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From the Editor's Desk: Is the Windows Phone community imploding?

Some people may not know, but I have been writing on Windows Phone here since 2007 back when it was just called Windows Mobile (and the site was just WMExperts). Funny how things come around again, and I'm not just talking about names.

There is little doubt that over the last few months, fans of Microsoft's mobile OS have had some trials to face and indeed, I expect we're at the lowest point right now. The tone today from many is dire. No one is happy with the Cityman and Talkman leaks, Windows 10 Mobile still feels rough and incomplete, and Microsoft looks to be miles from the competition. Throw in things like certain Lumia apps being retired and the relative success yesterday of Apple's big press event and it is hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. In fact, at times, there is barely a glimmer of light.

Yes, Microsoft has brought a lot of this on themselves.

Having said all of that, I do find it a bit disheartening to see so many not only turn on Microsoft but each other and this community. I do get it too, and I am certainly not here to say "It'll all be okay, just you wait!" because even I am tired of repeating that. However, there a few things to consider that I would like to discuss.

Incomplete picture

Although many of us are using Windows 10 Mobile as part of the Insider program, in some ways, this is creating more perception problems rather than fixing them.

In the past, when Microsoft was releasing a new OS we had to rely on well-placed sources to verify easily-faked screenshots and we only saw the OS through static images. Today, we are doing something unprecedented: seeing how an OS is made. As it turns out, it is not very pretty if you are just a consumer and not an engineer or software developer. Since we do not know what the final product is supposed to be like, we only see what is in front of us and being developed. This scenario is normal for those who make the OS, but strange to those used to a complete and finished system.

On the one hand, I think the Insider program is great. It lets us see how the OS is being developed, we can influence some aspects of it, and Microsoft can (hopefully) build a better OS in the long run.

Then again, since we do not know what Microsoft's criteria is for success, and you cannot help but wonder if they will ever have a stable platform. Windows 10 Mobile being the third OS reboot in so many years certainly does not help the situation.

How we got here

Windows Mobile 6.x based off of Windows CE was great except for the fact that it was built on a legacy core. This core crippled Microsoft who could not do much with it going forward. Faced with the iPhone and Android, Microsoft had to hit the reset button. Ideally, Microsoft would have gone to the Windows NT core, but development would have taken much longer than bootstrapping a new OS onto CE. So Windows Phone 7 was pushed out but it still faced the same limitations of Mobile 6.5.

Windows Phone 8 happened because Microsoft needed to get the NT kernel into the OS. However, doing so is like replacing the foundation of a building. It is rather hard to change out the base when the structure is already in place. But the promise of NT is too alluring. With it, Microsoft could add more APIs, extend feature sets and set the groundwork for their 'three screens and a cloud' strategy of a unified OS.

Windows 10 Mobile is yet another reboot because now that the foundation is the same as Windows desktop, the outside structure needs to match too. You cannot have a unified OS if the UI is completely different from the desktop one, so here we are again seeing another OS being rebuilt.

I mentioned all of this more depth in an older article aptly called 'This is why Microsoft keeps 'starting over' with Windows Phone'. I encourage you read it for more background on this complicated topic.

Keep in mind, I am not justifying Microsoft's history here so much as just explaining why they did what they did.

The real criticism for the mess we are in goes back to Steve Ballmer, who did not prioritize mobile back in 2006 when they should have. Combined with weird tangents like Courier, Kin, Zune and Windows RT and Microsoft is, in my opinion, finally on the right track with Windows 10. The problem now is they are clearly behind Apple and Google in terms of OS and smartphone maturity. It is what it is.

When Windows 10 Mobile does finally hit the market, it will be once again seen as New instead of a continuation. Part of this is very accurate, but obviously there is a lot more going on. How to rectify perception though with reality is not an easy solution.

Is it that bad?

So here we are going into late 2015. There has been no flagship Windows Phones in nearly 18 months, the OS is being rebooted, and Samsung and Apple are hitting their stride. So far, the leaks for Cityman and Talkman have failed to inspire people too.

For the record, I am not sure Cityman and Talkman are the flagship phones we deserve. I hear from sources who have seen and used them that they are phones you need to see and hold to appreciate really. I am willing to believe that but let's be honest, that is a tough way to sell a phone on TV. Conversely, you have the Galaxy S6 Edge. That phone looks phenomenal in ads, but in real life it is less than fantastic (awkward to hold and the 'edge' is gimmicky at best). But it looks awesome. Cityman and Talkman? They look a ho-hum solid.

The problem for Microsoft is everything is down the road. The promise of Universal apps? Coming soon. The promise of ported apps through Bridges from Android, iOS, Win32 and web apps? On the way. New exciting Windows Phone hardware? Just around the corner! A stable and mature OS that can compete with Android and iOS and even surpass them? It's almost here!

However, as mentioned above I still see Windows 10 as being just damn awesome – even if on paper. The desktop OS is doing very well so far with mass adoption and – let's face it – very little blowback in acceptance. Xbox One is still gaining and adding Windows 10 to it should be exciting. The Surface Pro is doing so well Apple is now copying it. HoloLens is still some crazy technology that is hard to believe exists. Now add Continuum and yeah, there is still some spark left in Windows Mobile.

So things are bad. We are in the pits right now at the lowest point, but what else is there to do? If you want Android or iOS, go ahead. If Windows Phone becomes great, just come back. Switching phones has never been easier especially since apps and services are abundant and even more convenient with 'the cloud'.

You don't criticize enough

Another thing we hear a lot here at Windows Central is we as staff are not critical enough. Admittedly, we are not sour on Microsoft for a few reasons, including:

  • My personality – I'm more of a 'the glass is half full' then empty kind of person
  • Critical Mass – If you want people slamming Microsoft you do not have to venture too far on the internet to find it, even amongst friendly sites and those sympathetic.
  • We're brand champions – I think it would be odd as the top Windows site in the world (raw traffic, forums, and our quality) not to believe in the products we cover

The issue here is when I don't agree with criticisms or defend a company it must because we are getting paid by them. I have gone on record in the past and will so again: we do not take money from companies. If we did, you would see 'sponsored post' everywhere to let you know that someone besides us was footing the bill. In those rare cases, we still maintain editorial control over the content. Case in point: Hidden Gems as we chose and approved of all of those apps. Even our ads are handled by an outside company called Purch. We don't know who is advertising with us and do not handpick our sponsors.

When it comes to laptops from Lenovo, HP, or Dell, we have never even been given a review unit, let alone been paid to write anything. Yeah, I'm not proud that Dell does not send us laptops, or Lenovo cannot be bothered to let us borrow a tablet. But it is what it is. (By the way, feel free to hound them on social media to get their attention if you want us to review hardware; otherwise, we pay for it out of pocket, which gets pricey fast).

Be happy

Although we all love our jobs here at Windows Central and are privileged to do what we do, it is a hard job at times. We try to give you the best reviews, the best in-depth coverage, and the most reliable insider information we can. Because of that, it's rather tough to see all of you bickering and fighting all the time in comments. It gets even worse when you turn on us because we just don't agree with your point of view, and we get accused of being sellouts.

Let's all step back, take a deep breath, and wait to see what happens over the next few months. We already see momentum with universal Windows apps for Windows 10, some movement with OEMs for new phones, and I even bet Cityman and Talkman are not nearly as terrible as you may think. At the very least, let us wait for Microsoft to tell their story and then judge. Fair?

Finally, remember, these are just phones, folks. There is a lot more to Microsoft and the Windows world, and there has never been a more exciting time for mobile technology than today. Cool gizmos constantly surround us, and it can only get better. Right?

So cheer up. You're part of something bigger and more exciting.

Daniel Rubino
Daniel Rubino

Daniel Rubino is the Executive Editor of Windows Central, head reviewer, podcast co-host, and analyst. He has been covering Microsoft here since 2007, back when this site was called WMExperts (and later Windows Phone Central). His interests include Windows, Microsoft Surface, laptops, next-gen computing, and arguing with people on the internet.

957 Comments
  • I for one do feel somewhat abandoned & neglected by the level of importance meeted out against the windows phone community. The pain is more intensified when I see Microsoft giving first preference to other platforms ( Yes I get it, it's a business decision !). How can we evangilize on Microsft's behalf when we aren't afforded parity of our own apps & also seeing our prised app (CORTANA) transcending to other platforms. @ Windows Central & Daniel by extension, continue doing your jobs as this site is very informative. I'd be most dissapointed if you provided us with anything less. Please to remember you can't please all the people, all the time.            
  • My 1020 froze yesterday. Would not power off, not buttons worked, nothing. I was thinking now what to get? Hell all my Microsoft services are available on any phone. Started to look at Galaxies and iPhones. The 1020 finally ran out of battery which rebooted it and all is fine now but.....
  • I wonder if a soft reset would have worked (if you didn't already try). Holding volume up + volume down + power for around 10-15 seconds.
  • Yes, it works. Time ago it happend the same thing to my Lumia 920 and I tried a soft reset and worked as charm, so keep it in mind @NIST the next time it happen to you. Thanks @SolunaKitty , however I just used Volume Down + Power.
  • No buttons worked at all on the phone.
  • 1.Press and hold the Volume down Volume down button and Power Power button buttons at the same time until you feel a vibration (about 10–15 seconds). 2.When you feel the vibration, immediately press and hold the Volume down button until you see a large exclamation mark. 3.Once the exclamation mark appears, press the following four buttons in this order: Volume up Volume up button, Volume down , Power , Volume down . Your phone should now reset and restart itself. (It might take a while for the reset to finish.)
  • Also, if your phone acting weird do a back up then do the above and do clean OS installation. When the installation completed do a hard reset again but this time from the phone setting and install the back up.
    You'd hate me and thank me later
  • Yeah had that on my L920 and L1520 too. Most of the time the reset works others not - shit OS. I have been on WP since the first phones launch and frankly tired of beeing screwed over and over and over and over again!!! Are the people at MS really that stupid or are they just have a bet on who can make the most idiotic decisions!  My L1520 is falling a part and as much as I think City- Talkman are ugly shit looking phones.... being the stupid sheep I am, I am going to get one....   Sorry for the rant Daniel. Keep up the good work you guys do!
  • I taught high school for 11 years.  One thing I learned is that students always call anything they don't understand stupid.  Why?  Because they don't take the time to ask questions and get the facts.  I feel this is the same thing some people on this site are doing--calling Microsoft's decisions stupid when they don't have a clue why the decisions are made.  I'm assuming none of us attended any of the high level meetings at Microsoft when Windows Phone/Mobile was discussed.  And really, do you think those people sat around in the meetings and said, "Hey, let's see what we can do to create the worst experience possible for our users?"  Microsoft can't afford to fail in mobile, so I feel pretty confident they will get it right in the end.  I'm just enjoying the ride.  I think Microsoft has done what they've done to try to succeed in mobile.  Yes, they've had to reboot a few times.  But it was necessary in order try to become relevant.  And I think they finally got it right.  I don't know if Windows 10 Mobile will catch on.  But I think it should.  It's an amazing concept--the same OS on every device, universal apps, etc.  I, for one, (pats self on back) have not been critical of Microsoft.  I have thoroughly enjoyed using Windows Phone.  It's been a nice change from iOS and Android.  And I've appreciated the way Microsoft has changed--where they now listen to user input.  And if they haven't instituted every change that has been recommended, there's probably a good reason--either technical or time involved.  Sure, there are other options.  But let's put it into perspective.  Do you really want to become an Apple user?  I've seen what that does to people.  It somehow makes them feel superior...and act that way towards anyone else that doesn't have an iPhone/MacBook/iPad.  For example, the Surface is an amazing product.  Even the Microsoft-hating tech press has been forced to recognize it.   But I've seen Apple fans turn their noses up at it because it didn't have an Apple logo on it.  Now they have a Surface look-a-like they will claim is much better than a Surface.  Or worse yet they will claim Microsoft somehow copied the iPad Pro when they made the Surface.  And Android? If you haven't seen lag on your phone, just give it some time.  If you install a number of apps it's inevitable.  And do you really want Google monetizing your data?  I, for one, got sick of Google stretching its tentacles into every aspect of my life.  I'll never go back there, I don't care how many apps are available on Android.  At least with Microsoft I can choose to keep my data private. I'm using my Lumia 1520 and enjoying it every day.  If Microsoft somehow improves it with firmware or software, well, that's a bonus.  They don't owe me anything.  They aren't required to take my advice on features, and they certainly don't have to make a phone that meets my standards for a flagship device.  And if I decide somebody else is making a device that will give me a better experience I'm free to leave at any time.  So please, stop whining about Microsoft and calling them stupid.  Do some research.  Ask questions.  Make suggestions.  Be patient.  Otherwise, just buy an iPhone and stop making yourself miserable.  LIfe's too short for that.  
  • Finally someone else with my same frame of mind! I've been enjoying every new revision of Windows Phone that has come out, me still being on my first and only windows phone to date - Lumia 920. I've had it for 3 years and it has been a champion. I've seen looots of other phones from android and apple that never lasted this long - android because of software, and iphones because if they are dropped once the screen is just toast. I've dropped my 920 lots (never extremely far though, thankfully) and it has held up well. I'm personally finding it really interesting running preview software on my phone, and i've sent in my fair share of tips and opinions to Microsoft, and who knows if they are listening to it at all. But who cares? We are getting a glimpse of how an OS is made, and that is really cool. I always do try to show my android and iphone friends why Windows Phone is worth a look, especially my wife, cause it would be nice to both be on the same OS, but if people aren't swayed, no big deal. People can choose what they like, no one is forcing anyone to stay on board, but I for one LOVE the idea of what Microsoft is planning for in the near future. I'm enjoying the ride, and I don't think theres a need to get bent out of shape. Maybe that's my opinion because I'm not one that needs a new flagship every year. I buy my phone based on it lasting for a long time, that's why i bought the best phone Microsoft offered at the time of my 920 purchase.
  • I think this article has the most comments I've seen of all WC articles.
  • WM = Poo  
  • I was listening to a speech some day and the speaker said "A smart phone is only as smart as the user".That said, I am never explaining to anyone else why I'll keep on choosing Windows Phone.
  •  This would also perfectly explain the iphone's popularity. Lol.
  • I think it's volume - (down) and power at the same time for soft reset.
  • The exact same thing happens to Android and iOS users.
  • Missing his point!
  • That's what I'm thinking, lol!
  • What exactly is the point?  That an older phone should never have problems?  I've got news for you, the older galaxy phones i've used in the past have been just as buggy.  The grass is not always greener.
  • His point was that when put into a position thinking he might need to get a new phone, there was nothing keeping him in the Windows ecosystem.  Not that the same thing doesn't happen to other phones - that was irrelevant. 
  • shoot my galaxy tab just got lollipop a bit ago, while they have discontued my tab s pro which was up to date on everything and the latest model at the time i still have issues with my android software. some have gotten worse since i updated the OS.  my screen sharing option seems to always have a unstable conntection and needs to be connected everytime i start a new task, my lock screen will half the time pop up with a static screen before correcting itself. my battery life still sucks, it lags like crazy, it full of bloatware that cannot be turned off even if i dont use it which can cause the lag and battery issue. its unresponsive at times and now for some unknow reason it will kick me out of applications for no reason.  my husbands iphone 6 which hes switched out twice was because it had battery issues and major connectivity problems, which is a problem because he uses it for work. this last one seems to be much better though. apparently his issues are a common problem among the iphone 6 line which they have mainly ironed out now that theyve gotten out these later batches.  IOS is the same as Android the way they fix them is a minor patch depending on the issue and to fix it in the next OS build and that brings other weird problems as well. IOS will update all their devices though, android will fragment it and remove older devices that dont have compatible hardware which is usually about 2 years or older, or devices that have been discontinued.  its a never ending cycle on all platforms, IOS and Android just do their own internal testing and get a focus group to mash out major issues if they find any. the only difference MS does these beta testings to get customer feedback which is great and horrible at the same time. theres some people you cant please no matter the changes you make and that just tells me people are spoiled especially since their fine with spending tons of money every year for the latest gadets. im quite happy with my windows phone though and have no issues other than my 930 is a battery sucker at times though its been alot better since i installed update 2.
  • But when will we get thumbs up for comments? Or use emojis? These are the real problems bringing us all down. :-(
  • Lol
  • You know , the android and IOS communities are even worse, point bring noted about us too, but we are the only community on earth that are helping a company to build something to our taste. I really proud of that fact. And I still vote ours as the best community, sure Microsoft can be unnerving sometimes, and sometimes we lose a nerve, but I think its all for the greater part. So, peace y'all... WINDOWS :D
  • @buddy007 Agreed! I wouldn't trade it for anything... 
  • Uninspired by Talkman and Cityman, I have upgraded from my ageing L920 to an inexpensive, second hand L930.
    The difference is amazing. This phone is like lighting in comparison! Highly recommend this move if you are in the same situation.
    This should see me out until Windows 10 mobile is ready for me to upgrade the software, and later the hardware when a REAL flagship is available!
    Surface Phone anyone?
  • Why is everyone down on the 950 and 950XL. I think the specs are great.  What are the shortcomings, so I know?  Thank you.
  • I'd like to know this as well. Some of my coworkers have really nice looking Android phones... Gorgeous display, super thin, and light. I hope Microsoft's new ones are like this. I want my coworkers to be envious of mine for a change, and not just say "that's pretty nice". I'm an avid Microsoft fan (and shareholder), so I'll be one to buy regardless, but they have so much competition in this space.
  • Spec wise they are really really great. Awesome. Wonderful...   However, the design seems kind of a mid range phone. To be put blunt, the 950XL looks very very similar to my 640XL. Which is a mid ranger. In my opinion, high end phone should show some differentiation to the naked eye rather than the internals.   And another rumour is that they are going to come in black and white only. That really puts me off and pushes me to the verge. Why in the world I buy a Lumia which is either black or white? There are gazillion phones comes in black and white. Bold colour will differentiate a Lumia in a sea of Android and iPhone. Even though Android does indeed comes in various colours, the exterior of Lumia seems a lot better than them.   When I read news like that, I really missed Nokia right away. It seems that Microsoft is trying to put an example of what a real Windows 10 mobile can do for other OEMs and trying(hoping) their level best to get others on board rather than set themselves apart from the competition. I guess If it's Nokia, a company whose profit mostly depends on device and not services, is in the game, we might have gotten some phones that are also camera friendly.   When I flaunt my Lumia 920, others know that it is a flagship even before I open my mouth about the internals. If I flaunt my Lumia 640XL, others like it the best when they know the price. And if the renders come to reality just the same, others will ask me why the phone looks cheap for sure. They look premium for a mid ranger but look plain for a high end.
  • Nokia got out of that game, because we saw making Windows Phones is a losing proposition
  • Yeah, I dont get the hate either - I like what we've seen so far of the hardware. I'm more concerned with things like no wiresless payments, messaging that seems to be forever in limbo, and of course, the lack of real progress on the app front (which I expect to start picking up some in 2016).
  • The design is uninspired, the specs are comparable to phones more than a year old, and there is no killer feature - nothing to make this phone stand out amoung other phones. They are nice phones, sure, just not quite flagship phones in my opinion. I really hope that there is a "surface" flagship phone around the corner, otherwise the competition is starting to look nice right about now.
  • They look like the cheap Lumia phones Nokia made earlier and I'm not a fan of the speaker on the back of the phone.  That's my take on it.
     
