Panos Panay says Surface is here for the long run, Microsoft 'hitting stride in big way'

I like USB C but no compelling reason to change from Surface Connect really. I use USB C for just charging only. What I really want is win 10 on ARM. 10 hr of real life working is cool.

There are many neat USB-C docks that are
- way less expensive than the premium price of Surface dock
- more convenient
- also you can use them with other USB-C devices. I would like an ARM based device with USB-C :)

Can USB-C do charging and ethernet at once? If not, the Surface Connect is superior in utility.

Yes: https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Delivery-Macbook-port-Space/dp/B...

Very true. Only thing is Surface has been consistent even after that huge $900m loss. Surface has what WP didn't: sales and a growing user base and a growing, respected platform. WP was dying towards the end and MS was failing at doing much about it even though they lied and said they would. With Surface, there's really no reason to doubt. It's going the best it has. SP6 seems like a great refresh despite lack of USB C, thanks to Intel.

They seem more empowered and confident now!
Also I think the leadership is showing more trust in their teams' design and execution capabilities!
My guess is this is mostly because of consumers embracing the Surface brand. I'm very hopeful now...at least way more than I was 6 months ago when talk of canceling Andromeda was in the news :)

True, but that's not the best example

Lumia was doing the well before nadella took over. Going back to the (licensing fee).

It was doing fine. Could've been saved maybe. But definitely not well. There was a market share inflation due to cheap phones that was eventually gonna and did bite them in the rear end later as WP8.1 (a bad quality update in itself) and W10M didn't run smoothly or well enough. If Microsoft allocated more resources and time to WP (it was on the back burner in favor of Windows), it could've been a decent third option still. I remember how crazily Nokia was developing apps on top of it with whatever they had. No reason Microsoft couldn't use that enthusiasm to develop the platform itself further.

As a programmer. I actually tried code for Win10 and WP10. Different API is a chore.
Win10 phone, is not really a Windows10. It's a 4th OS after Win10 PC, iOS and Android. If it runs the very same UWP and XPA we run on PC today, it might still have a chance.
No one's gonna code & QA 4 times.
Started with 0 user, 0 dev and late to the game. Nothing can help it.

From the article above, the "if they don't build them, WE WILL" seems to be exactly what they are doing, no?

Actually no, the biggest lay off happened after the Nokia d and s acquisition happened - simply put the entire mobile division got layed off. As a result the Lumia 950 and 950 XL launched with crazy amount of bugs. All momentum that lumia had disappeared almost over night. Surface on the other hand is going stronger than ever because of actual investment into that division. I just hope that instance with the SP6 and type-c was just a little blip.

Every Surface sold is a sale taken away from the Dells, HPs, and Lenovos. A high end sale at that. As PC sales drop, how long will they put up with it?

Every surface sold is competition and a model for other companies to copy and/or continue to evolve on which is in the end better for consumers

Well, cellphones sales have reached its top too, and tablet sales are dropping at a faster pace than pc's, so we should ask what are going to do the companies that (in difference to Microsoft) live only from selling tablets and phones.

"Bleached", again, you just make up the worst points and ignore data. PC sales haven't dropped, they've stabalized and even had a positive quarter recently. 2-in-1s and gaming PCs are the biggest growth leaders. Either way the whole point of Surface is to push OEMs to create better, more desirable hardware which is working. See HP. Computing is changing with things going more mobile, always-connected, inking, etc. and Microsoft is pushing that for its partners. You are hands-down the worst, most disingenuous commenter on this site. Really disappointing.

You made my point for me. Surface was designed to show Microsoft's partners how to do it, to act as a reference device. The idea isn't to steal sales. When Microsoft enters the top 5 in PC sales, the risk to the Surface line is angering partners. If Surface is ever shutdown or retrenched, I would bet that will be why. What is disengenious about that? It is kinda obvious actually. To expand, again you unable to look a bit further into it. Unable to have any real insight at all beyond parroting the Microsoft line. Panay can say whatever he wants, but he doesn't make these decisions. Not sure how many manufacturers you have worked for, but engineers don't normally make sales and marketing decisions.

Panos is not an engineer.

