • No, I don't kid around with kids like you.
    2nd Play store has hot everything which isn't there on WP store like Instagram(last updated a year ago LOLz), Pinterest, Snap chat, Secret, etc. So zip up your mouth kiddo. I'm WP lover only because of a unique OS design language and it's gorgeous UX.
  • Dude if you really like android then go for it no one stopping you.... Why so serious?
  • No what I actually love is WP design language, which is being ruined by stupid designers and that's what I'm pissed about. Instead, Ppl who are letting go off the UNIQUE Panoramic design language of WP OS are the ones who want WP as a look a like of Android with Hamburger Menu. Thus these are ppl who should go and buy android and not make WP as 2nd hand copy of Android.
  • Used a Sony Z tablet today and that has a lot of swipe-in menus from the top and sides. Don't know if this is the same for other Android tablets, but how come they are using swipe in menus more and WP less. Android sells much more worldwide but the argument is that swipe is not understood by users and hamburger menus are! Really, Android moves towards swipe and WP moves towards HBM, on the basis that HBM will attract Android users, seriously!!
  • Does Android have Xbox live integration, Office integration, Skype integration,disqus,irctc app? And many more.... No OS is perfect. And they still haven't solved the lagging issue in Android yet.
  • Lol.
  • Quote: "Does Android have Xbox live integration, Office integration, Skype integration,disqus,irctc app? And many more.... No OS is perfect. And they still haven't solved the lagging issue in Android yet." No, like practically every other platform on the planet, they use their own services ecosystem.  That's like asking if Windows Phone has:  PSN/Play Games/GameCenter Integration, or Google Docs/iCloud Integration, or Hangouts/iMessage Integration, etc. Can you see how dumb that sounds?  Different platforms have their own services ecosystems, and Microsoft's services ecosystem is - unfortunately completely on competing platforms while netiher Apple nor Google's services ecosystems are completely on Microsoft's platform. You cannot get iMessage, FaceTime, iCloud Drive, iWork, iLife, iBook, iTunes Store, Newsstand, GameCenter, etc. or Play Books, Play Games, or Google Drive, or Hangouts, or any other Google services other than Search on Windows Phone except for those for which third party-accessible APIs are available (and 99% of the time those apps are way worse than Google's iOS and Android Apps) and Apple services are just completely absent. However...  XBox Live, Xbox SmartGlass, Office, OneNote, Outlook, Office Lens, Bing, MSN Apps, Skype, etc. are all on both Andorid and iOS - and in many cases they're superior to the WP version. Not sure what "lagging issue" there is on Android.  I just got finished playing with a ton of them as I was helping a friend pick out a new phone 2-3 days ago and virtually every flagship from the past 2-3 years in the carrier store performed flawlessly (and I've had my fair share of Andorid devices - still have a One M8 inches away from me as I type... and it has no lag issues...). You people are starting to sound like the Crackberry people with the 2 year old retorts.
  • Since you're on the 3rd World Platform(ie WP). Let me tell you that the Android Problem is long gone and they still dominate the 80% of the Mobile Market in the world.
  • "Since you're on the 3rd world"
    1)-I think it was you on the comments below crying for your beautiful OS being destroyed.
    2)-And WP is 3rd, what 3rd world exactly..?
    3)-Low-End Androids form 75% of the that great 80%. And from cheap and niche OEMs. And it's not 80% either.
  • It's you who's a kid. Commenting with half knowledge. We have got 6tag, Pinterest's substitutes and SuckChat was pulled. And they were better than the original ones.
  • Zip up your mouth kiddo. You got destroyed.
  • You saying that to me..?
  • Yep Doucheman, sorry A-man
  • Won't reply again to a guy who just comes between discussions without any solid knowledge or argument on the topic. Your comment is totally OT and you just commented cause you wanted to suppress me, as you were owned by me some days back.
  • Yeah I want to dominate you. Now get back on topic.
    You like hamburgers cos you eat beef. Cow is my sacred animal.
    Plus you use your Lumia 620 with 2 hands :/
  • What? Cow is your sacred animal?. So? What does the cow has to do with hamburger menu? Whereas cow is beef.. Lols
  • Abe vo hamari besti kar raha hai. Samajh ni aaya kya.
  • Kamine
  • I'm atheist(naastic), I don't follow or believe in any religion. Ab pls yaar iss topic ko leke mujhse na ladiyo. Good bye rest @mathsisbest has clearly lost here with no valid points. So he is playing the cards of racism. What a failure you are @mathsisbest.
  • Lol.
  • The loser clearly has a grudge from the past. And which topic..? Don't see a valid argument from you racist. Well everyone is not poor like you. Everyone doesn't have a 620 like you. So please..
    And this is the last time am replying an idiot racist like you.
  • Yo, don't cry A-man. You're my number one buddy.
    Btw why are you always playing the racist card? Argue your case - don't rely on being the victim 24/7.
  • Why are you being the racist everytime..? Brother of Peg Leg.
  • Bhaag chutiye! Saala koi point hai Ni buckney ko bus khaali gaand hilaa raha hai
  • Haan bc tere pass bada koi point hai. Jab logo se kuch nahi hota hai tab vo gaaliyan he deten hain.
  • Nahi nahi mere bhai, gaaliyaa tab dete hai jab Kisi Ko ek hi baat 10 baar se zaada batani pade. Jaisey Ki: ANDROID: Android too realizes the placement of hamburger menu button on top is hard to reach. ANDROID SOLUTION: Why not use swipe from edge to bring in the Hamburger menu(like Facebook app, YouTube, Gmail app), whereas Hamburger menu button on top left is too hard to reach for on phablets (for right handed ppl). APPLE: Apple too recognized this hamburger menu/back button on top left and solved it (temporarily) by double tapping the home button, which will bring down the entire screen. So it'll be easier to hit hamburger menu button on phablets like iPhone6. Pls read points & solutions above which other famous platforms too have faced. uppar padhley bhai warna baad Mein mat kahiyo Ki point nahi hai, THIS IS TH 12TH TIME I'M WRITING TO YOU. =.= PROBLEM: Hard to reach Hamburger menu on Phablets.
    AND PHONES ARE MEANT FOR 1 HANDED USE ONLY. Even Apple knew before selling 'iPhone 6 & iPhone 6 Plus'. And Apple knows phones are meant for ONLY 1 HANDED USAGE. WP SOLUTION: Use swipe from edge to bring in the Hamburger Menu. Next question pls.
  • Like I said earlier, no point in telling here at WC. Try the UserVoice or something.
  • Yeah ppl like you are better off with unoriginal ported apps and look like a 3rd world OS begging for app resources from Apple & Android by ruining the unique beauty of the OS. Google doesn't let WP have Gmail & YouTube on WP. Do you think they'll let their apps go on to WP without any legal suits?? Ultimately we'll have our beautiful WP OS all effed up and never get the android apps ported to WP OS. Even if ported the developers won't look into solving any bugs or issues WP users face.. Now you understood.. Is it now obvious. And only reply if u have valid point.
  • Does every app gets ported..? Google is just jealous and is increasing hate for itself with that attitude. And not being rude here but you surely are overreacting here with that 'beautiful WP OS' thing. It's not the end of the world, is it..? Seeing that your argument is not great either, you can't expect a great reply from others.
  • Please bring some points to talk else tort off
  • Says someone who is just crying over his beautiful OS. Well c'mon, if you're that pissed about the HBMs then please bug Microsoft about it or switch to some other OS (yes am recommending that, seeing that you cannot handle so much pain). No point in whining and arguing over here, that too with no solid points of yours. Plus, stop abusing (especially to folks who don't know Hindi). Only those who are on the verge of losing do this.
    "Only reply if you have a solid argument"
    ^^This applies to you also, if you reply an abuse or some crap I won't reply back.
  • Windows Phone may be getting closer to the other platforms, but it definitely isn't there. Either way, there is no Windows Phone worth buying at all these days. They have nothing to stand up next to the iPhone or GS6, even in camera quality.
  • Actually, as far as camera quality goes the 930 just beat those phone in a recent vote...
  • Leave this guy Rod, he's illiterate in the tech world.
  • Yeah... He's bitchin more than me, but about nothing.. How, can adding more easily accessible functionality ruin the OS❓
    .........
    What these guys don't understand is that W10 has a lot more options, and a lot more things to be done with, than WP8.1.... They still have this minimalistic frame of mind where they can tap the bottom and access only three stupid little options... Lol. Maybe if they understood how far behind WP was on functionality they would understand why the HB menu is necessary.... Nobody has to like it, but if it's necessary then who cares.... Get over it.
  • You bitch mind your language first, such a kid abusing over trivial issues. And you just proved how bigger of an illiterate you already are. EITHER YOU PRESS HAMBURG MENU(ON TOP LEFT) OR THE 3 DOT MENU (AT BOTTOM RIGHT) WILL OPEN THE LIST OF SAME OPTIONS ONLY.. DIFFERENCE IS ONLY OF PLACEMENT. 3 DOT MENU AT THE BOTTOM RIGHT MAKES THE PHONE USABLE WITH ONE HAND AND RETAINS THE UNIQUENESS OF WP OS WITH PANORAMIC VIEW OF MORDEN DESIGN.
  • Haan gadhey it is about design language, not tech world. Gawaar stop mocking yourself please.
    See the MOST FAMOUS APPS ALL OF THEM ARE DITCHING HAMBURGER BUTTONS ON TOP. Eg: Facebook(iOS/Android), Instagram, Twitter, Vine, Skype, Spotify, Outlook app (on iOS/Android), Tumblr (left side, easy while holding it), and BILLIONS OF OTHER FAMOUS APPS ARE QUICKLY DITCHING HAMBURGER MENU because of easy one hand usability.
    And you're a duffer in both tech world and real life as well, who has no actual reason to support his own statement/Hamburger Menu UX, whereas I've much better ideas. Dumb minded people.
  • You from Mars or Saturn..? Comparing the cams..?
  • Cams? Pls first decide what you wanna say.. Then type. Anyhow I leave you with your idiocy where you'll accept anything Microsoft throws at you.. Spare me from you blank mind which has no reason to support his own statement, whereas I had many valid points to assert my point whereas all you did was leg pulling. Time can only be wasted with a dumb mind like you. Never replying to a blank minded person like you. Talking about Cameras while everyone talks about UX of WP.
  • Pls..? See stupid, you are no superhero here too. And don't abuse Rod in Hindi cause he doesn't know it. Secondly, I was asking Rod to leave @bleached, not you idiot. Clear your damn head first and comment. And am entitled to my opinions, who the hell are you to stop me..? And I was replying to some other person who was taking about cams. Screw.
  • Well said. When WP is about to loose it's unique OS design for the Hamburger Menu for the sake of porting apps then Why wait for ported apps here, when we can get original apps on Android/iOS right now. Top of all cuz of Hamburger menu, Still wallpaper(no parallax WP8.1 wallpaper), etc WP is gonna look like another android then why wait here at all? Instead MSFT's own apps are better on Android than on WP. Like: Skype, Office, OneNote, Outlook and Cortana is already coming there so why not Android?
  • An OS should be about much more than just the positioning of the hamburger menu or even the presence of it in the first place, correct? I mean I understand that the UI is an important part of it, but there are so many other ways MS could and should be able to differentiate from the other OS's. As MS is embracing open standards more and more, it obviously becomes more and more difficult to differentiate based on being proprietary and closed around themselves, as they were before. The differentiation will have to come from simply delivering better experiences end-to-end. Building a big and cohesive ecosystem, aso. Also, of course, technical differences in the OS matters (battery life, security, speed, aso). Granted, they have not shown this yet. But honestly, IMHO, they have never been better positioned to do so than they are now.
