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No, Windows phone isn't dead — and it may never die

With just 0.3 percent share in Gartner's most recent report, things almost couldn't look worst for Windows phone. Blackberry's 0.0 percent (with only 200,000 phones sold last quarter), however, is worse and seems to be the inevitable direction in which Windows phone is headed.

At this point, some of you having read the title may be ready to head off to comments to share your thoughts. But keep reading. I challenge you to a more mature discussion, and you're going to need to read more than the headline.

So given Windows phone's current state, is the platform dead? That depends on who you ask.

Common ground

I recently watched the movie, "Arrival" which is based on a sci-fi short story called, "Story of your life." In the film, aliens come to earth positioning 12 ships in different locations around the planet. The beings in the ships have a completely different language and language structure, both verbal and written, than humans.

The central character in the story is a human linguist whose role is to set the stage for a dialogue between the species. To do so, she must establish common ground, ensuring that both species understand and agree upon the meaning of certain words and concepts. In essence, to have a meaningful and productive conversation she had to make sure everyone was on the same page.

The same must occur when we address whether or not Windows phone is dead.

Dead or alive?

The status of Windows phone is a polarizing topic. Many fans are passionate, and any allegation that their beloved mobile platform is dead sends them into a well-rehearsed defense.

Many critics are equally passionate, and Microsoft's consistently diminishing share fuels these critics' relentless offensive against the platform that has been reported dead several times a year for several years now.

The first thing we must establish as the fundamental underpinnings of this conversation is, "What is dead?" First, as you know, since we are talking about an inanimate object, a platform, that has never actually "lived," the terms dead and alive are applied in a more figurative sense than an actual one. With that said, the word alive means: living, not dead; alert and active; animated.

Dead means no longer active or animated.

Conversely, the word dead means: no longer alive, not alert and active; animated.

When we look at the definitions of these two words, we must think about the object to which we are applying them. Therefore, we must also agree upon what Windows on a phone is. Finally, what aspects of the inanimate Windows on phone platform are sufficiently congruous to qualities of life, to reflect "alertness, activity and animation?"

Signs of life

Emanating from Microsoft's leadership are both vision and activity in relation to its admittedly troubled mobile efforts.

Microsoft's Dona Sarkar heads the Windows Insider Program and actively releases mobile builds to Insiders.

Windows Chief Terry Myerson has expressed Microsoft's commitment to mobile.

The company's CMO Chris Capossela has confirmed Microsoft's commitment to mobile through partnerships and Redmond's category-defining hardware strategy in relation to mobile.

Finally, CEO Satya Nadella shared an "ultimate mobile device" vision.

Clearly, these few examples from Microsoft's leadership, reveal that the company has a vision for and is actively involved in developing Windows on phone. The level of that commitment can (and I'm sure will) be debated, and their failures of the past can (and I'm sure will) be rehearsed.

Empirically speaking, however, Redmond is developing the platform, along with the Universal Windows Platform (UWP). Like a living thing, it is progressing, as further revealed in the forward-looking, Discover what's next for Windows 10 Mobile video from Microsoft's 2016 Ignite Conference below.

Objective observation reveals vision, development and use of Windows on phone.

Microsoft partners including Alcatel, HP and WhartonBrooks have invested millions of dollars in and embrace Windows phone. Here again, the level of success with those OEMs that have and continue to embrace Windows on phone can be debated.

What can't be refuted is that they have and are investing their resources as part of a business strategy to use the Windows platform as part of their mobile strategy.

Not yet thriving, but still alive

Finally, a host of fans (though shrinking) are actively using Windows on phone. The Windows Insiders among this user base engage in active communication with the builders of the platform. Through feedback, via official channels and social media, Windows on phone is being developed in "real time." The progress is visible as interactions are readily observable on social media and as blog posts alert of the changes in new builds.

Clearly, objective observation of the collective examples above leads us to an undeniable conclusion that "Windows on phone" has more in common with the definition of alive than dead.

Even the snarky, "brain dead but on life support" analogy some like to use may not hold up. When an individual is brain dead they cannot consciously respond to external stimuli. Following the critics' analogy through, Insiders' feedback is like external stimuli to the platform, and the responses of fixed bugs, addressed concerns, added features and more are "conscious responses" from the brain, or the Microsoft employees working on the platform. Is the platform in an unhealthy state? Yes. Is it dead? Obviously not.

Windows on phone rose and fell but never died

Though Microsoft's Windows-on-phone strategy has transitioned through various iterations over time, the over-arching platform never died. The central theme since its inception has always been to bring Windows to a pocketable telephony-enabled form factor. Therefore "Windows on phone" can mean any form of pocketable, telephony-capable device.

Unfortunately, the unceremonious failure of Microsoft's efforts at various stages of this vision composes a sad history that many use to point to a supposed inevitable future of more of the same. Many critics at this stage in its lifecycle claim Windows on phone is dead (something that has never historically occurred) rather than a failed iteration and transition to the next for which there is a precedence.

Windows on phone has struggled over the years but has never died.

Pocket PC, Windows Mobile and Windows Phone were all phases of Microsoft's Windows on phone vision on the path to OneCore that Redmond hoped would succeed, but which ultimately failed before transitioning to the next iteration. Windows 10 Mobile is the latest Windows on phone OS, and unlike its predecessors, it shares the same core as Windows desktops. Windows 10 Mobile, therefore, is Windows and is consequently under consistent development as part of UWP. Therein lies further evidence that Windows on phone isn't dead.

Furthermore, Windows 10 on ARM suggests that the Surface "phone" will have full Windows. If so, Microsoft's Windows on phone vision will be fully realized. The consistent progression of the Windows on phone vision, from Pocket PC to Windows 10 Mobile and potentially to full Windows on an ultramobile Surface, reflects a continuity of the Windows on phone story that, though troubled, has never died.

Windows on phone may live on as full Windows 10 on ultramobile PCs

Finally, because Microsoft's ultimate mobile device strategy reflects a vision to redefine the PC and push it into the smartphone space, it is necessary to address the use of the word "phone." If my analysis that Microsoft will be positioning an ultramobile Surface PC with telephony is accurate (which I first suggested in January 2015 and revisted in November of the same year), the Windows on phone strategy will be realized on a pocketable PC. Though the word phone is used, the spirit of the Windows on phone strategy has always included Windows on a pocketable, telephony-enabled device. Microsoft's Terry Myerson's words are consistent with this assessment:

…both cellular connectivity and ARM processors have a role in the technical landscape of the future. So we're going to continue to invest in ARM and cellular. And while I'm not saying what type of device, I think we'll see devices there, Windows devices, that use ARM chips. I think we'll see devices that have cellular connectivity. Sometimes, when you're investing into growth it's easier, but when you're investing for technical strategy or things like that, sometimes people can question it ...

Myerson's statement clearly points to the importance of Windows 10 Mobile as a technical investment for the continued development of cellular and ARM devices.

Though there are numerous paths Microsoft can take with Windows 10 Mobile, this may suggest that Windows 10 Mobile will eventually be subsumed by full Windows 10 on ARM-based, cellular-capable ultramobile PCs.

Full Windows may replace Windows 10 Mobile.

If so, the eventual absence of Windows 10 Mobile on a device, as Microsoft's Windows-on-phone vision progresses, would not be without precedence. Windows Mobile faded from devices as Window Phone replaced it. Windows 10 Mobile did the same to Windows Phone.

As long as Windows lives so does Window on phone

An interesting point to consider is that the introduction of full Windows 10 on an ultramobile PC designed to overlap the smartphone space won't have the same, "beginning with zero market share" challenge Windows Phone had in 2010. Microsoft's category-defining ultimate mobile device will run full Windows 10 and will join the currently 400 million other devices that also use the OS. This may be why Microsoft seems unmoved by Windows phone market share approaching zero percent.

Windows 10 ultramobile PCs will join 400 million other Windows 10 PCs.

As we look at the history of Windows on phone, its admittedly current dismal state (with Windows 10 Mobile), as well as the Windows-on-phone ultramobile PC vision Microsoft is working toward (full Windows on ARM), it's clear that Windows on phone is not dead.

Will Microsoft incorporate mixed-reality, inking and other innovations in its ultimate mobile device? Whatever the final product, if Microsoft is successful, the ultramobile Surface and third-party ultramobile PCs Microsoft partners may build (as they did 2-in-1s) will be category-defining Windows 10 devices. As such they will benefit from the innovations that are part of the platform, as well as the breadth and scope of Windows, as they push Microsoft's enduring Windows on phone vision forward.

Windows on phone is not dead, and ultramobile PCs running full Windows are why the concept of Windows on phone may never die.

Following the story

Windows phone isn't dead

Smartphones are dead

The untold app gap story

Windows Mobile and the enterprise

The Surface Phone

Jason L Ward is a columnist at Windows Central. He provides unique big picture analysis of the complex world of Microsoft. Jason takes the small clues and gives you an insightful big picture perspective through storytelling that you won't find *anywhere* else. Seriously, this dude thinks outside the box. Follow him on Twitter at @JLTechWord. He's doing the "write" thing!