  • People think the 950 and 950xl look boring. But let's consider the 920 for example. It's not especially flashy, it just had some colour options. Curved-ish screen at the edges of the glass. I doubt the 950 is going to have straight as a bone glass, so it'll likely have the same curved at the edges screen as the 920, but you just can't see it in the leaked renders because they are just elevations. I think the 950 and 950xl will be really nice looking phones. Well, the only point against the 950 i have is the back camera looks a little cheap, with that thick metal ring around it. The 950xl looks spot on though.
  • Agreed, for the most part.  However, it just goes to show you how subjective "styling" is, I've seen many people who think that the 950 looks slicker than the XL "because of" the camera (more metal = better looking...no matter where the metal is.) That's why I say just wait until you have phones in hand because renders and photos often don't tell the whole story (I hated the Icon's renders/photos then when I saw the actual phones I was stunned at how great looking the white one was...I bought it right away.)
  • Have you seen the  s6 pics that show a straight on front view and back view,People re crazy about it, but those views looks boring too....lol..Its just that it's a render.        
  • @mildmanneredjanitor - Definitely one of the better phones out there.  I would not even think about upgrading if it had LTE in the states.
  • @mildmanneredjanitor  That is my thought. I am considering a 930 too. Still, my L1020 has only a year and I spent what I consider a lot of money on it to just ditch it.. .on the other hand, the ageing is showing. Battery lasts only 8 hours, 4 when on heavy use. Screen shows ghosting. Letters, icons and textboxes are already faintly burnt in the screen Sometimes the OS becomes sluggish for no apparent reason. Some apps are just slow. Phone gets warm relativelly quick (30 mins of whatsapp + facebook and it is warm and uncomfortable) I think I will get a 930 when I decide to replace the phone.
  • Windows Central can help mitigating some negativism by separating out the 'General Discussions' posts from the news articles.  I'm sick of reading the "Do you honestly plan to buy another WP?" post everyday. 
  • Yeah, I agree, and it's also annoying that they are made to look so much like news items, that I've been "tricked" by them a few times.
  • They are trending threads, the more active a thread is it will appear on front page. I doubt they are being manually put there.
  • Excatly. Thats how most pages work.
  • Indeed! Even we here in the community does have some disagreements, positive or negative comments about Microsoft and its products. Its really because we just simply care about the platform and in Microsoft things in general, we want to make it best if not the best. In the very end, we all want Microsoft efforts to be successful and not waste those. We just want a platform we've invested in to be satisfying and something we can be proud of. I don't think we intent to put someone (Microsoft) down, but we just want to point out the mistakes needs to be fixed and highlight great things needs to continue and spread it out.
  • I just want the damn site and the app to work. Since the redesign, it has been like Windows 10 (on any device): looks good but LOTS of rough edges. The site is especially bad on WP8.1 Mobile IE. And really, it's not much better on IE11, especially the comment editor. By extension, this just adds to my frustration with the whole situation with Windows 10 (on any device) Daniel was talking about. Forget spending money on a laptop to use/review. Spend that money on fixing the site and app.
  • Nist, Nist, Nist.... Is the WP community imploding❔❔❔❔
    ........
    For the past year, or so, I've been warning you guys that MS just isn't doing enough.... Originally it was MARKETING, but that quickly became overshadowed by a lack OF NEW HIGH END DEVICES....... Nevertheless, the WP sheep here didn't take me seriously.. I knew the situation was critical a long time ago....
    ....
    THIS ARTICLE IS LATE.. IT SHOULD'VE BEEN PUBLISHED A YEAR AGO..... SMDH..
  • I believe it's Tsk.Tsk.Tsk. & all valid points. WP's only hope is Enterprise with the assurance of always up-to-date secure devices. Speaking of which... somebody taking applicants?
  • Yeah... WM10 is the Blackberry of Blackberry... Lol.
  • - Tupac
  • The blacker the berry the sweeter the juice?
    Yeah, well, she blacker than a MoFo too....
  • And, another thing..... I understand that we need to stay positive, and I admit to being hard on Daniel, myself.... But, the fact that these City/Talk leaks are already disappointing is seriously bad news!!! The only thing that could be good about these leaks is if they are an intentionally leak by MS meant to divert attention from something possibly appealing....
    ............
    But, if not then WM10 is already a failure... MS is already loosing money as they tool up assembly lines... SMDH.... And, we can already see it down the line, right now!!..... I have faith that the OS will be fine.. I mean, MS hasn't ever really failed us in that department, and we have no reason to think they will with WM10.......
    But, there's just no exciting hardware in site for it to run on, so what are we supposed to think???..... As much as I love WP/WM we really are all a bunch of fools to believe things will be different this time around.... But, like Daniel said,, it's our choice to stick around....
    .......
    Well, I'm a GD fool, because I'm going to wait it out, and see what happens...... I guess the good news is that I still have my 1520 (The best WP device to date, and in the foreseeable future).. That's the best I can do, besides pray one day that Nokia rises from it's ashes, makes an Android device, and then decides to make WM10 devices..... Because, MS has definitely killed the essence of Lumia.... At least, for now, it appears they have...
  • But Rodneyej, I get the hohum on the Wphones but then I have looked at the others and I get the same hohum feeling? The new iphones were nothing .... a liitle bit of garnish for an old dish and not even new garnish just borrowed.  The fact is there is not much going on anywhere...        
  • But, the iPhone 6 was hot when it came out.. It's a great device.... The difference between Apple, and MS is that Apple stuck with a good thing, and MS digressed.
  • I've got one, and no, it's not really that great. If you've seen one iPhone, you've seen them all. Boring as hell. Bring on the Cityman!
  • If you've seen a Lumia phone, you've seen them all ... 
  • Apple has incrementally built on a stable platform year after year adding features, ironing out the kinks. MS started over with WP7, then started over with WP8, WP8.1 was the first iterative improvement on a "stable" platform and was probably the best mobile OS we've seen. Now, they're starting over again with a brand new OS again. It will be a bit buggy, missing features and have to grow. I'm sure it will be fantastic in a couple of years. The question is, will anyone care any more?
  • @ pallentx This times 1000 - I am sticking with Windows Mobile as I just dont like iOS or Android (have had an iPhone and have an Android Phone as well as my Nokia) but its not a mature OS, it will take time to mature and hopefully now they are stopped reinventing the wheel we can get the nice stuff. I am just hoping they keep at it rather than just giving up I would hate to loose Windows Mobile (Phone)
  • So what I'm getting from all this is that the only thing that matters about a device is looks. I guess you're right. We really just are shallow people who are just the by-products of a lifestyle obsession. The only that matters about a phone is how cool it makes us look. Samsung obvisiously figured it out. The S6 is a prime example of that. Hell, look what they did to the Note 5. Took all the stuff that hardcore users love about that phone and threw it out just for the sake of looks. So you're right. This is all for not. For no other reason than the Cityman and Talkman phones aren't going to make me look cool. 
  • That's way too cynical... Nobody said that the only thing that matters is looks... See, this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that a lot of WP fans are nothing but sheep.. No offense, but your comment is a poor excuse to try and Justify a shortcoming... Justifying short comings is pathetic....
    .......
    Now, looks aren't everything, but they are a lot... Are you not aware of the market share situation Lumia devices are in? Not aware of the app situation?... Really? Come on, man.... The average consumer wants what's appealing on the surface... WM can't survive with just us... You know what?? Ok, looks are everything. Ok? They are... We need market share, we need the average consumer to buy Lumia devices, we need developer support, so these devices better be damn good on the surface... I mean, they are going up against some pretty tough competition, competition that's virtually impossible to beat at this point... And, you question whether looks are everything❔❔❔
    What everyone, including MS, fails to realize is that every aspect of their devices are everything.. Everything to be perfect in every area, there's no room for faults, or mistakes.... And, especially looks! We are talking about store shelves here! Lol! SMDH... Wow! Everything has to be amazing...... And, we should expect no less.
  • How am I trying to justify a short coming? I'm pointing out that we are nothing but shallow people and care more about looks than anything else. I wasn't being sarcastic.  You're right, everything needs to be amazing. I have a Note 4 and it is AMAZING. It's amazing how Google Now thinks my home address is my work address and vice versa even though I have it inputted correctly into the app. It's also amazing that I have looked and found no way to fix that. It's also amazing the keyboard crashes on regular basis. It's also amazing that I've had more text fail to send this past month then the whole 3 years I used WP. But you know what is really the most amazing about this phone? What's most amazing is that the Note 4 isn't even a year old and Samsung has pretty much stopped giving a crap about it. All those new awesome software features built into the Note 5 and S6, which include better battery life and camera functionality, well those are part of the new version of TouchWiz and Samsung has made no signs that they are going to bring those over to the Note 4. Actually, you know what, now I get it. The Note 4 isn't pretty enough to update. 
  • Man, you've made my day!
  • Me too, my wife has a tab 3 and she got it after I got my Acer tab, it is now on her bedside table gathering dust while my tab is now her go to device running as fast as it was when I got it!
  • Man, your focus is in the wrong place... Pointing out iDroids shortcomings is useless... The fact is that for whatever iDroid devices are their developers have found a way to make them popular.... That's the bottom line...
    ......
    You can sit hear and talk about how WP is better till you're blue in the face, and it doesn't matter.. Nobody hears you..... Remember all that talk I did about Marketing❔ Well, look at what you're saying now... Your comment sounds as if you're complaining about awareness, and that I would have to agree with you on.... But, that's MS job to fix... Who are you really gonna convince that WP is better than iDroid, the average consumer?? Good luck with that... The only thing that's gonna convince the majority is a seriously relentless marketing campaign that overshadows EVERYTHING! There's just no point telling WP fans, in a Windows website, how iDroid is less desirable.. Lol..
  • If you believe that people don't buy clothes, cars, houses, watches, phones etc partially due to what they offer, but also how they look, you live in a strange world. The Surface Pro line is the perfect example. Here we have a great device that is also stylish and it sells.
    Rubbish designed phones won't sell. Simple as that!
  • I'm saying that's obviously the only reason to buy anything. Who cares how clothes fit as long as they make me look cool. Who cares how a car drives or how reliable it is as long as it makes me look cool. Who cares if the house is a money pit as long as it makes me seem cool. Who cares how a guitar sounds or plays as long as it makes me look cool. Now if Apple could make a house, car, clothes, and guitar so we know what cool looks like my life would be so much easier.
  • But, who in this world ever said that looks only matter??? That's you're own personal generalization... People just think looks are just as important, so for MS to gain traction they have to be there as well.... There is no room for error when you're playing catchup for five years, going on six........ Why do you argue that?. Lol.
  • I'm going off the assumption that you are saying looks are the only thing that matters since all we have with the City/Talkman leaks is just images. You seem to think that they are really disappointing, so if you aren't going off looks then what are you basing this on?
  • You are the only one here saying only looks matter..... read the comments and see. We are saying that part of peoples buying choice relates to how things look..... like I want a red car or a blue car....... like I want a phone with a keyboard or not....... like I want a phone with a particular design. No one is being shallow, they are making choices based on what they like. It's not being shallow, it's called consumer choice.
  • No, I went thru and Rod mentions looks several times.
  • You're right.. The device has to be firing on all 8 cylinders. Everything has to be perfect.
  • Your prayers will be answered Rod. Well...up to the point of "decides to make WM10 devices". Nokia is not run my masochists anymore ;P But I'll be here (or there) to welcome you to the Android family and help you out setting your Microsoft services on your future Nokia Android device ;)
  • Maybe so... Who knows. I can only go on being a pathetic sheep for so long..
  • You know you're one of the worst people on here for talking things down. Now going as far as calling us all sheep if we happen to disagree with your point of view. I happen to like Cityman. In person it will look better and I'm going to be far happier with its feature set. I wouldn't say the design has digressed, just that MS has gone for practicality and usability. Samsung are the ones digressing especially with their Note as they've made it into something it shouldn't be.
    HidingTrouble I agree with your point completely too. I have a Note 4 (plus other Android phones) and the amount of crashing, errors and lag just makes me go back to my 1520. Note 4 wasn't bad until it received Lollipop. Slow as hell now.
  • You say it looks great, but the majority says otherwise.... OK. Ok, you expect for MS to sell devices that way? Lol. Come on man. Wake up.
  • See. Im right. It all comes down to looks and what the majority thinks.
  • Nah, Rodneyej is one of the best people on here. He is very entertaining. He says it's not about looks then says it is. He brings up marketing so much I have to assume he works at an ad firm that has Microsoft as a client. His marketing rants also don't take into consideration that perhaps that MS has done the math and decided that the billions that they would need to spend wouldn't be worth the gamble. Or that marketing doesn't change the zeitgeist. He talks about growing market share when Microsoft has said they are done trying to grow their smartphone business. He calls us sheep but you and I have moved on and others as well because I keep seeing "posted from Windows Central for Android" more and more in the comments. Every good drama needs conflict and Rodneyej brings it. Do you ever see him comment on positive stories? Nope. He only comes to complain and I enjoy reading it(and egging it on). Side note, yeah Lollipop ruined the Note 4. The hilarity about that is that I've read that Samsung seems to have ironed out the kinks in the new version of TouchWiz and 5.1.1 and of course the Note 4 doesn't seem to be getting it.
  • Dj should I go Note 5 or wait for the Z5 premium? I've always stuck to Samsung but Sony looks to have stepped up this year.
    I'll check on windows late 2016 I think. Posted via the WC App for Galaxy S6
  • If you are use to Samsung then I suggest you go into a phone shop, turn up the brightness on a Sony and Samsung phone to high, then compare the brightness, vibrancy etc. Sony makes great phones but the screen always disappoints me. But that's personal taste.
  • I doubt that as the screen on the Z3 outclasses just about everything on the market in terms of screen brightness. Why you ask? I own one. :) Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • I am thinking the same. How is it MS is able to keep the surface pro 4 and the band 2 and whatever else they will come out with a secret?? but the phones keep getting leaked.... So much that we already know everything about these phones......
    At least that's what I am hoping.
  • It does make sense.... MS is intentionally leaking trash... Lol.. But, seriously.
  • It's the carriers. The marketing campaigns are organized in good time and the renders are shared with the carriers, and they leak like <fill in the empty slot>.
  • I sure hope you're wrong.. Lol.. Because these leaks don't look nowhere near final.
  • Once again, looks
  • Sit tight, Surface phone is coming (maybe first half of 2016), MS has shown it (or rather early renders) and it's everything you'd expect. Think surface pro design style, beefy specs and probably matching price tag.