  • Buy Android. What's the point to still be on wp ?
  • You're not complaining about Facebook's action being on top. Stop spreading your stupidity!
  • The Facebook app has swipe from the left that does the same as hamburger menu.
  • you can swipe through it
  • Exactly why wait here on WP10 for ported apps ?? Why not buy Android/iOS for the original app experience when the OS looks alike? Top of all iOS & Android users enjoy better MSFT apps than we do here at WP OS. No need to wait for ported apps here.
    I'd sincerely suggest pls don't loose the uniqueness of your WP OS. Pls. Else ppl for sure start to leave WP than to embrace it.
  • I'm wondering if all this positive hamburger feedback is coming from Android fanboys happily trying to send WP in an Android direction.
  • True when WP is gonna look like another Android for the Ported apps. Then why should we buy a look a like of Android(WP10) that too for ported apps, why not jump aboard on to Android for Original apps experience instead of Ported apps?
  • Lol
  • Rather an android influenced windows phone, than buy an android phone right?
  • When you buy and Android Phone runing Lollipop's Material Design it will look like Windows Phone... so what's your point again of buying an Android Phone? I didn't here you complain about using FB with Actions on Top.
  • Exactly.
  • Lol.
  • Because if you buy an Android you won't be missing the apps and features. Metro design is why most bought WP. If WP becomes too Android like, there will no longer a reason to buy WP. Just get Android.
  • No reason.. Not one... Ok.
  • Well said stupid Hamburg approach the panoramic Morden UX of WP OS is amazing and unique
  • Very true.. Why wait for ported apps from android why not go for original android apps by buying android only when there is nothing unique left about WP.
  • Well Android copied the metro style from WP first ('L'). Then no one cried like now.
  • It's just one aspect... And, it's not like Android, and especially iOS, haven't embraced things from WP... Nothing wrong with that. If it works, it works, and like the article say, sometimes it's not worth being different for the sake of being different... We know MS to implement things with taste, so lets just see what the Developers Preview looks like... It's still WP.......
    .........
    Now, on the other side of that, if I may contradict myself a bit, those round icons in the new People Hub look horrific, and seriously either need to be bigger, or changed.. Yeah, I said it❗
  • Whatever crap Google or Apple throws on our faces we accept it, but why not for Microsoft then..? It's not like they aren't seeing the feedback page but if this thing gives more flexibility to the OS am up for it.
    ------------
    Personally, if WP becomes like Lollipoops or SourApple, I'll still use it cause, it will still have SD support, get frequent updates and most importantly, maintain a user's privacy. And those whining right now are most probably gonna accept it later on.
  • Let me throw a shoe on your face that is stamped by MSFT. I hope you'll accept it.. You just proved your a much bigger of a duffer than what I expected you to be. SMH! Phones are meant to be used in all situations, even in difficult situations when you only have one hand free to use it. And with Phablets in trend it is very much important to keep the menuat bottom. For that very reason of one hand usability MSFT did a easy keyboard positioning on the Phablets.
  • See it's not my problem that you can't use a phone with two hands. And there is really a big difference between a shoe and a service. Atleast give some solid argument.
    ------------
    Sunn bc, gaali dena band kar. Haam bhi de sakten hain. Terse pehle se yahn hai. Aur tere jane ke baad bhi yahin rahenge. Agar itni he problem hai to feedback page pe jaake laadna.
  • ek chotese hamburger ne uski duniya ujaad di hai...lol
  • That's stretching reality quite a bit, and on the panicky side.... It's not the end of the platform..
    I can think of many more things that spell curtains for WP... One being poor marketing, which is a real issue.
  • Marketing is really the major issue. Cause if WP would've been having 60 of marketshare, then changing the OS wouldn't've caused this chaos. Microsoft would've been having all the control. Pressing away any button they like, just like Apple. iWatch is Apple's worst product ever made. But they made, folks accepted it initially, just because of high marketshare.
  • Yes Yes Yes❗❗❗❗❗ Aman gets it people... You guys need to start listening to this man❗
  • Well if they would've heard YOU earlier about marketing....Then WP having 60-70% would've been a reality. SMDH.
    ------------
    You folks heard of Superman, Spiderman, Batman, but it's 'A-Man' who's gonna save you on Windows Central.
  • Lol.. ------------------
    .........
    Im gonna start using ®®®®®®®®®®®®®®®®®
  • How do you silly heroes market no/missing apps. Microsoft to spend $billions marketing missing apps (the main reason people don't move) makes no sense at all.
  • See Tom, apps will come when folks buy a WP, which in turn will lure the devs to this platform. We are not asking to market apps but the whole OS. The basic functionality is there.
  • You're right, and that's just the sequence things are going to have to happen... There's no other way... The apps aren't coming first, so MS has to market WP better and catch everyone who is fine with what apps WP has... There's millions more out there.
  • IOS doesn't have a high market share btw. So market share isn't the main reason people are buying the iWatch.
  • 35-45% ain't high for you..? Then what is the main reason for it's sales..? Rich folks wanting gold plated watches..?
  • 2014 IOS market share was 14.8%. Get your facts straight. Android's is like 81%. People want Apple devices because they have become a status symbol - not for specs.
  • I wanted to convey that Apple's products sell because of high popularity, and as you say 'a status symbol', and if that would've been the case with Microsoft WP would be somewhere else.
    And Apple got popularity and status symbol just because once they were number one with 80%, the share has dropped for sure, but the imprint is still there. WPs haven't reached that share yet.
  • Actually a status symbol is more likely a niche product. E.g. Rolls Royce etc. Pretty sure Rolls Royce doesn't dominate market share - Toyota does. But we won't pay a lot for a Toyota. IPhone is high end and a premium product - they're not too fussed market share.
    This is backed by ios fall in market share from 80% to 18%. Yet the market capitalisation of Apple has increased to record levels.
  • It will be remembered every time the device is picked up. If they go with these, they had better put them at the bottom where people can reach them. This has to be the single biggest and most upsetting change for long term fans that there is. This is the epitome of everything disliked about Android. Stretching to the hardest to reach spot on the screen to open a menu, followed by hunting an pecking through menu items. Sticking a finger in the eyes of a large percentage of their biggest fans isn't going to get them to "love" Windows 10 on phone. That will destroy much of their word of mouth advertising.
  • I think you never used android cause in android you can swipe from left to bring that menu
  • That is the newer versions of Android. Microsoft decided to copy the older versions that we wanted to leave behind. WP 10 does not have that ability. If it did there would be less people upset about it.
  • Yes I guess huge feedback can solve this problem
  • That is constructive, bring it in front of MS on uservoice. We have only really seen two very early builds, I think there is still opportunity to contribute with such good ideas.
  • So the pre 8.1.2 settings experience will be in every app?
  • Paul Kinslow if your analysis is true, why are many people using Facebook when Actions are on Top?
  • Two handed. Stretching because they have no choice?
  • Depends which hand you hold the phone in Paul Kinslow? I am right handed, but tend to hold the phone with my left hand. Meaning the hamburger is not the furthest point. In fact, my thumb is at the centre of the phone, which means top or bottom are equidistant. On word of mouth, that assums more people hate it than love it. I suspect with the full screen background and new look, new adaptive UI people will feel like WP is less alien to them and it might drive more retail sales. You have no idea either if you and a handful of others make up any meaningful percentage. There are always complaines about every change of design. I watched Kevin Gallows presentation on adaptive UI and I have to say it makes a whole lot of sense, and will mean apps collapse neaty to any screen size or Window shape from a single Universal app - thats quite an achivement and the "triggers" that do this in code look very simple to implement. You should watch it, it might make you appreciate the flip side of the debate.
  • BTW here is a developer comment on Hamburger:
    "I hate to say it, but the hamburger menu is pretty universal at this point. It'll help drive adoption. As much as I liked the pivot feature of Metro, it held back app development as many developers didn't know how to adapt their app for the pivot layout."
     
  • If Android 6 implements pivot, I'm sure they would figure it out rather quickly.
  • Hell Android 4 implemented pivots :(
  • That would tend to indicate that you're ambidextrous. It would be very difficult to efficiently manipulate a phone with only my left hand.
  • @hwangeruk
    Lol. Nailed it bro.
  • The percentage that use the phone one-handed on windows central is obviously quite vocal about it.  Why ignore these users while pushing that famous "no compromise" approach?  Does that mean screw you, I know better, we all know how windows 8 turned out. Quite the hit eh?  Perhaps windows central should do a poll of how many windows users use or prefer one-handed use for multi-tasking?  I say why purely imitate what android or IOS does....make it better and please both the "minority" and "majority".  At least give the power user the reasonable option to access the menu as it pleases...we are your biggest fans and marketing afterall.  I like the hamburgesa, that's fine, I care more about accessing menus with one-handed use and the biggest problem of course which is Apps Apps Apps....as much as microsoft wanted you to think that it was not important...it really was and it really is. 
  • Wise words by Rodney. Come on guys, you're fretting over a few pixels.
  • I paid real money for those pixels
  • Thank God you are not using iPhone, think about the amount of money you would have wasted with that darn "back" button since 2007. /s
  • You didn't pay anything.... Quit lying.
  • well said ... WP hasnt changed since 2010 ... thats the problem with WP. where as IOS and Android bring lot of new design changes with new release ... it feels like msft takes ages to release updates. When updates come they come with full of disappointment 
  • Eh.. have you seen Android from 2010 and today? And iOS from 2010 and today? iOS didn't change at all besides some redesigned screens that look a LOT like WP since...) and some silly background effects. Android UI doesn't look any different either. The material design thing is mostly wha they already had with influences from WP. WP with Metro started a whole new thing that other OS have been copying ever since. WP8.1 is still ahead, about to take a big step back with Win10.
  • @dysje I gotta disagree with this. Both iOS and Android look different from 2010. Android has gone through some major changes since then. 
  • Man Rodney you are right on the money with this. I can't dispute anything you just said. 
  • Well, I was serious when I said it... Lol.
  • Except, Google is moving away from the hamburger menu.
  • I haven't used google in a long time...how are they moving away from it?  if that's the case...here they are just imitating...go further microsoft...do the samsung and skin the straight to the 14 nm chip architecture...don't just post videos with visions of the future...bring the future to us.  
  • We are the ones afraid to change? We? The people that use WP and Windows 8? LOL
    We are just afraid to go back and lose everything that bring us here. Hubs, background on the photos app... I mean, what's the point when everything is the same? I have every service of MS in all platforms, it's good for them, but I can't have an interface that is good for me.
  • But do not change the home screen. Live tiles never get old! And the customization of what I want to see on my home screen is something the other two OS's will never have.
  • Yeah, nobody is talking about that... We forget that the home screen is strait up WP...
  • That's why I'm staying, it's just going to be a pain until they move the hamburger button to the bottom of the screen where you can reach it. The hamburger button explanation he gave makes sense. The reason it has to be on top only makes sense assuming severe short term memory loss where people need to constantly be reminded what the name of their document is.
  • I Agree with you  ! 