616 Comments
  • Thanks for reading folks! Microsoft's Windows on phone vision has seen the manifestation of a number of "Windows on phone" iterations over the years. Pocket PC, Windows Mobile, Windows Phone and the most recent Windows 10 Mobile. Though each of those iteration's failed to reach mass acceptance and success in the market (though Windows Mobile had above 40% share in 2007 before the iPhone), each ultimately segued to the next iteration where MS hoped the next would succeed. The failure was most certainly not Microsoft's intent, but the overall Windows on phone vision has remained unchanged, never died and persists even to this day with Windows 10 Mobile, OneCore, and a potential full Windows on ARM ultramobile Surface and partner ultramobile PCs. The declining Windows phone market share may not bother Microsoft if full Windows 10 on an ultramobile PC is in fact thier goal. The device will be a new category of telephony-enabled Windows 10 PCs
    benefiting from hundreds of millions of other Windows 10 PCs and the market share they hold. It will be interesting to see how Windows on phone vision evolves in this context. For those who did not read the piece, I challenge you to do so before commenting. Input without reading is often a reaction to the topic, title or other comments while actually claiming response to the content. Sadly, such comments often stand out like a sore thumb to those who actually read the piece since the comment often misses details that are actually in the piece. 🙁 Represent yourselves well folks, whether you agree or disagree, do so intelligently by reading the content and let's have a great discussion!!!! Well you know the drill...LET'S TALK!!!
  • Nice going there with Madoka Magica. Just finished it myself. Amazing.
  • Lol...thanks🙂👍🏿
  • Are you implying that Windows phone is as alive as Sayaka? I have some bad news for you in that case...
  • It's as alive as John Belushi was when he said "Just one more speedball" for the last time.
  • So Jason, how does it feel to have your articles be the highest commented articles on this site? I sometimes read where some accuse you of writing the same thing.  That's not the case, but even if it were, those who come to this site love reading them anyway and it shows when you continue to easily get over 200 comments.  I hope you're getting a bonus each quarter.  :)
  • I didcomment on a couple of his articles that he is repeating himself over and over again. I stand by it, but I still don't miss anythign written by Zac, Dan or Jason on this site. This article is a refreshing proof of how well he writes
  • Thanks hermalive🙂
  • Well to be fair how often do the less competent technology press keep repeating that Windows Phone is dead? Someone's got to keep refuting it.
  • Thanks Chris👍🏿
  • Hi whodaboss I enjoy encouraging people to see things in a way they may not not have seen them before, and to provoke thoughts and ideas that they, maybe, hadn't conceived. I'm am hopeful if those things occur beneficial and engaging conversation, whether someone agrees or disagrees with me, will ensue.🙂
  • @Jason, I do believe you provide a format for good discussion.  I don't always see the light at the end of the tunnel as you do, but I'm still hopeful.   My only problem is that I wished I hadn't jump on the Windows Phone bandwagon in the beginning.  Because so much that I loved about the earliest OS iteration is now gone.  That's my only complaint.  I wish they would have kept the things that made WP special (IMHO) and just added to it.  Those who were the early adopters knows what I'm referring to.  But nothing stops progress I guess, hopefully Microsoft has something noteworthy in the near future. 
  • I have always seen things the way to tell them, I always thought in the end Windows Phone would need to run Win32 apps.  It's slowly getting there, Continuum was the first step, Windows on ARM is the next. Though I originally thought it would end up with phones running on Intel Atom SoC, but Intel has dropped the Atom series and no other chip from Intel is yet good enough for power usage (Core-m might soon be good enough).
  • You can read the title, go to comments and write. And as of late these article say nothing at all so that's how people should do :D
  • Paolo, pretty much.   Jason just produces one clickbait ad after another without any useful information, I don't even read them.  :) (with my ad blocker up I have commented)  Windows Phone has been dead man walking 7 years ago, now its buried next to Elvis... facts are more useful than fantasy.  My thought is some company is paying them directly to produce these worthless articles.  Short term clicks will eventually end up hurting them with long time users.
  • Actually these articles are the only ones that probably aren't paid because they create enough traffic. If you notice since the phone project has failed one year ago this site started having tens of "sponsored" articles about games and hardware products.
  • Hi MakoDaniels thanks for visiting the site. Rest assured the time and effort I put into my work reflects a sincerity and level of integrity you won't find in clickbait pieces🙂 Also, by your own admission you haven't read the content, this an assessment of the "usefulness" of the information I provide you cannot logically speak to. Your comment without reading, sadly doesn't reflect what I believe is your ability to present a point by point rebuttal to the systematic presentation of the arguments and references I present to support my thesis. I welcome you to that level of discussion. Thanks again for visiting.👍🏿
  • The point is you should do politics jason. What you say can't be usually contraddicted and your reasoning is usually sound and logic. The point is your reasoning usually brings us to nothing. I.e. You are good at demostrating things which are usually void of any content. Saying that something is not dead by giving your own definition of what dead mean is kinda void. It's like looking at a corpse and saying it is not dead because there are worms on it that are actually alive so the corpse has some life in it and something that has life in it is not dead, you like how I demonstrate corpses are not dead?
  • Hi Paolo: Thanks for responding. I was fairly comfortable with what o believed the words alive and dead were, but to remove myself from the equation as the determiner of the definition I actually looked the terms up in the dictionary and posted the official definitions as the parameters of this discussion. I then proceeded to give examples of Windows on phone that objectively parallel the official definitions of what would denote life, ie. activity, animation. Objective observation when looking at the platform, continued internal development of the platform, Insider build releases, investments amounting to millions of dollars from OEM partners who embrace the platform as part of the strategic Mobile business strategy, HP, Acer, Alcatel, Panasonic, etc, users who actively use the platform and engage in observable feedback on social media with M(Dona Sarkar), blog posts from MS updating on progress on builds, the video I posted from Microsoft Ignite 2016 titled Discover the Future of Windows 10 Mobile which includes both a presentation for MS and a Q and A with the business reps and developers who have an interest and/or are potential users of the platform - all of these things together point to a platform that has more in common with the definition of "life" than "dead." Now, add to that a potential Windows on ARM ultramobile PC and there is a potential move forward beyond the current state. That may or may not work but the current state excluding this potential future action still, at this moment is more consistent with alive, though in a very dire state, than dead. So, again I didnt use my own definition, I used the dictionary's. Also my reasoning clearly leads to objective observation of a platform with real issues and problems that is still in a state more consistent with the definition of life than dead. To the point of your analogy, the life you point to in the worms are inherent to the worms, not the objectivley observable dead corpse. The examples I give point to life as an inherent quality of the platform. I submit again, a systematic rebuttal of what I present as the indicators of life are a more affective means to support your opposing position. Thanks for the feedback!🙂
  • Yet you exclude the two main indicators: marketshare and devsupport. Believe me I invested hundred of hour in app development for 8.1 apps and then UWP. As marketshare shows and my devcenter sale confirms the phone market is dead while uwp sales on pcs and tablet are on life support. Phone may be resurrected who knows but at the moment it's a flat line. I would really like to buy wp again and start developing again for the platform...
  • Actually Paolo please revisit the very beginning of the article, where you will see my opening sentence and introductory paragraph directly reference dropping market share, a market share of .3 approaching 0.0 Here's the excerpt: "Whenever Gartner releases its latest smartphone market share numbers, the expected decline in Windows phone market share is followed by the expected, "Windows phone is dead!" mantra.
    With just 0.3 percent share in Gartner's most recent report, things almost couldn't look worst for Windows phone. Blackberry's 0.0 percent (with only 200,000 phones sold last quarter), however, is worse and seems to be the inevitable direction in which Windows phone is headed." Also, I make a point in the end by addressing why MS may be unconcerned about market share: "An interesting point to consider is that the introduction of full Windows 10 on an ultramobile PC designed to overlap the smartphone space won't have the same, "beginning with zero market share" challenge Windows Phone had in 2010. Microsoft's category-defining ultimate mobile device will run full Windows 10 and will join the currently 400 million other devices that also use the OS. This may be why Microsoft seems unmoved by Windows phone market share approaching zero percent." I'm not sure if you read the piece, but your assertion above about reading the title and heading to comments, and you missing those very obvious references, particularly the opening paragraph MAY suggest you followed that advice. I hope not. We're all human. Maybe you just forgot🙂 Also, though I make no specific mention of developer support I am aware of it and it is part of my continued narrative as the pieces I link to at the end of the piece under "Follow the Story" communicate in detail. A couple of pieces there such as "If Microsoft doesnt kill at BUILD 2017 the Surface phone may be dead on arrival (Of course we know BUILD is a developers conference😎, and "This is what needs happen first in order for a Surface phone to succeed(Which is another appeal to the need for ecosystem building to support and sustain the platform)" speak in great and critical detail to the need for developer support and aggressive efforts to garner that support. In a more general address within the piece we know that lack of developer support has been a major factor in the failures of the past which I incorporate in this umbrella statement in this excerpt from the piece: "Unfortunately, the unceremonious failure of Microsoft's efforts at various stages of this vision composes a sad history that many use to point to a supposed inevitable future of more of the same." Thanks for the discussion🙂
  • About your excerpt: Again you are saying it is dead but in the future they could do something new and open a new market. Well ok, you are saying Microsoft is not dead, on that I agree since at my enterprise we use their tech every day and it's not dead at all. Change the title to microsoft isn't dead and they could be relevant again in the mobile space in some years ☺
  • Hi Paolo actually I'm not say Microsoft is not dead, though I agree with that point.🙂 I am saying that Windows on phone isn't dead as this LONG excerpt indicates:😉 "Though Microsoft's Windows-on-phone strategy has transitioned through various iterations over time, the over-arching platform never died. The central theme since its inception has always been to bring Windows to a pocketable telephony-enabled form factor. Therefore "Windows on phone" can mean any form of pocketable, telephony-capable device. "Unfortunately, the unceremonious failure of Microsoft's efforts at various stages of this vision composes a sad history that many use to point to a supposed inevitable future of more of the same. Many critics at this stage in its lifecycle claim Windows on phone is dead (something that has never historically occurred) rather than a failed iteration and transition to the next for which there is a precedence. Pocket PC, Windows Mobile and Windows Phone were all phases of Microsoft's Windows on phone vision on the path to OneCore that Redmond hoped would succeed, but which ultimately failed before transitioning to the next iteration. Windows 10 Mobile is the latest Windows on phone OS, and unlike its predecessors, it shares the same core as Windows desktops. Windows 10 Mobile, therefore, is Windows and is consequently under consistent development as part of UWP. Therein lies further evidence that Windows on phone isn't dead.
    Furthermore, Windows 10 on ARM suggests that the Surface "phone" will have full Windows. If so, Microsoft's Windows on phone vision will be fully realized. The consistent progression of the Windows on phone vision, from Pocket PC to Windows 10 Mobile and potentially to full Windows on an ultramobile Surface, reflects a continuity of the Windows on phone story that, though troubled, has never died."
  • And again, you should be a politician. I'll stop pointing out how you play with words and go in circles to demonstrate a thesis that's tailored to your own needs but that has no impact on reality, you would quote your piece again answering to everything but saying nothing, like a true politician 😂 You are saying that the concept of windows on a phone device may still be possible, well...duh!
  • You succeed in insulting me, but fail to refute my point🙂.
  • Jason, I didn't read your article because chances are its a rehash of your stupid article from last week.  imo I can only think of two things at this point, either this site is involved in silly clickbait articles and is going down the road of canibalizing its own readers which many MSM companies are now involved in or the hired someone that apparently is not able to produce anything other than comedy, you certainly don't understand the tech industry, but it could be you are well versed in clickbait schemes.   Really you are a prime example of modern content providers... it usually ends poorly.    There is nothing logical about any of your presentations to have an argument about or a discussion.    No worries though... blocking WC for all my users, I seriously doubt any of them visited this place anyway.  Jason you are prime example of how not to provide content, creating clickbait is not professional.   
  • I'm sorry to hear that. I would hope that if you don't like my work, there are a host of other authors you can follow. I hope you choose that as a suitable recourse. Also as i shared I'm am not motivated toward clickbait pieces. Though you may not agree with my views they certainly are not opportunistic "follow the flavor of the day" pieces that are the nature of clickbait pieces. In fact, it seems that I take a unique position amongst what is certainly an echo chamber of repeated content among many sites. So no, my work is not clickbait at all🙂 Also as I have not used words such as stupid or overt rudeness' in my discourse with you I feel a mature and professional discourse, even where two parties disagree, would see that basic respect and courtesy reciprocated. Thank you for your time and I hope all goes well for you going forward.
  • Probably a bonus each quarter of a quarter.
  • Great article. I enjoy reading your articles. I don't doubt Microsoft can turn around their mobile phones, but only if they fully commit (make available on all carriers in as many places as possible) and stop rebooting, making people keep buying new due to lack of upgradability. I know they can, but am skeptical based on previous iterations (WP7, WP8, and current lack W10 Mobile). An example of another reboot would be Winodws on ARM coming to mobile platform. While cool, would mean current devices cannot be upgraded...again. So, they would have to compel people to do so. They can't just put something out and hope it catches fire. Marketing, availability, and affordability are the life and blood of establishing a stable ecosystem. Commitment is a two way street. As much as I loved my Band 2, I would hesitate to buy a Band 3 because they stopped supporting my device in the manner they did. I feel the same way about my Windows Phone. I had to go back to Android. I miss my WP and would love another, but will hesitate when the elusive "Surafce Phone" does finally come out.
  • Yep. And getting the clown running the ship to get onboard, while also publicly backing it instead of dodging any reference to it is a must.
  • I wish that egg-head would pull a Humpty Dumpty.
  • many android phones receive at most, one OS update... maybe two. you're lucky if you have a pixel or nexus. but aside from that, they're not that much different than android.
  • On Windows, updates really matter. If you get left behind, apps stop working and you cannot access the new apps. That isn't the case with Android. Version updates don't really matter. Google just stopped support and updating Gingerbread phones. Gingerbread was released in 2010! Only now will those phones start seeing app issues. Microsoft doesn't come anywhere near that kind of support.
  • What? Every app released for Windows Phone 7 since 2010 still works on Windows 10 Mobile. Windows is the definition of backwards compatibility for apps.
  • It might be backwards compatible, but it isn't forwards compatible. Your WP7 device cannot run apps from WP8 and W10M. Your WP8 device cannot run W10M apps. Backwards compatibility isn't as important as forward compatibility. Do you want to buy a phone this year to find out you can install apps next year? That isn't an issue on Android and iPhone. Even phones from 2010 can run the newest apps. Android 2.3 devices can run the same apps as 7.1!
  • That's a little true, but not widely true. Many apps rely on new features and have minimum versions. A lot of popular apps no longer work on older versions. New apps that weren't out back then tend to not target old versions either. The developer chooses the minimum API version. So, very simple apps, yeah, they might still work. The more useful apps though? Absolutely not. The lower the minimum API the developer chooses, the more restricted the feature set. It has nothing to do with Google support, but each individual app developer support, hence why the fragmentation is such a big deal.
  • Just not true I'm afraid. A handful of apps yes, but plenty refuse to work.