Panos Panay is not JUST a engineer, he leads the Hardware division as well. There is a clear distinction to be made here.

Exactly, the hardware division, the engineers. They do not decide what gets sold and prioritized.

And the know it all blithers on and on and on.

I think the whole device ecosystem is in a major transition moving from PC& Mobiles into plethora of devices in various form factors. You assume there is only limited market opportunities and surface line "steals" sales from OEM partners. But, I think Surface could actually create new markets for OEMs to participate in by creating devices in new form factors! Besides they always price the products such that there is always room for OEMs to make competitive products at a decent price. Dude, bleach you mind off the old scarcity mindset, we're in the abundance era :)

Bleached thinks in static terms. If I sell a 2in1 then someone else has lost a sale. That is old line agricultural era thinking. Kings/queens/tyrants fought to control resources (land, rivers, ports, mines etc.). But with the publication of Wealth of Nations and the move to capitalism, people recognize they could provide products that were never dreamt of before. MSFT's Surface line is just one more example of how capitalism provides more opportunities to market competitors. Does anyone really believe PC sales will remain a box on your desk with cords connecting various devices? Of course not. Is the 2in1 the last iteration in computing? Of course not. What MSFT recognized is that by integrating hardware and software design teams together, they can expand opportunities in the Wintel ecosystem. But that ecosystem will require expanded capabilities that Intel and MSFT can not provide individually. But I doubt Bleached gets the difference between competing within a closed ecosystem without competition versus one ecosystem competing against others for an open market. Wintel is competing against iOS/OSX and Android/Chrome. Each ecosystem has strengths and none of them cover all use cases. Here is the question MSFT is trying to answer, "how will computing change peoples lives". You won't answer the question until you try to compete for new markets/customers. Of course, capitalism requires you to deploy resources efficiently. Sometimes you have to admit failure (W10M) and move on. Sometimes you have to recognize success (Surface Pro) and work hard to improve its market performance. That is all Panay is saying--the Wintel ecosystem is stronger because of Surface.

Awesome, sounds great, but where are the new form factors? So far we have laptops and an AIO. They haven't expanded anything. Just set a higher bar for their partners laptops and then started taking the high end of the market.

Have to agree with bleached on this one. Surface has undoubtedly set a higher bar for partners, resulting in lightweight, powerful, premium... laptops. And yes an absolutely gorgeous... albeit extremely expensive... AIO. I think we're all thankful for these. Last time I checked though we were still living in a... mobile... world. So where are the mobile form factors? Heck I'd even settle for an eSim fitted ARM based Go-sized device. But where is that?

Two things are delaying them...
[1] Intel dropped the ball with low power chips so they have to switch to ARM for new form factors- considerable amount of engineering effort is needed for this
[2] Windows Core OS was supposed to be ready by Fall 2018...apparently still not polished enough Hopefully 2019 is the year those issues get resolved! There is going to be a "Cambrian explosion" of new form factor devices in the 2020's because of the emerging tech and the ubiquitous high speed 5G connectivity...there will be more than enough opportunities for the OEMs in a thoughtfully designed open ecosystem :)

Can't believe you didn't mention apps...

@bleached you always express your point of view concisely, don't respond to people's insults and try to logically argue your point of view. I respect you for that.
Now I see that you're open minded to change your opinion if presented with a valid semi-decent argument. Now I respect you even more :)

Are you nutz? He's a troll

The surface device did not exist in any meaningful form until MSFT figured it out. I often use my surface and pen to take meeting notes using inking. That is a decidedly different form factor than a laptop and AIO.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Talking about PC innovation is like talking about land line telephone innovation. Microsoft found a PC lifeline by dumping a few billion into making stylish, high-end laptops. They failed at phone. They want to continue to try to find new life for an old platform, hardware production is a logical step with that mindset. PC market share contraction might have stopped for a quarter, but the overall trend is fairly clear. Phone failed, hololens went no where, Andromeda didn't even make it to production, their other form factors have mediocre sales. The surface pro gave them some relevance for awhile as they try to find the next way to extend the Windows platform.