  • That hamburger menu was the horrible ending of a torturous multiyear menu transition for Android. It epitomized the worst of the worst in OS decisions for one-handed Android users, and then Microsoft decided to copy it? First there was the convenient hardware menu button at the bottom of Androids, then it was combined with one of the three other buttons. Then manufacturers decided to combine it with whatever hardware button they wanted, then it went to maybe hardware, maybe onscreen buttons with a long press, maybe. After all this annoyance, they ended by putting it in the absolute worst spot possible for one handed, right handed users. After all the pulling our hair out and having our requests ignored for the stupidest OS decision in the history of Android, Microsoft decides to copy it? When the vast majority of their users have small budget phones, are right handed, and use it with one hand? At least Google later decided to let people swipe from the left to open that menu, which helps a lot. MS didn't even do that. This decision deserves the wrath of users
  • If Menu's on Top are so horrible stop using Apps such as Facebook to post here! You're just showing your ignorance!
  • Btw, in many android apps that hamburger menu can be opened with a swipe, just like the WP client for the Russian social network vk. Pretty much usable and can be easily accessed with one hand. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Let me just repeat my comment from above: this is an early build. They are taking feedback. Good ideas especially, I would think. Swiping to bring in the menu is one such idea, I would think. Put the suggestion forth on uservoice. The one-hand-operation discussion is one of the oldest in the (still young) smartphone era. It started with the removal of buttons altogether. Until then it was possible to operate a phone with one hand and no eyes. :) Cheers
  • Spotify for windows phone use the hamburger menu pretty well!
  • I really would like people who say "Spotify app uses hamburger well" to stop. Why? Because it doesn't! It's a pain in the ass to have to go to the exact opposite corner we are used to going to in order to access a search function, even if you can swipe in from the left, you still have to reach up to hit the word "search". Also, the app crashes regularly and navigation is soooooooo counterintuitive. Spotify is actually a perfect model... OF WHAT WE WP USERS DON'T WANT?!!
  • Im sorry RHoudek, but thats not true I dont think. I just ran spotify on a Lumia 735. Holding the phone in my left hand. I can hit the hamburger menu item easily. I can also swipe the left pane back by moving my thumb anywhere from top the bottom of the screen and just pull the pane that moved to the right, back left. I can hit Hamnurger, then Search easily. And having the box to type the search query at the top, whilst the keyboard appears on the bottom seems to make absolute sense. (the apps does not crash for me, but its irrelavent for the purposes of this UI debate, you are just reaching for anything now to bolster you position. Stop that :) )
  • In fact, Ive just noticed on Spotify that you dont even need to hit the Hamburger, just swipe from the left. This is not a WP issue. iOS and Android have been wrestling with the same design decisions for years. Read here as an example: http://uxmag.com/articles/adapting-ui-to-ios-7-the-side-menu
  • Actually reaching (pun intended) is exactly what i don't want to do. Firstly you based your argument on holding your phone with your left hand. Most people are right handed. Second the search bar would still be on top if the action of the keyboard popping up forced the bar to move up with it. As for crashing, it does crash less since the last update. But it still messes up a lot in the sense that i'll be one place, then go somewhere else, then be unable to get back to where i was. I also find inconsistencies in where i'll be taken when i tap the tile. Sometimes it's where i left off, other times it's the main screen. But you are right, this isn't about the quality of the Spotify app, just that their use of a hamburger is just as terrible as every iteration of the hamburger I've seen. Side note, all this talk of hamburgers is making me really hungry.
  • I am right handed. But hold the phone in my left hand (I am going to watch people hold their phone now to see what they do) BUT, you don't have to hit the hamburger. Even holding the phone in your right hand, you just swipe from left to right and the menu appears.
  • I know that, still doesn't change that you have to reach up to hit the word 'search'
  • I upvoted you after opening spotify and accessing the menu with a left swipe.  That's nice but I agree with the constructive criticism that the menu items remain should not remain on top unless you access it with two handed use...Would it be difficult to make these menus scrollable or make the app smart enough to recognize where the user is swiping from to justify it and make it convenient for the user.   Spotify is on the right track...just needs to be fine tuned.
  • What about Tiramisu? Or Hotdog menus? Not EVERYONE eats hamburgers xD haha. In all seriousness, I don't mind :)
  • I dont think the problem is having a menu (hamburger is just a different icon from "...") but the problem is the position of the menu. As far from fingers as possible :(. I tought its not a big deal until I actually used the new mail app in W10M. Its a disaster.
  • What I like about hamburgers in android is you can swipe from the left end of screen to bring the menu but in wp I never seen that feature
  • That's the main reson people on windows phone hate hamburger menus: because it's a terrible adoption of androids hamburgers. you don't have to touch the icon on the top left, simply swipe from left to right. compare apps like onefootball or onedrive, they look almost the same on all plattforms, only the windows phone version is stupid to navigate.  
  • Microsoft should think about it cause there own apps on android like outlook has that feature and it's very easy to use
  • madphone1 have you tried the News App with 20 pages? You'll have to swipe 20 times!
  • On WP, OneDrive has left-to-right and right-to-left swipes for files, photos etc. How do you think that will work if left-to-right swipe is reserved for hamburger menu? It will leave on right-to-left for pivots, that would be stupid and confusing. Don't you think?
  • Swiping from the edge will give you the hamburger menu
  • ...and you will be constantly and accidentally triggering this menu, which will be very frustrating.
  • Never happens to me. Swiping from the very edge is nothing you do accidentally.
  • Feedback Feedback Feedback
  • Come oooooooonnnnnn.... Could people stop pulling out the "then send them feedback!" card everytime somebody describes something they don't like? Isn't posting about it here feedback enough? Because MS employees do read the comments and forums here, if I'm not mistaken.
    Also why do they need feedback for every little change? Surely they have their own testing teams and uhmm...common senses in place?
  • Why not? if we have that option we must use it.. giving feedback is not a bad thing... They need our feedback to improve the os and that's why technical previews are given to everyone for testing and giving feedback
  • We do read and share this stuff internally. Thing is product groups can't read every forum rant and put in every request as often they're counter to each other (e.g. "hamburgers suck" "no they rule!"). They're not dumb and do a lot of usability testing. Thing to remember is people like us on this forum are niche. 95% of population doesn't read tech sites and keep up with every nuance and change. Average consumer really is simpler than you'd expect and that's what they're catering to. Yes, we are the rabid fans that help evangelize but in the end these are all business decisions that need to be made.
  • I know they'r not dumb and do lot of testing I'm just saying that they should implement hamburger in the same way as they used for there own apps in android "swipe from left"
  •   Its sending email to someone or phone call to request something done vs logged ticket/service request (Feedbackapp). Email or comments they can ignore. Feedback/Ticket - they have to process.
  • Microsoft health app allows this
  • You can do it in Spotify
  • This is bothering me more and more. Nav on WP already uses swipe left and right. Why would it be better to swipe left, then press your option? If you eaither have to reach accross the device, to access the hamburger, or swipe to access the hamburger, you still have to take more steps than the current WP ui. Adding the swipe to access the hamburger, is still swiping, SO JUST LEAVE THE SWIPING ALONE AND DON'T USE THE HAMBURGER!
  • same here.  swype feels more natural
  • What if there are 10 options and you want to reach to the 5th one...
    In current wp pivots you have to swipe 5 times to reach there but with hamburger you can do it in 2 steps because of vertical menu
    I still love those panoramic views but Microsoft couldn't find any room to improve them so we have to deal with it
  • There shouldn't be ten options. Period. If you have that much stuff, you need more heirarchy, or you can put the options under the dots.
  • I don't know why ms just don't use those dots/bottom ellipse as a hamburger menu
  • Now they use both, so we have hamburger  up top and dots downstairs. :/ Its terrible!
  • Read the article❗❗❗❗❗❗❗❗
  • True, there shouldn't. It's also quite common in those situations to have 1-2 most important options as pivot items, and then have a 3rd pivot item that is similar to a hamburger menu (except it is way easier to navigate to).
  • Swiping multiple times to get to the right screen (when mostly you can't even see all the titles so you don't know how many times to swipe) takes longer than swipe-> single button press imo.
  • Because sometimes, just sometimes, I dont want to swipe between 6 pivots.
  • agree..at least it's some sort of solution...maybe msft can come up with a better one? 
  • I still don't agree.   Think about this: How did Windows Phone 7, WP8, and WP 8.1 work without Hamburgers and with swipe navigation, AND JUST NOW it suddenly won't work anymore? It's because they are making a problem out of nowhere. Making problems out of something that wasn't a problem. Why? Because omg iOS and Android. If iOS and Android had problems and they chose to solve it the bad way, why does WP have to follow that bad solution, even though we didn't have a problem in the first place? The 2 reasons that were mentioned in the video (convergion and porting) are barely a problem. First, Windows across all devices doesn't have to be completely the same. It also shouldn't because you'll hardly find ONE design that fits every device there is. Also, they're acting as if they'll make those two systems completely the same, and only this is the problem. And what will actually happen is Windows will vary a lot across devices, but they'll all have crappy navigation in common. That's great. One Windows, woo-hoo! As for porting - who cares. Just think about it for a second before agreeing with it - MS wants to change WP because people from other OSes don't understand how to use it.
    Would Google do that for you? Would Apple do that for you? No. Thogh luck buddy, eather pay someone to learn the OS or learn it yourself and shut up. It's like if you invited someone to your house, and he started redecorating your house because he doesn't like it.   My personal oppinion (people still have rights to oppinions, right?) is that WP (or Windows or whatever) should avoid those BAD solutions, and eather stay with what we have, and what already works, or implement something better. They're acting like hamburgers are the only option. Look at sailfish with their completely gesture-oriented design and UX, and other OSes.
  • On guestures -- If it hasn't been apparent by Windows 8, plus any of those wierd one off tablets with huge guesture based UI, they're terrible. People do not respond well to touch UI that isn't putting all the options in front of them. Hamburgers aren't the perfect solution, but they're way better than swiping.
  • Way better than swiping? Yeah well that's just like your opinion man. The future is obviously a combination of the two and I think that's where Microsoft is going with it.
  • Windows 8/8.1 gestures are the best on any OS (though I haven't used) bb10 or Ubuntu touch.
  • Look! Someone with some sense! Hamburger menus suck, and repeated studies have shown this. Why do we keep trying to shoehorn them in anyway?
  • The public has spoken: Having a "different" UI on the phone does not sell. Face it, Metro failed. Sure, it was well intentioned, but it does not work on PCs or laptops, nor does the public want to have to relearn how to use a UI on a phone. Did you know Windows Phones have a very high rate of return? Guess why. This and apps are hindering sales.
  • That's amazing if people really are that narrow sighted. Is sounds like a case of touchpad vs trackpoint. Everytime I see a ThinkPad use using the touchpad I always ask why? They usually answer that its easier. Now, I will bet that anyone who would give the trackpoint a spin for a week or two, will start asking the same question as I do; "why aren't there trackpoints on all laptop in the world, because it rocks!". Same with actions at the bottom; IT ROCKS!
  • lol, I am 100% on board with the Trackpad/Trackpoint thing. I have a new X1 here and I KNOW people love Trackpoint, but it is soooo weird for me. I still have yet to give it a fair shake, which reinforces the notion that "better does not always result in higher sales".
  • Well, my first ever ThinkPad (e50) didn't have a touchpad so I had to,get used to it. Now I couldn't dream about getting a laptop without it. Not even the new "fancy" gestures that touchpads have can convince me of anything else, than they are a shortcut to getting your joints in your entire arm damaged. I mean, seeing people waving their arms about the place and then not stop to ask if this couldn't be done easier. Gees...
