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Is early 2018 too soon for a Surface phone?

Like the Surface, Surface Book, and Surface Studio the Surface "phone" will have the distinct purpose of defining a category. It will not exist simply to exist, nor be positioned just to satisfy the desires of a fan base eager for a super device. Microsoft CMO Chris Capossela explained:

… it's important … for our fans to understand … our mental model has to be not just building another device that competes with a premium device in some category … it's got to have a different point of view, and hopefully, that's creating a new category.

Despite the success of current Surface devices, unique high-end hardware alone is insufficient to make a Surface phone a winner. Unlike the Surface Pro, Book and Studio, a Surface "phone" running full Windows on ARM would be positioned as an ultramobile PC but will also have the challenge of needing to "be a smartphone."

Though not a smartphone competing directly with rivals' smartphones, as a game changing "ultimate mobile device" positioned to redefine mobile, it will indirectly compete in that space and will need to do what smartphones do.

Thus, from a user perspective, this telephony-enabled pocket PC will need apps. From Microsoft's perspective, it will need support from developers. If Microsoft launches it before the necessary ecosystem support is in place its game-changing impact may be lost.

Microsoft's mobile offensive is about changing the game

Future apps

Microsoft's Conversations as a Canvas initiative reflects Redmond's confidence that in the future most apps will be replaced by AI and bots. Gartner predicts that by 2020, 20 percent of companies will no longer invest in apps. That's good and bad news for Microsoft. The good news is that it's an affirmation that a shift is underway in Redmond's favor. The bad news is that three years from now 80 percent of companies will still be invested in apps. Unfortunately, Microsoft has a hard time getting developers to build Windows apps.

A game-changing Surface phone without developer support is putting the cart before the horse.

Though most smartphone users use only six apps 91 percent of the time the industry mindset is still app-focused. A Surface phone will need apps.

This is where the concepts of a Windows Mobile 2017 (unlikely) or 2018 full Windows on ARM Surface "phone" (even with Win32 apps) run into a problem. Nadella's "ultimate mobile device," isn't only supposed to change Microsoft's mobile fortunes, but combined with an advanced ecosystem, it's meant to change the game. How can it change the game without developers?

Cart before the horse

If developers haven't supported Microsoft under the current app model, how will Redmond win their support for its AI and bot model? Particularly, when the competition, who developers have supported are on a similar path.

Capossela said of the inspiring Surface line: "2017 is coming, and we'll have great new things in 2017."

Most estimations place the Surface phone in 2018. Is Microsoft working on new Surfaces for 2017 that may help position Windows as a more appealing target for developers?

If Microsoft launches a Surface phone before it has established much-needed developer support they will put the cart before the horse.

A paradigm at rest remains at rest

The inertia of the current app model will ensure that it will remain unmoved, though diminished, three years from now. Microsoft has a vision for the future, but it needs a bridge from the present to get them there.

Without developer support leading up to Microsoft's game-changing device, the Surface phone is sure to have limited appeal. Microsoft must realize that even in the enterprise users are consumers first and smartphones are personal.

We've grown accustomed to increasingly sophisticated personal computing on our five-inch cellular-connected, mini-tablet computers we call smartphones. Though displays have gotten bigger, processors faster and RAM more capable, our smartphones are limited to what PC tasks they can handle. Thus, under the current smartphone paradigm, a PC is a PC and a smartphone, though ever reaching for more, is still only a smartphone.

As an evolution to this dead end, Redmond envisions the full power of personal computing and telephony as experiences that can occur on Windows 10 devices such as an ultramobile Surface. How will Microsoft win developers to the ecosystem that will support such a device?

Until acted upon by an outside force

Later this year Microsoft's partners will begin bringing ARM-based cellular PCs to consumers.

Users will be able to purchase cellular data through the Windows Store to keep these power-efficient, Cortana-enabled Windows PCs always connected. This new type of PC introduces a recurring motivation for potentially millions of consumers to engage the Store as they seek to replenish their cellular data. Internet browsing and Microsoft's investments in Cortana (in certain regions) are reasons why users may wish to keep their devices connected. Apps may be another reason.

Cellular PCs' constant connectivity increases the practicality of modern apps.

Cellular PCs' constant connectivity, inherent mobility and diverse form factors increase the practicality of many types of modern apps. By removing the barrier of searching for or connecting to potentially unsafe Wi-Fi networks, cellular PCs will be just as reliable a go-to, connected device as our smartphones. I believe this is Microsoft's intent.

If cellular PCs of various forms and sizes become commonplace the activity that we normally reserve for our smartphones may begin being relegated to these new PCs. Consequently, Windows may become a more relevant platform for app developers.

Cellular PCs will pave the way for the Surface phone

A positive reception for always-connected cellular PCs will give Microsoft a vantage point from which to introduce their telephony-enabled ultramobile Surface. This device will potentially reap the benefits of the mindshare, Store engagement and developer investments established by its cellular PC predecessors.

Cellular PCs are the harbingers to the ultramobile Surface.

That's the optimistic progression. But at the end of January 2017, developer interest in Windows is less than ideal. Beyond the inconsistencies of the past where developers' apps were "broken" as Redmond advanced its OneCore strategy, the arguably unclear message from Redmond concerning "mobile" leaves many developers disinterested.

If the Surface phone is to succeed Microsoft must draw developers to its ecosystem. BUILD 2017 (opens in new tab) is Redmond's opportunity to make an unprecedented appeal to developers before cellular PCs reach the market later this year, and a potential Surface phone does the same in 2018.

Will Microsoft deliver?

Following the Story

Windows phone isn't dead

Smartphones are dead

The untold app gap story

AIs, Bots and Canvases

Microsoft and the duo user

Windows Mobile and the enterprise

The Surface Phone

Jason L Ward is a columnist at Windows Central. He provides unique big picture analysis of the complex world of Microsoft. Jason takes the small clues and gives you an insightful big picture perspective through storytelling that you won't find *anywhere* else. Seriously, this dude thinks outside the box. Follow him on Twitter at @JLTechWord. He's doing the "write" thing!