I disagree with you completely! I'm sure you'd agree PC sales may go down, but need for computing by humans and machines are going to explode with 5G connectivity + iOT and other emerging technologies. WINDOWS
Sure Windows platform needs to transform itself for such a future...it needs to get modular (which they're working on) AND should get at least partially open source to evolve quickly (which they haven't done yet...if they don't do it deliberately they will be eventually forced to do it) AZURE
Apart from Windows, another important component is Azure - back end cloud service - in which they're very competitive If they have a bold strategy for devices they can capitalize on other strengths to be very successful!

besides Nadella has moved $45 mil out of his MSFT stock and is set for life!
he is now better prepared for more risky decisions without worrying about his future :)

When referring to PC's I mean desktop/laptop/2in1. MS has no other actual, successful products outside of that realm in the consumer space (Xbox I know, different topic). If you want to talk about cloud & azure, sure that seems successful so far, it's basically why the company is as valuable as it is. Computing is changing, as just about everything does.

A key point Bleached missed (deliberately?), is Surface sales also, most definitely take way from Apple. That is beyond obvious. And beyond the direct competition also indirectly by making Windows PCs generally cool, or at least less uncool, allowing HP, Dell etc to actually make higher end PCs that people will give a second glance. They were unable to attract that attention on their own because Windows PCs had simply gone to rut at the low end before Surface.

bleached Don't you have a really intricate jigsaw puzzle or something to fuss over?

Hey Daniel.. you should have an upvote and downvote here on this site, like Reddit does. I would upvote this comment

You missed Apple

You think "Sheeple" shop other brands? Any Apple person I know, wouldn't even think about it.

You aren't an Apple person. Having an iPhone or iPad doesn't change that.

Wrong again nitwit. I know many who use Ipads and iphones and wouldn't use a Mac if their life depended on it.

iPhone user and Surface Book owner. I also had choice between Mac and pc at work and I chose s think pad. Annecdotal? Sure. But there are lots of people that are not married to just one ecosystem

People vote (or should) with their wallets. My first buy in this format was a Lenovo Miix 700 because it was significantly cheaper than the SP back then. A crappy product, which turned into a complete waste of money.
A year or so later i managed to buy the real deal, and although it's not perfect i like my SP 2017 very much. If Dell, HP and Lenovo don't want to loose sales to Microsoft they have to improve their offerings - it's as simple as that. By the way, a software maker managing to come up with better hardware than those three already says a lot.

I don't understand how incoherently hating on Microsoft can be turned into a hobby, but you somehow managed to do it.

I am not hating on Surface. I love Surface, have had a few. I hate on Windows phones though. Those were terrible. I am just pointing out the risk to Surface.

He can't even mentioned the excellent word "Microsoft" in his comment. That is to show the level of hating against Microsoft and its beautifully made product line - Surface.

Windows phones are dead you clown, move on. Yes, yes, we know, you hate them.

Dell are a supplier for Surface devices.

Dell also do financing for surface if you can't afford it.

Why MS do Surface? Same reason why Google do Nexus & Pixel. To help'em build SW.

I love my Surface. It's great for everything iDriod can't do, which is a lot. But, what would make WINDOWS better would be Android apps. Windows, combined with Android apps, is the killer combination... Any smaller Surface device would be seriously useful with Android app access. What's it going to take to make this happen?

Also, Panos carefully said "on your body" not, "in your pocket"... I wonder what his angle is here. 🤔🤔🤔????

Surface Watch confirmed! 😁

Wait! He used 3 words and Microsoft HQ is near Seattle. Half-life 3 confirmed!

You might be onto something there...

It could be "Surface Soap" 😮😮😮

Or, "Surface Cologne" 😮😮😮😮

Rodney, you may be on to something. Bundle Surface Cologne with every Surface Pen sold. Use a scent to create a powerful association with a brand! Like the leather companies that squirt fake leather scent in the malls.

Yes! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Let's do this.

Hololens mobile coming soon.

Headphone is out.... the next can be anything

Surface headphones? I wear hearing aids. Sure would be nice if Cortana could sync with them and provide me with better audio/voice confirmation of computing tasks. My pair of hearing aids cost $2500. Any idea how much innovation you could do selling millions of a $2500 product?