  • Mortenvs, you wrrote these two things within an hour of each other and you question why current iOS and Android users won't give WP a fair shake when they stop into a cell store? 1: That's amazing if people really are that narrow sighted. 2: My first ThinkPad didn't have a touchpad so I had to get used to [TrackPoint]. I couldn't dream about getting a laptop without it. Not even the new "fancy" gestures that touchpads have can convince me of anything else. A sale may not be made in 30 seconds, but it can be lost that fast. Users like us, the people who saw and liked WP early, saw thoughtfulness in its design. Others see cut-off text, missing buttons (i.e., no divider lines in lists and no ">" at the right), and an inability to jump directly to the third of 5 tabs.
  • My first laptop ever wasn't a ThinkPad. I'd already been through the deal with touchpads, so the two aren't contradicting each other. I'd done one think decided to try something new, and I wont go back now I've tasted paradise. That's what I meant.
  • Yeah, but the iPhone and Andorid folks might also think that -- so they won't give WP a chance. I should note that I'm not particularly fond of the coming interaction homogenization. As we prepare to modernize our WP app, I'm desparately trying to figure out how to hold on to some of the good design. The fact that things works similarly doesn't mean that they have to look the same. It's in the gap between UI and UX that many developers will be spening a lot of time this summer. For what it's worth, the Windows Phone app has only 1,000 downloads vs 8,900 for Android and 11,400 for iOS. That's just a 4.7% share for WP, yet its reviews are the best and some of them specifically call out design. The WP app still exists only because I'm both in charge of overall technology direction (during the day) and the WP developer (on nights and weekends).
  • just a lil off topic here but Daniel the navigation of the comment section here is really bad for articles with comments that require more that one page. To have to scroll ALL THE WAY back to the top to get to the next section/page makes very little sense. There should definitely be page selection at the bottom or both. I also still cant figure out the sorting of top comments but i'll end here.
  • Just think of how people responded to Windows 8/8.1, they are incredibly resistant to change, no matter how obviously better it is.
  • That's true. Windows 8 is a great OS with only one big flaw. During the installation there should have been an option to boot to desktop. A desktop with a Windows 7 style start menu. If they'd doen that, I'm sure it would have been a successful OS.
  • The public has spokem? Come on Daniel. The reason Windows Phone doesn't sell has nothing to do with navigation. That's a cop-out. It doesn't sell because our app store is lacking and the ones we do have rarely match those on iOS and often never receive updates. The other reason is mindshare. People have no idea what a Windows Phone is, go ahead, ask a random person on the street. Pretending like navigation is somehow affecting user adoption is innacurate. People return Windows Phones necause the one app they had on their iPhone is not available in the Windows Store.
  • Not a cop out. People do not try WP because it is too different. It's foreign. It's bizarre. Some even consider the OS boring. Go talk to carriers about return rates on WP and ask the main reasons. Lack of apps and it's too different. Lack of apps is partially addressed by the Win 10 model as it aligns design principals closer to iOS, Android and Windows desktop. If you lower the barrier for app portability, including in design, you make it easier for companies to bring over their apps. Look at Facebook and their "one app design" model. That should tell you everything.
  • We should perhaps also talk to carriers about their representation of WPs. Are they actually doing a good job selling them? I don't think so from what I've seen. I've been talking with a major Scandinavian dealer for a couple of weeks now about their attitude. I'm trying to get them to remove references to MixRadio and Cortana, because those aren't available in Denmark, and because that surely will create furious customers when they discover they didn't get free unlimited music...
    Also, how on earth can different not be a huge sales argument? Carriers/dealers are in a very big way not helping sales.
  • Carriers suck at selling WP.
  • While agree with you for the most part I also understand why the carriers dont push WP. Why should they have to spend the time and resources to train staff on why WP is awsome. They have 2 other oses that everyone gets and understands. They may think that WP is greatest OS since sliced bread but if it costs them anything on the bottom line they would be silly to put any effort into selling it. It is there job to sell phones not an ecosystem. If it takes 30 min to sell a customer on a WP device and it takes 5 minutes to sell them on a IOS device and 10 minutes to sell a Android device where do you think the effort is going to be. In an 8 hr day a rep could sell 16 WP's and 48 droids and 96 IOS devices.  (these are not real numbers as we all know) MS has to do something to make carriers want to push WP being the best in a consumer driven market is not always a recipe for success. It pains me to say it but Apple has magic and Android has Volume and both had a huge headstart and MS at this point is not relevant. That was my business perspective. My personal perspective is a bit easier to understand.  STUPID FREAKIN SHEEP    
  • That's all "true" but how about this for a business perspective: Why stock items you don't want to sell? It's like a drugstore stocking up on a cure for cancer but leaves the drug hidden in the back room. Maybe the new drug is different and unorthodox, but its way better than anything else out there. Is that better for business? This is the message if been trying to across to carriers here in Denmark for a very long time now. So far, they aren't listening :/
    PS, this is in NO WAY intended too offend or make an OS as important as this awful illness! It simply an illustration of what I think businesses are doing wrong.
  • I dont disagree with you. However I would ask you this. If you were the carrier and the money was going into your bank account would you have your staff selling what paid the bills and made investors happy or having them push what makes you feel is a superior product. And if you didnt have investors how long would you be willing to watch your bank account go backwards knowing all you have to do is have your staff sell what makes money. Most will sell what is easiest to sell.  
  • You're right. It just pains me to see something might end up on a Wiki page titled "they tried, but nobody cared" :'(
  • I agree with Daniel about people's perspective towards WP. Here in India people literally ask me that why do I use a Windows Phone and not Android? And they make it sound like WP is not a smartphone OS. People have huge misconceptions about WP. Microsoft really needs to change people's perspective towards WP and this new familiar UI is one huge step in that direction and I support them. The live tiles are already radical enough, at least the rest of the UI should be familiar if you want to attract customers.
  • You really think they ask you that because of the UI. lol times a dozen.
  • They ask me because they think WP is an inferior OS compared to Android. I am talking about the image of WP in people's minds. If only you would have read my comment correctly.
  • Rohit i too am using windows phone,people do ask me the same question,but for most people the issue is not different UI its the app gap, MS is trying the common UI as android to make it easy for developers to port their apps, may be MS will help in running of android apps on wp in next few weeks. Will IT increase the market share have to be seen. Public perception will not change with the change of UI and the thing that being different is not getting WP anywhere is wrong, it is here because it was different and new and easy to use,after my Nokia 5240, lumia 820 was the first smartphone from this generation of OSes, it took me total of 20-25 mins max to learn the os, without any guide in the phone and the os. Any OS should be easy to use its design should make users learn easily through use not by some user guides like android does, don't believe me try setting up moto g for first time. So the question is will these UI changes bring more customers to WP, may be may b not , but it surely is making the users(some) feel left out however small they may be, so lets see what MS pans out to us in near future but be sure putting same UI is not going to make samsungs , micromaxes, Xiaomis to jump ship. That ship has sailed a long time ago. But jumping ship from WP will start and only option left is iOS or android. When I can get better and all MS services on android and all the apps that MS is going to run on windows phone with the same UI as a galaxy or moto why bother about a Lumia.
  • I understand that UI is not gonna change the current situation. But what I said was from my experience. Whenever my friends are buying a new phone, I recommend some Lumia to them, but they say no because of the radically different design. I have actually seen a lot of people buy Android just because it has icons. The new design might help a tiny bit in sales. I agree that the real problem is apps and I hope the Universal app model helps improve the situation. I may be wrong with the UI design thing, but I just said that from experience.
  • I bought WP, because it didn't have icons :D The countless walls of icon grids in Android just seem cluttered and boring to me
  • So ahould MS abandon their tile deaign? that's what people first see when they see a Windows Phone and that would be a much more likely reason for explaining why consumers find Windows Phone "too different" not a random elipses in an app. And I speak with consumers all of the time and ask why they switched from WP and why they won't give it a chance and design is rarely an issue for them. it's apps, apps, apps and relevance. They don't want a phone nobody knows. What is a Lumia 1020? They have no clue. They know what an iPhone is and they know what a Galaxy is. Microsoft's problem os not design and navigation, it's apps and relevance. If you honestly believ changing the nav model will do anything to change WP's mindshare or market share than I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. And I have many developer friends and no one gives shit about whether they can reuse a menu item in their app. it's about money and users and WP doesn't offer either. Fooling ourselves to believe that by helping devs reuse their app layout they might bring it to Windows Phone is ridiculous. The tools are there already, if they wanted their app on WP it would be there.
  • The app problem concerns an amalgamation of issues, but design also plays a part in that plan. API play a big part in my opinion too. Microsft has to update and create more efficent APIs in order to make app developement much better and easier for developers. As it is now, developers have to mix and mtach API from WIndows Phone 8/8.1 Silverlight, WinRT/WinPRT, to get the features that they want in an app. Often times because of the lack of an eqivalent API on Windows to rival platforms, developers have to send a lottle of time making work arounds. that is why Windows 10 is so important. Hopefully All the old API will be updated and converged in the UAP in Windows 10. If that Windows 10 does not implement its APIs properly, then that will be the true fall of Windows, not hamberger menus. Developers have wanted spit view API fro a while to bring parity with iOS and Android. Why does the average everyday Joe want to tell developers what opition they should have available. Compromise is the savior of peace.
  • I don't think that they need to abandon tiles because it's easy to explain them as "super icons". (Widgets are somewhere more difficult to explain because they may have interaction controls.) But saying that the calendar tile shows the day, date, and the next appointment while iOS only shows just the date is quick and easy -- and it buys the sales rep and the handset a few more seconds to sell itself to the consumer.
  • The Tiles are fine and the exploding tile concept if implemented would be cool.  One thing that's always annoyed me is how unorganized it seems.  And have mercy if your tiles are accidentally deleted or moved around.  You have to "organize" it again.  I always thought it would be good to save the tiles in profiles so they would have a set organization if they were deleted.  Furthermore, it would be better if when scrolling the apps were divided by "pages" yes...something similar to android and IOS but vertically.  and just thinking about it now..maybe that concept would be good across the board even with the Windows metro menu...something to give it a set definition and it's not just and endless scroll. 
  • As far as the money goes when it comes to developing apps, I for one when I was used android looks for free apps, and when I didn't find it for free I downloaded the apk from.an outside source and sandboxed the play store checkin so I could use it. Since being on WP I have bought and paid for.hundreds of apps, stuff I don't or rarely use anymore simply in an effort to support the devs because WP is simply the best experience in a windows environment. I say that because I'm a fan boy, but also because since Windows 8 and WP8 I have gone from using pirated OSes and hacked phones to paying for everything, simply to support it all. The experience is unmatched anywhere. If ur in an apple environment, i.e. iPhone, iMac etc, it may be close, same for android, but how many people stay within one market? There isn't a Android PC and chromebooks are no where close to being useful. 90% of the world uses windows pcs. And when stayng in that environment, windows has the best experience hands down. So I, and many others, and prob most on this site have no problem paying for apps to support the devs. We want WP to succeed. The user base may be smaller, but its by no means cheap.
  • wrong, you feel that they have that opinion on windows phone due to UI as one of the factors, i'll say why WP has low penetration,while pathetic marketing from MS and partners and lack of apps is creating a conception out of common people, lack of trivial and basic features, removal of great ones, deviation of an ergonomic UI just for the sake of familiarity rather than usability is driving away power users.