506 Comments
  • Thanks for reading folks!!! If Microsoft's timetable is indeed Cellular PCs beginning to hit the market by the end of this year and a Surface phone in 2018, the company has a lot of work to do to get it's ecosystem in order. This year needs to be a year of putting its shoulder to the wheel to get developers' on board for both the app paradigm that is slowly transitioning out and the AI and bot paradigm that will replace many type, though not all type of apps. What will Microsoft do this year? LET'S TALK!!!
  • I think they will announce the creators update, surface pro 5 or surface book 2 of both. New shell design (i think), UI changes to Xbox one and Xbox one S and the launch of Project Scorpio
  • and nothing from the list will get developers thumbs up, first of all they shd stop charging developers for publishing store apps
  • I've never been charged for publishing my apps.... They have been free apps though
  • There hasn't been a fee to publish to the store for ages now. Including paid apps. There used to be. Last time I looked at the Apple App Store that required a fee but I would expect all stores now offer free developer accounts. I've got multiple apps on the store, both paid and free and they definitely do not need a paid subscription. Back in the WP7 days you did pay an annual fee.
  • It's not free. You need to pay a one-time fee of US$ 19 or its equivalent, depending on your country. Once that is done, you can publish as many apps as you wish for free.
  • So Snapchat will jump the wagon as soon as they remove those one time fee of 20$ as they can't afford them? Not a single app that users want was stopped by that fee. It kind of only stops kids from Inida to publish their first app built in 2 hours to the Store. And it is so low that it doesn't successfully do even that. If Microsoft wants to attract serious developers, it should raise the fee to at least Apple's level. Because good developers don't want to waste their time in competition with kids, and for many of them 100$ is only an hour of their work.
  • Can you explain to me what is this fees plz🙂
  • Publishing apps has been free for the last 3-4 years
  • They drop those fees!
  • If they didn't charging developers to make store apps how do you think they will get the apps that's necessary to make surface phone works 😐
  • To soon for Surface Book 2 - they just released Performance Base so it would affect its sales. What important they could add in Surface 5? They really need something going for Windows 10 Mobile!
  • Jason, the correct quote is: "We'll talk about that at the next Build".  
  • Multiple screens
    Pen support
    Windows holographic
    Continuum
    Only these for features will make a surface phone. I am willing to wait for 2019;")
  • That sounds like everything "business" related and very little regular Joe consumer related.  I would like to see Microsoft put some energies in a consumer product.  The more they move to a business product the more features they'll remove.  But then again, I'm not sure how much more they can remove.  The removal of Rooms, Kids Corner, Panoramic Photo Hub, Me Hub, intergration with social media all spelled the end of trying to woo regular consumers. 
  • Rooms and Kids Corner went unused by the remaining users, while the Hubs failed because third parties want to keep control of everything instead of using the built-in features. Android nor iOS would get different results on those two.
  • You don't think Kids Corner went unused because majority of kids would prefer to use iOS or android rather than the Windows device their parents handed them?
  • Yeah I agree children rather use android and iOS devices because it's cheaper and many apps and games on their stores and it's free also like over here in Iraq you can get an android device in 96 dollars or les if you want a Chinese one and it's android so I think families will buy an android tablet to their children because it's cheap and many games on it
  • @Arquimaes They went unused because they (MS) didn't put much conistent effort in marketing and advertising their products.  The question I would ask you is, are you a parent?  If the answer is no, then you probably wouldn't use some of these features.  With Rooms my entire family could keep up with appointments, get togethers, meetings and just everyday things.  A very easy way to keep everyone envolved. And to say people didn't enjoy the Panoramic veiw in the Photo Hub is just silly.  You could also see the photos posted by friends from facebook through the Photo hub.  Let's just face the truth.  Microsoft did not market their products at all!  When little used it then the claimed it was hardly being used.  I'm glad you bought the line about parties wanting to keep control.  I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.  It was a way of keeping cost down for Microsoft.  They basically wanted to do everything on the cheap.  What's funny everyone I knew or know who had/has a Windows Phone device miss the intergration with social media and yes that was just a handful of people.  Plus if iOS had it they would have advertised the hell out of it and everyone would be claiming what a great concept.
  • I agree with you on this. WP8 mainly, had some great features, some taken out in WP8.1 but nevertheless, it remained fine, FAST, stable. I do miss my old 1520,1020,930...on 8/8.1. Windows 10 mobile is nothing near 8/8.1...it's way worse, crap,mediocre reboot!
  • Nice article Jason. 2018 might be too late for some(many actually) but when I chose window mobile os over Android and iOS I did so with the understanding that there would be struggles(that it would/will be the underdog) but most important, I chose it because I wanted to be different. From the time I used the Lumia 800 to then my very own 920/1020 and now my 950XL I've felt like a unique user. I'm not worried about when MS release the "Surface" phone because hell, didn't Apple have the high end market in a vice grip? Now look at the current trend. Take your time I say MS.
  • But aren't you annoyed about there isn't an official apps like YouTube , Snapchat and ask.fm or other apps on Windows phone 😐 even MS is supporting the last phones with it's own updates like Windows hello or the slow motion video records or the new bugs with the new builds
  • i think surface phone should come in july 2017 and not later... even in small numbers. they have release it and update it every year in july...
  • Have you considered that at that time most people are on the vacation and they don't give a **** whether Microsoft, Apple or Samsung have released something. I guess only August is worse proposal than that.
  • I think MS needs to take the lead in building apps and services, in addition to the OS, that will draw customers, then developers. WinArm with flawless Win32 might do some of that, but apps that are valuable and easy to access via the desktop store (other than Office) are a must. A game might be a good test run of that sort of thing.
  • I'm all for get it out when it's ready but, damn almost three years for a new phone from Microsoft (Lumia 950/xl released in October 2015). Just feels like only so much you can kick the can down the road and ask the last of the loyal users to keep waiting. Hopefully when it comes out it will be awesome and not too little too late.
  • There was the HP Elite x3 (on which Im typing this), which is a beast and then there is the Alcatel Idol 4s (which is also looks great on paper, havent used one my self) in 2016. So maybe OEMs may out our some compelling devices between now and 2018 :)
  • question for you: why do WC articles have different headlines or subjects if you view it on a PC, or in the WC app? Its kinda annoying, to be honest.
  • Jason Ward...let's not talk - just go to sleep and wait for you to publish your next article :)
  • Just for me personally. I've just recently purchased a HP Elite x3 (used it less then a day now) after being on Android (Nexus 6) for around 10 months and I have to say it's been great, yes I mis some apps (will be selling my Nexus and Moto360 and get a cheap android tablet for those apps), but I just love this OS and I know that there are millions of Windows Phone fans out there that are on iOS or Android because of the lack of apps or the lack of decent hardware in there region. If and when Microsoft gets compelling hardware out to market and tackles its app situation (I still hold on some hope for the UWP to make the difference) they wil be back.
    Windows 10 Mobile on the HP Elite x3 is a joy to use and I'll be happy to use it until Microsoft release's the next big thing!