  • JotaKa, if you really use windows mobile 7, 8.1 or 10 you would like encounter random app failing at one time or another. Microsoft has done a generally good job on Windows Mobile 10 i agree but Google has done a better job with their Android. I use both platform and i know this from my hand on experience no fanboy bullshit. In term of technical feature and general stablility, the google nexus phone beat ms lumia hands down. Bottomline, does not even matter whether WM10 is dead in the eyes of public cause nothing say here could change a non-believer to a die hard WM10 supporter. Those that has WM10 will continue to use them till the next big thing, Windows on ARM or surface phone.
  • This isn't true at all. Plenty of android apps have specific versions that they cannot run on. This is entirely up to the developer.
  • Of course there are exceptions, but they are rare. It most certainly isn't across the board as with Windows. No UWP will run on WP7 or WP8.
  • Wait, are you saying UWP was a success and a lot of apps are using it and therefore is effecting wp8 users?
  • Never said it was a success, but keeping older versions of Windows from accessing UWP is certainly helping prevent success. Microsoft needs users, they can't afford to keep leaving people behind. Can you really trust them going forward? How long until they abandon UWP?
  • well, than if it wasn't a success, then it's not heavily affecting windows phone users. moreover, i run into app's not installing on older android devices a *lot*. in any case, they're worried about gaining users, not losing them. if they lost what they have now, it wouldn't be much. moreover, the folks who are still with the platform are more likely to put up with a device-switch. because if we're still here, we know what's going on. that's what i think people keep failing to realize. windows doesn't need to worry about keeping users. they need to worry about gaining users and they're not worried about it yet. they will be when they release their next phone-call capable device. that's when you can start talking about whether they're succeeding or failing. they're not *trying* to increase users right now. so its difficult to say they're failing when their user numbers aren't growing. oh, also, why would they abandon UWP? they have no history of abandoning enormously important featuresets of their OS. UWP isn't a mobile technology. its a mobile-capable technology. but dropping UWP is not the same as dropping WP7.
  • You think not having Skype work any longer isn't affecting Windows Phone 8 users?
  • Sorry but that's total nonsense. Android apps are incredibly sensitive to OS version number, device and launcher variants, hardware capabilities and region. Far more so than on Windows Phone. Even my 1020s stuck on old versions of W10M can accept all the new app updates, even my Windows 8.1 device can accept more than half.
  • Your 1020 isn't using stable software. You have basically hacked it at this point. It wouldn't run any UWP apps with the approved software. That is much worse than the possibility an app might not work or all features might not work. These issues are rare unless you are running something as old as Gingerbread. If you are using WP7, you are completely screwed.
  • I agree with most of what you said. However, considering the extremely small number of people actually using Windows 10 Mobile or Windows Phone 8.x, i don't think that those of use still using their devices will feel too bad, if an ultra-mobile pocketable PC was well designed and did several things that no other Mobile device does currently (Full Windows aside).
  • Thanks Stiv and thanks for contributing to the discussion 🙂
  • This is where that road ends, the carrier road that is. MS does need to make a splash, something  MS is pretty horrible at. But it's time to relegate the carriers to the lowly status of service provider
    Meaning, they get no say on hardware whatsoever. No hold over firmware updates/software updates, nothing but the privledge to provide hardware at their locations, period. much like your ISP has no say over hardware you use for intermet?
  • This would be the Apple model. This would be fine if every Windows device (phone?) were able to be activated on every network spectrum band and on both GSM and CDMA. CDMA availabilty is important in the US still. We are not a GSM-only country.  
  • your ISP does have a say on what hardware you use for the internet in regards to your modem at least. not as tightly controlled as mobile carriers, but they do have a say.
  • Hi Stiv X! Do you really think Windows on ARM is a reboot or is it progress? I think it's a great idea and one that will help integrate the Windows 10 common core experience even further. Agree with you about the Band. Don't like how they abandoned it/us.
  • It will be a reboot as current devices will not run it and Microsoft has only mentioned 6" and larger devices in regards to WoA.
  • That's good article
  • lets talk? OK how is it not going to die if W10M is already dead? APP gap, no new features, bugs, developers leaving the boat, unsupported devices etc... what does this mean if not death?
  • Hi Pappale...Read the article again...I explain it there.😉
  • Your reply to Pappale, was excellent, leaping lumps of coal while giving no offense in anything. 😉
  • He didn't get to the part...in the beginning...that suggested reading the article and having a more mature conversation.
  • It's like the calm before the storm
  • Haha. We are already in the eye if the storm!!
  • And here's the guy that has not read the article. Jason you are right! Sticks out like a sore thumb.
  • He just repeats same things over and over. It's boring.
  • Mmm let's see what do we got here. TL;DR, W10 is W10m.
    Original Apps are too mainstream for W10m users such as myself, so one would opt for alternative which would have superior quality over the original ones. And for the record, Edge don't bite when you need to reach the web.
    No new features you say, Android and iOS has been reviving old features back, eliminating some others and vice versa.
    Bugs? Insider preview acknowledges it and highly recommends to choose only a spare phone for particular rings. If you mean W10m production build has bugs, you must be joking.
    W10m UWP app developers are steadily increasing, those who leave are mostly from Wp8.
    Msft has been trying so hard to support most devices, lately. I mean 90% of the Wp8.1 devices with 1Gb of RAM are already eligible for upgrade and they would run W10m smoothly. Android cannot simply do that. W10 on mobile is alive and kicking and it will be for years to come.
  • There are tons of bugs in Production, lol. And that saddens me.
  • This is what I don't get. I've used production and I have switched to fast-ring. Though there are certain bugs I encounter on Insider version that are new, when using production I was never in a BUG or CRASH free world  like some talk about. I have a lumia 950XL and regardless of build PRD / FAST / SLOW / MODERATE... I always had the same problems. Taking pictures from lock screen sometimes cause reboot. Photos app sometimes crashes. Sending text messages sometimes hangs and I'm unable to write until the message gets sent. Syncing Outlook (whether my Outlook.com account or Exchange at work) it takes forever. Usually I hit sync when I wake up so that after i get dressed, brush my teeth and am on the way out can read the new emails. Not to say that iPhone is crash free, since Facebook, has crashed and sound has also stopped coming out of apps, but the error/crash rate on the iPhone is much less than Windows when comparing usage.
  • That simply means they are too lazy/cheap/stupid/overcalculated to fix them.
  • I haven't noticed any, can you please point them out?
  • Yes very true. I'm still using a L730 with Windows 10 and it works fine since I got off the Insider program. Apps are updated and I've noticed many apps still say "Windows 8 or higher". So Windows 8 phones can still get apps. That's far from dead.
  • That's the number one thing people always say. Us Windows phone users know about that, and we don't care.
    The very few app I use on Windows phone are all I need. I do not need thousands of apps.
  • Jason, thanks for your posts. Enlightening and encouraging....
  • You're welcome Clyde and thank you😎!
  • wp is about as alive as latestage cancer imagine the windowsphone like a internet famous celebrity with cancer cells all over its body (apps, features, design, hardware). it knows it's got cancer, it tried tried ratioation (win10m) but that didnt work, it just gave it a bit more time alive and +0.3% change for recovery. most doctors and have given up because its fairly ovbious it's goona die but a few priests and witchdoctors still try although they too dont have much faith in its salvation. you tell it's folowers that its basically dead, but they refute that by saying it still breaths, it still does its daily job, and it has plans for the future, "there's still a shot. there's this new drug, and some breakthroughs in cancer treament every other month (continuum, win32). it might work. you never know" "its not dead". but even it's parents have made thier peace with the eventual outcome and countinue doeing their family traditions and vacations even though they still pay for the basic treatment. you cant even talk about its flaws or give it advice on how to attract more followers, because its curent fanatic followers will immediatelly lash out at you. but that doesnt really matter because it doesnt give a **** about any advice you give it (feedback hub) although it always asks for your comments at the end of every post it makes on social media. so follow it social media,enjoy it's content, buy its merchandise if you really like it, but dont ignore the reality and lash out at those who dont like it! it has flaws and it has cancer. deal with it!
  • The fact you just used cancer as a way to get your point across is disgusting. Not like you would give a moral damn, but still disgusting. You simply couldn't settle with "I dislike WP because if this", you had to run a mock of a serious global life threatening, destroying condition.
  • you're a moron. not because youre offended by my use of cancer (which btw everyone on earth had/has/will have cancerous cells; those cells just die out in most people), but mostly youre a moron because you clearly didnt understand anything of what i wrote. but thanks for proving part of my point, dumbass!
  • I honestly didn't give a damn what you wrote, as honestly if someone hates MS, or how Windows is made etc, it's none of my concern, and I'm not lashing out on your views, I couldn't give a damn. Hell, you could have been talking about apple and my comment would have been the same; so please explain how I'm proving your point (and you're called me the dumbass, very pitiful). And I love how you try to justify your use on cancer, as the every day cancerous cells. Even though you go on to compare it to cancer treatment (pretty sure everyone doesn't receive treatment for the everyday cell). Please, let the "dumbass" just try to comprehend your crappy logic. You can call me a dumbass, or any other name under the sun for all I care, but at least I'm not the one who took a shot at cancer to get my views across, and then *try to justify it as if you're the innocent one ( :)??)*. What a crappy perspective on the world you have. Of course, your predictable reply is probably going to be the fashionable denial, and that you're right and anyone offended in you using cancer, is a moron. So I'll leave you to your terrible logic, no point wasting any more of my time
  • Seems like you're an oncologist.
  • Aren't you tired of repeting same words over and over in multiple articles? Do you know something else to write about except "Windows isn't dead"? Not to blame you very much, there isn't a lot left to write about Windows Mobile...
  • Sure Dusan here are all of my articles www.windowscentral.com/author/jason-ward , as you can see in the six or so pages of articles, there are quite a variety of topics from AI and bots, Windows Holographic, HoloLens, Quantum Computing, Surface, Interviews with Microsoft employees and culture shifts, Cortana, Hardware investments, Surface Studio, the Internet of Things and more. 😉 Please visit those pieces for variety and I sincerely hope you enjoy them. Thanks for asking😉
  • Don't stop writing about it Jason, I enjoy your articles very much and have learned a lot. Well written and informative.
  • Yeah, please don't stop writing about this. Someday it will finally sink in.
  • I am praying that atleast some of the articles you have written becomes reality someday.
  • I've read most of them, I've been reader of WC since 2013, i think, maybe even earlier. I didn't litterely mean that you don't know how to write something else, just that your theme "Windows phone isn't dead" is over used. Every few articles you are writting how Windows Mobile (win on a phone, win phone, mobile, call it however you want) isn't dead, and reassuring us, the readers in the same things over and over, and how MSFT is retreching, doing great job with Mobile, how they are great and have a vision and so on. It's been a while that is looks like you are paid to make advertisement with your articles. The quality of the writting is on the par, who else can write tons of pages on the same theme (Windows Mobile isn't dead, with few differentiations)? I don't know anybody. Just, it became overwhelming. And I express myself as your customer, I'm paying you as a viewer, although the ad-blocker is activated through the Chrome, I have few other devices which do not have any ad blocker. Please, write about something else.
  • You know what, you don't have to read it.
  • I woudl say Dusan, please read other articles by Jason (for which he has provided you the link) rather than ONLY the ones with the title "windows phone is/isn't dead"
  • I've read most of his articles so far.
  • Ah Jason, and just today I was wondering where your articles were. :) I find it funny how most of the stats used to address if Windows is dead on a phone come from sales, not usage.  I doubt a carrier will tell you usage stats on how many Windows devices are currently registered to their network, although they know it.  It's all about, "only 300,000 Windows devices sold last quarter! That's a sign that nobody buys them!"
  • It's also a sign that there is nothing new for sale. I don't show up in those stupid quarterly SALES market share reports, but I've had an L950 about as long as they've been around.
  • I agree; I have plenty of Windows phones but haven't been on any useful reports for months.  Unfortunately, for OEMs, the only numbers they care about is how much money they actively make on a device (sales).  Making a phone that will last for 2-3 years is actually bad for them, because it means less profits.
  • Usage stats are not as important. They don't give you future numbers, just past numbers. If you aren't selling phones today, they won't be used tomorrow.
  • Usage stats aren't important to YOU because they don't as strongly fit your narrative.  In fact, quarterly sales numbers are NOT a reliable indicator of the future. There's just enough data.  A vast majority of those sales of say iPhone 7 are just iPhone 5 or iPhone 6 people upgrading.  How many? I don't know and neither do you.  Use numbers show what is being used TODAY.  I haven't upgraded since the L950 launched.  So I'm not included in several quarterly sales market share data.  I know.  It doesn't matter to you because you have confirmation bias and only accept anything that bashes Windows.
  • Let's see these amazing usage stats. Why isn't Microsoft touting then if they are so great? W10M is the only version that matters now as it is the only one that runs UWP. The total number of W10M devices is pitiful. No way they even hit 10 million. Given the number of iOS and Android devices in the wild, usage stats are probably worse than sales stats.
  • I don't think anyone is claiming the numbers are amazing.  Just what would impress you?  If 10 million devices were in use, would you care?  20 million?  40 million?
  • Then why are they bringing them up? They obviously aren't great at all. Even Microsoft doesn't care!
  • To be clear, @DragonPoo...nothing Windows Mobile will impress @bleached.  He has a BASH answer for everything.  If you showed him whatever millions are in use, he'd say it doesn't matter because iDroid has more.  The unreasonable can't be impressed if they are on a mission to BASH at all costs.  Say you like something, he'll tell you how Android can (sorta) do it.  Say it's about the apps, he'll counter with some lack of "compelling platform" retort that he makes sound as if he has secret marketing studies that no one else knows about.  Confront him on that and he proclaims more secret data analysis about it being obvious because "the market has spoken", ignoring the many variables that go into consumers decisions including APPS, sales person "guidance", marketing, etc.  He's not interested in any real dialog. He's only interested in BASHING.  He will *NEVER* concede any positive point about Windows Mobile.  He will *ONLY* BASH.  It's as if it is his job.
  • Where would you propose to get user base numbers?  Microsoft doesn't have them, they only have sales data.  Since they are doing whatever nonsense "retrenching" they are doing, this data isn't uber important to them.  You have no basis for estimating that "usage stats are probably worse than sales stats".  In fact, that shows a clear lack of understanding of statistics and only spouting whatever you can think of to bash.  I suppose they can try estimating based on ads like some companies do, but the numbers will skew towards Android as most sites recognize by browsing as coming from an Android and will attemtp to send me to the Play Store to grab an app.  I imagine that the carriers have better data, but not 100% accurate.  My AT&T account doesn't change the phone I use unless I tell it to or in the case of most people, go through an official "upgrade". I swap my SIM between a few Windows and and an Android device.  Enough people buy phones on eBay and Amazon and even manufacturer direct where the carrier data wouldn't be extremely solid.  Considering the saturation of the overall phone market, it is safe to assume that a significant majority of quarterly sales data is people upgrading what they are already using, going from iPhoneX to iPhoneY or Galaxy S(X) to Galaxy S(Y).  With no new devices in the Windows market, the quarterly sales numbers were predicted with certainty to shrivel down to almost nothing. That doesn't mean that there are people like me with my Lumia 950 and my Lumia 1020 that both still get plenty of use.  The variables are more convenient than your simplistic "BASH BASH BASH" tactics, but you seem to have a lot of fun doing it.