  • We've been sitting here since 2010-11 waiting on a surface phone when the rumors started back then. By now, we should be on the third iteration.... Like the surface pro 3 is! We've lost some die hard Windows phone users, not because of the OS or app shortcomings, but because they were simply tired of waiting for the flagship phones we've been told were coming soon. I honestly think if Balmer was still in charge at Microsoft, we would have the flagships, Office would have been on WP first or simultaneously with other platforms. Satya seems to have put WP last on his to do list. His current actions show his displeasure with Balmer's decision to purchase Nokia(d & s). Balmer knew how important mobile was, that's why he approved the purchase. I like Satya's Cloud vision, but I don't think he has a mobile hardware vision at all; I remember almost two years ago, Microsoft had plan b Surface phone prototypes. Where are they? Answer, "Satya canned them". Has said he axed the surface mini because it wasn't a game changer and wouldn't compete well against competing devices, yet we get these renderings of talkman/cityman that also don't compete, especially when they're late to the party. You're supposed to learn from your processors mistakes! We were late to the mobile party once under Balmer. Well Balmer purchased a capable mobile division in Nokia and what has Satya done with it? We all know the answer to that question. Sound off on it guys!
  • You're exactly right... I completely agree.
  • You cannot build a Surface Phone until you have an x86 mobile chip from Intel.  That will arrive in early (cross my fingers) 2016.  the chip is called boxtron.  It will probbly run at 2 watts and compete well against qualcomm.  Intel's 14 nm process is superior to TSMC or Samsung.  But the design process is taking for ever with Intel.
  • Your departure is late, Should have happened a year ago...
  • Lolololollololollolololololl....... Good one. Almost laughed so hard.....
    .........
    We should've both left a year ago,,,, especially seeing what we're seeing now.. Hahaha!!
  • It hurts everytime I read your comments. Stop using those dots and you are telling anything new.
  • You aren't
  • Lol!!!!!!!!! You mean to tell me you don't like this...............................................................................................................................................................................................-....---------.........-----._______________ .
  • Be like Tim. Acknowledge and carry on ))) Posted via the WC App for Galaxy S6
  • Keep using those dots!! I like how you break up your thoughts rather some long bunch of words!
  • This guys says it hurts his eyes......
    I'm trying to give his beady little eyes a break... Lol.
  • Its not "this guy" its every guy. We all find your childish formating, and juvenile view of the world most tedious.
  • Leaving is easy... There's not even a door. Bye!  
  • LOL
  • Well I can fix it. Ms I think does not want it fixed. They should cut their end users lose or hire me to fix it. BTW Samsung is not doing that great. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • doing better than WP. 
  • To be a WP fan, and say "Samsung is not doing great",,,, is EXACTLY like saying nothing at all.......
  • Really Rodney?
  • Really.
  • At least the article is there.
    #Be#Happy
  • Why should you make it about YOU ? You're not the only one waiting for high end devices.. I don't understand the "me me me me, I told you" argument. Totally pointless.
  • Maybe you don't understand it, but you damn well better believe it, son.
  • ,
  • Yeah MS are masters of screwing up but you can't blame them for not releasing a flagship right b4 WP10 launch. Imagine the media storm they would get. That being said yes it suck big time.
  • What sucks big time❔❔❔❔❔❔❔❔
  • OH MY F'ING GODD STOP SAYING "SMDH" !!!! It makes you look irrelevant and no one is going to take you seriously if you sound like a wimpy 5 year old.
  • I'm supposed to care if you don't take my point seriously... Lolollololololol!!!!
    ......
    Are you kidding me?.. SMDH.
  • Good one!
  • LOL, you were warning everyone? Oh shiz, we totally should have jumped ship because rodneyej tol' all uh us that MS no doin' enuff, shucks. The real question then is if you knew this and it's nothing but WP sheep here, what are you doing here?
  • OK, Rodney - Let's put it in your lap and see how you would change things? How many High-End devices would you have Microsoft put out into the Retail pipeline? 2? 4? 14? Pick a number? Are you a Marketing Analyst? How many combined years of Marketing experience do you have versus the ENTIRE Marketing staff of Microsoft? How about Product Design? What's your experience there? Software Development? Sales? One does not simply bolster sales by putting more, only slightly different brands of "Product Design X" when other companies that design & build harware that runs on very similar hardware platforms that your "Product Design X" does. There is a "Tipping Point" that will happen very soon concerning "SillyValley" phones - since there has been nearly ZERO innovation from Cupertino or Mountain View over the last 2 years: iOS and Android still look the same, function still the same, with minimal innovation. Apple's newest innovation is something that Steve Jobs originally said that nobody wanted for an Apple product. That's their "innovation". Touch Point/Pressure causing a pseudo-pageflip for apps? Ooh, how innovative! Give the community something in this thread that shows us that we should take your thinking any more seriously than people that have had DECADES of experience. (from a former Software Test Engineer and MSFix Team memeber, and a memeber of the WindowsNT 3.1 DevTeam)  
  • Would you happen to be running beta software that is still a work in progress? Just saying because we have to keep in mind that the Windows Insider program is nothing any other mobile OS has given us the opportunity to help them TEST.
  • next time that happens hold all 4 buttons (volume is two buttons) at the same time and it will reboot
  • You're missing the point. Exclusive apps are bad. You want and need the best windows apps to be in the hands of everybody to lessen the barriers of switching. If Cortana and office etc are so good then let it compete. With cross platform penetration you back door the app problem and hope hardware comes through. Yes you can switch to them happily but the goal is to ensure the same is true for their users looking at us. The app problem is a cycle that must be broken proactively. If the apps flop over there or the hardware doesn't catch up then there was never any hope
  • Microsoft sells software, get Apple users to use Microsoft software and you get potential software customers. I'm not too sure its to bring them to WP.
  • If i were in your place waiting for a flagship and my daily driver dies on me i'd pick a 640 or even a 540 as a stopgap and then grab the flagship once available. Bith these devices are quite capable and will perform well compared to the 1020.
  • My 8X just cracked coming off a 3yr contract here in Canada. Don't want to waste an upgrade on the 830 but that's really all we have half decent on my carrier. Was debating between blu win hd lte and 640 since the former is actually sold here unlocked on MS store while the later isn't. Think im gonna snag an unlocked 640 from the US on eBay though since it'll still he about $40-50cdn cheaper
  • Or buy an unlocked 1520 or 930 off of eBay. They're pretty cheap these days and still excellent phones. Whatever you do, don't get a carrier subsidized phone. Check out BYOD plans, and you can get $15 off your monthly plan without a contract... that adds up quickly.
  • Well I have a budget limit at the moment and in Canada we have the import charges and pay like 30c extra on the dollar due to the exchange rate. I' m keeping an eye out for a good deal on top phones still though. Right now I just got off Bell and the wife's contract with Rogers just ended. Her bill dropped and she doesn't want to waste her upgrade on an 830 so close to new announcements. Right now I'm going to jump on her plan with a new phone for like $15 extra and work Rogers to give her a new upgrade later without seeing a price increase albiet we'll probably lock in for 2yrs. I am hoping MS copies a bit from Apples upgrade program. I like the idea of paying a monthly for a new phone annually without locking into a carrier contract.
  • Yeah, the exchange rate is killer right now. I'm in Canada, as well, on Virgin. Any reason you went with Bell and Rogers instead of one of the budget carriers? I've found you pay far less for the same plans on the same network. I jumped on a deal with Virgin in June, and am paying just $44 a month for unlimited talk and text and 1GB data (which probably isn't a good deal anywhere but Canada), but even now the same plan is only $55/month which would save you $5/month over the exact same plans from the big three.
  • Proceed with cation... Specifically if you are referring to Groove Music. I dragged my wife with me on WIndows Phones from HTC Radar to 920 to 1020... Once her 1020 took a dump she wouldn't bite on an 830 jumped ship to iPhone and has been pinning on pinterest like a bot since. Most of the services are good and for someone like my wife who had lived in Windows Phone ecosystem for years, that in fact became THE KEY to her making the decision she did. Specifically the tipping point being the fact that her camera roll could STILL be thrown up to OneDrive. Groove is still a nightmare, crashes like a beta. This is where MSFT is in between a rock and a hard place. They have become so irrelavent in the mobile space that Satya was forced to push their services onto platforms that matter, making it extremely easy for fans who have lost their patience to jump ship, casualties no doubt that MSFT saw coming and could do nothing about. I hate when people claim they don't get it and didn't realize that this was going to happen. Of course they did, but they have no choice: they must stay relavent in the mobile space. I hope they continue to improve the services, if they do not then it is all for nothing. That being said, I also believe this is why we may see a Surface Phone soon, the ONLY momentum they have in Mobile is Surface, as Daniel stated, even Apple copied them due to the success it's having. And because of THIS SP POSIBILITY, all of this gloom, this dark place we have been in the last year (seems like an eternity) a light may finally be at the end of the VERY LONG tunnel. The sad part is how many more people will really leave after cityman talkman release is lackluster and we must wait yet again until spring or early summer for a PREMIUM surface phone.      
  • Agree with you that MS needed to move their services to competing platform to stay relevent in Mobile space... Heck I can even agree that they needed to release apps/services on rival platforms earlier than windows as it made business sense... What I don't get is that they have not been able to make half-decent apps on their own platform (WP8.1 & Win10) compared to iOS... Skype is bad, Modern Office on even Win10 is not looking as great as what was demoed on iPad Pro... Sway only launched with Win10... more than a year after debuting on iOS... This is unacceptable and the doom of WP has been brought about by MS themselves... I would switch to iPhone if I could afford... and I am not going to buy Cityman/Talkman unless its half the price of iPhone.... I know people would call me a troll or whatever... but I see my friends using iPhone and they are very happy... The only thing I would miss is the Offline Maps & routing from Here and the great keyboard.... But with Here launching on iOS/Android... Offline routing can't be faroff....
  • Here is already here, at least on Android so far as I'm concerned, and it works beautifully
  • If only MS could get their s*** together and make the OS great at launch and their own services on par with what they offer on Android and IOS.Now if they could pair that with a SurfacePhone in the same quality as the SP4 (vaporrmag, great finish etc) wouldn't that be something great to show the world???  
  • It will be good at launch, but I dont expect "great" until some time next year. They started from scratch with a brand new OS. They'll be lucky to get all the major bugs out and have it stable by launch.
  • Coming Soon ©
  • The real issue in your story is that the hardware wasn't good enough. Forcing people to stay artificially through app restrictions is a terrible long term strategy nonetheless. If WP had an enticing phone she probably would have stayed. I did say if the hardware doesn't keep up the ecosystem has no chance As far as pinterest, you'll have to count me as one who believes universal apps will address the windows app problem and we'll see that by this time next year
  • hmm, happened to me too yesterday, 1020 - all fine now - wondering is there any greater cosmic significance to this : )))
  • Mine froze also -
    Power button / volume button down
    Fixed
    My 1020 is getting old and I am excited to see these new developments for Windows phone
  • Where does this perception that MS care more about other platforms come from? Seriously, compile me a list please of where Android or Apple MS apps are better. Occasionally first, mostly not by much - but you guys hang on to it and believe it like its some kind of religeon. Its a myth we need to dispell. Did Windows 10 just come out for Mac? Is the Xbox Win 10 OS going onto iPad this year? MS are painfully slow sometimes, but this "they love other platforms more" nonsense has to stop. Put up a list, or let this myth dispell.
  • Personally i think its fine if MS releases there apps first on ios and android, that way they can collect data and feed back to give winows phone users a better app. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Hwangeruk nadella released office 2016 before to mac than Windows, this man is doing interests of their competitors and want to change ms into an internet service provider (cloud) with a lot of big data mining Services...
    I don't trust this man, it recalls me ceo that destroyed sw division in ibm Like Palmisano did
    Ms releasing better apps or apps before on other competitors'os is just destroying it's own brand and loosing credibility in the Long time..
    Now all big applause to Satya momentum...
    But the troubles will come later
    I'm not a ms shareholder so at a certain moment.. Who cares?
    I still love wp, i still love all my lumia, don't love anymore ms and don't trust anymore on them
    Thanks Satya!
    Hope the board will kick you out before it's too late
  • As a MSFT shareholder, I do like Nadella's vision. Forget about Office for mac... The last version for mac was 2011, and they were pain to use. And seeing now office is making money using office 365 subscription... I don't see any points that they can't release before they do on windows, as long as they are ready...
  • He know what he is doing.
  • Actually, I feel that it is other way around. If you are choosing a CEO, you should really hope that he has a statistics background or engineering background. If Steve Ballmer had either of those in his background, I feel that he would have not messed up with the whole mobile thing. Satya Nadella on the other hand had an engineering background and he knew what he is doing - however, that does not pleases everyone. Getting Office 2016 first on a Mac is the only one thing that I can approve with him having to release it first on that platform. If you have ever used Office for Mac 2011, you would know that it is more inferior compared to the Office 2013 for PC. If us PC users are pretty content with Office 2013, but Mac users aren't with the really outdated version, what would be a better priority? Of course the one where more people are not content. Also, getting an Office for Mac was long overdue, Now regarding having apps updated first on competing platforms - that I do not agree with. Taking my statement above, they should be prioritizing the platform where the apps are more inferior.
  • And the Mac Office version still includes only the 5 basic application: Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook and OneNote. Only on Windows can you get the full Office suite (Access, Publisher, Visio, Project, etc.). Sounds like they still give preferential treatment to their own platform to me...
  • its a lot of little things that Microsoft has not been able to build upon. It does suck that it seems they cannot keep up with the other platforms. Go no further than skype and groove music. Skype works so much better on other platforms, and since WP8, the music app has been second rate to other offerings.
  • Wait WP has a music app??? /S
  •  I think a lot of it comes from the fact that MSFT promotes their apps (like Office) on other platforms (iOS/Android) but doesn't do such a stellar job promoting it on Windows 10 or Windows 10 mobile. I mean all they needed to say when they introduced the Office apps for the iPad Pro was "these are AMAZING apps on the iPad Pro, and you can do some truly great things on with them on the iPad Pro, but they're ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE on a Surface or on a phone running Windows 10".
  • You seem to be comparing Modern/Touch version of Office to Desktop one... If you compare the the Touch version on both... iPad Pro version seems better than Win10...
  • The two that I personally use the most that I miss on Windows Mobile & even Windows 10 are: 1. Outlook email 2. Sunrise calendar
  • Are you seriously gonna sit here, and ask this question in front of thousands who already know this to be FACT❔