  • The HP Eltie X3 is a nice device.So was the Lumia 1520.  I know Steve Balmer was fighting a losing battle to compete with IOS and Android, but as shown by these articles and this site there is still a group of people that really appreciated the work that went into the Windows Phone devices.
    In theory, the drive to win at something unattainable can run a company bankrupt, but I feel like Windows Phone could have been left as a statement of what Microsoft could do,  a Marketing Show Piece, even if it wasn't profitable.Perhaps they could have taken a less aggressive approach and throttle back Nokia and keep releasing a Premium and Mid-range device every year. Cut manufacturing to a quarter of the output, etc...but keep the Windows Phone  dream alive. I appreciate the attention Microsoft is giving to the other Platforms like Android and IOS. Also, it can take guts to shutdown something as big as Windows Phone, but looking back, I think they should have left Windows Phone in more of an active state rather than copmpletely putting it in Complete Hibernation (with the exception of the HP Elite X3 and a few other Manuafacturers.) Windows Phone could have been the new BlackBerry Phone for Enterprise Customers.Then again maybe Microsoft could Purchase BlackBerry someday. How will a cellular PC be different from buying a cellular chip in a Dell Laptop? I remember when AT&T and Verizon tried selling Laptops. Also they have had some Surfaces for sale as well. Not sure if there will be a big demand for this, but then Data on a Smartphone was once seen as a luxury as well. One issue with Cellular PC's will be the Data Allowances...a user will wish to power his PC on anywhere and not worry about the cost...Presently data is sold in small bundles that using Data on a Laptop intesively will incur signifigant charges, This could however work if cellular eventually replaces wired home and business internet connections.
  • I think Microsoft needs to focus on solid PR just as much as they do product in order to be successful with this
  • My question essentially is " its the desktop os on mobile plattforms, which is amazing. But apps like whatsapp, 6tag and others don't work on the desktop plattform. How is that being solved ? Because for the most part I only use WhatsApp, the camera app and edge browser on my 1520 atm. Now lets say, they would make a wim10 powered 1530. How would WhatsApp and so on run on that ? Will they have to rebuilt those apps ?"
  • Too soon nope, too late yes! With that strategy we will in 2018 talking about the future of pc and windows 10, evreyone will gone use chrombooks and android on their pc's. People love aps, and windows dosnt have that. Satya Nadela is bad menager and evreybody knows that!
  • Think 2018 could be too late for a surface phone as Samsung is planning something similar and may be ready late 2017
  • The right time for a Surface phone was like 2 years ago. 2018 is about 3 years too late, especially if it can't natively run Android apps.
  • LOL, sadly three years too late seems like the story of Windows phone users' lives.
  • Running Android apps would sell the phone, at the cost of the whole Windows OS. Why build native apps when you can use your existing apks? Also, the compatibility layer was dragging down the performance of the phones.
  • I'm not sure I understand your logic. Why force developers to build native apps (which they have no interest in doing) when you could just make it possible to run the apps that they've already written? Do you think that Boot Camp and Parallels harmed the Mac ecosystem, because people just kept developing software for Windows? Or, do you think that by making Macs compatible with the largest software library available, a lot more people ended up buying Macs? Because Macs can run MacOS and Windows, a Mac is the only computer you need. For Windows to remain relevant, Microsoft needs to make Windows the OS the runs all the software that users expect. Because we live in a "mobile first" world (Microsoft's own admission), Microsoft will become a dinosaur as more and more users say, "hey, I have this cool app on my phone... why can't I use it on my laptop, too?" This is especially urgent now that Google has a better answer to that question. "You can, you just need a Chromebook."
  • Yeah but here is the thing. Microsoft and windows 10 are following a unique design. Both in ui and experience with the programm and app. Just giving everyone the ability to install android apps would destroy the look and feel of a native windows environment. It wouldn't feel like windows anymore. ( or more poetic: It wouldn't feel like home anymore )
    That's why microsoft tried the android bridge and the ios bridge.
    The android bridge got pulled because people had performance issues and someone flashed full android on a windows phone. The ios bridge is still there. Its easy to port apps to windows. Many small devs did it. But apps like Snapchat for example refuse to, because they can't make money of the small user base. That is the issue. Its not that they don't want to port, they just don't make.money. But we got rudy ^^ he gives us the windows versions of the apps devs refuse to port :) The only apps windows doesn't have is Snapchat. And honestly, duck Snapchat. Duck it in particular. The always active camera, even when the app is closed is freaky. And above that, win10mobile is amazing. Its just sad that so many people decide they rather need useless apps like Snapchat, instead of comfort and quality design and a tidy os . Its not microsofts fault at this point.
  • Not on my 1520 honestly. Facebook and WhatsApp were running smooth af. They just stopped working after a week or so and you had to reinstall em. But microsoft pulled it because of the fact that someone flashed a full android os on a 930 or an other phone. Also, most apps exsist for iOS also, its little to none effort to use the ios bridge and port the apps. Instagram has done it. It can literally done by 1 guy in a week to port an app. Maybe even a day.
  • 2018 is too late
  • 2010 is too late (fixed for correctness)   MS lost a long time ago, I would be shocked if the masses came back, no real reason to.
  • Remember MS lost tablet war, now tablet lost war.
  • Tablet lost the war to phablets.
  • They have to release it this year. Another year is too long.
  • I agree with you but it will be dead in the water as most apps are missing. Unless its a true game changer that no other platform can offer that is simply irresistible for both buyers and developers. 2018 sounds reasonable as the ecosystem builds up for the cellular PC's first that will lead the way for the Surface Phone.
  • The longer they wait, the MORE apps will be missing. MS has publicly been so disinterested in WP10 that many developers are throwing in the towel. An incredibly dumb move on MS' part imo. At least signal that it's worth it to keep the apps alive. 
  • Yep. We have heard this story before. How Windows 8 was going to get apps because it would be on all PCs. How windows 10's universal code and app store would bring more developers in because it would be on all PCs. The thing is alot of people using touch based laptops or tablets (on Windows 10) just use the desktop environment because they are unaware that there is even an app store or know that the app for the site in question sucks/hasn't been updated in forever or was pulled not too long ago. That behavior makes it hard to convince developers to port win 32 apps to the UWP or port iOS/Android apps over when ppl just aren't using the app store.
  • A few things could help building up the ecosystem for the Celullar PC in the coming years: -  The upcoming 5G network which will certainly help the 'always connected' devices -  The 7nm process mobile processors (SD840?) will show up in 2018.  It will be even more powerful and energy efficient than SD835. -  According to TSMC, the 5nm processor will arrive in 2020 and 3nm processor will arrive in 2022.  The future of Celullar PC looks brighter and more promising by the year.. -  The common Windows Shell will tightly integrate and synchronize the W10M and W10 in a unique UI no other platforms can compete. -  The W10 user base will continue to expand in the coming years and that would help attracting the potential Celullar PC crowd. MS needs to clearly demonstrate their Cellullar PC roadmap and their commitments to the developers in the BUILD 2017.  Hopefully, some of the MS partners and OEMs will release some SD835 based W10M devices this year to maintain the WP fan's interest.