  • Allow me a quick response to this as well. I managed a T-Mobile store for two years. I can tell you, anecdotally, that people weren't returning Windows Phones in mass, and certainly weren't doing so because it was too different or foreign.   By far the biggest complaint I received about WP was, "I heard this doesn't have any apps." No other objection was raised nearly as much. Occasionally, I'd have someone say, "Oh, that looks too complicated." Then I'd show them how it worked and the light bulb would go on. But, apps were the number one reason sales were lower and the number two reason was that people wanted the latest greatest hardware which WP tended not to have.
  • Thank you. Someone who actually knows.
  • US people. Don't forget. US people, US carriers. MS is doomed to fail because..simply..US
  • Considering I sell windows phones I have to disagree with you there Daniel.
  • Then why even have an OS that isn't Android? The facebook app is a perfect example of an app that doesn't subscribe anymore to the design language. The days of pinning people and semantic zoom and the non-app bar elements of the design language we loved are going down the drain too. So are we really all to expect windows to become an android app launcher for 80% of the apps?
  • Also was iOS and Android foreign when they first came out?  Of course they were, but people learn and adapt if they like/want something.  The Apple Watch has a very different interface but that isn't going to stop anyone because of the demand for the phone.  MS failed to create demand, there have been more ads for the watch then I've seen WP over the past 4 years. If WP was like ios/android I wouldn't even have gone the WP route.  If they just want to copy iOS and Android why would I stick around to get some table scraps?
  • Are you the #1 apologist for Microsoft?  I've suspected this for the longest.  It's impossible for you guys to say something negative about Microsoft or even say something contrary to anything they are doing.  Reading your comments all I get out of it is Microsoft WILL be more Android in the future so therefore resistance is futile.  But more absurd is to say the OS is "too different".  And that's that's what causing lack of sales?  Wow!  Oh well, I'm sure Microsoft will reward you guys with some secret intel for your lack of courage.   
  • Finally!!! :)
    I am tired explaining to everyone that Metro UI is the reason of bad marketshare! I was with WP from wp7 and gues what? Tired :)
    Tiles on main screeen - mess amd borring. Why? First because it is not constant. You have long "fabric" of tiles and you just know that some tile for particular app should be somewhere dow to left. With icon style desktop, after while, you know where icon for app is located. I really hope MS will give us option to install shell. I am ready to make one if needed.
  • It doesn't sell well because it was so late and has to fight the deep market penetration of iOS and Android.
  • When you have to catter to the desires of a huge consumer market, or a large number of people, it is difficult to implement an idea that is universally, and unanimously accepted and liked by all. I don't necessarily like the plit view pane [hamberger menu] in my opionin, but I accept that compromises have to be made for the major good of everyone else. This is no new argument. Whether it is in politics, or in organisational structures, the question is always raised of whose voice to listen to? The answer most of the time is - the majority. That way you have the least amount of peolple who are dissatisfied. Is it unfair to the minority? It depends on the balance of the benefits and disadvantages of any decision. Similar to the arguments to increase taxes for the rich - is it unfair to those who can afford it? Maybe; but we as the majority seem to have little problem with that delivery of "justice", as in our eyes it is fair. I don't envy Microsoft's position in making these decisions at all. Since the emergence of the "Cool and Fun" companies running the market, everyone is quick to judge the "outside, old and uncool" company, for not keeping up with the cool crowd. "Damed if you do, and damed if you don't", is what microsoft has to deal with when making most of their decisions. Whether it is a hamberger menus, gestures, or WindowsRT, "Haters gonna hate!" Its just a matter of how many people will hate.
  • In my personal experience there is plenty of interest in WP and the lack of uptake is due to lack of apps, not the OS.
  • And yet it was one of wps major selling points. Why should anyone go for the weaker implementation of something they could get on Android and iOS in a better state and with much more apps?
  • I bought 6 windows phones specifically because I liked the design language of the OS. If it weren't for that, I would have bought Android because of so many more features and apps.
  • What is the point of WP then? We've put up with the app gap and features gap because we preferred the design language. If Android design wins, not because it's better, but because it is more familiar, why shouldn't everyone just buy Android? What reward will there be for doing without all those things we were missing if they go this route?
  • I suppose the point is that those things that you describe as having missed out on are missing partly because of the OS design language. MS seems to feel that to bring the OS up to speed, they need to sacrifice their unique interface. This is probably a good decision. Regardless of how much impact (or otherwise) Metro has had on the app situation, one thing is certain and that is that the design hasn't been good enough to drive adoption - so the question is, why shouldn't MS go after a more standard design? They have scraped a market share of ~5% globally which has showed no meaningful signs of proportional growth - it's time for a change. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Being able to attach whatever I want to an email, recording a phone conversation, etc, etc.  There are numerous basic things that were not included that had nothing to do with the design language. They had to do with the limitations of the OS. Developers were not allowed or able to make those things available, and neither did Microsoft.
  • You think the phones didn't sell because it had a different UI?  There are at least 5 better reasons(can probably come up with 10) why WP hasn't sold 1. fewer apps 2. lower quality/ outdated apps 3. behind the curve hardware 4. poor advertising 5. lagging behind ios/android features (always playing catchup)
  • 6. Windows 10 is not here yet.
  • 1: I don't care. I hate clutter. That's why i chose WP 2: Mehh, yes/no. 3: It's not about GHZ, GB and GPU's. It's about architecture. Apple was behind for years, but always on top! 4: Who cares about that? 5: Well, ironically, everyone played catchup to features on WP that is now being aborted. Great huh!?
  • " Well, ironically, everyone played catchup to features on WP that is now being aborted. Great huh!?" Exactly, that's why I'm not happy.
  • Add another one... 6. They insisted in calling it "Windows" Phone. There are so many people that have a negative connotation with Microsoft and Windows. 
  • I almost don't know what it's called anymore.... MS just can't seem to think ahead on anything. It's really starting to bum me out!
  • I tend to agree with a lot of things you say, Daniel. But, I'm not sure on this one. You said, "Having a different UI on the phone does not sell," and, "...nor does the public want to have to relearn how to use a UI on a phone."   So, if those things are true then I ask this, will the UI never advance then? If the public doesn't want to learn anything new, then are we conceding that in 50 years computer and device UIs will be exactly the same as they are now? How about in 100 years?   Does Microsoft toss out Live Tiles at some point because it's a "different UI"? Will we then only have the grid of icons for decades, centuries?   At various points throughout human history, we have had to learn something new. We have had to learn how to do things differently. If we hadn't, we would never have advanced. As a note, these are sincere questions in response to the line of thinking that anything different is destined to fail, because people will balk at, shun, or refuse to learn it. And, to be fair, people do all of those things when faced with something different. By our nature, many of us fear, resist, and hate change. We fear, resist, and hate that which is different. But, change is inevitable. 
  • The guy on Reddit argues quite strongly that, actually, the Metro design language is behind Android/IOS in many ways, including in the case of the pivots. Go read it - regardless of whether you agree, the guy is clearly more informed on the subject than the vast, vast majority of people who comment on these stories - he has given some long and often well argued explanations. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • @Wyn6 Spot on!  You make too much sense.  But Daniel is a Microsoft apologist.  He cannot and will not say anything contrary to what Microsoft is doing.  They are here to sell and convince you Microsoft is doing the right thing.
  • Daniel isn't hear to do that. Go reassess your life please.
  • Apple specifically tells developers NOT to use a hamburger menu (in fact, it doesn't even appear in their programming language) because it is bad UI/UX:  http://blog.manbolo.com/2014/06/30/apple-on-hamburger-menus Google is moving towards pivot control just like Windows Phone which has resulted in extremely positive responses:  http://wmpoweruser.com/google-dumps-hamburger-in-recycle-bin/ Android also has Material Design which puts an action button (such as new email) right by your thumb...good UI/UX. People WILL learn the new UI of a phone.  Remember, iPhone came with an instruction booklet almost because people didn't know how to use it (even to this day, I see the Apple store packed with people "learning" how to use iPhone and iPads...even my friends and coworkers who have them don't even know half of how to use them).  Bottom line, if Microsoft is just making an Android knockoff and the only feature we truly have is live tiles...why would ANYONE want to go there?  They just never explained/taught how to use their UI/UX...which is a major failing.  Everyone I show love is (and they are on iPhone/Android).  It's that simple....but something Microsoft won't do. I do agree that the "old" pivot/panorama from Windows Phone 8 days needs to go away.  "big letters" "cut off letters"...yes, get rid of it.  But new style pivot control is beautiful...MSN apps, CBS News app, etc, use it very well and it is very intuitive.  Cnet recently said:  "These apps look like modern smartphone apps, which is great. But Windows Phone's multi-paned persona was unique, and in some cases (like the calendar app) it offered a genuinely useful alternative. And then there's the matter of moving many of the menu buttons from the bottom of the display up to the top, where they're much harder to hit. I hope Microsoft doesn't stray too far from the original Windows Phone vision." There can be a happy medium...and Modern UI does need to be updated...but not just to be a copycat but to bring a true productivity feature.  The hamburger menu by itself just isn't it.  Microsoft was on to something, and sucked at teaching users how to use it. P.S.:  apps don't hinder sales as much as we all might think...look at Android.  They had a horrible app situation, but people bought them in buckets because there was no alternative to the premium iPhone.  Now, they are essentially equal to Apple (in some ways).  Microsoft just can't explain why Windows Phone is better, but it's not hard to do.  I've shown those who bought shiny new iPhones a Windows Phone and they reply is often "I like that".  Even in the Microsoft Store, I grimace because they just don't know how to sell these things.  Then again if you are a teenager who needs the latest app to be cool....well, I agree with you 100% then.
  • Apple tells its developers not to use the hamburger menu because there's no system back button and it completely clashes with the default UI paradigm of the platform. iOS solved this problem with the tab bar down at the bottom that pretty much caps you at 5 sections (yes, there can be more, nothing but the music app does it). However, the *real* problem with the hamburger menu in general is overstuffing of too much content that isn't related to each other. The problem isn't the tool, it's the person using it. And you'll have that problem on iOS, Android, or Windows Phone. It's a double-edge sword that most designers/developers use terribly, HOWEVER, that doesn't mean the sword isn't sharp.  
  • With regards to Google moving towards pivot control, I don't think that's the case. They use it in apps where it is appropriate, nothing more. Incidentally, their implementation is often superior to Metro in that they usually (always?) display the headings for the pivots below the title bar, meaning the user always knows how to get to a particular screen - with MS you
    blindly scroll across until you land on your desired page, assuming you know that it's even there. I agree with you on the hamburger menu being bad though. Too often is it used to stuff features and options into a catchall area. I agree with Apple's stance that if it isn't important enough to be integrated into the app or contained on the top/bottom menu bars, then it should be binned. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • I hope your sent this in through the feedback app. Somehow though I don't think Satya will listen when it comes to WP. I'm not against everything he does, but it seems as if WP is low on his list and I feel it should be at least equal to the priority he's placed on other platforms.
  • Well put and spot on! God I hope Microsoft reads this...
  • Boom. This guy gets it. The boys at Redmond are moving backwards and its really painful.