Surface shirts, pants and dresses

... You could use an android emulator instead.

Yes, except a Microsoft native solution (like the bridge they made but never shipped for W10M) would probably be faster and more integrated and available out of the box to most customers. With some sort of Amazon deal (like they have for Alexa), they could put the Amazon App Store of Android apps on Windows. Would be a huge win. Google is doing all the hard work and making Android work well with PCs and a windowed UI anyway.

Truth be told, I don't really care for iOS or Android apps. What I want is the developer base to "come" to the Microsoft Store, somehow, some way. If PWA gets us half there, that's good enough for me.

They will never publish in the Microsoft Store. That route is a dead end.

You be surprised with Microsoft only taking a 5% cut on app. And edge preparing to switch over to chromium.
Things could definitely get interesting.
Not to mention the sleeping giant always connected PCS.

You guys need to think of exactly how android apps fit into the windows ecosystem? They don't fit and don't forget these apps will have to hook into APIs which may not be available on UWP yet and then you have the UX. The apps need to look the part. Besides by allowing android apps into the store, means foregoing any native UWP app development. Plus these apps will have to run in an emulated environment. Then you have a situation where you are running x86/x64 applications in emulation and android apps in emulation. Which will eat up cpu cycle like no tomorrow. Thus severely eating up battery life... So not happening, it just doesn't work.

@ Andrew G.... Keep Dreaming

For as much as we hate on the MS Store it's not actually that bad. In fact in some ways... gaming... it shows the potential to excel all competitors. But there are some glaring holes. And those holes are the things we don't forget. Personal Finance is perhaps the worst. No banks, credit cards, or online brokerages are bad enough. But since there's no phone (the knuckleheads) to run those on, that's perhaps to be forgiven. But... No Mint? No H&R Block? No QuickBooks? No Quicken? No TurboTax? Unforgiveable! Maybe offer these companies 0% store cut for life? Heck... resurrect MS Money if that's what it takes. Bundle it with O365. But fill the personal finance app gap. How can Windows with a straight face call itself a "productivity first" OS without personal finance? What could possibly be more productive?

@Bleached. Oh get out of here man lol, you very well know android apps ain't happening. It derails everything that Microsoft has done and is doing with UWP.

Wake me up when they make a Surface Book without that ridiculous hinge, without that oversize proprietary charging port, and with a USB C Thunderbolt port.

Problem is most 2in1s are not detachable and don't have to house batteries and a processor (and all other internals) in the display meaning the display can be much thinner. When the display is thick, it's hard to get the hinge to look like anything other than what they have.

@Kojackjku. Not really simple. As on a simple hinge it will be top heavy. Imagine a horizontal cabinet door without a magnet or locking mechanism and a very weak hinge. The only way round that is a verrrry stiff hinge (which means foregoing the ability to lift the lid with your finger when closed) that works as structural support on the back of the screen. But now you've lost the ability to detach the screen... So you use a combination of wireframes and a hinge... Problem is at one point or another those wires will snap. Because pressure travels and will not be isolated on the hinges. Even if you isolate the pressure on the hinges, you have an issue of the said hinges snapping too. So yeah... Not so simple. There are hell of a lot of dynamics at play and especially the law of failure points. Good design takes these into consideration and seeks to eliminate them. That Surface book hinge is incredibly well designed.

Publish your workings then StevieBoy 🙄

@Kojackjku. Go ahead then, show us some concepts since it's that easy 😋.

I personally like the design of the hinge. It fits my hand extremely well when carrying it around. If it was flat, it would be sharp and uncomfortable like many other laptops I've carried. I get the complaint of the hinge though. So if you don't like the hinge, buy a different device like a Yoga.

@kojackjky I think you'll find that the surface book hinge wasn't designed to look like a book (that would seem far too trivial for somebody like Panos). I believe the whole point is the hinge is to solve the top-heavy problem of the screen weighing more than the base. The hinge extends the width of the base as the screen is opened, allowing it to be open without over-balancing. That makes it a very clever design.

It won't be called Book anymore

They're already out there, just not MS. What you are saying you want is a Surface Book that's not a Surface Book.