  • As long as an oem puts out a phone with a camera as decent as the Lumia 950/xl, I would buy it. The cameras for the Alcatel and HP elite x3 (it would seem from the reviews out there) just aren't as good. You don't realize how good 2016/2017 flagship phones cameras' are until you sue a flagship from like 4 years ago indoors with okay lighting. Lumia 920 in doors looks so grainy. Ipod touch 6g (which has like a iphone 5/ipad air 2) type camera is horrid indoors. These were great cameras when they came out but technology keeps moving forward. So trying to get someone who moved on to an Samsung Galaxy s7 or an iphone 6s/7 with an avg camera and little to no developer support to return to the fold will be tough.
  • How are cellular PCs different from regular PCs? They are basically the same other than less performance and more battery life. It isn't going to make that much of a difference.
  • The Celullar PC can provide a 2-in-1 mobile form factor.  A 6" phone size with foldable screens which can turn into a tablet running UWP and Win32 apps.  It will create a new category.
  • Microsoft doesn't have the screen technology to create that new category. They will have to buy it from LG. Samsung will probably have their own version first and they will keep it for themselves. Apple will probably get priority from LG as well as they can guarantee more sales. Microsoft is going to struggle to be first to market with the folding screen.
  • Too long for what? They already told you to go and buy apple or android because they are not interested in our money.
  • LOL
  • LOL!!! Reminds me of a friend that went to buy a car and offered the dealer well below of what the dealer was asking, he said "they wouldn't take my money", still funny to this day...
  • Regardless if MS will deliver the Surface Phone or not I not going to buy it, never. I was a big fan of Microsoft mobile products. MS ****** with me countless times. I had HTC Elf and HD2 - Windows Mobile 6 killed many years ago, than I moved to Lumia 910 running WP 7-7.8--killed a couple years ago than I CV moved Lumia 1020 which wasn't elegible for W10M update and now I am on Lumia 950XL (Lumias have been cancelled, W10M abandoned by MS). I cannot believe how incredibly stupid I was/ I am that I haven't switched to iPhone many years ago. **** MS mobile, I'll never ever buy mobile device from MS
  • By abandoned do you mean "discontinued"? If you view it in that context, they have given all devices their full lifespan (and beyond!). No other platform is providing continued upgrades for any longer than these (superseeded) Windows OSs are? I can understand some of your ill feeling, for me - due to removed features. However, you have been fully supported and do have the *choice* to continue using the older devices, operating systems and services.
  • oh like how WP7 was abandoned a month after Lumia 900 release, they cheated the customers by keeping them in the dark when they already new the device wont be upgradable.
  • Check history again.
  • fanboy!! what history? MS lied and tricked users with the WP7.5 and Lumia 900! stop being blind and stupid
  • As with any other product: it functioned exactly 'as-sold' and continued to receive updates. Oh hell BMW 'my 2004 320ES doesn't have the i-Drive you knew you'd launch with the 2005 model a month after I bought it'?! FFS, there is a limit dude.
  • I think your example is out of context of the situation.   I mean, your smart phone has to be continuiously be supported to be able to run, your car needs gas and maintenance from time to time.   Now, if your car is in a closed system where you have to have permission to give it gas and maintenance from the manufacturer... and then said mainfacturer doesn't want to support that... then to me that would be a closer example.   MS has a history of quickly abandoning systems or technology.  Of course, as you mentioned... there is a limit.   The problem with MS on mobile is there are products that already exist, I doubt they come back... and the other products are considered to be better by the masses... I for one have a WP, but I really don't use or care for apps, in general... I got it because it cost $29.99.    Length of support is a problem for MS but even if they changed their ways on that... doubt customers come back... MS doesn't even use their own mobile products.... that tells me all I need to know.  Which is why win32 is great, the world really doesn't need MS in that regard, generally.  
  • @MakeDaniels "I mean, your smart phone has to be continuously be supported to be able to run". I still use my WP7 HTC Radar 4G device daily.  Last time I checked it isn't continuously supported.  But it still accepts and makes phone calls.  Still send SMS.  Still supports games that a listed in the store.  Still runs Zune music.  When I purchased this phone it supported what I needed and for the most part still does.  I also have a lumia 830.  And I still prefer my WP7 device in many ways.  I had a Lumia 950, but it didn't feel like an upgrade to me.  Microsoft started to remove so many features I liked it barely resembled the beauty I still find in my WP7 device.  So no.  I purchased the devices as is with no illusion that they need to be upgraded. 
  • @whoaboss, man I am actually with you on that... meaning I have a W10 WP but generally I use it as a dumb phone.   I don't rely on it heavily on it, but let's be honest here... the general consumer has what it wants i.e. iOS/Andriod.   I just disagree with the car example, as I didn't think the example fit in this instance.     I do like Win32 for the sake of lack of change, its actually a good thing at time.   Heck, I like it now that MS is out of the XNA picture... its actually a better  place.
  • Yup. Microsoft really upgraded things to the worse. I personally thing wp 8.1 was the best mobile os yet. Especially with that denim 2 update that overhault the settings menu to look like the win10mobile one with categrorirs
  • I agree. The reinventing of the OS and not being to upgrade it to the next available software, even though other OSes (iPhone or Android) allowed at least one more upgrade, left a bad taste in alot of peoples' mouth. Whether it came much later or you had to flash it to upgrade (Android), you had that choice. I have a cousin who was a big windows phone fan. He got the lumia 900 when it came out. When he realized it wouldn't get windows phone 8 (and they threw everyone a bone but giving them WP7.8 much much later) he felt burned and got himself an iphone. Something that was updated on day one with any and all apps that people could want or at least try and see what all the hub bub was about.
  • if one goes by your logic, noone will ever support an upcoming product, they launched it with limited features and promised updates to make it useful, can you imagine a so called smartphone not having even an ability to "select all" in gallery. and then they abandoned it, infact wp8 was in development in parallel so they always new the new premium devices were already obsolete. btw MS promised to supprt the os for 3 yrs yet didnt update their own apps for it, skype was discontined even as it was still supported on iphone 3gs even
  • Exactly.
  • If the lifespan weren't "take it now, we'll make it great later," you'd have a point. Instead, each "lifespan" is waiting on broken promises. An iPhone will run through 3-4 years of stable, reliable OS updates before its out to pasture. With MS, you have to pick 1-2 years of updates before a 100% abandonment, or trickling improvements from extreme instability for 2-3 years. Yeah, I can choose to keep using my old devices, but I'm not going to get to use MLB.TV anymore, my IM client will be extremely inconsistent and buggy, I'll get an imdb app that won't display images, and I'll have a music player that's prone to crashing and which doesn't label all of my music properly.
  • My 1520 is going to 4 years old this year I think. I can say I did kinda beat your iphone is better then wp :D
  • Not sure what you mean "killed". My 950 still works. Your expectation that technology will last forever might be your issue ...that and it's clear you buy too many phones ...but don't we all. ☺
  • I'm on the same boat as you. But I can't see myself giving all my information to Alphabet or buying into Apple when I'm already on the Microsoft ecosystem. I'll stick around with my XL a little longer.
  • Sadly I'm on same path that said once surface mobile get released you get temped to get one.. Untill then we must adjust with android or ios