  • Microsoft certainly has user base numbers. All those phones still access the App Store. My analysis isn't simplistic. Just saying it is because of apps is simplistic. When we look back, the things that put Android on the map were Verizon's Droid Does ads and Samsungs crazy "throw in every rediculous feature ever and market them" strategy. The interesting thing about this is it didn't require Google to create those features or market them. They were smart, getting the carriers and manufacturers invested into the platform. They took the torch and ran with it. Microsoft did the exact opposite. Their platform was locked down and feature lacking. Manufacturers and carriers couldn't add features and it was easy for users to remove any apps they did add. Manufacturers basically put no effort in and carriers actually pushed users away. They certainly didn't treat it like their Android phones. I don't see how anyone can look back and not see this as the biggest issue with Windows phones. Microsoft did not get the most important part of the sales chain excited. Even Balmer now has admitted it. When he says they should have made first party hardware quicker, I think that is what he is saying. They needed to take the reigns because it is a locked down platform and other manufacturers weren't going to do it. If you want Microsoft to fail, then keep cheer leading these bonehead ideas. Let them keep making the same mistakes again and again. The bottom line is, they need to get manufacturers and carriers excited about their phones and that is going to be harder than ever, especially if they keep repeating the mistakes of the past.
  • Just saying (over and over) that it is because of Windows is simplistic.
  • It must be only in the US because I know more than a few people using Windows Phones and still see people on the bus and metro using them. We even have bank apps that work and all carriers have apps. The US is actually a small part of this great big world.
  • Hate to break it to you, but if your country isn't part of the "World Series" of baseball, it obviously doesn't exist. :P I know the world is more than just the USA.  I don't know if the stats that get quoted for sales are US-only, or Global.
  • The usage percent isn't much different. Less than %1 percent of total used smartphones are Windows Phones.
  • Please source this data because I haven't heard this from anyone but you. 
  • Very good article and well thought out. As a Windows Mobile user, I'm looking forward to what Microsoft has planned for Mobile. Until then, i will ride it out. I would definitely love to see a Surface branded ultra-mobile PC. It will be even more interesting to see what design features, hardware features and software features will be made available.
  • Thanks Vincent. It will be interesting to see what Microsoft brings to the table😎
  • I'm a devoted WP fan but this article is clearly just more click bait.
    WP is very clearly dead.
    If your heart rate was running at 0.3% there would be physical signs of life but you would never return to health from it, the damage sustained meaning death would be the only option.
    Whether a miracle then happens and we end up with a "LAZARUS PHONE" but in a completly different iteration remains to be seen but in it's current form, WP is most definitely dead.
  • So you didn't read it then.
  • Hi n m...I actually presented well thought out and well presented arguments as to why I feel Windows on phone is not dead. This is certainly not a shallow clickbait piece. Rather than a general analogy as a rebuttal to my arguments, can you offer a rebuttal to each of the points that I used to support my position? Thanks for being part of the discussion and I'm looking forward to your response.🙂
  • It is all semantics. Windows 10 Mobile is certainly dead or at least dying. Microsoft hasn't put effort into it and it quite seems like it is going to be replaced by WoA. Rumor has it they will stop feature updates for W10M after RS3. They have only mentioned 6" and greater devices though for WoA, so Windows on Phablet might be a better term.
  • So why are you here bleached? Wouldn't it be better to leave us sick and dying in peace? You will never convince me that my L650 and Windows 10 are not worthy.
  • You clearly have either missed the point, or are here just to comment. Don't you still get it? it does not matter weather you call it phone, tablet, PC, 'ultra-mobile' or something else. it is about converting a proper PC which has the abitlity to install software (and not just apps par say) on a device which is smaller than 6" and can be carried along all day.
  • It is quite easy to understand what Microsoft is doing. They think they may be able to convert some enterprise customers to using WoA mobile devices. For some reason they think professionals are interested in using underpowered Windows hardware while carrying around empty laptop shells. Win32 isn't going to be a mainstream selling point, as was pointed out in Jason's recent article. Being able to run Win32 on underpowered ARM processors isn't going to be a game changer and it seems like Microsoft agrees. If they really had something big coming and a plan to re-enter the consumer mobile market, they would be doing more to bolster the ecosystem and create better conditions for the launch. Microsoft doesn't seem to have much faith if they do have grand plans for mobile devices. Windows phones are dead. Limited support will continue for the immediately future, but current devices are being left behind.
  • @bleached doesn't care. Look at his posting history. His ONLY purpose in life is to BASH BASH BASH.
  • 0.3% is the stats used to show how many WP sales there have been. Not usage. It's not surprising the sales are so low, considering MS removed all of their phones off the shelves, and only a select few OEM's are currently selling. Usage stats on the other hand, will be different to the 0.3% stat
  • Window's phones never had great sales numbers. Usage stats won't be high, especially since the few sales they have had are really low end devices that people are eager to replace. You don't use a L520 as long as a Galaxy S or iPhone.
  • I'm by no means saying WP's usage stats will be as high as iPhone/android, all I'm saying is there's a huge difference with sales stats, and usage stats
  • bleached only cares about any information he can use to bash. Quarterly sales numbers are more easily **estimated**, thus he can use those in his obsessed misssion.
  • Again, let's see these usage stats. No way W10M is even .1% of devices in the wild.
  • "No way" again...because you say so? You...who wakes up in the morning ready to BASH BASH BASH, no matter what?  If we find any data that supports >.1% will you cease your copy/paste, broken record bashing??
  • There are at least 2.5 billion smartphones out there. Conservatively, 1.5 billion Android and 1 billion Apple. For W10M to be 0.1% there would need to be 25 million in the wild. Microsoft has definitely not sold that many devices in the past year. They didn't update very many and they didn't make the update easy to find. 25 million might be possible, but it is unlikely.
  • There will be no miracle phone device. There will be a slew of other devices that run Windows 10. Some of them will function like a phone.
  • Microsoft has now a golden chance to win this war, mostly i use android for now, but for what i gathered from WM10, it has an excellent memory management, you really can use you external sdcard as phone memory and you dont even have to format it to a different file format, i really love this feature. Apart from the fact that it needs some stability in the store app its a great OS and its exactly what i've been searching for for a while. 
  • I agree that the so called death of Windows on phone is incorrect and I understand where MS are going with the ultra mobile pc. As a Windows fan it's easy to buy into the strategy and early await for the paradigm shift MS are telling us will happen. The problem I see is that right now the majority of mobile users are on Android or Apple. The same people are or have already moved to using their personal computing needs to their respective providers tablets or computer. Those same people have bought apps and music to run on their platforms, so they are heavily invested. However good MS make the ultra mobile PC I'm struggling to see how they will win over those invested in alternative platforms. It's a bit like the VHS vs Betamax situation where technically best is not necessarily the most popular option and without popular demand comes d....
  • There are and always will be first time phone buyers.
  • This is where the placing of Microsoft's services and apps on Apple and Android begins to make sense (although like many others at the time, I didn't think it made sense.) If you provide great services on the other platforms that people make use of every day, then there is not as much trepidation in switching to another platform in that you wouldn't have to try to move data from one platform to another but would simply be able to log in and your data would be there. And if you can have a more feature rich version of those services on your own platform, even better. Yes, there are apps that people feel they just have to have that aren't available on the platform, but a lot of times these apps' popularity wane over time when something else comes along to capture the public's interest. If Microsoft can get the developers of these new apps on the ecosystem, then we may begin to see uptake of the platform.
  • Yes, dqgeek, the only thing that makes sense on MS Services on the other platforms as you say. Other than that, there's still a lot of ifs to think of the majority of mobile users migrating for Android Or Apple to MS ultra mobile PC. Personally I can't wait to see what comes next but even if MS make the best service ever that will need to do a ton of marketing work to won over the popular vote.
  • To me the apps and services play comes to fruition if Microsoft puts out a unique, gotta have, device and markets it aggressively. Then you don't have as many people saying, "I would love to get that, but all my stuff is in Google Docs, etc."
  • People in the politics game could learn a lot from you.  How you frame the discussion at the beginning of the article was a stroke of genius, backed up by the remainder. Great read.
  • Stroke of genius? No. His article is almost a perfect mirror of the process taught in college/university level critical thinking or rhetorical writing classes.  Frame the argument. Define what you're going to argue. Make your argument, attemping to avoid logical fallacies. Source and support your argument.  Jason, good article, but also - way to demonstrate that you paid attention in school! :-)  
  • Thanks for the support and kudos studentolifeUSMC!🙂
  • Thanks deadontgefloor, I appreciate the support. I'm just trying to communicate a perspective that I think is under-represented. I'm glad the though was successfully conveyed🙂
  • Win32 app     I love Windows Mobile. It has openess and configurability that iOS doesn't have, and streamlined, efficiency and security that Android doesn't have. But, here's my marker. Until SnapChat release an app on Windows mobile, it will be a dead platform. PS: I don't specifically mean just SnapChat, but all the other apps. eBay, varegesale, shpock, , forum apps, taxi apps, Natwest banking, lloyds bank, numerous other banks, nectar card, other loyalty cards, estate agent apps, and the hundreds of other tiny little apps that people want, beyond the major ones. I mention snapchat, because it's like a precursor. PPS: Win32 apps mean nothing compared to these.
  • Wow you just spoke of things I don't care at all 😛
  • You will get the fright of your life if you one day realise how many people world wide actually use those things....
  • What, Snapchat? People who have nothing better to do! I'll admit banking apps sure sound important, though I have no business with them, the rest I don't even know what they are
  • Now this is a much better article from you Jason, and I love reading your articles everytime. As for Windows on phone goes, I do agree to your point that as long as windows is there, it will also exist on phone. How can't it? all computing devices are increasingly going mobile, getting lighter, thinner, smaller or in one word going 'mobile'. Even today, if I could physically shrink a touchscreen laptop to 6 inches (throw in a sim card in there), can I really use it as I use my phone? I can make calls, chat on IM, access Facebook, listen to songs, play games, watch movies etc. So the answer is Yes!. What is it that I cannot do? There are quite a lot of apps, that only run on Adriod or iOS. That is the missing peice. How big is it? I would say massive. But the optimistic way to look at it is that this device, will start from a clean slate. Still the slate will have far more apps than current windows phones. So it will start from scratch, but still be in a better position than present Lumias. I will take in anyday. The biggest challenge though is that it can survive with less apps, it cannot survive with less or no users. Microsoft has to ensure that it has a 'critical mass' of users by the time this 'ultimate mobile device' hits the market. We are passionate fans, We will take it even if there are few rough edges here or there. But once we start moving to other paltforms, it will be tough for MS to win us back. My only hope (call it desire, wish whatever) is that it comes to my hands this year. Only problem with delay is that you loose more and more of your already negligible user base. Without a user base, there will be no future.
  • Thanks hermalnive and thanks for contributing!😎
  • The issue isn't so much "does Microsoft have a plan for a mobile platform?", but "will Microsoft continue their decades-long trend of constant abandonment of their mobile users?" This is what worries users: Microsoft's lack of devotion to the devoted. Apple survived their dark years because they were loyal to their base.  The future is mobile, and Microsoft has shown absolutely no loyalty or even affinity for their mobile base. "The saddest thing about betrayal is that it never comes from your enemies."
  • The key issue for me as an IT Pro and consumer is can Windowsphone or the ultra mobile device you can make calls with be used as daily driver to meet my needs. Yesterday I had to travel into the local town. I bought my cheap day pass via a phone app. It saved me money and was available on Android and IOS. When I got to town I used NFC payments to buy what I wanted using Android pay. NFC payments on Windowsphone are US only and limited banks despite being announced in 2012 by Microsoft. I had lunch at a sandwich shop using their app only available on Android and IOS. I then got a text from my wife asking to send some money. My bank app used to be supported on Windowsphone but that ended in 2016. Nothing I did could be done easily on Windowsphone. The poor apps ecosystem is one reason but the impression given by Microsoft is that Windowsphone has been abandoned. Unless Microsoft speak plainly rather than the obscure blog posts that have to be interpreted by journalists that impression will continue. I still love Windowsphone. I want to use it. I want to buy products in the Microsoft ecosystem. However it's simply unusable day to day unless your needs are small. My wife just uses Facebook, photos, calls and texts. She is using the Lumia 950 and it works fine for her. Anything else and you are struggling to make a day to day usage case.
  • ^^This^^
  • Solution: cash   *head explodes*
  • Of course I can carry cash. It's not about cash its about an example of a daily use case how me, and "normal people", are increasingly using mobile devices as part of their lives to access services. I could have talked about other things but in this case using cash would have meant an additional visit to a bank at a time when banks are closing branches while internet and mobile banking are moving forward.  In a situation where companies are providing free offers via apps and loyalty programmes there are advantages to consumers in using those apps.  Of course I could use cash. I could travel by horse, write letters on scrolls, and use fountain pens. Using Windowsphone should not mean being 10 years behind other consumers.
  • I have one of each generation at home: a Toshiba Pocket PC 2002, HTC Touch Dual (WinMo 6.1), HTC 8X (WP8) and a Lumia 950xl (W10M).  Besides te HTC Touch Dual that can't charge anymore because of a broken charger connector, all others are still functional :-) Can't wait to get an "untramobile PC with telephony" :-)
  • Well... I am a accountant from Romania . All our work sotware is for Windows . All the corporate software , the Office suite . All serious software runs on Windows .
    I use a Lumia with Windows because i like how it's combing with my Pc . I do not care at all that i can't have Android app for retards . Windows mobile covered all that i needed . And guess what ?
    If my phone could run full Windows 10 ... Than the smarthone will be dead .
    Imagine Alienware building Gaming Smartphones that could run GTA V . And Latitude series in your pochet . With a Thunderbolt 3 port linked to EGFX .
    You really do not get it ? Microsoft is going to rule them all with this move . And kill the PC' s in the process .
  • Stop being dreamy like Jason. Pick up a 300€ cheap laptop can it match alienware laptops or latitude? If not then how come even underpowered arm hardware will do all tht?
  • Satya Nadella's main driver mobile phone is an iPhone...death knell for WP...conversation over...it's been a good ride and I will miss my Live Tiles (the best and most differentiating feature of WP)...
  • I wonder why we don't see much talk about Tablet share, which one might consider the in between market for phone and pc, where a Windows is gaining share. Windows ARM or Cloud can also hurt Chromebooks if they are similarly priced and more capable.
  • Won't die ,and never . Cuz I trust u guys . Ok a bit slow with productions, but stable enough with os 🌹 love u MS windows phone .
  • It's totally not stable!  WP8 = stable.  W10m=not stable.  On my 950xl, Groove randomly crashes and stops playing music walking home from work.  Sometimes Groove says "Resuming..." then just simply gives up and crashes.  The phone itself randomly reboots maybe once every two days.  Uber completely stopped working and I had to completely reinstall the OS and all my apps to get Uber to work.  Outlook ocassionally gets super slow and laggy while browsing an email.  From the lock screen, sometimes the camera button launches the camera, sometimes it doesn't.  I can't have a phone that is unstable AND that also has no apps.  That's like the best of zero worlds.
  • Insider ring or production?
    Have you performed a clean install?
    Have you restored from a backup? Mine had issues, (as is/SHOULD be expected on insider fast!). However, after a clean install *for the first time NOT using a backup* all of the big issues vanished.
  • I admit some of those questions are valid, but the idea that the only way to get the phone to work is by removing months or years of work on it, by ignoring the backup, is poor technology. Personally, I've always restored my phones from backup on the rare occasions when I had to reset them.  And things worked fine afterwards.
  • Agree it isn't ideal, but if you're experiencing issues it's worth the effort. TBH the only real difference is installing apps and start screen layout - anything else should be in your one drive anyway, so less painful than you might be worried about.