  • There's no point in retorting to everyone about this Rodney. The few who deny the fact that MS likes to take precedence over their own are either new to the platform or having some serious cognitive dissonance problems right now. -I've been here since 2007 too. I feel more alienated on this platform than ever because of this. Which is probably why I use Android and WP equally now. Sadly I was a such a fanboy of this OS for years after 7 released. That perspective changes soon enough if you stay on the platform long enough. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • I too bought the very first WP 7 LG phone (with a slide out keyboard), fell in love with the OS immediately. Bought 3 Nokia 1520s for wife, self, and duaghter. Loved them. but. no market share, no apps. no apps, no market share. I still would prefer to have WP OS over android and apple, but I gave up. I have an iPhone 6 and Samsung S6 Edge. Wife and daughter went iPhone 6.  Got tired of waiting for MS to get somewhere. Here it is years later, and it's no better. No phones, broken OS, some of the apps I did have, geico, dropped all support for WP and removed their app from the app store...  There is a time when you must stick a fork in it and call it done.  I still have a nokia 1520.  haven't even turned it on is 4 months now. Done. New MS phones. ugly. no sale. Done.
  • Outlook Email - better than Mail on Windows 8.1 and Outlook on W10 so far Skpe - I don't have to say amnything about that Any of Microsoft's lockscreen apps on Android - better than Live Lockscreen Beta and Tetra Lockscreen Sunrise Calendar - better than Outlook calendar and Calendar on Windows 8.1 Wunderlist - better than Wunderlist or Wunderlist Beta®
  • Uhhh.... Outlook email and smart glass are both better on android and ios
  • Office is better on Android / IOS. Onenote on Windows Phone is essentially the same app it was on WP7! Wunderlist (now a Microsoft app) is better. Sunrise Calendar (purchased by MS) still isn't even available for Windows Phone. That's where the perception comes from Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • I think they are waiting on the 2 new bridges to go Live.... then they would build all the apps natively for iOS and then just port them for Win10/Mobile.. /s
  • You are on point, I also would like to see a list of Microsoft apps whose experience is better on other platforms.
  • I firmly believe Microsoft and Nedella could change all this with a little love and attention. Windows phones just seem like an annoying afterthought to Microsoft. Why is mobile still not out? How can it be taking so long to produce feature phones? Why is there no cool integration planned between Windows PCs and Windows phones? If Nedella gives a crap about phones, say something exciting about them. Show some passion for them. Something. Satya, your silence is killing your biggest fans. Say something!
  • Building a phone is hard. In Microsoft's case it's even harder because all phone components come with Linux (Android) drivers and it takes MS more time and effort to bring up every new hardware component into the WinNT environment
  • First I heard of that. If true, it also means BlackBerry would run into the same problem with BlackBerry 10.
  • Don't make excuses for them!
  • This... is BS
  • I agree 100%.  It's hard to be convinced that Nadella truly cares about Windows Phone.  I think he totally wanted to abandon it, but was afraid that the Windows community would've went ape sh*t crazy and he didn't want that to muddy the Windows 10 launch... so he hasn't pulled the plug yet.  But it's pretty clear he doesn't care.
  • I just want a Windows Phone I can brag about. 1020 and 1520 were masterpieces. OS will get better in time. Apps still is a big problem.
  • "I just want a Windows Phone I can brag about". That's pretty sad.  
  • Why is it sad? People brag about things they purchase all the time. People brag about cars, watches, computers, etc. When they like somethink, people will tell otheres about it. That is why word of mouth is a lot more powerful than any advertisement. Praise from someone you know will get you to buy something much faster than watching an ad on tv.
  • Some people brag about their stuff, not all. People like that are annoying.
  • Similiarily, the same comment could be said about people like yourself :P.
  • True. But "people bragging" has been the main reason behind Apple's auccess. We can't deny that. Bragging is "free advertisement" of a product in a way.
  • Have you thought for a second that people that brag, such as apple fans, do so because they like a product so much they can't help but share their experience with those cose to them?
  • Nope. It is because it is expensive and designer bla bla bla. Just the same as people going around bragging about how much they have spent on a pair of pants. Sad fact but thats how the world works man 
  • My 1020 was awesome. My 1520 seemed rather bland in comparison.
  • I completely agree. The Apps will come if Microsoft can deliever better product. My first laptop was a PowerBook G4, finding programs that worked on OS X was horrible, but eventually making a superior product (software and hardware) brings customers. It just takes a time. My only worry is that by the time everyone realizes how much better Windows 10 is than iOS, mobile OS will be left with two players... An aging iOS and it's clone.
  • Yes and today OS X has a massive 5% marketshare.... I love WP but if they fuck this one up (2016 cycle) then WP is dead.
  • Just read this everybody to get the complete picture. http://seekingalpha.com/article/3503146-intel-and-microsoft-will-penetra...
  • fly_branch
    This is just wishful thinking that Wintel domination will somehow transfer to mobile. It was Win32 that kept this going on the desktop.
    On Mobile, all prior tries by Intel to present a low consumption CPU failed, good GPUs+drivers too. I would be looking at AMD for better results, now that the Athlon guy is back.
    Legacy programs are not suitable for touch and are power hungry.
    ARM on the other hand has big.LITTLE that can handle all scenarios.
    Even if Intel/amd manage to present a mobile CPU for phone, android could adapt too. Intel support for android will be better than for win10.
    The only reasons to have an wiltel phone would be to context it to tv keyboard and run older windows programs / games. This goes against the new Microsoft that wants you to replace your programs with apps from the store.
  • Well it's hard to stay positive when we can't see the whole picture and it takes forever to develop while things and products are actually happening all around us. I feel like we're the guys on the Titanic playing our instruments in the face of an eventual death. We know it's coming but we want to go out with one last song. Not saying that's how this story will end but it does feel similar.
  • You may be the guy who play instryments, I on the otherhand am stuck inside the ship. I see the water comming but the door is stuck!
  • Agree.. Well said.
  • To be frank this article should have come an year back
  • What's sad is that he could've written it a year ago... and yet... nothing has changed.  We're still waiting...
  • Fully replacing pocket ie was a bad idea right now as edge feels like using ie5.5/6 impossible to use on most sites & has yet to show performance gains
  • There is another story here. One about timing. One that Microsoft can never tell us, as to do so would be damning to the platform. It takes place when Microsoft inked the deal to purchase Nokia's phone arm just over two years ago. Two years without promising new flagship hardware. What did make its way out of Nokia after that was quickly neutered in the form of the rapidly EOL'ed Icon/930, or the euthanized McLaren. It takes time to develop new hardware. Phones we get today were put into the pipeline months or years ago, and with the changeover and terminated development programs, there would be an inevitable dead-spot in new product until the new/current/MS development cycle began bearing fruit. To truly understand what was happening at that juncture, let us fast forward to today, to recognize what must have been in development back then. Microsoft today has a lot on its plate with Windows 10, its bread-and-butter, rolling out to the masses--to say nothing of developing the Surface Pro 3, Surface 3, and coming Surface Pro 4, plus systems such as Xbox, Surface Hub, HoloLens, and who-knows-what-else. And that's just hardware. We must not forget critical apps such as the coming 2016 Office Suite, Cortana, Grove, and Bing and all of its associated services. Quite a lot on its plate, indeed. Knowing that this past year or two has likely been one of the busiest in Microsoft's history, you might wonder why Microsoft would choose to take on the task of reinventing their mobile device in-house. Why now? Here is the answer: Microsoft didn't choose to do this now. It had no other options. Nokia had put all of their eggs in the Windows Phone basket. It was becoming increasingly clear to the Finnish corporation that had they gone with Android, they would have ultimately been in much better shape. But they did not. They took a risk on Microsoft, and it didn't pay off. So Nokia decided it was time to cut their losses. They didn't consult with Microsoft's timeline, they simply made the decision. If you will recall, Nokia controls some 97% of all Windows Phones these days. Clearly, the loss of Nokia would mean an instant end to Windows Phone. Even Nokia falling into the wrong hands could have been disastrous for Microsoft, potentially losing technology to competing platforms, or more likely, mismanaged to a slow death and negative PR for Microsoft. Microsoft's only viable option was to buy out Nokia--ready, or not. That's not an excuse for what has transpired, but I believe it to be an accurate depiction. Given the total reboot of both hardware AND software for Microsoft's phones, the prolonged delay seems to make more sense. From the marketing side of the equation, however, the longer Microsoft coasts [downhill] without fresh fruit on the vine, the more arduous their journey back up to viability will be. Microsoft's internal timelines and development aren't the concern of the buying public. The question then is, when Microsoft finally does have a product to offer that public, will they still care? Will they even notice?
  • That right now is old news, what really did not help was cutting almost all the windows phone division out of the blue. After the acquisition there was a re-org and just under a year later another but on the phone side. It would be impossible to stay on or accelerate any sort of development with massively reduced testing, coding and re-iteration hours available. You either increase the staff available or just cut, package and readjust the entire project or division line to match resources available thus pushing back projects by months or closing them indefinitely. A person can only do so much.
  • What happened with Google's purchase of Motorola?
  • Google sold Motorola to Lenovo.http://www.androidcentral.com/lenovo-acquire-motorola-mobility-google-29...
  • The lion's share of the Nokia staff that were let go from Microsoft post-acquisition were Marketing, Sales & Sales Support Staff...or, didn't you get the memo?
  • "We must not forget critical apps such as the coming 2016 Office Suite, Cortana, Grove, and Bing and all of its associated services. Quite a lot on its plate, indeed." This is exactly what's wrong:  Office on phones is irrelevant. Cortana is irrelevant (and doesn't work outside the US anyway). Groove is as crappy as XBM. Bing is sth noone uses. Microsoft keeps working on things noone needs. But you still can't sync your music properly. you still can't choose the sent-folder for Emails. you still can't sync your podcasts. you still can't remote control your Raspberry Pi (no Apps). you stil can't auto-upload your photos to your local NAS. you still can't search for events in the calendar. you still can't ... So many things, ah, and don't forget that we were given week-view in calendar only in 2014!  
  • Well, the purpose of the Raspberry Pi is to be tinkered with. So if you want an app to remote control it, write one :)
  • ...or I'll just buy an android device...
  • Well, It doesn't help that most moderators and enthusiest in the forums do become incredibly stuck up explaining things from a non existent ivory tower, I completely felt shocked when I got a warning for using asterisks with the moderators claiming that it was profanity while a newscaster would say words like "F'ing" on live tv with no problem nowadays, and couldn't help but feel that because my comments were negative to MS images that I was being prosecuted, it didn't help when an article I wrote which made complete sense was rediculed as senseless by moderators or members. The forums are becoming something like one guy is complaining about lack of water and the other people in the room are telling him, you don't know how water works, we must allow our landlord to conserve water or else he will die, let's just not get him upset.  
  • A news caster and a forum are not even comparible... each forum on the web has it's own policy.    
  • Thanks for taking the time to explain this, still I actually have used this many times in the forums before, this why I was startled me when it suddenly became a big deal.
  • It's hard to take Microsoft seriously in mobile when they move so damn slow.  I mean, seriously... we waited 18 months for these generic-looking phones?  It's pretty obvious that Microsoft doesn't really give a rat's ass about mobile, and the only reason Nadella didn't abandon it completely is because the Microsoft fanboys would've went ape sh*t crazy about it... and he didn't want that muddying the launch of Windows 10.    But when you look at these phones, it's hard to be convinced that Nadella cares about mobile hardware or Windows Phone at all. They're not ugly--they're just meh.  Nadella's apathy for mobile is as obvious of the blue in those images.
  • People you must watch Apple's show of the new Iphone 6s. They're presenting Live Images as their new groundbreaking TECHNOLOGY, and they will sell it for almost 1000 euros without contract! Microsoft is gonna be eaten by Apple and the others, 'cause they don't have marketing at all. Lumia + win10 may be the best product in the world, but that's irrelevant if you don't know how to sell it.
  • WC Community: The Glass is half empty.
    Daniel: The Glass is half full.
    Microsoft: The Glass is coming soon.
  • Hilarious!!!
  • © Coming Soon
  • One of the things that I have noted, over time, is that Apple users pretty much wait for Apple to tell them what they want.  They may read rumours and have expectations, but, when the devices come out, and they do not meet those expectations, they seem to just go "oh, well" and start talking about next year's devices. Whereas, MS users hear rumours and see Phototshopped renditions of someones fururistic design and they set their expectations, accordingly.  But, when the device does not meet those expectations, however outlandish they may be, they go ballistic. 
  • Game Over Champ time to set your sights on a new device and just watch this boat keep sinking They have neglected the platform for too long and people will not believe the lies of watch what Microsoft has coming soon I hope they drop the terrible devices they have been building get them out so everyone can go ahead and move to a phone that is complete and will make them happy
  • Exactly. My analogy would be: say you're a kid, and your friends (other fanboys) ridicule you for the choice you make, constantly. You maybe can still endure that. But what hurtful is when your parents start neglecting you and, worse, take side with the bullies instead. No wonder some WP fans can be so unruly.   If there's something we can learn from this is: it does NOT pay to be a fanboy of a tech industry (especially Microsoft). I've been recently embracing the other two mobile OSes, it feels better that way; no frustration, no heartache. The best of three worlds. Like Daniel said, I am venturing out, but I'm ready to come back.
  • I agree with this entirely, this site is very informative and I think we need to see the potential in Windows. Every platform has it's issues. Microsoft has a great software backing though and, if not for Ballmer, Microsoft would be up there. Alas, lets give it a chance.   I just wish, like said above, that for apps like Skype we would begiven the better version. Why shouldn't we get the type of Skype, like on Android, where we can Skype and use another app at the same time and let the person see our face. Or other non-Microsoft apps like FB Messenger, why don't we get video chat or calling? 
  • The big four - Phones, apps, users, OS. A royal catch-22 for us right now. The new OS is okay in a iOS meh way, the two flagship phones are early 2012 cool and even basic apps are lacking so new users are uninterested and current users have Palpatines number on speed dial. Phone makers are uninterested until users are interested. Etc. Where will that spark to ignite the pilot light come from? I saw a person with a Blackberry yesterday for the first time in years and didn't know whether to laugh or be sad. I then noticed a suggested app in mt WP10 store was to show me the new WP7 and I kept my mouth shut. Still hoping!!!
  • Whatever flagship is it gonna be, just as long as they put in a hifi sound chip, then I'll go for it!
  • Sometimes it feels that bad. Idk if its just general internet culture, but things have gotten so bad around here. "omg!!!! Windows 10 only has 80 million in a month?!?! #FLOPPPPP"
  • Windows 10 = 80 million. It's ok for start Jas00555 The problem is Windows Mobile 10. I think is not good and Dead. :( Shame Microsoft.
     