  • More OS updates on my 950xl than on my kids iPad. Probably more in two weeks than in a year on ios. Stable current insiders preview and works as a pc at work. Apps.. Got FB, twitter, news, insta and weather plus the best camera on the market. Tried a 7 and took it back, horrid lens sharpness and colour, no raw, crap battery life and slow charging. Will wait for a bit to see what happens. But not an iPhone, maybe note 8?
  • More frequent updates is not sign of a good OS, actually it's the opposite. With all those layoffs, MS delegated the OS debugging work into Insiders. That's why with every update we get "new" stuff, but we also get tons of new bugs as well, then we have to wait for the next update to fix them (which will break other things again), and the cycle repeats over and over, update after update.
  • Not seen any bugs for six months and ios still has a tonne. And the difference in what they can do is immediately clear just looking at the home screen. Besides, I have a PC in my pocket, I mean my phone runs full Photoshop on our network and it fits in my pocket. That iPad air the school gave me does nothing in comparison. Just saying... The OS for me is WP by miles.
  • Yeah, I haven't had bugs in a while now. And my 1520 had serious issues. But for like 5/6 month its working as intended:)
  • Yeah, I haven't had bugs in a while now. And my 1520 had serious issues. But for like 5/6 month its working as intended:)
  • Yes but the once in a year updated device is more stable and has more features than your every 24 hourly updated device.
  • How so...?
  • The Nexus line has suffered worse.  The Galaxy Note that you can actually buy is older than your Lumia's.  I agree with the changes being painful - I've gone through it with you.  But bear in mind the entire platform space is sizably challenged in supporting customers and very expensive devices for as long as we feel the costs should warrant.  You may still opt for other solutions but none of them are really doing right by the long term consumer  
  • I still have my 1520. Its like 4 years old now? Its freaking awesome. Works smooth, windows 10 movie has no issues anymore. They stopped updating it because it works as intended now. Also, the 1020 can have win10. Become an insider, get win 10, go to release preview, get the official latest release voila
  • Well surface phone cant be released if the w10 on arm isn't ready and the shell also not ready. Not until the os is truly unified I guess.
  • That's what I thought. Until then, Apps should grow but then you realize there are no devices to fulfill it. Lots of frustrated fans will move on, I don't want to move on :/
  • Dude its already too late and you're asking about a year from now??
  • Its already late n when it comes out it will be buggy as hell n WC will say wait fir 3rd iteration.
  • A year of time is sufficient to perfect a device and its ecosystem, I'm sure Surface team and Insider team will figure something out.
  • How do you create an ecosystem in a year?
  • You can't play another waiting game, otherwise you will miss the entire market again. That was the problem with WP, it came too late. They waited and waited and missed the opportunity. You can't put the cart before a horse, but you also can't let that horse run away without a cart. Surface succeeded because it was first to the game. Same with Book. It might struggle at first, but eventually it will come out ahead. If you let your competition get there first, you lose. IPhone came to the smartphone game first (in current, touchscreen and apps form), they struggled but eventually redefined the market. Microsoft has an opportunity to do the same.
  • This comment proves you are thinking surface phone will just be a phone.
  • Yep. Many here don't get it at all. MS will probably never release a phone ever again, at least the way we currently know a phone. Timing doesn't really matter here. I mean of course it does to an extent, but more so to not get passed again with whatever the next paradigm ends up being.
    Most of the comments here are just silly and unfortunately not forward thinking. Oh well.
  • At last someone made sensible comment. I agree each and every word.
  • Right, hopefully they are getting ready for what's around the bend in the curve ahead that we can't fully see yet ;-)
  • MS will probably never again release a phone ever again, at least the way we currently know a phone.
    It doesn't matter. Whatever it is they end up releasing, they will need developers. Something they have failed to do for the past decade.
  • I don't disagree.
  • Not necessarily. If the future lies in internet services through a browser rather than apps, the services ought to be available for all systems on an equal footing. And why not? Most functionality is handled by servers already anyway. Easy data access across borders is growing leaps and bounds. Developers could focus on one medium instead of two or three. We'd be back to focusing on what ought to matter; hardware and UI.
  • Considering the rumors that Samsung might also launch a "mobile pc", Microsoft doesn't have much time left.
  • Exactly. They don't want to put the cart before the horse yet everyone else has moved on to cars.
  • C'mon men! Window phones is older than iPhone or android... It's been there since BB days
  • Microsoft will not deliver soon enough. Windows mobile is dead. Who makes app for Windows 10 PC? "None".
  • even MS doesnt develop apps for windows first.
  • It was too late even yesterday. Apps will be dissapearing from store 
  • It will be too late if Microsoft decides to introduce surface phone late 2018 , by the time windows 10 mobile gonna dome! :(
  • i was waiting for a surface phone since mid 2015. therefore i haven't extended my contract... i give up. I'm buying the next galaxy device :/ sad, but i feel like i've waited long enough.
  • Same here looking forward to get the iPhone 7 Plus....even the head of Microsoft use it so, its safe to say that between iPhone and Win10M iPhone its a better choice....sad but true
  • Same here, after 6 years its kinda disappointing to let go. Lots of people have given MS chance after chance even insiders helping them out through feedbacks....just to go the enterprise and screw the devs and insiders big time. There are potentional thousands left, like hololens, that can afford the surface phone that never will be released.
  • There will be practically no ecosystem left if they decide to sit on new hw for another year. We are losing apps daily.
  • Yep. It's like saying I won't get the GTX 1080 because the 1180 will be so much better. You will always be chasing the better tech around the next bend.
  • I can't even picture a viable MS mobile product until the OS is passably acceptable.  Until then, nothing matters. 
  • 2018 is too late. Microsoft need to present the device at build 2017, otherwise it will be too late.
  • not just the devicem they need to present a consistent mobile strategy n give confidence to the developers to invest in it.
  • "give confidence to the developers to invest in it." It might be too late for this, but it's definitely been a problem thus far. What developer wants to spend resources on a platform that has sweeping changes every 2-3 years? WP7 devs probably had to live that going to WP8, and it probalby happened going to W10M. MS doesn't let anything take root.
  • Guys don't you freak out... Its just 2018... December 2018 😅
  • Man, I'm looking to upgrade from my 950xl this year!!!!! Screw 2018! MS better have a phone or I'm out. By out I mean the entire ecosystem. My phone is the center of my electronic life.
  • Yeah, I was planning to upgrade my phone this spring, expecting the long-awaited Surface Phone...or whatever we get. I'm not sitting on this shoddy Lumia 950 for another 18 months, until MS gets its life together. If they have no W10M device on the market when I go to upgrade, I'll probably grab an LG G6.
  • I think something like a Windows 10 on ARM mobile device that runs Android apps is kind of the only hopes they have. I mean full Win32 support, UWP support and millions of Android apps. I'll definitely buy it.
  • Yeah, worst news of the decade was last year when they said they had cancelled the "bridge" to run Android apps on Windows. They kind of just handed the mobile and laptop markets to Google. It'll be another year before Android apps are really rockin' on ChromeOS, but then there won't be a lot of reason to choose a Windows laptop over a Chromebook.
  • Android could have beaten W10M but Windows 10 as a Service (and where it is headed) won't lose to ChromeOS (or Andromeda), never. Windows 10 is a reek of Productivity and features, not to mention security and privacy at its best.