  • wow, do i agree with what you have to say...kuddos.  I just checked out the CBS app and MSN News app ...very nice...love how the pivots works. Only thing I don't agree with is the app situation..it does matter more than we think....with android there was no other choice and people adjusted....now ther are two alternative OSes...windows is less compelling with fewer apps.
  • Almost forgot...even the Office team said that, specifically, Office on [Windows] phones must be optomized for "one handed" usage (two handed usage is not identified as a normal requirement).  They specifically said that and it's a requirement.  Will have to see what ships, I guess, since there is no way to do that with a phablet (which are increasing in sales every single year) or even a 5" screen (popular).
  • @Avegas11 You've made some good posts. I don't agree with you on Apps, lack of apps definitely hinders sales. Go to HOTUKDeals website, search "Lumia" and read the thread on cheap Windows Phones. Full of advoacy, and people asking if they should buy the Lumia, with  many responses of "WP is good, if you don't need certain apps" its all about the apps. We've even had articles on here from people who work in stores who tell you customers will ask specifcally at retail if the apps they want the most are available. About Office, and the 1 handed use.  2 things spring to mind. Are you suggesting seriously that people will edit office docs one handed? (The notion makes me smile) And what is with this one handed usage? Surely most people use  a smartphone "two handed" most of the time, one hand to hold the phone and the other hand to use its index finger to prod and poke?  [ I am defintely going to spend more time looking at people using phones from now on to see what  the truth is on this matter :) ]  
  • Most everyone who has had some kind of passing interest in my windows phone, has been because of the design. They're "bored" of their iPhones. And android to some is confusing. The reason they dont switch however is solely due to the app situation, not because "metro failed". The very last thing that made windows phone stick out was its design, which is going away to mimic another OS. So its kind of perplexing to see you say this...
  • One word: Feedback
  • Perplexing? Sorry to say but not really. ;)
  • I don't want to operate my phone with hands. I want to talk to Cortana and let her do everything for me!!! :-)
  • Because Americans are... Well... Not too smart to say the least? It's idiocracy, the rules of majority, that don't want to learn anything. Almost all the people I know choose WP over Android. And most WP over iOS.
  • So, no apple watches should sell... totally different UI... completely new thing to learn.
  • Yet, afaik, WP has consistently had VERY high user satisfaction ratings (even without all the apps), very close to iOS. We don't need to agree to everything MS says.. ;)
  • The dots and swipes are definitely NOT the reason people haven't bought WP. There are really only 2 reasons. 1. Poor marketing, which contributed to #2. Lack of apps. If MS insists on poorly replicating the UI of the other guys then there will be even less of a reason to use WP.
  • Daniel, look at this poor bastard's review of Lumia 930 (he is an average Joe). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg5rL8Z6O2A The ONLY reason he doesn't like Windows Phonw is because there are no Google Voice and Runkeeper apps. He doesn't mention confusing pivots nor unfimiliarity :)
  • Why bother use WP then? When I hear "relearn"..fuck this! I go nuts hearing this. You will always get hammered by dumb people that don't adapt to change. Metro failed (and I'm sorry for saying this) because of US market. Metro and win 8.1 had a great adoption in Europe. The least part of the world where Win8 was advertised. I hate so much Microsoft for their stupid focus on US market which to be honest is by far not the smartest. Just as a side comparison regarding ignorance of the US people: they don't fuckin know who is Snowden (just watching the John Oliver show where he asks random people is so terrifying, random people just had no damn clue what that guy did for them).
  • That show was awesome.
  • This!
  • In my unimformed opinion, I'd say Apps are primarily hindering sales...then the lack of a polished UI due their bipolar decisions are hindering sales.
  • Well sure, but I'm going to play devil's advocate with a counterpoint: If Windows 10 For Phones™ adopts a similar UI to attract potential Android and iOS switchers, what's the sales line/incentive *to* switch?  Wouldn't Microsoft just be offering a copy cat version of Android, minus all the apps and hardware variations? I guess it's similar to a candidate of a particular political party running for office-----if the candidate emulates their stands and ideas to that of a rival or opponent, then why choose said candidate, when you can have the real thing? It could be said that Microsoft was selling a different UI experience and way of doing things on a smartphone (Metro, Hubs, 'smoked by Windows Phone'); once you play "me too", then what's the point?  Just create a TouchWiz type Android overlay and call it a day.
  • It would be like Canadian music. The same, only worse.
  • I doubt that WP will sell if they copy the UI of Android/iOS. When all the Apps look the same but on WP there re so many less apps and they often lack far behind in functions, why the hell should I buy a WP? Just because of live tiles? I see the point that Windows 8 and WP are not consinstent, but I never felt this way. I first noticed it by watching the video. And I don't think that the WP UI is bad, even my parents which are not very easy when it comes to tech, learnt fast how WP works. I just keep up with the lack of Apps in WP, because imo it is a very nice OS and there are some fvery beautiful apps out there. When MS i seriously aout consinstency I will switch to anothe platform and never ever ask the question "is this app available for my platform?"   Just 2 two cents.
  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwDq9xCeavM
    In videos like this UI is never mentioned. Wasap and Instagramm are not having video due to lack of API's
  • You might be confusing UI with UX…
  • Where are those studies you guys keep quoting? I doubt there is any study outright saying "hamburger menus suck".
  • For your reference: https://redbooth.com/blog/hamburger-menu-iphone-app
  • It only takes milliseconds to find one. I binged it for you and found this one before taking a second breath. You're welcome.
    http://exisweb.net/mobile-menu-abtest
  • @hopdemic: Except that link is about the design of the hamburger button itself rather than its placement or functionality, so an entirely different issue than the criticized lack of one-handed usage. You kind of missed the point.
  • Maybe so, but the Exisweb research points out another important issue. The "fierce reduction" design of WP may confuse some users because that reduction makes many tapable things look like plain text. On iOS, the tapable items in a list have separator bars between items and often have a ">" at the right -- Windows Phone typically just shows the list. What the Exisweb results show above all else is that putting a boder around the icon or word increased touch frequency. I would argue that the boder defined it as a button and that the plain version didn't. It's wroth noting that the new Outlook client for W10 has separatorr lines between each item. (I guess that they couldn't bring themselves to add ">" to the right.)
  • I didn't miss anything. Where in the world do you get that I said anything about one-handed use. I simply said that the hamburger button sucks. Truth.
  • Most of the whole controversy about hamburgers is about their placement in the upper left corner and how it removes the pivot navigation. I cannot take your claim that hamburger buttons suck any seriously if you don't have anything to back it up. The article you linked me to says hamburger buttons become more obvious to the user when they've got a border around them but that doesn't still change how the button works or its basic design. It doesn't say they suck. You could have linked me to this article and it would have been much more relevant to why we are debating this button in the first place: https://lmjabreu.com/post/why-and-how-to-avoid-hamburger-menus/
  • Hamburge menus suck because you cover the screen navigating and afterwards you cover your content with a menu. How's that for a "study".?
  • @baandoptager: Because it makes so much sense to read what is on the screen when you are about to navigate to a different place.
  • Why are you using FB if hamburgers suck?
  • What makes you say that I am? And if I was, would I have to be doing so on mobile? And even if I were, would using the only option available make something acceptable? Or perhaps I use the Me tile when on mobile? The point is that using something when there is no other option is not equivalent to it not sucking.
  • And about Windows Central? =P
  • Completely agree with you.
  • you are 100% correct. there is no problem with UI of wp, Microsoft should bring features to wp platform, that's it.
    wp lacks features....
    not UI
  • If you GIF it, they will come. I want GIF support!
  • AMEN TO THAT
  • I get what you are trying to say, but the current UI is tad bit limiting when it comes to universal apps. But with hamburgers, universal apps will be able to scale more effectively on different scale sizes. With the current model it's difficult to scale. As a developer I'm excited to work with Windows 10 universal apps and Hamburgers.
  • the point of universal apps isnt that the app should have the same visual look on all forms of devices, but rather an app being adapted dynamiacally on all devices based on their factor, desktops having hamburgers may work out but the same cant be said for phones and tablets, they need to adapt the UI accordingly not just scale is blindly. maybe its hard but thats what you have to prove to lay your claim in the mobile market
  • While MS is not doing that, devs will still be able to do it.
  • This is an excellent comment, thank you. Coming from a UX perspective, I completely agree with you. The whole field of UX is built upon the principle that things can always be improved and optimized, and I am vehemently against settling for what is easy or common. There are better ways to implement lots of things in products all around us, and I think MS should be more confident that it can provide better solutions if they do the research. For many reasons, I can't believe that a hamburger in the top left corner of the screen is the best solution here. It's less efficient and less usable, even if it led to fewer errors because your contextual interiews revealed that users from other platforms are used to it.
  • @Ma Rio I generally agree and my heart tells me two things: 1) The uniqueness of WP Metro is going, like the hubs and swipe etc and hamburger menus will reign supreme. 2) If hamburgers are going to replace the unique and beautiful Metro then I believe WP can still be elegant, beautiful and unique, if the effort is made in this direction. Okay, we have the function side sorted, now add some unique, elegant and beautiful design, after all it's Microsoft, they can, right⁉
  • I agree, looks like MS and some fanboys are looking for different things to point the finger of blame at.  Unfortunately they aren't getting at the root of the problem.  
  • Who cares for porting..? When you know so much, seriously go and help them out. SMH
  • Keep in mind the target future of universal apps. You need the app to act and function the same across devices. I'm sure you probably could modify the XAML to have different navigation between devices but it could be confusing for user. They're going for uniformity.
  • Actually,  It's the last option for the windows phone to survive in this competitive market. It's obvious that Windows phone 8 contains many unique design principles (which is in most (not all) of the cases is very useful) but it's also true because of those uniqueness, it's developement is lagging (due to it's minor population none is taking interest in developing for entirely alien os with much less userbase). But if windows phone have started early in smartphone business(but it didn't) it might have some strong impact on app ui design and android and ios might be following the windows phone but current situation is just reverse. So, for microsoft to maintain it own os alive and benificial for them (in short decreasing the app gap) they have to somewhat switch to android or ios design principal so that other developer may take intersest for developing for windows phone it may result in losing those user who love windows phone unique design principal but it will gain many more user who are ingoring it just for app gap(atleast according to microsoft thought). It's all related to business and earning so let's face it.
  • No, dude.... All of the new apps have booku features compared to WP past... Look at the new office app...... Read the article...
    ........
    W10 is all about bringing the details, and there's more features, much more than before.
  • Not good enough answers overall. Seems like the UI team there still has inconsistencies.
  • Well windows central for android has hamburger menu Posted via the Windows Central App for Android on my Oneplus One
  • I still think they should give users a choice to have menu bar / hamburger on the top or bottom of the screen
  • Add another line, make it a cheeseburger. Problem solved, everyone's will be happy.
  • Fries and chicken nuggets ... then?
  • Three vertical lines would be fries, everyone would be loving it.
  • Yeah, I quite liked the unique UI but these reasons site practicalities you cant ignore. You cant be different to a point for the sake of being so and then wonder why people have a tough time transitioning. I personally agree with different for sake of different is not a good thing, but I don't think the UI was such a barrier. However, the richness of their applications requiring a better way to organize menus. If its important for success of universal apps and One OS, then I'm on board. Lets hope this research pays off, I want to see what else they can do.
  • Of course it was a good explanation. It was the same exact reason why iOS and Android use hamburger. So at the end of the day MS has lost their faith on their own design, copied and bent over to mediocrity.