  • Maybe he was being sarcastic.
    But have you tried the Windows Mobile 10 version which is going to be released to the general public..? So I think that your second line isn't valid either bro.
  • I was jokingly playing the part of a typical commenter in the quotations. I find it fascinating that twice in 2 days, I've clearly put something in quotations to mark that I'm not saying something and someone doesn't read them or misses them and things I'm the one saying those words lol
  • I got it, but maybe add a "/s" at the end for the sarcastically inclined... I think people are inherently more apt to be idiots and negative on the intertubes. I love my 1520, I look forwad to replacing it... It think the new phones are feature rich enough, and are more of a matte svelte then nokias original style, but I like it, its clean and fits with the style of windows 10. I love windows 10 on desktop so far, and if any of that can transfer to the mobile platform, we are in for a treat. I don't need windows to be number one to like it, I just need to like it! And I do!
  • Amen.
  • Complete Lol.
  • Yeah sometimes people just don't get it lol
  • 80 million in a month is an overwhelming success, but on every article like that, a lot of commenters declare it a failure. Hell, even the Steam article that showed that 1/5 of all Steam users had already upgraded in a month had people saying that wasn't enough lol.
  • 80 million in a month makes it popular, not a success. They're giving it away. It's easy to get a lot of takers when you spend millions to develop a product and then give it away. The real judge of whether or not it is a success is when people start paying for it.
  • While that is true, Windows 10 itself is part of the Windows Update process that is STILL being rolled out in parts. I had to update a laptop manually just last week because Windows 10 hadn't been pushed out to it yet. Considering the nature of the roll out, I would say it is a very significant number. Especially when you consider the fact that this is nothing like a phone update roll out where the entire OS notifies you when ready and does the update. There are many more variables involved and the updates are much larger. Those things considered, 80 million is substantial. It'll keep growing for a while too. Windows 7 wasn't an overnight "billion device success" either and people had to pay pack then.
  • Other than enterprise, people only pay for Windows when buying or building a PC. I think people will still buy PCs with Windows 10, the only reason not too is if you're just completely opposed to any change. There really are no downsides to 10 versus 7, and very few which are being fixed versus 8. The real win for 10 will be if people get onto the same OS, so MS doesn't have to support 7/XP users, and if people use the store, driving app development.
  • Jeddic: That's true with this version, but it has not been true in the past. Microsoft used to make a lot of money from Windows upgrades. They made a marketing decision to forgo all that income in hopes that the popularity would drive sales of new PCs. I think it was a good decision, but, as I said, we won't know for sure until it happens.
  • Last week my BLU Win Jr, which was a replacement for the last WP I drowned :(, stopped recognizing my SIM. I ordered a 640 to replace it, but while waiting for shipping I used an old Android phone a little. There are some nice features of Android, and the device worked ok. However, just seeing the lag, the inconconsistent designs, and some of the app issues again really made me that much happier when my 640 arrived this morning.
  • I would definitely say no, just the fringe people that's shaking off. I've been around since the days of TPC on XDA.
  • Sticking on WP since 2011 (not that long as others cause am just 18 :P) and will be sticking with the OS..!!
    Nicely written Daniel and you touched almost every point ever raised on Microsoft and even on WC. Kudos..!!
  • I've been using Windows Mobile since WM6, so only about 6-7 years. Cooked roms, made personal apps, owned the superman of phones the HD2, been on XDA for years, etc. Have an Xbox 360 (3 in fact), PC's, laptops, all running Windows. I'm not fringe at all, but I'm definitely one that's considering going completely Microsoft free. Especially with Nadella leading this company.
  • Yup. The long timers on this platform since the WM days have had enough. I miss my cooking days for 6.5/7. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Yeah i miss those days too when XDA-Developers was a Winmob site and the King of phones HD2 that would not die. Ah miss cooking and constant flashes lol
  • For Jonnie Vegas:  I am perfectly happy with my 928.  Works just as good as the iPhone my family members use.
  • I just feel ambivalent.
  • I feel despair. I was watching UK TV tonight. Actors in some of our most televised (and highest viewing numbers) soap operas are holding Lumias. I know they are Lumias, but only cos I know. The logo, the branding, its too plain, its not obvious. If it had a big glittery Apple on it, and was in jewellery colours (rose gold, or "space gray") then people would want it. MS keep their own best products secret. They need more obvious branding and desirability. Lego blue is not desireable. 
  • Was it the white 1020 in Casualty by any chance? :)
  • But less obvious branding is probably why it's there. If there was a huge logo it would have to have been obscured in some way.
  • I've been seeing WP in almost all the TV shows. Many actors are using it on House Of Cards. Sherlock's brother Mycroft uses a Windows Phone but Sherlock himself is an iPhone user:p
  • There were Lumias and Windows tablets all over the place in 'Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation.'
  • I saw the actor Nicholas Hoult in the film Dark Places (with Charlize Theron) holding the Lumia 920 while searching on google. That made me shiver! Very proud Lumia 920 user!
  • I saw will smith with 1020 in focus.. But it's running on amber...lol
  • Yes Lumia had some good exposure in that movie. But the Amber comment was so cold.lol Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • We can thank Nokia's PR department for all of that exposure. Microsoft are useless by comparison.
  • Courier - ah I remember that... it was kinda cool!
  • Oooo - and Kin too l, although that was destined for failure IMO
  • Nicely said
  • I just wish Microsoft would make a cool as design for a smartphone like they did for a tablet/laptop, throw a x86 chip in there and see what happens.
  • And that is the rumored metal Intel phone not due until May of next year. Just part of the kick the can down the road thing. I wish hardware development went faster, trust me, but it's just more of the 'coming soon!' biz we're in right now.
  • I have to ask, do you think if they didn't cancel Mclaren things be at least a little bit better now? I know that's tough to answer and that 1 single flagship phone wouldn't solve every problem.  On a side note I'm just hoping that the new phones are priced similarly to the new Motorola phones and can be bought in the Microsoft stores.
  • Yeah, if they could have stripped the 3D thing, sure. McLaren looked awesome at least.
  • Daniel can you at least convince someone at Microsoft to come and read some of these heart felt comments here on your site??? I know they say that do, but I'm starting to think otherwise and believe they really don't care.
  • Microsoft engineers are reading and engaging in the forums, I'm sure some read the comments as well...
  • There is a lot of sour passion here; I don't think that it is healthy for them to read these comments. I don't even know how Gabe Aul manage to stay sane on twitter with all those hateful comments. There are people tweeting him about eternal hate to Microsoft because they experience in the Mobile preview and he manages to answer them politely; as I think Daniel said once, the man is a saint.
  • Exactly... I mean I never always get these guys. Bitching about preview build. Thats fu*king sad. I am one of those guys who never go for preview builds and always for completed piece. I patiently waited for Windows 10 desktop edition and in the end I got some good piece of Os with no problems. I am waiting for Phone now and I have no complaints. But these people bitching about preview build is very sick IMO
  • They bitch because they care... if they won't.... these Meh apps/platform will become the final version and then end Customer will say that its garbage.... Because if the Evangelist/fanboys think its Meh... general public will think of it as bad...
  • Bitching is stupidity. You have forums. You can vote which feature you want at microsoft site. But bitching about it in twitter and facebook is just stupidity
  • If they cared, they would offer insightful, constructive critizism in a positive way instead of bitching. There are ways to do that without being a total rude dude. I constantly provide critical feedback to Microsoft to help them fix things or make things better without bitching. What I don't do is come on the forums to moan about it because the forums can't do anything about it.   
  • Exactly. Can't say it better. Everyone just pouring out the hate. I am not a Microsoft fanboy. I will never be one. But the thing is I am happy with the product. I am patient enough to wait for the release than going for Beta program and B!tch about it. If one can't understand what beta program is there is no need to go for it when you have a wonderful os in wp8.1
  • And do you know how many people have offered feedback about the People tile and it is still terrible? I feel like some things Microsoft will not change no matter how much we offer feedback to make it better. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • You can b!tch about it after the final product. But I doubt it is the most upvoted feature(What you are asking). Obviously they are bringing the most upvoted features first.
  • And what are those upvoted features? Why not fix the hills along with the mountains? It is a very small and presumably easy thing to fix since it was already great before they changed it and presumably have the code available. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • What are those features??? Got to uservoice and see for yourself the things people want in Windows phone and the things people doesn't want in windows phone. Go upvote the things you want the most. And stop bitching about in social media. Those developers at microsoft have their own prioritization. And the way you are complaining about a product at beta stage is just pathetic.(I mean I am not saying you shouldn't complain. Of course you can complain about things if you don't like them. But do it in a proper way or just wait for the final release of the product). The things you are complaining I would accept that critcism if you did it about the final product. But for now when it is in Beta stage stop bitching in social media and go to windows phone uservoice
  • I thought a flagship windows phone would have a premium feel... Like an Aston Martin car interior.. or have a richness like this new British Airways 1st class interior:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3226431/This-2-500...        
  • I have no idea what you are talking about. I was just saying about people b!tching a beta OS in social media. And yes I do want my phone to be premium. But I find your reply totally irrelevant.
  • I think enough suggestions are offered positively and negatively Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Just last week at IFA some one from Microsoft told Mark and I they read the site every day. That's both awesome and humbling for us to hear face to face. We don't need to 'tell' anyone. They're already here.
  • Heck yeah that's what I've been saying. They already had flagship worthy hardware just change the display tech. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • One year after McLaren would have launched, Apple launches the "3D Touch" iphone and the Ipad pro with 12" screen and keyboard cover. These are interesting times.
  • As late as May? Would that by any chance be enough time for intel to launch the next generation Atoms?
  • It's supposed to be the latest Skylake processors, from what I understand.
  • Is the 925 a nice upgrade from the 920? I am planning to get a preowned 925 because of the yellowish tint of the 920 screen.
  • The 930 isn't a massive leap from 920 (I've owned both). I'd wait if I were you.
  • Well I still love mine, its nice. I must say that you better get it for a good price these days. I would say its a good upgrade. Looks better for sure. Also seems fast enough for me.
  • Get a 930/1520 instead. The screen, battery life, voice quality, camera and pretty much everything else make either phone a worthy upgrade. I have both in my household and they are excellent phones that can be had for cheap because they aren't made anymore and are approaching their end of life. The 930 was available for less than $300 on eBay a while ago. That's an absolute steal for a phone like that. Would highly recommend.
  • I can't take rumors I need hardcore factual information so until this 1520 dies I will use it and I have a year of Microsoft Complete warranty left so this dinosaur will get used hard and heavy until then
  • I'm waiting patiently using my iPhone 6 and a blue 640 for kicks. I see the vision of windows 10 mobile and I really like it. So I'll be here waiting. It's just a matter of time.  At the rate that people purchase new phones and devices there will always be room for the "next big thing" and I'm betting it's a phone that doubles as a laptop aka continuum. 
  • Yeah. Its tough. Still, I am starting to feel like the odd man out. Which has actually been my entire life. I am comfortable with it. This just feels like I might be committed to something unviable. I hope I am wrong!!!!! I love the new ecosystem.
  • My sentiments exactly
  • Call me old fashioned here but I stick to devices that serve my needs well and not necessarily ones "I like". First priority should be checking off all your needs here and if Windows is doing then stick with it, if not then move onto something else. It's a free market and a free country, choose the best product for you.
  • Totally agree. My 1520 Does doing everything I need it to and more. IMO w10 Mobile is shaping up nicely. I hope ms sucks it out with a solid vision.
  • Thanks for this Daniel. I'm one who willl be moving to iOS but will still keep tabs on this website and am open to coming back in the future.
  • I am currently using a L1520 on W10 as my daily phone. But there is one thing i need to do, due to it being so secure and uncrackable (i guess), nobody has come up with a way to fake your location for location based apps.. Cough cough Grindr cough... So along side I am using a jailbroken iphone 6 just for that purpose. I have to say i used to have iphones for many years before i switched to a 920, so i am very used to them. However whenever i pick up the iphone to use now i am infuriated at things it just doesnt do, and the utterly retarded way it does some things, such as no back button, so you rely on back buttons in apps, which could be anywhere the developer felt like. Another one is that as its not my main phone it has limited internet, there appears to be no way i have found of telling it your data limit so it stops using it WTF?!. I really hate using the iphone. And jesus, i never realised before how annoying it was just having a red (1) on an app, with no idea what it was for. I for one have now become a massive fan of live tiles!
  • Going back is just a left to right swipe from the left edge of the screen.  It has been an interface guideline since iOS 7 and I can think of only one app on my phone that doesn't comply.  Hope that helps!
  • there's a community?
  • Very deep comment.......
  • LOL
  • Great article
  • Well said and thanks. Its hard not to jump to other phones right now, but the promise of Continuum what keeps me waiting a few more months. Be great when I can get into a massive txt chat with people and use a keyboard, mouse, and bigger screen. I think Continuum is perfect for my dad and in-laws, they dont need a PC, but a phone they can dock into a monitor or TV to do a light Word doc or use Netflix will be awesome.
  • The problem is that continuum at the moment is vaporware. How well it works, is yet to be seen. Anyhow, by the time it gains traction and becomes somewhat popular, someone at Microsoft will come up with a brilliant idea to change the name and confuse consumers even more.
  • not really, it's in windows 10 desktop, if you use a hybrid like SP3 you see it in action. I'm typing now using a bluetooth keyboard and mouse hooked in to a SP3 with 2 additional monitors. I pull the SP3 off the docking station and it's a tablet. If I decrease the SP3 form factor to cell phone size and the functionality I imagine it would work much the same.