  • The main thing I've lost is third party apps' content and settings.  I know, "what apps???" but there are plenty of great ones out there, and they don't always integrate with onedrive for backups.  So in those cases, it's painful to lose specifics and have to start over in an app.
  • Poor technology is the solution to all these glitches is to do a "fresh re-install". Lord, am I sick of hearing that as the solution to all these update issues.
  • It's test technology.
  • Exactly. Getting pretty sick of the whinging.
  • Whenever I reset my phones, (my Lumia 640, and even my android phone which I own), I just take note of all my apps (even just take a screenshot of the apps list), make sure all apps/documents/photos etc are backed up (To save phone storage, its generally essential to auto back them up anyways), then just completely reset the phone. No OS backup required as files are backed up on the cloud, and you have a screenshot backed up of all the apps you need to install again. Maybe I see it differently to others, but I see OS backups as cutting corners. Cut corners, and expect there to be issues down the road. Especially when its very easy to manually back up all important info, and avoid all OS issues a OS backup may save. On a laptop/desktop, if your OS was corrupt and you needed to factory reset it.. Would you create a system backup of that system's corrupt state for once you have reset it? Of course you wouldn't, it would be illogical as it would just restore all the issues you were having before. Can't see why people do it for phones. Only time I can see the phones backup being of any use, which is maybe what its original intended use was, is if you bought a new phone of the same OS, and wanted to restore your apps from your non-corrupt old phone.
  • Yep! And with "my library" on the store it's easy to run through your back-catalogue of apps/games and install only those ones you want/actually use 🙂
  • For me, it's because of the locked-down mentality with phones.  On my PC, I have full access to all my files. Anything an application can access, I have access to it as well.  On a phone, I have access to photos, music, and a handful of other content.  I don't have access to applications or their files, although I know they exist. I agree, though.  Up until a few versions of Windows ago, I would regularly (6-12 months) refresh my computer and install the programs I needed.  It's amazing how much I have on my system that I never use, so it feels good to do that.  But on a phone, where I can't properly refresh an application that doesn't automatically backup its content to the cloud, it's a fresh start.  And for medical apps, that doesn't help.
  • if you say production build is unstable, then you have got a point. But then you will also be an exception as it works fine without any problems. If you say 'insiders build' gives problems at times, then that it is what it is meant for. find out problems and fix them before going out to production.
  • Bluetooth currently sucks but everything else works fine. I did a fresh install without using a backup file and most apps crashes stopped. Big task though which sucks but that's previews for you.
  • Should've bought a L650 cuz there's no problem there.
  • So now its "Windows on phone", goalposts moved again.....
  • Hi theefman...Actually that's what it has always been. Windows on a phone. I choose to use the more descriptive language of that reality to help communicate that concept in an environment where the language around Windows phone sometimes leads people into compartmentalizing the thought to a particular iteration of the Window (on) phone vision. Sometimes when people hear the term they think Windows Mobile, or Windows Phone or Windows 10 Mobile. Windows phone, as Windows on phone, is not restricted to a particular iteration of the vision. So no, not moving the goal posts, using language that breaks the concept down into language that better describes the reality. Thanks for jumping in.
  • Absolutely - this has been pretty clearly the vision for windows phone for years now and the current implementation of 'continuum' has always seemed to me nothing like an endpoint. It's a promising glimpse of the eventual, total merge of one Windows for all devices that is responsive to any screensize or other interactive methods (like VR and AR). Windows phone can't die unless Windows dies.
  • Adam, "Windows can't die because it died over a half decade ago"  (fixed for correctness, anything else is fantasyland, it can't die twice)  You think you had Steve Jobs getting rehired to say... the Mac ain't dead, it can still beat Windows?   Even MS employees moved on many years ago.
  • Windows on phone rose and fell but never died.... Oh so it's in a coma right now lols Well i hope it wakes up soon, or it's time to DNR.
  • Well consider Windows has been on a phone device since 2003 Windows Molbile/Windows phone has been around alot longer than IOS or Android and it's a good bet we will always have some options to run some type of Windows OS on a phone.
  • Windows ce kernel last until wp7.x, i guess..
  • Long live Windows on mobile devices. I switched from Lumia 950 XL to iPhone 7 a couple weeks ago but I am ready to switch back to mobile Windows if something interesting (device, or system with apps) will appear on Windows mobile scene !
  • I switched to an iPhone 7 a couple months ago after years with a Windows Phone. I really miss the OS and like you I hope they produce something interesting in the near future.
  • I switched to a 7plus a few months back after being on WP since 2009. Had MS released a 960XL they likely would have kept me but the 950XL (i got it at launch) was feeling old and slow.
  • My mine phone is 950.
    It is so much better than iPhone 7 (my work phone provided company).
    1. Better/bigger screen
    2. bigger/replacable battery
    3. SD card slot
    4. much better camera
    5. faster charging time
    6. wireless charging support
    7. dedicated camera button
    8. continuum support
    9. Replacable cover (Mozo are great) The list can go on and on.
    The bottom line is 950 is just a better phone run Perhaps app store can improve, but in my case I have all apps I need and use: banking, FB, Train/Tube, office, Viber, WhatsApp.
    No intention to change my Windows phone any time soon.
  • And all the apps I relied on on the 950 get pulled from store, one after the other. Full windows on phone will not remedy that situation in any way. Sadly, it's dead. I just cannot yet decide on the replacement :(
  • And all the apps I relied on on the 950 get pulled from store, one after the other. Full windows on phone will not remedy that situation in any way. Sadly, it's dead. I just cannot yet decide on the replacement :(
  • Yep.
  • I find this too - that when you compare the features you like but often don't think about, like fast charging and wireless charging, instantly upgradable memory, things look pretty good alongside the competition.  And you get updates.
  • FX12, apple gets updates just as regularly as the windows phones. Plus the apps to make the phone ore useful. I do agree with the wireless charging and better camera on the Lumia however. Just that on WP/M I was missing ALOT of the apps I use regularly on IOS. Too bad, I LOVED my 1020. It was awesome. Mut Microsoft decided that I was not important as a 1020 owner and screwed us around. NO pathway to 10m, so bye bye to windows phone. But in hindsight, its great, I now have access to any app I want to use.
  • Agree.
  • I have a Lumia 950 and iPhone so here is my response to that: 1. Better/bigger screen - Big deal when there isn't much to use the screen for.
    2. bigger/replacable battery - Again, big deal as battery isn't an issue on WP as there isn't much to use it for.
    3. SD card slot - See above.
    4. much better camera - The CONSTANT crashes and annoyances make whatever preceived "much" better camera you see invalid.
    5. faster charging time - This is true
    6. wireless charging support - This is true
    7. dedicated camera button - This is true
    8. continuum support - This is worthless to 99.9% of people
    9. Replacable cover (Mozo are great) - This is true but I appreciate the build quality of the iPhone.  With the Lumia 950 you are essentially doing MS' job by making the phone aesthetically appealing while with the iPhone people generally look for covers that change very little about the aesthetics of the phone.
  • I really hope this strategy of an ultra mobile surface pc works. My biggest concern (and most people's) is that the usual app gap issue (windows 32 programs in emulation are irrelevant here) while using the device as a phone. Hopefully by the time the device ia released apps will be much less important than what they are still perceived as being. This being said this surface mobile pc should be perfect 👌 for professionals who don't care about Snapchat and other apps other people view as important. I will be first in line to get my surface mobile pc
  • professionals care abt tons of enterprise related apps which again are not on W10M
  • Examples please? Are teh app avaable on full W10?
  • Citrix worx or secure hub. Available on w10m but severely lagging in features. Not to mention many of the MS apps not on w10m but on ios and Android. Like Sway
  • I'd have to agree with 'theefman': those goal posts, they are a' movin', aren't they? 'Windows on phone' or 'Windows on ARM w/cellular connectivity' is a different argument than, 'There will be new devices this year or next year running Windows 10 Mobile'.    'Windows on ARM' will be a thing eventually, in the long run, but who knows where we'll all be in four, six, seven years from now, or where Google or Apple will be in the same amount of time?  From a consumer stand point, Windows on phones, is basically dead, for now.
  • So you are arguing against the longevity of Windows on a phone yet Windows has been on a phone in different iterations since 2003 much longer than IOS or Android? I think alot of us just want something other than IOS or Android and as long as Microsoft keeps on delivering an alternative for us we will be interested. I'm not stuck on WP 7-WP- WP8-WM 10. MS has been inthe mobile games much longer than Google or Apple. X86 on a phone is hardly irrelevent here, I've been using small windows tablets for years, 7-8 inch tablets and have run ALOT of Win32 programs on them so it is pretty easy for me to see the viability of running these types of programs on a 6-7 inch phone running a full version of Windows.
  • "From a consumer stand point,"   does that not also move the goal posts? Moreover, your argument further doesn't make sense because what if I say, "iOS on phone" is a different argument than, 'There will be new devices this year or next year running iOS 7."  Yeah, a newer version may come out, but that doesn't mean its brand new or that its dead until that occurs.
  • Then are iOS and Android present on tablets and desktops too? And I can use the apps I have on all my devices with these operating systems? Mr Ward is not denying that Windows on phones was not successful but that Microsoft is working on the unification of Windows on all devices, mobile and stationary alike.
  • From this consumer's standpoint I'll be dead by the time this gets figured out. I'm 64 years old. My Trophy (7), 928 (8) and Surface RT (rt) have eaten up 6 years of my dwindling lifespan!
    I'm sure on my deathbed I'll see another picture of the lovely Dona Sarkar promising me the perfect Windows device in the afterlife. 😞 Maybe that Pixel is worth a look at this stage.
  • Well, I for one hope you live longer than the next couple of years.
  • I just need something other than IOS or Andrord, I HATE both of those OS's and the homescreens are completely useless. I do love WM and still enjoy my 950. People do not understand how powerful and usefull live tiles are, took me about 15 mins to setup my homescreen so I get tons of info by just looking at my screen. I just can't believe in 2017 people prefer thse horrible static icon home screen that pretty much do nothing but stare at you. I will be fine with a Surface Phone able to run X86 programs and UWP's as long as the Front Facing UI and interaction is pretty similar to WM 10, it really could be a category of device able to escape the app gap and constant turnover of the mobile industry. A Sim enabled pocket PC in the Windows 10 ecosystem would trasncend any fickle mobile support model and be usefull for years on end.
  • Android has truly Live Tiles. Microsoft's gimped version is useless in comparison. No interactivity and I assume most are still not Chaseable. Not sure how randomly flipping information with no way to act on it is more useful than a fully interactive tile. Live Tiles are a terrible experience, there is a reason Android developers don't make such simple widgets and why Live Tiles didn't take the world by storm.
  • I mean, there's a lot of truth to that.. Granted, we all know that lives tiles would've advanced much further by now, and I blame that on WP's presence in the market. There's nothing MS can't make a WM device do, that an android device does (and most likely better), MS just chooses not to put much effort into WP... But, I think they are tired of being expected to give WP effort, and I think they just want to focus on one OS that truly runs on every device... Something tells me that WOA, on a mobile device, would get much more attention from MS, and inherently have much more functionality by relation. This will probably be the first time WM saw feature parity with iDroid.
  • There he is. Happy Android Man, who has nothing better to do than come around and bash what he doesn't like.
  • Was all Windows until Microsoft blew it. I still use Windows 10 on all my PCs. Anyways, I am just calling out this person trying to say that Android is just static icons. I guess making stuff up is the only way you can justify sticking with Windows Mobile.
  • Here's how I justify it. I like it.  All of your constant bashing isn't going to change that.  Is your goal to justify your own purchase to yourself or will you not rest until you bashed Windows and convinced a horde of people to switch?  Android people make stuff up, too.  No, Android has not had a Continuum like feature for two generations of their OS.  They *STILL* only scale what's on the phone to be bigger on the screen.  There is not another version with more features available one docked to a larget screen and full keyboard. That's some Android made up stuff.  Also when someone says what they like about Windows, they don't need to be told that Android can (sorta) do it too.  If they both do it and the person likes Windows, they like Windows. I'm not sure why this is such a personal thing for you.  Enjoy what you enjoy.  Let others enjoy what they enjoy.  I know...it's a pipe dream and I expect that you'll bash until you break your keyboard.  FYI - my Android IS static icons because Widgets suck up the battery life at a ridiculous pace.
  • Sounds like you chose a crummy Android device if widgets kill your battery. I don't have any issues with widgets and battery life on my Nexus 6. Pokemon Go on the other hand...
  • According to you it's only sales that count, so I chose a decent one. Galaxy sells more than Nexus, so in bleached logic the market has spoken and Samsung is superior.
  • I very well may buy the GS8+ to replace my Nexus 6. That phone is looking amazing.
  • Now u r just like Jason. Repetitive with no content
  • Don't see why you should be downvoted you speak the truth.
  • It's not "Dead." It's more like Leo DiCaprio in The Revenant. Dragging its beaten, broken, sliced, bloodied body across the frigid snow, desperate to survive. As long as builds keep coming, it isn't "Dead."
  • Thanks for the analogy kingtigre. We know how that movie, The Revenant, progressed. DiCaprio's character got past the dragging of a beaten body through the forest to actually recovering strength and health and getting victory I've this enemy!😉 Also I gave other examples in addition to continued build that denote that Windows on phone is alive. Thanks for the contribution🙂!
  • The movie you watched was 'Arrival', 'The Arrival' is a 1996 alien flick with Charlie Sheen.
  • It's more like Schrödinger phone being dead and alive at the same time
  • I like that analogy. But Scrödinger's cat is dead or alive until observed. And the observable activity that I presented about Windows on phone, even eliminating the as yet to be seen full Windows on phone, reveals that it is indeed alive.🙂
  • My fear is that Windows on ARM will leave a great percentage of us Windows on Mobile platform behind. It will probably be more expensive, geared more to business customers and more difficult ot learn to use than a Windows on Mobile device. Ms isn't supporting Windows on Mobile very welll now, what will it do for us when Windows on ARM comes along. Glad I have my iPhone 6s Plus to carry me through this next transition.
  • No no no. Microsoft would never leave it's current loyal customers behind on a dead end platform or OS to pursue it's next attempt at cracking the mobile market.......
  • history doesnt agree with you ;)
  • he was being sarcastic
  • Some of the newer wsheep wont understand that sarcasm
  • I deem it also very likely. It is a shame that the latest Windows on real phones was again a failure. But Windows will hopefully survive and maybe we get other mobile devices in the future; it would be nice when current phones benefit from this but I am not expecting it.
  • As long as MS not saying a word about surface phone it is nonexisting, period. Therefore "windows on phone" is really dead. I will start believing in MS if mr Myerson or mr Panay will stand out saying "we got a great windows on phone device in the pipeline". Until then Phone is dead, just what it has been since mr Myerson, decleared "it sux"👌
  • Its on a life support stage ryt now.
  • No, it was on life support and dead man walking 7 years ago.... now its buried next to Elvis and its been so long even the worms lost interest in its body.   MS personnel don't use WP and even those users aren't coming back.   The fat lady sang her tune 5 years ago, if not longer.  
  • I find it funny that Dan just had a podcast where he said windows phone is basically dead. Every week there's articles about how windows phone is not dead, and they write paragraph upon paragraph defending windows phone to try and give the fans just a little glimmer of hope of what's just beyond the horizon (and it's been going on for years). If that is something you need to do to give people hope about windows phone, then the platform is dead. I've had windows phones for years and bought the Lumia 950 when it came out and still have it, but I'm switching to Android soon and I know Microsoft won't announce anything at build to deter me. I've also been a fan of this site for years, but now this place is becoming a circle-jerk of people in denial and I can't stand it.
  • WP/WM as we know it today is most definitely dead.
    Whether a new version makes a come back is yet to be seen but as of February 2017, she's as dead as a dodo.
  • You are so right friend... Same here