  • Read the article on WMPU regarding comfortable usage on WP 8.1 that should brush some sense into the heads of the hamburger lovers.
  • No. That article was an opinion piece. An opinion I don't share. #longlivethehamburger
  • I welcomed them from the beginning.. I like the new Windows 10..
  • This is interesting https://lmjabreu.com/post/why-and-how-to-avoid-hamburger-menus/
  • Still dont like em as a otterbox user their a pain to tap in either top corner
  • The menu button sits nicely at the bottom right corner in WP7 & 8 with a 3 dot sign (...) and phone/phablet is easy to use! Then why this Hamburger madness just for apps.. ?? 
    If the design is same as Android / iOS THEN WHY I SHOULD WAIT FOR THE PORTED APPS HERE?? --> WHY NOT DIRECTLY JUMP OVER TO ANDROID AND iOS FOR REAL APP Experience instead of ported apps..?? Stupid designer hired by MSFT this time.. Horrible
  • Why did it take an ex-employee speaking from anonymity to get this message out. This is where MS completely fails at PR. They made a very public solicitation for feedback and knowing there was all of this angst about they direction they are taking, they sit back silent - appearing to completely ignore the feedback they have asked for. I have been generally neutral on the hamburger thing, but have been concerned about losing pivots and other WP distinctives. I'm still not totally sold, but he made some very good points I havent thought of and says they have data to back up the decisions they are making. That gives me a LOT more confidence that this isnt just copying Android thinking that will help WP somehow. I do hope they manage to keep more elements of the OS black. That is something I've always liked about WP I dont want to lose - the dark theme system wide. Now, Cortana is all white and a lot of other pages are white screens.
  • If they explain this from beginning of UI changes we won't hate them so much.
  • I'm Ok for hamburgers
  • Yes, agree with you. I don't have problem with hamburger menu. I just want swipe feature in some apps like dial pad & alarm hub
  • Not really. The hamburger itself was never the real issue. The problem is that you can't reach the button, and the only reason is so amnesiacs can keep checking the top of the screen to remind themselves what the name of their document is. That is a stupid reason.
  • But compare it with the Fedora Reader app for example... How do you like the concept? I think it is pretty awesome as it is easy to use and discoverability doesn't suffer...
  • No.
  • Still this does not convince me. Office hub doesn't have hamburger. Still we can see all places where my documents are stored and access the office applications. I think hamburger comes into picture only when you want to sandwich too many items inside a single app. Compare the current one drive and email apps. To add multiple email accounts you need a separate settings/hub app. This manages each accounts. Once created, we can use individual account as separate app, of course we can combine them all. But the email account management is not part of email app. But in OneDrive, all account management is done by a single app. So it needs a master set of options common to all accounts and that needed a hamburger. If onedrive account management is pulled out of the OneDrive app, then it becomes bit easy to remove the hamburger. I favour having office/email like hub for managing accounts and list as separate app in all apps list for each account.
  • Actually the biggest problem I thought of is for people with only onscreen buttons. Having that combined with the ellipsis might make the UI difficult
  • Wish they had stated this a bit earlier......
  • It wouldn't have mattered. Some people will still cry about it.
  • It's not crying, it's called disagreement, how do you get along in society if you can't disagree and not feel insulted to the point of caustic expression.
  • Yup, if people just blindly nodded along like sheep the world would be a vastly different place than it currently is.
  • That's what Hitler thought but those damned allies insisted in contradicting him... Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Holy cow, you already busted out Godwin's Law in a discussion about app design. Bravo. You have hit bottom.
  • That was a quick Godwins! :'D
  • Ha, good one! "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches"
  • Umm...like utopian society? /j
  • Some would, of course, but he also makes very good points I hadnt thought of - like being able to fit more controls in the hamburger menu and the difficulty of 5 swipes to get to something. It also helps that he explains exactly how the data they have on usage is driving it. I still have concerns, but I'm happy enough to give it the benefit of the doubt and trust that people with a lot more experience and data than I have are driving this ship.
  • I find it easier to reach HB control than back hardware button on my L928, I have medium sized paws and it seems like I'm juggling the phone when attempting one-handed navigation.
  • Well, it's not like he's speaking for Microsoft. This is what happens when we get to look at the product before it's ready.
  • Why isnt someone speaking for MS? When the whole mess blew up, they should have had someone getting out in front of it explaining the metrics they are using to guide the decisions they are making. They made this a public process, asking for feedback and all of that, but there needs to be more two-way dialog in this - especially when they seem to be ignoring some very vocal feedback out there.
  • They will at //build/, we just have to wait few more weeks.
  • Really fascinating discussion. Personally, I'm fine with hamburger menus and think this is being blown out of proportion. When you talk to real app designers and large companies, they like this approach as it lets them easier port their apps over to Windows. Food for thought.
  • Hamburger... Food for thought... Pun intended? ;)
  • I liked em before too.
  • No issue with hamburgers at all. Using one hand on a 5-inch or higher screen is not very practical.
  • Depends on the size of your hand. I'm 6'1" (185cm) tall with big hands. I use my 1520 one-handed fairly frequently.
  • Same Here
  • Well use two hands. And don't bother buying something your hands can't caress, and let those who actually use those large screen devices be happy with using them.
  • Well even for smaller screens top left corner is arguably the worst possible location. :)
  • Not practical indeed especially if your touting an otterbox
  • I am not necessarily negative about the hamburger menu, however I still can't resolve many of the new design elements with the start screen and the use of the tile paradigm. To me it seems jarring.
    Just saying - not trying to start a fight.
  • What do you mean by that? I'm curious :P
  • UI design can get quite wordy... without overly long descriptions of what I mean I guess my first impression is that the newer desgin elements (hamburger begin one of them) are part of a different design paradigm and by incorporating them into a central part of what used to be metro (meaning the tiles and some of the navigation eminating from that - like the pivot from the start screen to the all programs list) seems somewhat bolt-on... or what other called Frankenstein design similar to Windows RT and the desktop bolt-on debachle.
  • Honestly, the only problem I have with win 10TP is the circles in the people hub, Skype, and any other place their putting them as hamburger menus do stay inline as a square group of stacked lines which follow the square/rectangle paradigm of modern design of you really think about it; however the circles do not, they're a stark contrast from the modern design. Just my opinion
  • Agreed - this is another design elemnt that seems somewhat out of place when joining the two paridigms.
  • One sentence: Agreed and change Skype to squares, not the other way around. And stick those pill shaped toggles up the dark side of the moon!
  • Lmfao!! Definitely agree on the pill shaped toggles.
  • I totally agreed. Bad design is those annoying circles.
  • its an attempt from microsoft hoping developers will use tools like xamarin and port apps to windows phone ... well microsoft that's not gonn happen soon until you really ramp up your wp
  • @ASPDEV
    This change is not about porting apps to WP.
    If you are fellow developer and watched the video will know that makes perfect sense.
    To attract more devs MS must improve WP API drastically. VisualStudio is already the best IDE.
    .NET framework is ahead of JAVA. Objective C is a joke. In summary, I am optimistic.
  • hell with the video ... real reason is about porting ... msft is hoping people will bring their apps to windows phone ...  and frankly speaking Java is way ahead API is viewed by community years and year ... Java is 2nd most popular language after Javascript ... it took ages for msft to make .net open source ...  what thing c# can do and java cant ? Java runs on almost everything .... Objective c is joke for people who have no idea what programming is ... its a high performance language.
  • I don't disagree with you about the real reason being porting. However your comment about open source tells me something about your overall view of programming in general -- which by the way I guess is shared by many. I;ve never been able to back the open source camp. It seems to me that those that support open source are either purists - e.g. they believe in a totally open source model and don't see any need for private code - or they believe in some open sourcing of code. The former is too rigid of an ideal and doesn't really have a sound business model. The latter is confusing because I'm not sure where the proper point is to draw the line between private code base and open source. I'm not sure where in the stack you draw that line. Regardless, interesting observations.
  • True. Fortunately the hamburger menu is not an API right?
  • its an API... which developers will be able to invoke and have sliding feature
  • For Windows, it is standard UI component called split view.
  • User design has to center around practical use. Though I really like Windows Phone design a large amount of people I referred to Windows Phone did not. I'm not near pompous enough to think because I deem something as better it is for another person. If someone reads that Reddit and still does not understand the benefit aligning with the industry there is no hope of having a productive conversation with them.
  • I don't disagree, but I think MS has work to do to align their use of the old metro design elements like tiles and the new design paradigm. I don't believe they're ditching tiles and hamburger menus seem like a done decision, so my concern the unification of the design. I realm hope they don't just bolt it together, kinda like they did out of necessity with RT and the desktop. Please, no more Frankenstein designs.
  • It's not that people don't understand it. It's that people don't agree with it. You, me, Microsoft... we all make mistakes. You probably think the direction MS is taking their UI isn't one, but a lot of people think it is. IMHO this video doesn't tell us anything we hadn't already figured out ourselves long ago. I've been saying the exact same thing this guy is saying all over these forums, namely that WP lacks a good concept for navigation. MS is getting around to fixing that, which is great. Their whole design philosophy however, at least according to this video, is to just do the same thing Android and iOS are doing. Why? Two reasons: portability and convergence. The second reason (convergence) is BS. There are always going to be differences between how apps are displayed on large tablets and small smartphones. The question is how to best deal with those differences so you get the best experience on both devices. The question is NOT how to make both look as similar as possible, experience be damned. The first reason (portability) is possibly valid, but only if they have tech up their sleeves that allows for single-source cross-platform development, or automatic porting from iOS/Android. If they do, I'd say they have a point, if they don't, it won't make a difference. Unfortunately, by directly tieing WP's UI to iOS'/Android's design principles, MS is sacrificing their own ability to innovate. If portability is the main concern, then they can't ever improve their own design beyond that of their competitors. Whether that is a good tradeoff remains to be seen. I think it's not. I want more innovation from MS, not less.
  • Also important to note that they may be putting least used options in the hamburger menu, and frequently used options outside of that
  • Why not shift the hamburger menu to be a part of the bottom action bar. Easier to reach with the hand. Still a sliding menu system. The action bar is there in almost all apps, so why not use that? Or else use a vertical ellipses at the bottom?
  • Re: Shashank Holla,
    I agree.
  • Hamburger is the future.
  • Modern design failed, obviuosly.
  • No, but there is a point when you cut your losses and move on. History is littered with products with better designs that never caught mass appeal. With the way the smartphone market is, familiarity is the only way to get people to move to Windows Phone. I think making it as close to Windows desktop as possible will help with that. Also, the first time I ever saw the Hamburger menu was in webOS. It was a far superiorly designed OS than iOS and Android yet never caught on either. So the hamburger doesn't make or break an OS.
  • Agreed. The reason MS taking this route is because metro design just wasn't successful. They put it lot of hrs and money for last 4yrs. Time foe a change and I am all for Wp success even if it means looking like the others but overall I think there still will be many design differences
  • Gotta agree with you. When you have a big screen there are obviously going to be some shortcomings to one-handed use. Already today, how do you reach the tiles on the top left or the Action Center on the top and how come I don't hear any complaints about that? Yes, it's nice when you can swipe all around the place for navigation but still I consider the hamburger button issue to be blown out of proportion. Not to mention many people try to argue that the bottom bar is going to be replaced by the hamburger while that is obviously not the case, as the bottom bar still contains common and context-related actions while it's the navigation that moves to the hamburger. Hamburger buttons alone are not going to save Windows Phone but they are definitely not going to cause masses of users moving away from Windows Phone either. Personally, I think there is a huge benefit in the universal apps with a common UI, in fact, I think they have a much greater potential in bringing Windows Phone forward than sticking to the classic Windows Phone ways of navigation.