  • Could have? Android did beat Windows on phones. And in the "mobile first" world we're living in, Unless people just stop using phones, Android apps are the future. Microsoft is lucky, because Android is essentially an open standard that Microsoft could embrace (and extend). That's the easiest path forward. If they don't do that, then I don't know what they can do to remain relevant in a mobile-first world. 
  • They better dish out other flagship phones in them meantime, or they'll be taking some critical losses.
  • Not really. There is almost no market share left to lose. All but the most dedicated fanboys have already moved on, and the fanboys will stick with it at least another year.
  • Ya like L950xl make specs dump into device tada new flagship.. No thanks
  • What?
  • Totally agree with you. Msft should release devices in the meantime (budget, midrange and flagship) to cover up the gap, they better work on W10M (with respect to Windows 10) and lure developers to make tons and tons of native apps as possible, only then Windows 10 Mobile market will be alive and kicking.
  • It's the start of the 4th quarter, Microsoft down by 3 touchdowns. 1st down at it's own 1 yard line.... Nadella hands the ball off to MS garage and...... FUMBLE IN THE ENDZONE, SAFETY! of course it's too late..... Not learning from the past you will be sure to repeat failures of the past.
  • Just keep talking........
  • For microsoft to even have a chance in mobile space it is important for them to keep it alive and running and making it stronger at a faster pace than competition which, frankly speaking, is far from happening. They are still very much focussed on pc market and still ignoring mobile while keeping it barely alive. They have killed first party hardware (Lumia) without indulging strong third party oems like samsung which further reduces chances for w10m's success. Going by current scenario, even if they become major player in tablet market (somehow) they will not be able to attract mobile specific developers. Windows on tablet is still struggling if one considers apps and without support from mobile it may ultimately fail.....
  • Manufacturers are not going to be excited to make phones using Microsoft's locked down platform. It was a huge mistake for a Microsoft to not make Windows Phone more open or to not make killer first party hardware. They needed one or the other.
  • They had LG, HTC, Samsung, and Nokia willing to go with the platform, what are you talking about?
  • None of them put any effort in though. Nokia did, but Microsoft payed them hundreds of million of dollars. Why would Samsung put effort into Windows Phone when it did give them anywhere near the power and potential that Android did. Windows Phone wouldn't have been sufficient to create the Galaxy S3.
  • I totally disagree. Samsung was aiming to bail on Android back then, with Tizen its long-term goal. They seemed to want to have a hand in everything. HTC had a weel-designed device that got a lot of attention from Microsoft (8X), and even as Nokia was the clear leader in quality, Microsoft called HTC's device the flagship of Windows Phone 8. With WP7, we saw different ideas from all 3 of the then-major players: HTC's speaker-including Surround, the slide-out keyboard on LG's device, and a mostly clean, safe (but well-liked) design from Samsung's Focus. What's more, HTC and Samsung stayed i the WP business for, what, 3-5 years each? They definitely tried. The GS III statement, I can't understand. The 920 ran on the same hardware, with a better camera, more storage, and wireless charging added in. The only thing Samsung couldn't have done is had its bloatware free from being uninstalled by the user.
  • The GS3 was well before all that. It came out the same time as the L900. Samsung wouldn't have been able to add all those dumb features to Windows Phone like they did Android. The GS3 really put Samsung on the map because they had all these insane features they could market and differentiate from other devices, especially the iPhone. You are right the L920 was the same hardware, but it was 6 months behind the GS3 and didn't have anywhere near the features. I think all those features were kinda dumb, but they gave Samsung a huge marketing boost and we know see how that turned out. All those companies may have put out a Windows Phone or two, but you cannot say they put anywhere near the effort into them that they put into their Android devices.
  • No. It's long overdue.
  • If it has the wow factor, why would it not be a success? But it will have to beat iOS and Android. Sure, Surface book, studio and tables are nice hardware but I would not call it a success.
  • What are you referring to, a phone? If you don't consider the Surface Pro tablets a success, what would make a phone that does the same thing, but in an environment that might be less user-friendly, turn out better? The "wow factor" only works if the product works. Consider the previous endeavors with the various MS-based mobile operating systems. W10M was meant to unify an app store, that was a great idea. Then, no one developed for it. WP8 brought forth OIS, a very nice piece of camera tech, and added the phenomenal optics of the 1020, while evolving a great UI. What happened? No one developed for it, and no one adopted it. What would keep a fancy phone from working out? Full Windows, even with this supposed shell, might not be as stable or simple as the people who flock to iOS like. It might not be as open and flexible as the Android crowd likes. Most importantly, who's going to develop for it, and how will the legacy software behave? Lots of unknowns, and what we DO know is that Microsoft's execution has been wretched for 5+ years. That's why it wouldn't be a success.
  • You are talking about something everybody knows already. That's not a wow factor to anyone. So it has to be something nobody thought it was possible.
  • What you are talking about is literally nothing. "The wow factor" is not an actual thing. Your sentence is basically just "if they're successful, why wouldn't they be successful?" There's no actual substance. You want to talk about something no one's seen before? How's HoloLens going over in the public eye? Most know nothing about it. Now, I think it's sold better than I expected it to, but it still hasn't shown itself to have long-term viability in the consumer space. The only thing we've got to show for it on that side is the set of Windows Holographic tools going into third-party VR devices, but that doesn't exactly push the Windows platform, necessarily. So, give some kind of meaningful example of what you deem to be "the wow factor," rather than uselessly vague nonsense.
  • I allready wrote that. That 'something' has to blow iOS and Android away.
  • The Pro tablets and Book have been great successes though.  They were meant to inspire OEMs and raise the standard of Windows hardware.  And this is exactly what they have done.
  • I think Ill give myself a break from Windows (and this is coming from a diehard Windows fan) till they figure their **** out.
  • Re: aka Blade800,
    I suggest you keep using your Windows devices. They work. If you need a new distraction, take up a new hobby or spend time with family and friends. Focus on your work. Do something other than center your life around apps.
    Just an idea.
    Best Wishes
  • "I suggest you keep using your Windows devices. They work." I've got a Lumia 950 running a Groove Music app that crashes 80% of the time I try to use the alphabetical selection menu that disagrees with your comment. Music is probably the biggest thing I use my phone for, after web browsing, so when the core components of the OS do things like that, saying something works is generous.
  • This. Its not just about the apps. I cant even listen to music without restarting my phone every time. I reported this bug to Microsoft back in November even with crash log and since then they released like 2 or 3 cummulative updates with no fix.
  • For me, the phone I'd the only place Groove actually works. That being said the other app I use often is this one, WC, and it is an absolute mess of crashes and instability.
  • My phone is the only place I've tried Groove. However, I updated it about 2-3 weeks back, and ever since, the alphabetical nav is a disaster. It was perfectly fine, never had a problem before. Now, if I use it, I have to restart the app almost every time I try it, and restarting it isn't a solution. Instead, I have to manually scroll everything. Given the album I've listened to most lately is by Wolves at the Gate, and I have a lot of music on my phone, it's a long trek down the screen to find what I want.