  • +1 I was looking for a comment that called this out. WC podcast saying windows mobile is dead followed by an article 2 days later, on the same site, titled 'not dead.' Wtf
  • It's sad that, at least at this given moment, you are giving MS more of your support by purchasing 3rd party hardware and using their services on those devices than by purchasing a Lumia and using their less than stellar services on their 1st party devices. MS will never have successful hardware if they don't support it themselves.  I know they walk the line between enterprise and consumer products but, in the eyes of your average consumer, they need to support their consumer products.  RT, Zune, Lumia, Band - too many products were not supported fully and/or support was dropped too quickly. One major differentiating factor with Lumia devices is Nokia truly provided unique experiences, product recognition, and support.  I just don't see that again...ever.  MS is too busy relying on 3rd party developers and hardware manufacturers to pick up their slack.  They then rely on their users to pick up their slack to flesh out their OS'.  I just don't agree with any of it anymore. I love all of my MS products...unfortunately, I love them more than they do. It doesn't matter what they come out with...it really doesn't.  Is your average consumer even going to understand what the hell it is?  MS is going in so many different directions with an OS that really isn't working completely on anything other than PCs as of right now. The "unified platform" seems to have had the exact opposite affect on every device they sell.  The ONLY saving grace has been the "Play Anywhere" feature.
  • It's developers' fault too because they choose to not develope app for this platform, they could just give a beta app and see how the people would have reacted, just like Facebook and Instagram did..
  • It's not that easy since developers must allocate time and resources to develop for a platform which won't give them profits. I think the only thing which could have saved Windows Mobile would be project Astoria (emulating android on Windows) which could have driven sales and critical mass for developers to start thinking ok targeting Windows again
  • I didn't say is easy, they could try and see most people complain about app gape, they those app could at least be in beta, from there would know if it is platform or just developers' are just don't care.. Mind you windows phone apps most started in beta now there are cool apps might be few but at least are good enough
  • Who in their right mind could blame developers? MS isn't even bringing their A game to the Windows Mobile platform - and this is since Day 1!
    How could consumers and developers take WM seriously when MS doesn't?
  • Why don't u tell that to MS which has exclusive apps on ios but not yet on W10M
  • I don't blame the developers, specifically.  Maybe I should blame Microsoft for being late to the mobile world, or just being slow to embrace it. I don't know, but I do hate how things are now. Apple got things started with their iPhone. Coding for that took awhile but it was available pretty shortly afterwards. Then Android flashed to the scene and pretty much stole the show. Most are flocking to Android now, as if there were 1000 virgins awaiting for people's embrace. I don't blame any company or any one person, or a collection of people. My frustration is with, "one code rules them all". There is code for everything, but they can't be made the same. There is code for millions of devices but they can't communicate together. There are restrictions for doing something on my device because I have a Windows device.  I know it's a bad thing to compare Apples to Water Bottles, but why can't MY​ device be more like my car? My car is not limited to only one set of tires or manufacturer. I can go out a pick any tire I want. I can have 4 different kinds if I wish (and I have before ). Windshield wipers, radio, seat cushions, vinyl or leather, these are my choices. Right now, it's either Android or iPhone. Is the tech world so different than the automotive industry?
  • How is it developers fault that Microsoft couldn't create a compelling platform? This is all on Microsoft.
  • To be fair, even if Microsoft created the perfect phone that did everything including curing every ailment in this entire world, people wouldn't buy it because it wouldn't have the apps (and no Android emulation wouldn't cut it), thus developers won't make apps, because there aren't the users, because there aren't the apps, because there aren't the users... and so the circle continues. Microsoft were late to the game and they should be given stern looks for that, but beyond that, developers have consistently said "We aren't making the apps due to low marketshare". Even if Microsoft gave every single person in the world a free Windows phone, developers STILL wouldn't make apps for the platform because "Oh, the users still have their iPhone or Android to use the app on". I'm sorry but at this point I can't blame Microsoft. I will fully blame them for earlier misdeamours but now it's all on the developers as far as I'm concerned. Doesn't matter how easy it is to develop for Windows Phone. It could literally be push 1 button and a perfectly coded bug-free app featuring more features than the iOS/Android counterparts would be released, and make it free, developers STILL wouldn't do it, because it's 1 click too many.
  • Do you blame developers for not creating WebOS, Symbian, Ubuntu and BBOS apps? It isn't personal. Why should they single out Microsoft's failed platform and not any of the others? This is solely on Microsoft. Not only were they a bit late, which wouldn't have been a big deal on its own, they also didn't bring what the market needed. A locked down, feature lacking platform couldn't compete...at all. It is all on Microsoft. They were no so late that is was impossible to gain traction. It probably is now.
  • Not if you build a phone that is so new and impresses consumers so greatly that they begin to, in great numbers, converse about and start buying it. If some of the rumers are true, that its going to be a platform with a phone in it and it may have more than one screen, well that can be a game changer. And who wouldnt want to risk a little time building apps for it.
  • Microsoft won't be the only one with a folding screen device and almost certainly won't be the first. I agree though, Microsoft needs something absolutely revolutionary like the iPhone in 2007, otherwise it will fail. Just like the iPhone wasn't running OSX, something revolutionary isn't going to be running Windows. Windows isn't revolutionary. It is holding Microsoft back.
  • I think they need apps and games. They have great first party games that could have been on Windows Phone all along. Instead, they ignored us and their platform. Almost anything at this point will be too little too late. It would take an astronomical undertaking to get new users to WM and no matter what they do, existing (and primarily prior users) will just know that the "next big thing" will replace the current offering that is quickly being swept under the rug. Windows 7 was catching in, then 7.5 left many pissed. Then WP8 left more users pissed. And now WM10. It's been a slow degradation of quality, efficient offerings each time. Now we are led to believe that THIS is the time MS will get their crap together. A lot of optimists that exist these days are semi-newer users. At least that's my opinion. I've been here since the beginning (reluctantly) and have had my heart broke over and over. I am still holding on to some hope but why? If MS will have to change so much to be successful in the mobile sector then I am not even sure I want to be a part of that. Gears of War, Forza, Viva Piñata, Crack down, Banjo, Alan Wake - all of these franchises could have instilled confidence and excitement and still could. Instead we are left with live tiles and a removal back cover.
  • You love this "revolutionary" line. You repeat it often. While it is one of your more clever bashes, it's not rooted in reality. Surface, as an example, was a "revolution" based entirely on hardware and software, as you say "from the past". Basic lesson 1. These things have multiple variables. To obsess about one thing is to miss the entire story. Basic lesson 2. Your perspective doesn't equal universal truth. Basic lesson 3. Repeating the sane things over and over doesn't make them true.
  • The Surface wasn't a revolution. It is just another ultrabook. It barely had any impact on the market. Microsoft has made a few bucks on it, but it isn't a revolution. This far in, the iPhone had destroyed everything before it and completely changed the market. That is a revolution.
  • You are adept at ignoring anything that doesn't support your mission. Surface is "just another ultrabook", is kind of a joke in simplicity. The 2-in-1 segment was created or at least legitimized by Surface. To say it has "barely any impact on the market" means you are looking at the market with a biased lens. Even the iPad Pro is following along in ditto fashion.
  • http://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10s-global-growth-slowed-down-dram... It doesn't look like a revolution for Windows 10 at all. Quite the opposite. The iPad Pro isn't a Surface clone. If Apple took the MacBook Air and made the keyboard detachable, added a touchscreen and grafted touch onto OSX, that would be a Surface clone. That isn't what they did. iPad Pro is just a larger iPad with pen support. Surface competes with MacBook, not iPad.
  • One word:
    Lol 😁
  • That's three words.
  • Survivor series, I love my Windows Phone, #WindowsPhoneIsNotDead
  • It may not be dead...but the reasons to keep hope alive are becoming less and less.
  • Really? As the os matures I would argue the reasons grow personally. Apps keep improving, the os is more stable, is this still about Snapchat lol? Updates continue, thankfully my phone is a Lumia 650 so have not spent too much. Key concern is what happens to mobile when full 10 runs on arm. That may leave a bad taste in mouth as mobile may get abandoned. But, that's a bit away.
  • "apps keep improving" 😨
  • Yes, the apps I use keep getting better. OneNote, storm of wars, edge, word, these keep improving. I don't need Snapchat, I use Facebook on browser as its a notorious battery killer, there is no app that I don't have that I would want. Only app that I struggle with is mail it can continue to be erratic.
  • That's the problem Windows on ARM will once again reset the user base...making it the fourth or fifth time in Windows Phone/Mobile OS' history since the beginning. I enjoy my 950 if it wasn't for the absolutely HORRIFIC BATTERY I would enjoy it that much more...I love the camera. At some point reality has fo be faced and all of us as Windows Mobile/Phone/10 users are all walking down a dead end path...as bleak as it sounds it is the honest truth. As a looong time fanguy of MS...the phone has lost...everything else though...I am still all in, even love my Band 2!
  • For God sake! It's not dead. I'm using it everyday. In future, I don't know, but now is alive.
  • If it's not dead then put some focus on it rather than leaving out
  • Is the author trying to convince you or himself?
  • Himself. That's Jason's article content for you :)
  • Himself I think. It's dead. At .3% market share, it's not a question. This is not something for debate. It's like asking if HD DVD is dead. I can still find HD DVD's and players. They technically work, but they are dead. Just because MS is pushing updates doesn't make it alive. They are only updating Windows Mobile 10 because it shares the same core and can be easily done. Usuaing Microsoft employees public speak for signs of life with this platform is hardly a good argument. What else are they going to say? They often speak glowingly about something and then abandon it shortly after.
  • So you didn't read the article either.
  • Semantics. Windows 10 Mobile is for sure dying, but that isn't what this article is about. This article is about WoA or whatever comes next. We don't know about that, all we know is W10M won't be around much longer. RS3 is rumored to be the last update and then it is maintenance releases after. Other Microsoft employees haven't even promised that much.
  • Saying "Semantics" doesn't make it true.  The article is about Windows running on phones.  That's not dead.  Your point would be like saying iPhone 5 is dead because iPhone 8 is coming.  Not true.
  • He is using Semantics for sure. He doesn't want to say that Windows 10 Mobile is dead, which it almost certainly is. WoA may be available for some phone like devices in the future, but we have not heard anything specific from Microsoft. It is another reboot, although this one won't be so bad as UWP will probably still be supported. It would be really cool if Microsoft allowed manufacturers to create their own CShell for mobile devices. They could differentiate themselves from Android by separating updates from the shell and taking care of updates directly. It would give manufacturers a reason to use Windows on their phones and give them the ability to differentiate their device.
  • Hi bleached I don't want to say Windows 10 Mobile dead, because like you, I don't believe it is. By your own admission "almost certainly is (dead)...means alive. 😉 Alive and dead are absolute states. It one or the other. 🙂 Now in the piece I give very detailed reasons why I believe Windows on phone as well as it's current iteration Windows 10 Mobile is alive. I also state that I believe the course of Windows on phone will see Windows 10 Mobile subsumed into WoA and may no longer persist just as Pocket PC led to Windows Mobile which led to Windows Phone which led to Windows 10 Mobile; all gave way to the next iteration. So Windows 10 Mobile MAY which may be put to pasture 😄 when WoA comes om the scene. There are other options for it however, as Zac delves into in one of his pieces and mention on the recent podcast. W10M could be kept around as a low end option.🙂
  • Hi In fla. Actually I'm sharing a broader view of the topic than the "share is down, developers won't support, people are leaving the platform" narrative that you find echoed virtually everywhere else. Whether we agree with Microsoft or not, or feel their strategy will work...they have one. I write that story, while acknowledging the context of the bad position in mobile.
  • Great artical Jason! Love the term "Windows on Phone" instead of "Windows Phone". Friends always ask me why I stick with Windows because there are no apps for that phone. I say this is true but most websites are optimized for mobile devices, I tell them "can you put a website link on your home screen for quick access." Of course they can't because they don't have "Windows on Phone"! I'll take Live Tiles or Widgets anyday. So go ahead & buy your iPhones & Galaxies and play your Pokemon Go because that is all you can see is more apps. With Windows, I can see the future!
  • Any web browser on Android can pin any website to the home screen. Same with Safari on iPhone; that's literally how the pre-App Store iPhone worked. 
  • Exactly, this has been available for a long time on iOS and Android. There is even a spec for websites to provide an iOS friendly icon for these links.
  • You're joking, right? #alternativeFacts, lol
  • ROTFL you realize the very first iPhone worked like this, right? I guess you're just the typical ignorant "Windows on Phone" user.
  • This came from both an iPhone user & a Galaxy user standing side by side. They were amazed I could do it on my 950. Don't you worry, I went back and enlightened both of those "typical ignorant iPhone & Galaxy users." They are both happy now.
  • I'm not denying there are ignorant iPhone and Galaxy users, I'm just saying that it's ridiculous to claim that iOS and Android users can't do a simple thing like pinning websites to your home screen, that's all. :)
  • You may not like the future...
  • ROFL
  • You're welcome MrGecko and thank you! Windows on phone certainly more accurately communicates Microsoft's vision I think.😎
  • WM10 / Windows on Phone / Windows Phone is not d-e-d... because I'm still developing apps for it!
  • please let us know what you developing so if by chance i can use your app I will. and please make it so i can pay to remove adds. Theres alot of dead apps id love to pay to remove the adds but developers just abandon them to adds.
  • I agree. I will gladly make a purchase to remove ads.
  • I totally agree with that. No ads... just in-app purchases to unlock additional functionality. My upcoming app is called Modern Ledger, and it will be a UWP so it will be available on WM10 and W10. Its an app to help manage finances quickly. Hopefully that little plug for my app doesn't violate forum rules :p.
  • I was forced by MS to leave Windows Phone 2 years ago. Has the app gap really increased so much that you are now resorting to using just any app that you can find? I don't know any of dbam987's apps, but your comment reads like "please make an app. I don't care what the app does, i just want an app"
  • Thanks for writing this piece. I apreciate what information we can get even if it is an informed best guess. Been with windows phone since (http://www.pocketpccentral.net/audvthera.htm). Currently 950 and 950XL in my family. Hoping to get by with those until the next generation, whatever that is.
  • You're welcome William and thank you!
  • Sorry for commenting here, but will you guys fix your UWP app on mobile? It is way more buggy on my 950xl than it is on pc or even previous versions on mobile.
  • Its slow on my pc.
  • We can all dream. I hope windows phone survives in one shape of another, the thought of having to use android or iOS is not something I am looking forward to. Although with MS giving all their love to those to platforms, I fear for the worst.
  • Yep its not dead, but I'm waiting for the apps to come, so I use android when I need to do anything while I wait, nougat is pretty good mind
  • Viva la Microsoft!
  • I'm with windows phone since day 1, but seriously considering buying other OS. current microsoft CEO is killing this platform. no body can say different. not even you
  • People can say whatever they want. Whether you believe or accept it, is your choice. :)  
  • The truth man. The truth . Microsoft is kiliing this platform.
  • fake news. 
  • Real news
  • back to pocket pc!
  • I get lost by all these articles. What was it about again. Is it dead or not, will we get a surface "phone" or not. Just tell us.
  • for something thats not dead it sure does not move too much ... and whats that strangely sweet smell? lets just hold our collective breaths for another few years and pretend there is actually any strategy in microsofts "mobile strategy" ...
  • You want a mature discussion and then proceed to talk about aliens in movies. Sorry, ya lost me.
  • It's simple, it was an analogy to show the importance of a common understanding of concepts and terms. Hope that clarifies it for you.👍🏿
  • So, MS wanted me to share my "Microsoft Story" with them for 500 rewards points.  So I did.  And now I share it with you.
     