  • If Acer is showing it off as well as MS, I say the vaporware should be reality very soon. I am going to reserve judgement until end of October. If Continuum is not real, then I will have to think about my mobile platform. Until then, I am optimistically looking forward to it.
  • No Acer didn't show it off. They simply announced that their device which probably won't be available until who knows when, will support it. They didn't even really provide a working demo besides a phone that we know actually turns on. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • We should send MS a link to all these comments
  • You guys are doing a pretty great job here. Windows Central app is among my top 3 most used app on my phone(according to battery usage). Thumbs up!
  • Actually ALL of it is annoying. Microsoft dropping balls historically, commenters either purely hating the product or feeling that MS is responsible to them for when this OS gets finished. Good articel DR.
  • Took me a while to understand you wrote down his initials and weren't calling him doctor!
  • MS will make it all up to us by launching Talkman and Cityman not in just 5 countries, but worldwide! On top of that they will price it very competitive at 449 Euro! And add a Continuum coupon of 25 Euro to that. #IHopeThisIsNotADream
  • I really hope that they launch worldwide and hopefully not uber expensive. Although, if they plan to lure OEMs to make high end they'll have to launch them uber expensive to let them have a good chance.
  • Well, they've nabbed Acer so far on the continuum side of things, I remain hopeful that other OEMs follow suit.
  • I think they'll indeed sell everywhere through their MS Store (and online) and some retail store, and for a good price. I still think they're trying to do what Google does with Nexus.
  • $599 is a better price. $449 is mid-tier range.
  • They are mid range phones. We will not see a true flagship untill W10M has been released  and stabilzed.
  • Highly doubtful they will launch worldwide.
  • Stop daydreaming!
  • There are still so many apps we don't have and never see a Windows store icon next to Apple and Android for be apps or promotions.
  • This has always annoyed me and this annoyance goes back to the Apple "There's an app for that" commercials. Apple ruined the mobile environment by pushing everything to a damn application. How about a robust and stable web site that handle a small touch screen? Imagine what the developers could do if they only had to focus on a mobile web site instead of an app for iOS and Android? Web standards would have evolved much quicker for the mobile space. Instead, here we sit complaining about developers not supporting 3 app platforms and how many platform versions across all these mobile devices.
  • The real problem is that my wife loves her Windows phone but as a teacher they are always asked to download this app for this or that and she's like,I can't because there is no Windows phone app. And these are common apps throughout the educational system. So for her it's tough. Loves her phone but the apps are just not there. So if she wants something else eventually,I can't blame her. My frustration is that most of the cool apps i want are not on Windows phone but on Android. Again I love the phone but there is so much stuff over there that I wish we had here and Microsoft is making it easier to leave their platform everytime they port another service to IOS and android. Seems like the best of both worlds is somewhere else.
  • I'm gad I don't teach at her school. I teach career technology at a high school and I've never been asked to download an app to my phone. Ever.
  • Your must not teach in California. Every grade, every school, educational seminars, continued education, district meetings... Educational apps are the norm in the profession for the business side of teaching. And there is always an Android and iPhone app.
  • No, I wouldn't consider living in that abominable state if it was the last one in the U.S. It's technology for technology's sake and totally unecessary. The educational system wastes billions on fads that do nothing to improve the quality of education.  
  • But on her personal phone? If the school district wants you to install apps that are job related then they should provide the employee with a phone I would think.
  • Exactly, I am tired of seeing apps only available for Android or Apple.  I currently have a 930 and love it, but I am getting tired of waiting for the next big thing.  I can upgrade my phone soon, I was hoping there would be some new cool windows 10 phone available soon.  But even if there is, apps will still be lacking.  I am thinking about jumping back to android for a little while. Since I work at a place that sells Verizon phones, we get special deals and can upgrade phones every 10 months.  So I was thinking of going back to Android and wait 10 months and see if something new and exiting comes along.  I hate the idea since I really like my windows phone though, and know I won't like going back to Android hell.    
  • My advise is to get an Android. You'll feel better for it. I've always owned a Nokia and a Samsung side by side. So much promise from Windows but they are always behind. And not late on a good iPhone manner but late as in 18 months no flagship. Some of us want only the best (flagships) and if MS isn't giving us that we'll buy it somewhere else.
    It's only a phone after all. A relationship with a corporation not a human. Posted via the WC App for Galaxy S6
  • Apps are just better. Case in point: Amex app vs Amex mobile web.
  • Simply because the websites are neglected in favour of apps!
  • At this moment im just laughing at all the bickering. If uve been with this site for a long time then you just get used to it. Specially when I see my old frustrated self in those comments. Bottom line is, I dont wanna go android, and im a cheapo so no iPhone. So im just here waiting for the new WPhones. I understand what Microsoft is trying to do specially with all their products being available everywhere. BUT having the worse version of those is really just a pain. Isn't it just logical to make the champion product ur own first then share it to others?
  • Actually, many years ago, it was not so negative, and more positive... This negativity has developed over the last few years and progressively gets worse.
  • I remember when the first leaks for the Lumia 920 were coming out (in 2012) and there was a palpable excitement from wpcentral and the forums. It was an exciting time to be a Windows phone fan because we were the underdogs and WP was consistently growing, albeit slowly, from month to month. It's fun to root for the underdog, early on in the game when they shows signs that they might actually win. That was 2012. Now in 2015, we're in the fourth quarter, down by 25 points and we don't even have the ball. This is what it feels like to be a WP fan now. It's so sad.
  • 920 was doing good to get to the big carriers. Nokia failed to get 930 to all major carriers.
  • That's a good analogy. Up until Nokia left, at least on the hardware side of things, we always had something to look forward too. My contract is up and there's nothing truly exciting out right now and 2 so-so phones with recycled designs to look forward to. That plus missing or never-updated apps gets old after all these years. I remember when WP7 launched and Microsoft campus held a mock funeral for iPhone, Android, and BlackBerry. They were so passionate in those days. At least they leaped Blackberry
  • I agree with your comment. It makes sense to have all their apps and services on all platforms. I think what feels like a below the belt hit is that some of these apps are better on other platforms than WP. Nadella has said the best experience of MS services will be on windows devices, lets hope they deliver this with WM10. Also we have been waiting so long for flagships what they deliver needs to be compelling to make us feel it was worth the wait. Exciting times but it feels that there is more riding on this release than ever.
  • Well, I won't use apple. I can't stand android. But I see no reason to abandon my 920. That's right, I am sporting a 3 year old phone with no plan to upgrade.
  • I'm sporting a 920 and begging for a worthy upgrade. This poor thing has been put through hell! I just hope MS delivers this fall.
  • I'm in exactly the same boat.  I've had a 920 since the begining and really wanted a 1020 but decided to wait for it's successor.  Still isn't here, probably never will be.  Will need to see what kind of hardware comes out at launch for WM10.  My hopes beyond hopes is that Microsoft is going to pull another Microsoft Band out of their butts next month and show off an intel based phablet that can run Win32 programs.  I went to the Windows 10 release party at the microsoft store in town and had a couple of conversations with other developers.  3 of them were carrying around Dell Venue Pro 8's like what I have at home.  I have just the basic model and didn't have enough drive space to upgrade to W10 and so I asked them what they planned on doing.  I found out that all three of these people actually used their 8" atom based tablets to write code.  It shocked the hell out of me.  I use an insanely beefy machine at work but ever since that event, I've been thinking about it.  I've been writing software for 27 years now.  That little atom processor runs about the same as my desktop from 9 years ago.  Most of the code bases I'm still maintaining are 9+ years old.  There's very little reason I couldn't do my job with something like that.  Comparing the CPU specs between my tablet and the ZenPhone 6 makes me think there's no real problem here.  I've got some dream that the first intel W10 phablet would be X5-Z8500 based(even though I'm pretty sure it's going to be a X3 from looking at all of Intels pages).  Using an X5 puts me at my desktop about 6 years ago..only it'd be on my hip, have Pro WiDi, and be able to run a 4K external display.
  • Compiling VS solutions on my i7/SSD based PC is considerably snappier than my HP Spectre Ultrabook also using a mobile i7 and SSD. I tried the ultrabook for a while, but quickly return to my beast and 27" screen
  • I am assuming you live in the U.S.? It is too bad you guys never got the 930, it is a great update to the 920 - especially the camera.
  • I don't accept anything that comes from people's butt.
  • They will not
  • I used to have a 920.. until last week when it was stolen. Now I'm trying to survive on an iPhone until the new MS phones arrive. :/
  • I think I have a spare 920 sitting in a drawer somewhere... Or I might have given it away already. Which would be the second 920 I gave away...
  • I feel your pain!  Just lost my 1020 in a river last week :-(  Totally gutted :-(  Using an old 920 instead now, with W10 preview but it's a bit slow.  Very tempted to get a used 930 with the much faster processor and bigger screen.  Even if they announce the 950's next month, it could be some time until they are really available and at a sensible price.  And maybe the surface phone next year will be the one with the real pureview camera I want so much! Bored with jerk-o-vision-still-can't-smooth-scroll Android and just don't want anything by Apple. Ever. Ok, if they make a sugar cube sized iphone with floating holographic screen then maybe...But probably still no.
  • I can thank the heft on my 2½yr old 920 for putting muscles on my arm!! Saved me some gym fees !!!
  • I had a 920! It was great, now I'm rocking this Icon. I think what troubles me personally, is that we hear about something months in advance. When the rumors hit, they sound good. Then while 7 months go by, Android and iPhone release a better version while we wait. That being said, my Icon still has better specs than the iPhone 6s plus. Now where are the apps? We have been asking Microsoft (who we love) since Zune for a rich app environment. IMO the Zune was a better device than the iPod. Rather than build the environment then which would have led to use by Windows phone, they threw the whole device away. I let iPod owners borrow my Zune and they didn't want to give it back. They loved it. My hope now is that Microsoft will follow through with their current streamlining plan and get things to market efficiently and get us the apps we have been asking for over the course of eight years now.
  • I'm also waiting for something as pretty as my 920. My wife too. One of the benefits to WP has been that this is the first phone from which I haven't needed to upgrade. Not only because it's so capable, but because WP is so slick, smooth and efficient it's the first phone that hadn't degraded so much I've needed a new one. Went sim-only, now biding my time till something worthy becomes available. Looking forward to a W10M upgrade, too.
  • Yep, those phones really last a long time.
  • Me too!
  • I'd still be using my 920 if it weren't for a terrible fall it took and two replacement screens not being oem as described online and some glitch with them only working for a little while, then going black till the battery dies. An $80 640 has served as an acceptable replacement until a new flagship. Sidenote, anyone want to buy a 920 with a non-oem screen with a spare non-oem screen and a spare battery?
  • The 920 is an amazing phone. I am thinking about getting a next one. My current phone is wonderful, but it's 3 years old and although not terrible, but starting to look a little worn. It really feels good in my hands and the camera still stacks well against today's newest phones.
  • I find it sad to be such a "fanboy" that you hate the other 2 OS' for no reason at all. iOS and Android both have positives and negatives. Neither of the 2 is "better" than the other, but I can't being so stuborn that I refuse to use a device with USEFUL, PLENTIFUL apps, vs a system that has gone nowhere but down since its release. Even MS doesn't care if you ever get an app.  MS is banking on this core OS thinking that if they make one app, it will run on all MS devices. Why would my bank make an app for Windows 10 desktop OS when you can just use the web browser. MS' logic here is flawed and things will only get worse from here.  I love(d) WP OS. I think its better than iOS and Android both, but I love tech, so I am not going to have some idiotic allegence to MS when other are doing More, and doing it better than MS.  Balmer ruined WP and now it's too late. Buy an iOS device used since you are cheap, or get something like an LTE Moto G and check back with MS in 10 years and see if they've gotten any better, or gave up on mobile completely. MS will give up on phones within the next 2 years.  They will not keep throwing money into a blackhole. 
  • Well said, Daniel. This was a very thoughtful and well written piece. My fear is that in this instant gratification society we live in, it will turn in to a flame war in here. But you summed up a lot of the points that have me excited about Microsoft these days. I hope someone sends this to higher ups at MS and they take note of how their enthusiasts are feeling these days. We are their brand champions after all!
  • Daniel, I have to say that is the most neutral, well-written, calm, professional, and realistic article I have ever read. The bottom line is, your take on the issues at hand is 100% accurate. Cheers Bro...Excellent outlook!
  • This is why I come to this site. The staff actually possess personalities and are passionate about the same platform I am without displaying fanboyism. I make frequent visits to Microsoft's Channel 9 and am familiar with the the One Core Convergence roadmap, MS has gone through a lot of trial and error and wasted work and time as a results. I still have my fingers crossed whether they can pull it off before ppl become frustrated enough to abandon the platform.
  • Agreed !
  • Thank you Daniel. I think you nailed it with the communities expectations about the flagship phones and I think we have to be patient and wait to see the phones for ourselves. I have not lost hope and the more and more I look at the specs of these phones they keep sounding better with smart covers, wireless charging and pen support. Can't wait to actually see them and hold them.
  • Most of the complainers will be right as rain when it goes RTM. If they were that dissatisfied they wouldn't even be coming here anymore.
  • Dan a great article and well said, they are just phones and part of a larger eco system as a one time apple employee and user of their products along with Microsoft I have to say I feel the momentum is starting to gather pace with Microsoft - I was actually pleased to see MS at the keynote - its the correct strategy when it comes to actual usage and familiarity of MS software and will lead to developers coming on board to develop useful apps. Addressing the handset / mobile question I was , again, pleased that my 930 can STILL hold its own and in many ways best the 'new' iphone - the band has been well received and the surface success speaks for itself. This isn't a race that anyone can win, this is a process and tech development is just that - finding out a thousand ways that something doesn't work or resonate with users and establishing what does. Im happy with what my phone does Im interested in what's next - but you know what? Its time to calm down a little and instead of looking for the next big thing enjoy what you have - take awesome family pics , marvel at live tiles, use Cortana and really useful stuff ( as i found out recently) like maps and translate - go have fun people and when the new stuff comes - it comes :-)