  • Yeah, that would definitely suck.
  • I love you #nohomo
  • Cortana used to work well on 8.1. Two years later on 10 it is abysmal, not even close to 8.1perfomance.
    MS couldn't organise a booze up at a pub.
  • You just hit on Microsoft's new ad campaign. "Microsoft brings families together - by keeping those distracting apps out of your lives!"
  • It is apparent that most people are stuck in today's "smartphone" mindset. That is fine. It addresses their needs and desires today and Microsoft has a very steep climb and lots of risk to break into that smartphone market... They have many failed attempts to prove it. Everyone recognizes MS missed the boat many years ago.
    Microsoft has to wait until the ecosystem for "superphone.next" is in place and self-sustaining and the only way to do that is to leverage the areas they are strong today. Then, and only then, can they put a category defining ultra-mobile PC into the marketplace that people will truly consider adopting. There are many questions remaining, of course, and it will be interesting to see how Microsoft will address those as they reveal what their vision is...
    I am intrigued and will continue to follow along with great interest.
  • "Microsoft has to wait" They can't. Regardless of what's next, it will take more than just a sinlge company to succeed. If MS sits around and waits, develops a reputation as a means of failure for developers, and drives away consumers, then the next category won't matter. Look at mobile. Microsoft had an idea, but executed poorly with a bulky OS. Then, they waited for the market to mature, only to watch no one care about their efforts because of ecosystem lockdown (thanks to app purchases and familiarity). Then, they missed the boat on tablets, waiting until they got popular to try a Jekyll-and-Hyde Windows 8 (and the nightmarish Windows RT). They need to prepare to start that move from phones, not wait for there to be interest. They might have missed the mixed reality boat by trailing VR with the super-expensive HoloLens, but their partnerships with the Holographic platform might save them. However, as with PCs, it seems MS best exists when it does little with hardware. So, they need to manage to build a great platform and have high-quality hardware makers prepped to support it en masse, because quantity is the winning strategy with MS (like Android). Waiting for the successor to smartphones is foolish because it means watching their brand reputation tank for a few years. Then, when the shift happens, you get the iPad Pro--a terrible device that outsells the Surface Pro on brand name alone.
  • Cart before the horse. We need both continuously updated hardware and software solutions. Microsoft needs to move much faster. Most customers have a short attention span and get bored if they aren't shown something new and improved on a regular basis.
    I'm totally satisfied with my "unlocked" Lumia 950/XL. My phone does "everything" I need it to do, but my life doesn't rotate around apps. I love the updated information and images presented on live tiles. Very convenient, entertaining, and useful.
    Best Wishes
  • Microsoft should go back to the drawing board, and come out with something wowing, or else should forever remain silent.
    Tiles have been rejected by the overwhelming number of consumers.
    Closed OS/ or trying to be Apple without delivering the excitement of IOS has been rejected by the overwhelming number of consumers.
    Cocooning of Apps which is very good security wise, but awful in terms of functionality, operationality, Design and so on, has been rejected by the overwhelming number of consumers.
    Microsoft, give me a versatile, functional, secure, multi tasking capable, programmers' friendly and optically appealing operating system. Not this black and white junk. I as a long time mobile Windows user wants to be wowed again. Please do away with this nonsense of WaaS ugly duckling.
  • Re: Emi Mimo,
    I disagree with your "Tiles have been rejected by the overwhelming number of consumers." phrase. In my opinion, "overwhelming numbers of consumers" either didn't know it existed or were specifically told to buy apple or google. Those numbers of people didn't even try it.
    Best Wishes
  • If that was the reason and Windows phone was actually really good, then word of mouth would have brought some success by now. It would have started small, but if the experience was that great, it would grow. The opposite happened though. The people who did buy Windows Phone didn't particularly like it and didn't continue buying them. Microsoft has yet to surpass the Galaxy S3, let alone the GS8 that is about to be announced.
  • WP8 definitely stood as a point of growth. However, Microsoft let everything fall apart from there. The 920 was succeeded by the 925, the 920 in a metal chassis, and the 1020, the 920 with a giant camera. Then, a year later, they refreshed the line with...a 6" phone with a very limited audience. They didn't get the 930 out until the following July, 20 months after the Lumia 920 launch. The one exception was the ICON, which was stupidly sent to Verizon (a carrier with a bad relationship with MS and no real experience with the platform, like AT&T had), while taking on the Galaxy S5 with a SoC that was a year older. It was a device built to fail. However, when the 920 launched, and the 1020 quickly followed as a "look what we can do" device, there was growth and a chance to succeed. Microsoft just decided to fumble around, and the cancelation of McLaren was the nail in the WP8 coffin (had they not bothered with 3D touch, they could have pushed forward). Your last sentence, I have no idea what that's supposed to even mean.
  • Windows 8 did grow a little bit due to the L520, but all those flagship phones you mentioned didn't sell at all. They didn't bother with making more because they were very poor sellers. I was just saying the GS3 is the phone that put Samsung on the map. Even today they would not be able to create a device that good using Windows Mobile.
  • The mass market was from the 520, but people definitely took notice with the 920, given its design and colors, along with the quality of the camera hardware. Everything sells poorly when it has very limited availability and a fragmented existence like the 920 had (basically existing in 4 variants--920, 925, 928, and 1020). As a starting point on flagships, the 920 was a good phone. If MS had put the 930 on AT&T, and had it release a bit before the Android flagships (as the ICON did, but only on Verizon), progress might have continued.I still dont' get what you are saying about the platform, though. There's nothing about the platform that would stop Samsung from building a device as good as what their Android counterparts are. The problem would be the developers, not the platform and hardware, both of which are as sophisticated as anything you'll find from Android.
  • Samsung couldn't "innovate" with Windows Phone. The best they could do was add some exclusive apps. They could not add new or missing features and they couldn't differentiate their devices from every other Windows Phone. Remember how Nokia struggled to even add a different camera to the L1020 and it was hampered by the poor hardware support offered by WP. They were stuck with the old dual core Snapdragon when all the Android phones were getting the new quad core. Windows Phones at the time were way behind the Android devices because Microsoft was slow to develop and release updates and manufacturers couldn't add anything, they were at the mercy of Microsoft. It is now obvious why they didn't put effort into Windows Phone.
  • >WP8 definitely stood as a point of growth. It did and the reason why is... This was part of Microsoft putting money into Windows Phone. There were TV ads, The top 25 apps were available and there was at least 2-3 models on MOST carriers (low end, Mid line and uppper end depending on carrier). Microsodt was at about 5% at one poinnt... and although they were not paying for apps any more (they paid to get the top 25 apps, devs got some good money for it), there was a time were we were watching more apps coming than going...even this site was WPcentral (Windows Phone Central). At the top of it all...There was a LOT OF hope. The "DOOM" started really happening when Microsoft STOPPED promoting it and claimed "We are not chasing to compete with the top phones, only the business end " (something to that sort) and month after month apps were going away, market share was dropping. Not sure if Microsoft is going to do very well with a SURFACE phone, will sell out to the fans but, general consumers, not a very high % and you know what ? This is 100% Microsoft's fault, there are many things they could of done better and they have done this type of thing time and time and wonder why thye are not successful. They really need to look in the mirror..