    “I bought my first smartphone when WM7 was first released.  I suffered through the transition to WM8.  And I welcomed WM10 with open arms--finally, this was everything I wanted.  MS was doing great work making development for the platform easy for those who already managed projects on iOS and Android.  Things were great.
     
    But then, MS bought Nokia's phone division.  Wait, what?  I was a bit concerned, but then I thought, well MS can drop the feature phone stuff and concentrate on delivering market-leading hardware. 
     
    But then, one night, I awoke from a dream... Who was this in my bedroom?  Why, it was Microsoft!  Microsoft, I said, what are you doing here?
     
    And then Microsoft pulled back the sheets, stepped up on the mattress, dropped its pants and squatted.  Grunting ensued.  And I laid there, frozen.  I knew in my mind what was happening, but I could not accept the reality.  I heard myself saying, no, Microsoft, stop it.  No.  But Microsoft didn't stop.  Microsoft didn't stop until it filled my entire bed with s*t.  It s*t the bed so hard the wooden slats holding the mattress bowed and cracked. Jagged splinters stabbed the floor under the bed with such force they threw up glowing embers. 
     
    Having epically s*t the bed, Microsoft pulled up its pants and climbed down.  I started to cry.  Why, Microsoft?  I loved you.  I endured the ridicule of the iPhone and Android fanbois.  I would point out how WP was better in this respect or that respect when my friends complained about their smartphones.  I stuck by you in the worst of times... why would you do this to me.
     