@Tapatio_00. You have options, Surface Laptop or the Surface Pro series. Or the many other laptops and two in ones from other OEMs.

The Surface line has undoubtedly saved laptops. The new OEM 2in1s that have resulted by MS taking the lead in creating lightweight touch friendly devices is fantastic for everybody, enterprise and consumer. But... in some ways the Surface line has put MS further behind in areas like... mobile. Heck they didn’t even care to make an ARM version of Go! Or an LTE version of the SP6! Ridiculous! And no matter what Panos says it probably ain’t about to change anytime soon. I’d write this entire frieking decade off. Don’t think we’ll see anything pocketable until 2021 minimum. And by that time Samsung will be on Gen 2 of their foldable.

To say nothing of the issue of what different folks consider to be "pocketable". I consider fewer and fewer smartphones these days to be pocketable. As such, I consider them extremely limited in usefulness. For me, once you get to a certain size, I would rather just grab my Surface Pro.

Still have an iPhone 6s because yeah, as you point out, these super large phones begin to just get ridiculous. I too would rather just take out a Surface and enjoy a real keyboard. In fact that seems to be Microsoft's mobile "strategy"... tablet sized devices + real keyboards + pens + WoA, and oh yeah the big ace up their sleeve... eSim. But if that's true then why are they leaving it up to their OEMs to create these devices? Why is there not a Qualcomm ARM version of the Go? Why not put eSim in Go? Why wait until who knows when to put ANY kind of SIM in the SP6? Why **** around with Core OS, postponing it until who knows when? It just seems like Surface devices are all about saving the laptop. And that was great. Yay! It worked. Hooray for them (and us)! But what about saving mobile?

Windows laptops needed to be saved, and Microsoft was the only company that could do it. Because Windows. Mobile does not need to be saved. 1.5 billion phones were sold in 2017. Even if mobile DID need to be saved, MS is in no position to save it. This is like saying motorcycles need to be saved, why isn’t General Motors saving them?

Well I meant Microsoft's mobile aspirations. But you make an interesting point. And yeah I do think mobile itself does need to be saved from... boredom. I think about the direction HP was heading with the Elite x3, with its Lapdock, and its docking station when paired Continuum. Almost... a PC in your pocket... a "3 in 1". The first company to pull off the "3 in 1", PC in our pocket, concept will in effect "save" mobile. And personally I believe Microsoft is best suited to do it, if they'd only get off their derriere.

There is a reason there is no ARM Surface. It has something to do about Intel and its copyrights and patents. There is also the problem of the "weak" performance of ARM processors in performing heavy computing tasks. At some point ARM and CISC chips may meet in the middle. But we have a few more years to wait.

With 8cx I don't think that argument will hold in 2019. It'll be interesting to see if MS moves on it in 2019 or not. If they don't I don't see how they can with a straight face encourage OEMs to venture any further down the ARM and eSim primrose path, if they themselves seem loathe to try.

Well, I'll say we love our Surface tablets. In fact, we have three (shh, don't tell my wife it's really 4 because she's getting a Surface Go for Christmas). But I have been burned SOOOOOO many times by Microsoft that I have no confidence that ANY claim they make to something lasting has any believability. We've just taken the position of simply enjoying the devices or services we have for the moment, and avoid any expectation they'll be around in 5-10 years. Sure, they may last. I simply have no faith in it.

Good positioning, man.

Windows 10 has yet to be introduced. This beta we've been living with since July of 2015 has been promising, and exciting to this Mac user that switched, but I'm STILL waiting for the OS to look and feel consistent. I know Linux distros that are more cohesive (I'm looking at you, Ubuntu Budgie.) Panos. If you're all about strutting around like a bad-@$$ why not find the software developers at Microsoft and kick their butts into introducing a polished Windows 10? There's a designer called Avden at YouTube who has posted a concept of Windows 11 called 'Introducing the new Windows 11 Concept'. I'm not shilling for this guy and I get some users wouldn't like the specific design he's offering. But the feel is modern, whereas Windows 10 feels as many years old.

you use macos which looks like something from 2001 and think windows10 looks old? that's great

Must be frustrating for Panos to oversee the design and build of such nice hardware (lack of TB3 ports notwithstanding), only to see it crippled by the Windows team and their spotty updates. As the owner of a Surface Book 2 and a Surface Pro 5, I know it's been frustrating for me.