  • Great honest article Daniel. Stick to your style and don't let the haters get to you. As you say, your job isn't easy. Being genuine is really the most important thing... Even when people in the forums take issue with it, the tone used, or any perceived bias. I for one look forward to more of the same from you and less bickering in the forums. Thanks for having the guts to call out those who are happiest when they are the unhappiest and make a point of running others down on trivial matters. In the end, they are just phones, after all. Stay strong. You and all of the Windows Central team are appreciated.
  • Definitely a certain demographic of people who complain all the time and expect to have butler service on this site. Nothing wrong with being critical, but some people are so unrealistic.   Anyway, I agree Daniel - Microsoft's problem is that the answer is always on the horizon. It never arrives, and if something does arrive, it arrives in an incomplete and awful state that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Groove Music, I'm looking at you.   I still think you should try and get an interview done with the folks to make that app and ask them why they have failed so hard for years.
  • This is really good article. Thanks for sharing.
  • Yeah I hear ya man. Definitely hard and slow times to be a windowsphone user. Everyone keeps talking about the app gap but it's not a problem for me as I have all the apps I use an other things can be accessed by browser if you don't like the app.. But idk I would like a successor to the Lumia 1020 which I currently use.. An I see apple has used the dude who used to work for Nokia to now do live photos on iPhone.. Bravo but you weren't first lol
  • I can tell you app gaps is a problem.  You might be able to find the same apps in WP store but they are many versions behind or not get upgraded for year(s). The cool features never land here. Just look at Facebook app, Instgram, and even 500px has pulled the plug. The pace in Phone business is too fast, 3rd ecosystem will not survive. I have been a WP user with 920 for 2 years but I am running out of patience.
  • I actually left Windows Phone this year after all of the banks pulling their apps and my 1020 stopped working. I was EXTREMELY patient in waiting for a new flagship 5 months ago to replace my 1020 (that still isn't here!). I switched to Android, and my phone just does everything I need it to do. It's kind of refreshing not worrying about my OS/Phone lacking in some way. I'm happy with my choice, but I do miss Windows Phone Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • My bank refuses to make a WP app. I have several accounts with them and their services are great so I'm not switching. But I'd love to be able to take a pic of a check and use the app to deposit it instead of having to go to the post office & mail it in like it's 2010. Stuff like that gets annoying. I'm going to hold on to my 1020 until I can't or something good comes along, otherwise I'll have to switch.
  • I see apps being updated that havnt been updated in months,,,big company anouncing new apps for W10mobile,,,more universal apps being added,,,.Apple outright copying Microsoft,,,new handsets from OEM partners,,,,,80 million W10 users in a moths time. To me it looks like Microsoft is building momentum. Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
  • Instead of continuum, they should call it Microsoft momentum
  • Time for an upgrade from my 1020, do I go for new 2015 'Flagship' or wait. I can only upgrade ever two years. Or go for a iphone 6s or Samsung? Oh the dilemma
  • Get a Lumia 640 to tide you over. Problem solved.
  • In the same boat
  • I have both iphone 6 and S6 Edge. Both are pretty awesome. iOS does some things better than android, and vise-versa.  If you go samsung, go Note 5. so fast. so good. or get the new iphone. either is a good choice. you can always keep your 1020 around as a back up / keep up with Windows OS phone.  The advantage to chosing iOS is apple makes all their software (other than safari) for windows. iCloud etc.  Samsung requires you use a gmail acct. iOS will let you use your outlook.com, msn.com, live.com as you apple ID. 
  • I dunno I'm not even convinced there will be a flagship of windows phone on verizon not to mention the icons wifi doesnt really work unless you are next to it, and windows 10 on the PC is really glitchy so at the moment it's hard to be enthusiastic about any of it
  • On of the bigger issues is probably China and India. A market full of first buyers which they cannot afford to lose. Including the Chinese flagship buyers. That's several hundred million people using your platform for at least 2 years. They need to be kept happy too. Great and interesting article. I might be wrong, but I think WC shouldn't forget about 2nd and 3rd world countries.
  • It doesn't matter what the hardware or software is like. Microsoft just needs to put the phone in the hands of the Taylor Swift's and the Kim Kardashian's and the Justin Bieber's of this world. Sadly, the world (to most Americans) revolves around those people. If there was a WP commercial with Taylor Swift holding the phone, you'd definitely see sales soar.
  • Get Stephen Fry and Rush Limbaugh on board while you are at it.
  • Excellent post! Well said! =D I agree... Just looking back at Microsoft history (my experience, not a rule, but maybe it is) I have had friends who loved MS for a time, things got rough, they bailed out, then MS hits their stride and comes so far and they missed it. They werent along to see the cool things. And then in a year or two they are like, "Wow, Microsoft did that?" If they would have just stayed in the hard times they would see the good times and enjoy the ride. I think we are coming to a point like that. Many will want out or give up but Windows 10 and Universal apps seems to be cool! And their cloud services are getting better and better. Sure, there is a lot that seems wrong but there are a lot of good things coming too. A lot of mistakes being made right. Its exciting times to be a Microsoft fan! =) Even if you arent a MS fan, sit back and enjoy what they are doing because its all very interesting.
  • The glass is half full. Just wait and See a bright future For Windows 10 mobile
  • I agree with you Daniel. I do find myself short on patience because I was an early adopter of the Nokia 920 and have been eager to see a replacement for it. I think we all have images in our head in how we think the flagship phones should look (I for one wanted a metal chassis phone with no camera bump) and my response to the new phones has not been very positive. All the stats for the phones are nice and maybe once I see them in person maybe I will be different. I have been waiting for a little less than a year so I could wait longer if not impressed as my 920 is still going strong :)
  • People are getting spoiled by all the insider-programs. Microsoft should shut down all insider-programs and the get the community back in order. Make us appreciate what they are letting us in on.
  • Once again Daniel is telling us how to act and wagging his finger. Oh, and "Combined with weird tangents like Courier, Kin, Zune and Windows RT..."  Zune was weird?!?  I don't want to read that I took that out of context, because I didn't.  Much of what made Windows Phone so great came from Zune.  There was a time when you thought it was great too, Windows Phone that is, but to stay in Microsoft's good graces, you always say that the stuff they are doing in the present is good.  Half glass full kind of guy... more like full glass of kool aid suck up.  Whatever man. 
  • For Micrsoft, as a company, Zune was a weird tangent. Just like on the mobile OS side, they were super late to the party. iPod was killing it when Zune was releasing devices that seemed strange from a company that historically focuses on Enterprise and Productivity Software. And strangely, they left the Xbox branding behind (being their primary media/entertainment brand) and creating yet another brand. Zune ended up becoming the Windows Phone test bed with the Zune HD but it was a device that, essentially, didn't need to be released. They could have tested the Zune in-house and still got Windows Phone where it is today. It wasn't like Zune was some massive hit that forced MS to utilize its OS and GUI. I'm sure it was the plan all along and Zune was the product that landed in your hands first.
  • Hmm, I agree with some of this, but the Zune tangent was not weird.  It was a growing pain, something Microsoft needed to experience.  To cite the tired old phrase, whatever doesn't kill them, only makes them stronger.
  • It is surprising that so many people don't know that Zune is just tune with a Z. Anyway, ms has made many commercial consumer missteps but keep on chugging. So I'm not too worried, just annoyed that now being different it's costing me some usability.
  • Soon the way it is now, Kinect will be a weird tangent.
  • While I sometimes feel like Daniel can be a tad superioristic, I don't feel like he was at all in this article. I think it was one of the most fair assessments he has made regarding or ecosystem in a long time. That being said, I don't feel like Zune was weird, in fact that's largely what got me into Microsoft stuff, but in this case I think he was merely pointing out that others thought it was weird, or that it was seen as weird by the larger communities.
  • Reads Daniel's article and then reads this comment and laughs at the irony
  • Give the guy a break. It's not easy writing puff pieces trying to explain the actions of a clueless and incompetent company.
  • IMO, it isn't imploding, and IMO Microsoft are ahead of some of the competition, whilst rapidly catching up in areas where they aren't. Integrating Skype into Messaging is a great indication of things to come. When something improves on the desktop for the likes of Outlook then it'll improve on the phone; happy biproduct of a great OS.
  • Microsoft is way behind the competition but Microsoft has the momentum. I hope they don't mess up and lose steam and does another reset.
  • But no one uses Skype and once windows 10 mobile hits,, what will make a developer say hey let me make an app for the 736 Windows 10 mobile users? it just doesn't make sense
  • With all due respect, I think this community is comprised of a bunch of whiny bitches.
    Good night.
  • I think that extends to the entire Internet Community, man...
  • That's most of the world.
  • Yes, indeed.
  • Complaining or what you call whiners are human nature. Even animals complain. But a smart company should should learn what positive feedback they can get from complaints.
  • Pretty much.
  • I'm only crabbing because its seems I been hearing this same tune for years! It has been better but just not at the pace of IOS and android. I'm missing crucial apps for my work, one phone at att to offer me for upgrade now. Sure soon well see two more but when? No one knows. That's what has me disliking ms suddenly and no its not the os it self but the quality of the apps vs competition's same app. Every Tim there's an app advertised some when you can almost bet there isn't one for WP. I work with a couple of game developers for IOS and android and neither one is interested in building apps for WP. I can't blame them either anymore but at first i did. The phone leaks look good but that's all they do is look good from the pics ........doesn't help me none . Apple will have a new phone in 2 weeks . Or note 5 on shelves now. Win10 phones? "Crickets" but I do think you guys do awesome work! Is there an wincentral app on IOS?
  • Daniel, very good post , this is an article of a must read to any Microsoft user (There are about 1.5 billion users out there which use Microsoft products) and is a shame they have lost faith in Windows Mobile.  I personally think Project Astoria and iOS apps on WIndows Phone should be Microsoft's top priorities over Universal Apps and even Cityman and Talkman.  If these phones get launched without support for latest apps of big developers (Uber, Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, Whatsapp, etc, etc) they will not have the expected success.  At this point in time, Windows Mobile future its all about the software. 
      To give some light ahead of the dark tunnel, Xbox One looked like a half-baked product when it was launched in 2013, but today it is miles ahead of Playstation 4, here is why: 1) It can emulate Xbox 360 games, something PS4 engineers said it was impossible 2) It can stream games to Windows 10 PC's 3) It will soon support to play streamd PC games, it also now supports Miracast.  4) In the future I'm sure Microsoft will allow UHD movie downloading and playing at 60hz on compatible UHD monitors/TVs  5) And many, many more features will come to this console. The same thought we should have for Windows Mobile.  Just my 2 cents.
  • I get your points about the Xbox One, however, let me just tell you: "It can emulate Xbox 360 games, something PS4 engineers said it was impossible"   That's just an excuse though. They're more than happy to SELL you PS2 and PS3 games through PlayStation Now. Microsoft's backward compatibilities doesn't work that differently from it since all the backward compatible games will have to be downloaded from the store (you won't be playing them from the disc directly as far as I know). The difference is Sony wants to charge you again and Microsoft won't. It's a good advantage point though and if the Xbox One starts to pick up steam because of it, I am sure Sony will quickly "miraculously" engineer "backwards compatibility" into the PS4.   "2) It can stream games to Windows 10 PC's" The PS4 can stream games to an Xperia phone or tablet.   All the rest you're absolutely right. Except for the hope to extend this to Windows Phone. Mainly because the Xbox has a lot more users than WP. Which obviously justifies more investment from Microsoft.
  • That's incorrect, you just pop your 360 game disc in and you're ready to play. Mass Effect and Borderlands are two games I've tested and can confirm work this way.
  • And you didn't have to install anything from the Store? Because what you say doesn't really match what Microsoft was saying when they presented it. As they announced it and I understood it, you would pop your disc in, it would read it and download you a version of the game into the 360 emulator.   I'm not placing my hands on the fire over this though. I've always used PlayStations and the Xbox One is the only Xbox I ever bought so I can't test that out. At any rate, it's not like Sony can't make "backwards compatibility" happen on the PS4. They just don't want to do it when they can have a service and charge you for it :P
  • I can confirm that you must download the game after you put the disc in. I also must say it works flawlessly. Borderlands (original) is what i have played on the one, and it's as if I'm on the 360. I wouldn't know the difference.
  • It's possible that Sony can't make bc happen, PS3 was a very different machine from the 360.
  • Xbox doesn't have significantly more users than WP (if you look for quarter sales, WP sells more). Clearly Microsoft is earning way more per user so your statement may make some sense, but strictly speaking it is false.
  • You're focusing only on the Xbox One. Xbox goes beyond Xbox One. 
  • Windows Phone has more devices sold per quater. Whatever they are selling.
  • It is funny, but neither Android neither iOS porting will give any meaningful results, though from different reasons. Android porting will work on Windows Phone only, and that is something like possible 5% additional revenue for Android developer. For that he will have to continually create and upload new versions, manage screenshots and descriptions (add to that for multiple languages) and provide support with some possible unique problems they were not facing before. OK, for some big names it might make sense, but for small teams... just forget it. iOS porting will work for games mostly. The problem is that it will be far from magical for non-gaming apps. It could cut the work to half, but still it is measured in months and thus not too attractive and is hardly to change anyone's mind. For the record, one major publication polled top developers when this tools were announced and got almost consent that they will not use them.