    And Microsoft turned around and faced me.  Raising a single middle finger, MS said I'd get my surface phone in 2018 and I'd take it.  I'd take it like the b*tch I was.
     
    And MS was right.  MS had turned me out as its b*tch. 
     
    I still love MS.  I guess I always will.  But I will never forgive MS for what it did to me.  I will never forgive. 
     
    Now give me my f*king 500 bonus points, you a*holes. “
  • Omfg! Thanks for sharing, laughing my ass off here. 😆
  • Haha, I'm guessing that this Story will not end up in one of their ads. 😂
  • Lol
  • so, i see you used imagery, but didn't actually give the real-life events that inspired it. what did MS do that supposedly was so terrible to you? did they not perform magic and finish a bunch of R&D fast enough for you? they didn't simply just copy & paste android's work?
  • Funny how many people haven't read the article. Just the headline and commented. Nice article.
  • Isn't that what most people do? They say the kids now have an 8 second attention span.
  • Thanks for the support Richard. Hopefully, those who habitually don't read will develop a more constructive, mature and informed (by reading what they've chosen to comment on) approach. I welcome great discussion! Even if people disagree, reading the content and intelligently presenting an opposing view is welcome and best represents an individuals character and intellect. Thanks again for your support!🙂
  • So...I get the part where you have to take stance as a PR agency.also,there is that relentless market share part.buy saying that a platform will live,after they failed to fix some comon issues,like for example calendar live tile goinh blank,after 7 official releases I think is well,you fill the blank.i had xperia x1,520 920 930 950.minus the win 6.5 which was pain to work with,best experience i had with lumia 920 on win 8.0.the platform is not dead,it is just getting worse.they need some big change og user experience if they plan to live on....
  • Might not be dead but it`s not going places anytime soon ... few days ago my wife got a free Android phone 6.0.1 Galaxy J7 .... to be fair I still prefer my Lumia 950 but i have to some degree ... but apps like Facebook are just plain terrible .. it takes 10-15 seconds to load an a 950 while any decent Android phone loads that app almost instantly ..
    Netflix app has hickups from time to time ... just can`t recommend this platform to anyone in it`s current state...
  • seeing is believing and its getting hard to believe, im on the verge of taking a break until what ever Jason Ward is describing comes to fruition.
  • "almost couldn't look worst"
  • "almost couldn't look worst"
  • In its current form, yes it is dead.
  • My primary mobile telephony iteration is a Microsoft Lumia 950XL Dual SIM running Insider Release Preview builds of Windows 10 Mobile. Just prior was an ICON, which is currently my test device running Insider Fast Preview builds, and before that an HTC One (not Win 10 compatible). I've yet to find this so called application gap so many speak of since none can provide sustenance to that claim. I've yet to experience any such catastrophic platform, app or OS failures outside of the "it's expected" that wasn't recoverable or that so impacted my usage I would want to go out and get an Android or Apple phone. These will continue to work fine and get updates and upgrades until it is time to step up and into the next iteration tied to the Surface name, or not. It isn't loyalty, it is practicality for my usage and needs. To each their own.
  • Yeah and neither is BB10, Symbian and Elvis.
    And like all of those, there are people with the most outlandish theories about their "not dead lives". WP not being that is the least plausible of all though. I don't know what Jason is smoking but I want some of that. The trips are clearly out of this world.
  • 👍🏾
  • What do you think the reason from Microsoft to focus on developing their applications and providing the services on other platforms and ignoring their own platform?
  • Because they will never be successful in the current mobile world with their Windows platform. Nadella knows this, so he concentrated on keeping their services relevant. What else could they do?
  • since when do they ignore their own platform?
  • Why do you think most of Microsoft employees use non-windows 10 mobile? Even Satya Nadella doesn't use it?
  • His imgination.
  • As other people are saying, you are just moving the goalposts. Windows 10 Mobile is dead. There is no new hardware in sight and rumor is RS3 will be the last major update with only maintenance updates in 2018. Windows on ARM is still an unknown. Will it be available on devices
  • smaller than 6"?
  • Hi bleached though OEM support is by no means blockbuster at the moment, "no new hardware in sight" shouldn't be limited to first party devices. We admittedly are waiting and hoping for a Microsoft device soon, but the HP Elite x3, the Alcatel Pro and the recent Panasonic phones are all devices that are relatively recently releases that inject "fresh blood" in the platform in the absence of first-party devices. This may not apply to you, but I believe the legacy of Lumias nearly 100% dominance of the platform has shaped the minds of many fans to exclude third-party devices from the equation when we think of "new Windows phones", since most of us sought, bought and only cared about first-party devices. Microsoft clearly has put more weight on partners at this point in their strategy, admittedly not to the level of success they and we would hope. Still, I think it wise for all of us to take a more accepting perspective of partner devices. Thanks for the input🙂
  • I enjoy reading Jason's articles, very informative and insightful. I like most of the comments afterwards, very entertaining.
  • Thanks McGowne😎
  • Jason's articles are getting beyond tiresome. At one point he wrote a series of articles that all smartphones are dead and will be replaced by bots. But now magically for this article he says Windows Phone will never die and moves the goal post to that it will live as Windows on a Phone.  These articles are nothing but click bait articles trying to give false hope to Windows Phone fans who still think that Microsoft can make a miraculous comeback in Mobile. 
  • This ^
  • are technically this article doesn't contradict that one if you understand his arguments. now, if you just read titles or the openings or just skim it real quick... well...
  • Hi Pericle I think you're getting my pieces confused. I wrote a series of articles title Smartphones are dead (The link is above at the end of the article by the way.) In that series I claim that the iteration focused smartphone paradigm perpetuated by Apple/Android will be evolved by Microsoft's Ultramobile PC. I never said bots will replace smartphones. You can check out my AI, bots and canvases series where I claim that the current warehouse of apps ecosystem will be supplanted by AI as a UI and many types of apps (not smartphones) would be replaced by bots. Of course the mobility of experiences facilitated by the cloud reduces the dependency on a particular device as experiences transition throughout the day to a family of devices where AI and bots will remain consistent with a persons digital experiences as other devices pick up where another leaves off. So, no there is no moving of the goal posts, no Magic, just a consistent narrative going back to the 2015 piece I wrote and referenced here, continued in a number of pieces including my Windows phone isn't dead series. Also, since I presented a well thought out systematic and supported argument for my thesis, rather than general criticisms that don't refute those points I posit, a point by point intelligently presented rebuttal may better serve to support your position. Thanks for participating!👍🏿
  • Satya Nadella mentioned building the ultimate mobile device. That's proof enough for me that they have a strategy, and is working on it. Surface looked dead after that $1 billion write off. Then SP3 arrived, and I bought one and loved it. Bought a second one for my gf, and my sister also bought one. Then I bought the Surface Book and have my nephew the SP3, and he loves it too. Just got my Surface Studio, and I love it. Had Lumia from the start, then 920, 1040, icon, 950xl, now Elite x3. Whatever the next one is, I'll probably get it too. Dead for non users. But if you use it, it isn't dead.
  • I don't think Windows Mobile is dead, it just smells funny. Nobody mentions Microsofts new adventure with the Windows Cloud version. It would not surprise me if Redmond is using this as a Trojan Horse to regain some market share for their mobile branch. How? Simple. Just imagine that the Windows Cloud version would be totally free. The only limitation is that it can only run apps from the store. This could spark some new activity in app developing and might increase the number of UWP apps in the store. And guess what? Windows mobile might just benefit from that. By promoting Windows Cloud, Microsoft might pave the way for Mobile Revival.
  • Great article.  I have an S7 Edge, but keep going back to my 950.  There are tthings  you can do on a windows phone you just can't on an Android or IPhone.  One thing I really like is I can read and reply to a text message using Cortana without ever touching the phone.  Really handy when you get a text while in the shower lol.   My 950 just seems a lot more intuitive than the S7 edge.  Granted, the build quality and overall looks of the Edge may be better than that of the 950, but I just like the way Windows mobile works.    
  • Siri can read text messages to you as well, and you can respond using Siri. So yeah. But as far as the way WM works, I can agree that WM can be attractive from a UI standpoint.
  • I've been using voice commands for years to read and reply to text messages on iOS.
  • Cortana worked well on W8.1 but is an absolute joke now on WM10, the only disappointment with it now is I can't turn it off and do away with it completely
  • Agreed, Cortana is terrible since 10, though it wasn't that great on 8.1 in Australia either.
  • Thanks tmoore71. Appreciate the support!😎 Thanks for the input👍🏿
  • I've been using WP since WP8. I love MS ecosystem, having to use one email account for all your devices is a bliss. I would hate to go back to Android or iPhone. I love my Lumia 950xl and I do hope for MS to get Windows on phone right. I do use continuum at work all the time and I love it.
  • The lack of app Support was and still is one if not the problem. I personally do not miss out for my use but I am the exception. I am told the app is dying and web services will take their place. We will see but it's going to take a lot to ween people of apps.
  • The app gap is a symptom of not having users. It isn't the problem.
  • So says you...over and over.
  • It is a natural progression. You create a compelling platform, you get it into people's hands and then developers support it in order to access those users. Microsoft wants to half-ass step #1 and then skip right to step #3, but that isn't how it works. Gimmicks don't bring developers. Users do. Google and Apple were able to get it done, they built a platform, people enjoyed it and supported it so developers followed. Microsoft keeps beating the same dead horse and wondering why it won't stand on its own. When WP7 failed, they needed to try a new strategy, not the same strategy with a different kernel.
  • Obviously you like to come here and troll so the platform must have some draw for you, what is it?
  • Troll? I am not trolling. I am right. Hindsight is 20/20 and we can now look back and see what happened. Microsoft was never able to gain any traction, not with manufacturers or consumers. The only Manufacturer that took it serious was Nokia and that was merely because Microsoft was paying them hundreds of millions of dollars. Unfortunately for Nokia, Microsoft didn't give them the tools to compete successfully with Samsung or any of the manufacturers.
  • Apple barely had any competition. Hell, the first iPhone didn't even run apps natively. Android was the first alternative for people who didn't like iPhone. They're now both mature. Windows missed the boat due to Ballmer being an idiot. Windows 8 was a stupid concept, particularly universal apps on W8. Basically the developer had to code twice but sell it once. Windows 10 is honestly the best chance MS has ever had and they're building on that. They're way behind and competing in an extremely saturated space. People already have two different choices. For most, they already like one or the other. Its an entirely different landscape than what Android or iPhone had to deal with. Comparing their beginnings to W10 is stupid and ignorant and shows your hindsight is a lot less than 20/20...
  • Exactly what I am saying. When Microsoft failed in the early days with WP7, they needed a change. Instead they only changed the kernel as if that was the reason WP7 failed. Now after repeat failures and several years it will be nearly impossible for them come back unless they bring something revolutionary. Something revolutionary is not running Windows. Something revolutionary isn't the past.
  • Surface = revolution running Windows.
  • The Surface wasn't a revolution. It has had minimal impact. It certainly didn't create a revolution.
  • I'm still waiting on your marketing research, other than your own opinion, that states explicitly why WP7 didn't sell more.
  • Chicken and egg scenario.
  • The chicken and egg scenario has been solved. Scientifically, the egg came first.
  • Yeah, I know. People who would answer chicken are creationists (God created the chicken) whereas if you chose egg you are an evolutionist (an egg was laid by an animal which the chicken evolved from).
  • Creationists didn't conjure the smartphone, scientists invented it. We will go with the scientific finding. ;)
  • Science didn't solve this question. We only know that in current evolutionary form, the chicken came from an egg. That first egg was laid by something closely related to the modern chicken. So the quandary remains "egg vs mature organism", colloquially referred to as "chicken or the egg".
  • TL,DR; version: Windows Mobile isn't dead, but it's dying. Full Windows will probably replace it.
  • :-) "Windows 10 Mobile, therefore, is Windows", this is my phrase. Hope it gets into more people's brains ;-) . Read: Windows 10 Mobile is Windows on ARM. Add a Win32 subsystem and we have 'full' Windows on ARM. I bet on Surface Pro and Surface Book on ARM (and the like) with cellular connectivity to be announced in September, launching with a matching Redstone 3 in October/November. Nice piece Jason.
  • Thanks Joscelin! And thanks for the input!🙂
  • Jason, good article about Google competition on ARM here
    http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/22/14691396/google-chromebook-arm-laptop-...