I have a SP5 and updates have been fine for me. Actually things have progressively gotten better, as they should. Of course I can't speak for SP4 owners - ouch.

The SP5 hasn't been too bad - but the last round of updates totally borked my Surface Book 2. Apparently, the trick is to *not* click "Check for updates", because that signals to Microsoft that you're an "advanced user", and might be in the market to test out some not-fully-qualified updates due for the following Patch Tuesday release. *sigh* https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2018/12/12/microsoft-admits-...

What problem did the SB2 encounter? I maintain three Surface devices for my Church (Surface 3, Surface Pro 3 and Surface Book 2 i5/256). All three units are fully updated and are behaving quite well.

I just want a Surface (in my) Pocket!

Windows had something there when they focused on the camera. I loved the Focus for its dedicated camera button. 900 series and 1020 also were leaps beyond anything else. And Essential’s launch proved how vital the camera is. They’ve proven they can make quality apps for android and iOS (office ports) so MS phone with a windows skin and killer camera could work

All I want from Microsoft is a Surface Go with the new Snapdragon 855 chip or even better, the new Snapdragon 8cx chip with LTE support and 12 to 15 hrs of battery life with 8 GB/128 GB of storage for $500 with the Surface Go Type Cover and Surface Pen.

This would be a great start. If they're too chicken-hearted to give us a phone... or anything even resembling a phone... then yeah, at least give us a Go with decent battery life. 8cx would be my preference. Dan and others were emulating Win32 and had to ask if they were using emulation in Hawaii using 8cx. And for heaven's sake put an eSim in it!

Panos, how are you? Do you want your job?

Cortona beanie hat

"on your body"
Hint at a surface phone?

Surface mini tablet... Phone? Or perhaps just a phablet 🙄😀😛

Surface reproductive organs. So we can have surface cyborg

I love my Surface and all my Microsoft products. I'm glad to hear them say Surface is here for the long run. The truth is, it's here for the long run until it's not. With Microsoft's history it's most likely the latter. I've come to terms of their miscalculations and mismanagement of their products. It's just the way they operate. Here's hoping for a renaissance in a mobile phones.

Mobile phones are dead. Surface implants and Surface organs power by Azure are the next big thing. That'll be the devices that'll kick down the door to Surface Cyborg. We already know they've been working on it for a while. The hardware is actually pretty much done but they're making Surface implants and Surface organ first to give Surface Cyborg more time to mature. Plus it makes for a better story

Mobile phones should never be off the table. To me mobile phones is a place with plenty of innovation capabilities. To be left out of that mix seems to be shortsighted. It may not happen now. But one of these days (most likely years) Microsoft will see the light once again.

Serious question; Did the premise of my response go over your head? It seems like you took my comment seriously but admittedly, I could be completely wrong

LOL! I only responded to the fact you stated "Mobile phones are dead." I took that to mean you thought mobile phones are dead for Microsoft. The other stuff was blah, blah, blah, blah. I figured you were in your own world and who am I to judge. Hahaha! :)

Microsoft should get into Smart TV with surface product line, they should buy a video sharing site like vimeo or something, since google wont allow youtube there and get xbox game streaming and video streaming build in the Windows Smart tv , it would be obvious way for them to go forward and gain market share in IOT

This is actually a REALLY good idea for Ms in my opinion. This seems like a product they could do REALLY well in and the idea fits their portfolio of software and services

Panay - "I've got to keep on mooovin!"

i remember when surface was just an experiment and just a way to showcase to manufacturers how they want windows 8-10 built as laptop/tablet hybrid.

Right now I really enjoy my Lumia 950 XL phone. I would love to see more phone like devices from MS in the future. You see I prefer to not share my data from my handhold PC with Google or Apple. Is that really so hard for MS to understand? That is also why I do not use a Chromebook or a Imac. Now will we see such a device in 2019?