  • How did you come about the 'additional 5% revenue' figure? Based on what statistics or research? It hasn't even been released yet! In any case 5% of 1million = 50k which is not a trivial figure is it?
  • You can find the  market share data even on this site for mobile OSes. I have no idea how do you think it is easy to earn 1 million on the apps (unless you are talking about something else other than $)... If you are talking about downloads, then clearly 50.000 of free downloads are not worth of any work.
  • MS pretend to extend Android Bridge to Desktop, out of Preview. But again: Coming soon.
  • I think this is a back up plan. If they push it now, they will kill UWP, and they are not ready for that at this moment. Not after investing so much in it and not even completely launching it. And the other problem is that Android is not really for keyboard and mouse, then working in scalable windows is pretty much questionable.
  • Per your last paragraph, do you have a link to that poll you mentioned, I believe only fools would not seriously consider porting to an OS that will dominate desktop and laptop space going forward.
  • No, I haven't bookmarked it I am talking from my memory. Maybe I can find it with search. The conclusion was that those developers that said they will support Windows already have Windows apps. Anyway, it is questioniable how much any desktop OS can generate of Store revenues. There were some figures from Mac Store top app which was fascinating low. I can tell you that on desktop Windows probably only top 10 paid apps (not games) earn more than 1000$ a month. My app was sometimes in top 10 (but not for whole the month) so I can make some estimates. It will probably double or triple in a year, but it is still not something that can attract anyone but indie developers from low income countries. On iOS top 10 apps earn that much a day.
  • If they make sure Windows 10 mobile is a bit more polished in terms of icons and stability I'll be very happy.
  • "Coming soon" - Windows 10 Mobile (prev Windows Phone)
  • Well said Daniel, it actually made me think lol, cheers
  • On the other hand I can't help but to feel some sympathy towards Windows Phone users. I remember, back when Nokia was on board that Titanic and I used WP as a daily driver, how angry and frustrated Microsoft and their total lack of commitment to the platform made me feel. The attack on Nokia's D&S division was the apotheosis of that. Then, as they say, Karma is a b*tch. When Nokia left I immediately jumped to Android and I couldn't be happier (well, apart from Google's very poor esthetic choices when it comes to Material Design but that I can actually solve more easily than I could anything on WP). I kept using all of Microsoft's services, all of their other OSs and my Windows ecosystem not only remained intact, it became stronger when an Android phone replaced my old WPs. Not only that, Nokia's back with their return publicly announced (I knew it back then and I said it often...no one believe me. Oh well. No one believed Churchill at first either. Yes. I just compared myself to Churchill.) and the demise of Microsoft's mobile division is actually coming soon™. And now I just sit idly and joyfully watching this dead Windows Phone (oh, sorry, "endlessly nascent" ;P) sink into the sea. Maybe somethings will be able to survive on lifeboats. Maybe not. I really don't care. Microsoft will most certainly not die when WP is canned for good and I'm sure they'll still find ways to make their software great on other platforms (like they did on the iSurface not-really-Pro).
  • In Android you still need to use GooglePlay services and have a Google account to download apps, with Project Astoria and iOS Apps support in Q1 2016 Windows Mobile users will have your latest apps (APK or iOS) running on our devices without having to give Google our personal info.  I may be wrong but you might want to come back to Windows Mobile after all, when this is complete. 
  • (I'm numbering this just to organise ideas) 1 - That's all I use my Gmail account for though. Of course you should need a Google account to access the Google Play Services. Just like you need a Microsoft account to access the Windows Store. Besides, I don't have anything against Google, on the contrary. I don't use their services simply because I like Microsoft's better. Apart from the browser. There it's Chrome all the way, sorry.   2 - Project Astoria will NOT automatically import Android apps into Windows Phone. Developers will need to WANT to put their apps on Windows Phone for them to come. Microsoft can't pick them up and put them through Astoria as that's illegal. And even though the Universal apps concept is promissing, I still don't believe it will succeed as I don't believe the Windows Store on Windows 10 will have much of a point. Most people will still buy their programs on physical discs, through developer websites or other engines like Steam and uPlay. Furthermore, the apps one uses on mobile phones aren't designed with desktop use in mind and therefore will not likely be ported. So I wouldn't hold my breath for the likes of Instagram, SnapChat, Tinder etc to make their way into the Windows Store just because of Project Astoria.   3 - No, I'm perfectly happy on Android, thanks ;) Besides, from what I've been experiencing of Windows Phone 10 (yeah, I'll keep calling it that) on the Nokia 830 that I have exclusively dedicated to it, I don't think I want to return to an OS that is actually getting WORSE instead of better (the gesture interface is all over the place, the new apps are downright horrible with Photos ahead of the pack, the design is also terribly boring etc...and the tiles. The god damn tiles are still there.). The only way I will ever buy another Windows "mobile" device is when what I call the "Surface Phone" comes. And that means a phone that actually runs an Intel core and runs full Windows 10 (and not Windows Phone 10 or "Windows 10 Mobile" or whatever you want to call it) including desktop apps. THEN I might be interested. And even then we'll have to see. But I don't see myself leaving Android anytime soon. And most definitely not once Nokia returns ;)
  • You do realize that Nokia won't be building any phones, so it's not back to the old Nokia? They'll just have a design and look for someone that wants to manufacture it. I have a feeling it won't last long because Nokias board won't stand for it. Nokia as a phone company is dead, whether they realize it or not.
  • Nokia designs the phone. Nokia designs the software. Nokia puts in their tech (because they kept all the patents). Nokia oversees the quality in production and distribution. As far as I'm concerned, that makes it pretty much a Nokia phone. As much as an iPhone is an Apple phone, or an Xperia a Sony phone...or even a Microsoft Lumia a Microsoft Phone (seeing as they will also be resourcing to Foxconn to build it).
    Because, in case you're not aware, before the deal, Nokia wasn't building all the phones already. They had the likes of Compal building them for them. And the "Nokia Care" Centres also worked on a franshise model. So there's very little difference. The only differences will be that Nokia isn't manufacturing the phones (which, then again, seldom phone makers do these days anyway) and won't be in charge of the sale and distribution. So, no. Nokia isn't dead as a phone company. They might be dead as a phone *manufacturer*. Not as a phone maker. And actually, they stand a better chance at succeeding on Android than Microsoft of making Windows Phone happen. But of course, the fanboys around here will NEVER admit that. Just like they didn't admit that the D&S deal was a bad idea back then. Again, I don't really care. History has made the job of giving me reason in the end already and will likely keep doing it ;)
  • You need to get a life bro. Or become a vegetable and stop posting on the internet until the orderlies throw you out into the streets.
  • Did this idiot actually compare himself to Churchill? I can't. Lmao
  • Shut up, Micah. You don't even know what that reference I made meant. And if you know who Churchill was it will already be an accomplishment given how bad the American Educational System is - he says on top of his European horse ;P
  • Wow. I never comment on little comment feuds...but you're a bit over the top DJCBS, no? How about taking it down a few notches and stop trolling a Windows Website?
  • I'm sorry, but you are probably the worst type of person in internet forums. It would be totally cool if you stuck to just saying you don't like WP and never have, you only like Nokia hardware and as soon as that ended, you ran as fast as you could away. That's fine, everyone has different tastes. But no, you don't stop there, you move into the complete jerk category, rubbing it in the face of other people. Talking about how happy you will be when WP goes away, like a giddy child. You offer nothing to constructive conversations, just try to insult. Its a phone OS buddy, not some kind of personal war or vendetta, as if MS so harmed you that you are invested in its failure. You aren't exactly alone here though. You just tend to be more overt about your intentions for hanging around at all. MS has zero chance with people that feel the same because nothing MS does will get much credit and lets face it, they never really liked MS in the first place. I just wish people would refrain from gloating. As far as the 'topic', I'm starting to care less and less about the internet community in general. I have noticed a serious split between consumers in the real world and those posting to sites like this. I've noticed this when it comes to Apple, Google, and even MS. What I hear and see out 'there' regarding Windows on phones has been on the way up, not down. More people know MS is making phones at all then in the past. People have more chances to actually touch and learn about WP instead of just 'hearing' about them. I have no idea what Windows 10 mobile will do for the success of the platform, but right now it seems like an IMPROVING situation, not one that is in decline. At least two flagship phones, a new OS, new features like continuum, new development opportunities thanks to the 'bridge' projects, new oem participation, etc, etc. MS has made a clear statement about how they plan to support the platform going forward (3-6 phones each year covering entry, business, and high end) and they are more connected to the users thanks to the insider programs. Of course there are issues to fix, but there are always issues to fix, the difference now is that MS is doing better in other ways that seems to be an improvement.
  • "It would be totally cool if you stuck to just saying you don't like WP and never have" No, it would not. I don't think just saying you don't like stuff is constructive at all. I hate Apple products. You don't see me on iMore saying that over and over. Why? Because it would be pointless. I don't like Apple products, I don't use Apple products and therefore I would have very little to add that wouldn't be "Windows is better" or "Android is better". On the other hand, I pretty much live in a Microsoft ecosystem. I USE Microsoft products. Which is why when a product of theirs deserved my criticism, I criticise. And when I think one of Microsoft's products should just die, I also say it.   "You offer nothing to constructive conversations" I spent 3 years doing that. If you don't mind, I'm kinda fed up now. Those of us who have been here for a while have gone over and over and over what paths we would like WP to take, what we felt was missing etc etc. If Microsoft had used this comments to guide their strategy 3 years ago, WP probably wouldn't be in the bad shape it now is. But people get tired of being defrauded.    "some kind of personal war or vendetta, as if MS so harmed you that you are invested in its failure." You again confuse Microsoft with Windows Phone. Microsoft, as Daniel said in the article, is much bigger than Windows Phone. The only thing that yes, I have happily watching dying is Windows Phone. I always said I would enjoy to watch it after the attack on Nokia's D&S. When that happened I said this would end badly for Microsoft's mobile intentions and some people would have me burned on a stake for it. Of course I now feel "avenged" by History. If Windows Phone hadn't dragged a company I deeply "love" - Nokia - into the abyss, I wouldn't care for its faith. Just like I don't much care for the fate of Blackberry for example. Just don't confuse wanting to see WP buried with wanting to see Microsoft buried. And for that I report you to the last paragraph of my original comment.
  • Correct! Microsoft mobile division simply killed Nokia and all their good stuff, while producing this joke windows phone 10 and their latest so called flagships...all together with ditching Nokia's R&D guys.
  • You're probably one of the smart ppl who understands MS roadmap and has a clue how hard and expensive it must me to get this all together. Daniel explained it perfectly but the haters and impatient children will not be appeased. So as you said I believe im about to stop wasting precious time looking though these discussions.
  • Quality of windows since 10 has gotten worse! both PC and even worse mobile...sorry but it's the truth
  • Glad you guys aired this out. People are so dismissive of almost everything anymore and I can't comprehend how our (Internet) culture got this way. It's either a GRAND SLAM or the WORST thing ever. It all seems so polarized. My little advice to the editors is: It's like this everywhere on the web, man. I'm sure you guys know this but other big tech blogs have disabled/depreciated use of article comments for a lot of the same reasons that I'm sure you guys are bummed out. Like Dan says, "it can only get better."
  • the reason I might be sticking with windows phone is continuum. I am in IT by trade and only needing my phone and an adapter to do remote support is too tempting to pass up. I also hope the camera has been updated. Not a single story has stated it has. some even suggested its the same one in the 1520 and 930.
  • Thanks, Daniel. I have definitely noticed the intensely negative tone on a few articles' comment sections here in the last few days. Being a software developer for a living, I feel that I have a slightly different perspective and am cutting Microsoft a lot more slack than many others because of my first-hand experience on large dev projects. But at the same time, I can sympathize as I was also burned by the "upgrade" from WP7 and WP8 and my Lumia 1520 is "ancient" in terms of technology. I remain cautiously optimistic, and look forward to the release of W10M in the next few months--whenever it is declared as ready for the masses.
  • I get the big picture around Windows 10 and as a developer, I even understand how software is built. Windows 10 has massive potential as a platform. I believe we cannot even remotely imagine what could be possible with the simple fact that one OS can run on pretty much everything that has a CPU. I totally get it. But then, there is the consumer side of me. The side that is waiting for a worthy flagship for what seems to be far too long. Will Cityman and Talkman wow me? I really don't know. Based on the renderings I have seen, probably not from a style perspective. But I can push this aside if the OS and the feature set is mind-blowing. So, from a device perspective, I will reserve judgment until I actually see the final product. On the software side of things, I do get quite nervous though. I am using the last preview as a daily driver and while it is overall OK, I come across many things that I would expect to work a lot better, given that the launch is less than two months away. A phone app on a phone should, at this point, be completely functioning and bug free. Well, it isn't. I still hope that we are just way behind on builds and things are already much better. Windows 10 for PC as a service is fine, I get that. I just believe there won't be that wiggle room on the phone side. W10M has to nail it. It's that simple. But, I am hoping and I am waiting. Just hope it really pays off this time around.
    As for the community, there really is no reason to bash you guys. Yes, frustration is big, but that's not your fault.
    Now, I need to shut up before this comment gets longer than the article. :)
  •   It scares me too to see how many bugs there are and the release date it's pretty close.   
  • Waiting a few more months to replace my busted up Lumia 928 is worth the embarrassment I guess. Wish MS realized the sacrifices enthusiasts make to stick through this BS.
  • I for one am really ok with how things progress and was never in a rush to get what I want yesterday. My 830 and 1520 run really ok on 10. I rejuvenated about 13 older pc's @work that run really smooth on 10 (better than when they were first purchased). Guess I am saying, keep it coming MS... Progress is really here in many ways.... Looking forward to what is coming.. And Daniel and team, great job on keeping us informed, thanks a LOT!