  • Exactly if one can swipe action centre from the topthen he/she can use those hamburgers
  • u're wrong. When u open action center, u can drag anywhere from the topbar (left or center or right). Is so easy for u to do that with ur right thumb dragging from top-right or ur left thumb dragging from top-left. As for THIS design of hamberger menu, ur thumbs have to touch the opposite side of the topbar, and to choose anythong from the slide-out menus, ur thumbs have to work quite hard
  • Yes you are right but wp version of hamburger should behave like the one in android, just swipe from the left
  • This! I cant say how many meetings I've been shocked in when clients bring up the discussion of windows 10 for phone because of the unification of style with other systems and universal anilities, these are people that previously would either laugh or ask what wp was if you brought it up. I also dont mind hamburgers at all but def prefer(although this isnt always possible, i.e. outlook app for 10, where it would interfere with the quick actions per message)  the implementation where you can just touch\swipe anywhere along the edge that the hamburger is on as well as touch the icon itself. cant wait for build!
  • It's mainly a fight between one- vs two-handed use of a mobile device. A tablet is supposed to be used with two hands so any placement of UI elements are OK and a thoughtful placement would just bring speed and productivity benefits. A smartphone (or a phablet) may be used by two hands but the metro modern design managed to make it possible to do almost everything with just one hand. Pivot navigation and the 3-dot and all action buttons at the bottom were the pillars on which this UX was built upon (and a UI explored by MS since 2005 if I remember correctly). I like hamburger menus and knowing that everybody will understand how to work with a new app or platform is nice but WP was leading the way in UI design and a lot of elements and ideas were transferred to Windows 8 environment and apps. But when I saw the new Mail and Calendar apps for W10 for phones... What do they have to do with anything else designed from Microsoft for this platform? We were proud to show developers and key decision makers how a smartphone should really work and now we are going back. I thinbk that Microsoft should now delete the "Season of the witch" promo video from their archives ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg1gbVGk19k (8 years Mobile Devices MVP and one of the old MVPs that were pushing towards a radically different UX to leap beyond what iPhone brought in 2007)
  • We will see if this is actually borne out in increased app porting to Windows or if its just more smoke being blown by Microsoft and their supporters.
  • I don't mind them, but their placement is just off. If they put it at the bottom left I think everybody will be happy. different screens call for different ui's.
  • Devs can do that, they can also place it on the right side if they so choose (probably why swiping doesn't work).
  • Nothing is wrong with this hamburger thing. Those who say's that it is hard to reach on phablet device are really lame. Nobody ever complained about back button on I6, they are enjoying it two handed. The real problem bringing it to WP is that how app devloper uses it, as mentioned for Office apps it totally make sense when you have so many options to fit in small size, I also like how fb uses hamburger menu for chat in android and it make's sense, but imagine when it is used for navigation, I personally don't like it and it will bring inconsistency to WP platform if it used for it, people will find hard to figure that out, Pivot control is better for navigation.
  • Interesting points as is this blog http:/blog.manbolo.com/2014/06/30/apple-on-hamburger-menus Apple on hamburger menus....
  • Nah I still think hamburger = MS bending over to pressure
  • Have to agree with you here. About 2 months ago, I was one of the biggest opposers of the XXL-Bacon-Hamburger-with-Cheese-Button, you can think of. BUT, then I handed over my Phone to one of my friends and this guy, while tech savvy, had real trouble to navigate through my phone. Afterwards he told me that his problems with WP lie in App intern navigation. PIVOTS with huge fontsizes, are too confusing for him, as some sections are hidden and maybe will even never be discovered and PANORAMAS/HUBS as they are too cumbersome to navigate through. That was the time I realised what WPs/Metros biggest hurdle is, familiarty. As much as I have to admit that Metro is beautiful, it is certainly not relevant and useful in todays Mobile world. Typography driven UIs look Awesome and this is a good way to get peoples attention, but its way harder for devs to actually design nice looking Apps. Don't believe me? Just take a look at the WP Store, its full of great and usefull Apps, but most of them are ugly and lack good quality design. I guess people should stop moaning about this topic and start realising that Hamburger Menus are and unfortunately have to be the way forward, especially with Universal Apps and the design once run everywere approach by Microsoft and WinRT. Edit: I should also emphasize, that it was not the swiping of pivots that was the problem for him, but rather those huge Section-headers that hide everything next to them.
  • Give an iPhone or Android phone to a guy who used WP for his whole life, he will have the same confusion. Some People are not able to figure out things and some are good at it. I have an iPhone user friend who looked at start screen of my Lumia and told its too complicated. I laughed at him because he is the one who got an overpriced midrange phone, not me. We cant do anything about people like these. According to them every OS UI should look same as their favourite OS UI. People always complain about WP without learning the uniqueness or design language of the OS. It's same as some WP user saying ios and android must have live tiles! LOL!
  • well daniel being okay with may come with a few amount of spent time, but why discontinue something that has far better appeal in usability and functionality? universal apps dooesnt need mean solely the same UI scaling rather it should mean the same app adapting according to the device and form factor, thats ONE WINDOWS for me.
  • If you really think that hamburger will save the platform, then good luck with that. It was never about the design, which I find flawless. It kinda fails due to Microsoft image and the allegedly low amount of apps. Porting apps has nothing to do with that. Let me give you a few examples: 1. You get a ton of mails. What I do on WP8? Open up the app, swipe to side and I see the filtered unread mails which I want to focus on. What do I get on W10? I can't even filter it. If I could, I would need dig through some tiny font hamburger menu. Really helpful. 2. Fonts in the Settings or throughout the OS. I happened to meet a group of people that have serious issues with sight/eyes. They love WP8, as they can see everything clearly and they are not getting buried in the menu. Thanks for killing all that greatness.I chose WP because of the design. If I get the design of the Android, why should I stick with WP? I already have all the Microsoft apps. And faster than on WP itself.
  • Daniel, I agree that this hamburger menu is slightly blown out of proportion but the implications are too important to Windows Phone as a platform. Microsoft's current strategic plan in my opinion is to reach out to as many users on ANY platform as much as possible to use their services, e.g. OneDrive, Office 360 etc. In order to do that, the UX must be similar across ALL platform be it iOS, Android etc. Feature parity is similarly important for the same reasons. Using the same design naturally allow them to conveniently and easily maintain a "single" (not exactly the same but similar) code base and design language. However, Microsoft has created a design language in Windows Phone that attracted many an adopter like me to switch to Windows Phone (for me from iOS) such as Live Tiles (bored of rows and columns of icons) specifically. We have done so despite Windows Phone being so lagging behind in terms of apps (especially games, novelty or up and coming apps), features (no notification centre or quick settings until 8.1) and newer hardware such as SOCs and screen resolution etc. If Windows Phone adopted the same UX and elements as iOS and Android, it is first and foremost a betrayal of our support for the design langauge and Windows Phone. At the same time, it will lose one of the most important differentiating factors; then why buy a Windows Phone? Does it have more/better apps? No. Does it have better hardware? No. Does it still lag in terms software features? Probably yes. My question to you and Microsoft is, why buy a Window Phone then? Buy an iPhone or a higher end Android phone (so it does not lag) then. Cause Windows Phone doesn't have more benefit than it has detriments. So I guess the bottom line is this. Microsoft can make more $$ from their services from the other platforms but end of the day, the unique qualities of Windows Phone will be sacrificed. That is unless they are not too LAZY and cheap to maintain a separate set of their apps designed just for Windows Phone. The ironic thing is... many developers say they do not want to maintain or create apps for Windows Phone due to its low adoption rate. Guess what?! Even Microsoft themselves would not do so for their own Windows Phone apps, they would rather design a similar app and pander them to the platforms with the largest user base. Bottom line; Microsoft's bigger strategy at play is bigger than Windows Phone and/or their own design philosophy. Pandering to the masses is priority!
  • I believe you hit the nail on the head❗
  • It doesn't betray anyone. The fact is the people bitching about this are in a seriously small minority. Microsoft needs to appeal to the majority or windows phone is going nowhere. It's as simple as that.
  • Daniel, I agree that this hamburger menu is slightly blown out of proportion but the implications are too important to Windows Phone as a platform. Microsoft's current strategic plan in my opinion is to reach out to as many users on ANY platform as much as possible to use their services, e.g. OneDrive, Office 360 etc. In order to do that, the UX must be similar across ALL platform be it iOS, Android etc. Feature parity is similarly important for the same reasons. Using the same design naturally allow them to conveniently and easily maintain a "single" (not exactly the same but similar) code base and design language. However, Microsoft has created a design language in Windows Phone that attracted many an adopter like me to switch to Windows Phone (for me from iOS) such as Live Tiles (bored of rows and columns of icons) specifically. We have done so despite Windows Phone being so lagging behind in terms of apps (especially games, novelty or up and coming apps), features (no notification centre or quick settings until 8.1) and newer hardware such as SOCs and screen resolution etc. If Windows Phone adopted the same UX and elements as iOS and Android, it is first and foremost a betrayal of our support for the design langauge and Windows Phone. At the same time, it will lose one of the most important differentiating factors; then why buy a Windows Phone? Does it have more/better apps? No. Does it have better hardware? No. Does it still lag in terms software features? Probably yes. My question to you and Microsoft is, why buy a Window Phone then? Buy an iPhone or a higher end Android phone (so it does not lag) then. Cause Windows Phone doesn't have more benefit than it has detriments. So I guess the bottom line is this. Microsoft can make more $$ from their services from the other platforms but end of the day, the unique qualities of Windows Phone will be sacrificed. That is unless they are not too LAZY and cheap to maintain a separate set of their apps designed just for Windows Phone. The ironic thing is... many developers say they do not want to maintain or create apps for Windows Phone due to its low adoption rate. Guess what?! Even Microsoft themselves would not do so for their own Windows Phone apps, they would rather design a similar app and pander them to the platforms with the largest user base. Bottom line; Microsoft's strategy at play is bigger than Windows Phone and/or their own design philosophy. Pandering to the masses is priority!
  • I prefer my apps on phones to work the same as on Windows 10 PC and tablets. Hamburger is the way to go.
  • Sorry Dan, but I am vegetarian :)
  • Agreed. From what I've read, the approach with the Office apps sounds good. Hamburgers at top left for some things, app bar/ribbon at the bottom for others generally more frequently used. I don't want to use a hamburger menu to make some text bold, but it's fine for "save as". For rarely used things like settings in an email app or switching to another account, hamburger works fine. Swipe in from the left or touch the hamburger, and settings are right there. The alternative of touching the ellipsis, and then scrolling the short list to find settings doesn't seem better, just different.
  • That is a very good point. I mean if hamburgers would let more devs come to the ecosystem, well, long live hamburgers
  • K, valid argument.
  • Tl;dr
  • As long as you're fine with hamburgers then it's okay for you not to read.
  • Too many items to put in (...) menu, not clear or concise and it can be hard to discover items in (...) for new users. Less space if everything is put in a tab. Its also easier to discover stuff in one place, such as the hamburger method. Finally, less users are one handed than previously thought, with the advent of larger phones.
  • I think this will be great