  • Windows phones never hit 5% market share worldwide. The highest sales were in Q4 2014 with 10.5 million devices. The market that quarter was 380 million phones. That is only 2.7% and that was the peak sales for Windows Phone. The may have been quarters with slightly more % share, but sales were lower. Those numbers are not sustainable, especially since the vast majority of those sales were the L520. The higher end phones didn't sell at all. Those numbers are really terrible. Microsoft and Nokia didn't drop Windows Phone for no reason, they both knew it was hopeless. It just took Microsoft a bit longer to accept it.
  • They lost momentum when they switched from Windows 7 (on desktop and mobile). Windows 8 was MS pushing what they wanted, not what the consumer wanted, all the negative reporting on Windows 8 undoubtedly affected the mindset of consumers, and it's just carried on declining ever since. No one really makes Windows phones anymore, not seriously (except for HP perhaps). The Alcatel Idol4S is quite nice, but if they weren't able to recycle the device/design in the way they have (Android, Blackberry and Windows versions), then there never would have been a Windows version of the Idol, and probably not a BlackBerry version either. Their only option is to come up with something different & better, another standard 5-6" rectangle is never going to capture the imagination of potential customers now, they need the game changer, and I really hope they can pull it off.
  • This Surface Phone looks like a holy grail. Soon there will be book about it? Surface Bible.
  • Just call it McLaren!
  • Ahh those days. Member?
  • I don't agree with author. MS under Satya is different than ballmer. I mean ballmer wants developers desperately, he wants MS to be Apple/google. As for Satya he wants developers but he know they won't develop by force. So he decided freedom their is nothing to loose so he gave surface team to compete with apple where they think they are best. Surface team got confidence by pro 3 success they out innovating apple at every move they make don't you guys think tablets are been replaced by windows convertable(once there was so many android tablets now even those oems are making windows 10/chromebook). He also made sure to develop tools for developers so if they want to build they can or not fine just remember windows is everywhere. Surface team knows MS software strength. Bottom line surface phone will be released when surface team think they made category defined product not when there are plenty of apps and I'm sure it will support win32. I'm also seeing future where UWP tools will be super rich that it will replace win32 that's what my dear steam guy is shouting.
  • 2018, really?
    No one is waiting for Microsoft anymore.
    They lost momentum six months ago.
    Since then Windows phones are losing thousands of users monthly and one app after the other is being switched off, asking users to jump to iOS or Android if they want to keep using them.
    Why should developers come back to Windows 10 while Android is following the same path as Microsoft - even if not as advanced, but why should they care - and they're already on the popular platform?
    I said it here before and I repeat it:
    If Microsoft wants to remain in the game, it's not in 2018 they need to bring their new device, but before this summer.
    Even tho, I wonder if it's not too late already.
  • Absolutely agree. No time to wait. Mythical phone must cease to be a myth. Otherwise, they can not produce it.
  • "They lost momentum six months ago." What momentum did that have 6 months ago? You're talking last July there, when we knew mobile was getting shafted into 2017 (now 2018). MS hasn't had momentum in the mobile space since 2012, when Nokia got the atention of people with the Lumia 900 headed into WP8, which launcched with a great Lumia 920, which had modern hardware at a low price. That was the last time there was a true effort in mobile from this company.
  • Galaxy S8 is ideal candidate for next big Windows 10 (Mobile?) phone! They bought entire Snapdragon 835 supply :-)
  • Nice one. I would love to see it
  • The real question is, "is 2018 to late for a Surface Phone?"
  • Late and superior is always better than early and inferior. MS please don't destroy the surface brand you took so much time to build. Take your time and get the surface phone right. People will always move to superior platforms when ever they arrive.
  • If Microsoft did "late and superior" well, this wouldn't be a problem, or a discussion. Instead, Microsoft has repeatedly shown an ability to manage the difficult combo of "late and inferior," so the waiting does them no good. How has WP and WM managed being late to the game? Low adoption rates by consumers and developers, slow improvements, hardware that declines in quality, and nothing but disappointments. The Band showed up late, did an OK job, got worse the second time around, in terms of build quality (just like MS and their phone business), and died. MS is great at "late," but until they can prove an ability with being "superior," I'll take the early release over sitting on my hands for disappointment.
  • If that was true, everyone would own a Windows phone.
  • Too soon for 2018? What an absurd question. 2018 will be too late. People that want a Windows Phone before the proverbial Surface Phone comes out- if at all-have only a few choices. If there were more WP choices it wouldn't be that bad.
  • I think this is legitimately comical, but also pretty depressing. They pushed folks aside from WP7 to WP8, and told them the kernel change was the solution. They shoved that into a dumpster and called W10M the answer. They did a bad job of supporting with hardware, while giving unstable, inconsistent software. We got told the 2016 Redstone release was coming to save us. We saw that split into two, as Redstone 2 in early-2017 became the goal. We didn't even make it to 2017 before we started getting "actually, 201..." uttered, but before the "8" even came out to finish the comment, this follows up with "maybe." We're basically getting promised another Lumia 920 disaster, except the starting point (Lumia 950) was worse. Microsoft proceeded to leave folks hanging on hardware for a long stretch (in AT&T users' case, some had to wait 3 years). Now, somehow, there's supposed to be optimism behind "we're gutting the OS again, and you're going to have to sit without attention for 3 years, not the 6 months this started as." I don't see how the platform survives this in a way that leads to long-term success. There needs to be SOMETHING to use within a 3-year span. They can't have missed how many people evacuated as the Lumia 920 got almost nothing in the way of a true successor in the U.S. It killed the platform over here, as the 1020 was the same phone with a bigger camera, the 1520's size was extremely niche, and the ICON was never actually supported by Verizon or available elsewhere. They don't necessarily need to have a Surface Phone (though I maintain using the small, dedicated userbase as a tesbed of hardware would be smart--they have no qualms doing it on the software side via Insider). However, the 950 family wasn't impressive when it launched, so thinking that a 3-year gap does anything other than drive more people off is foolish. If nothing else, un-kill the Lumia line for a year. They don't need to do anything impressive to keep their fans. Take the 950 platform, make it a little bit better (color options, non-creaking chassis, display that doesn't scratch/smudge as easily), throw in the SD820, and go with it. Just stay barely modern, so at least the plstform has modern hardware. I'm not saying they need to do optics work or add fingerprint scanners or anything. Just something with hardware relevant to 2017, not 2015, if you're going to otherwise ignore things until 2018.
  • Killing lumia line was biggest mistake, they have no inventory of Lumia's or any other WPs except for a few countries, they want ppl to go away to IOS and Androids, invest in their ecosystems and come back in 2018, which is not gonna happen, all Google and Apple have to do is to wait for MS to innovate and then copy the product with better consumer features and marketing strategy.
  • I don't think that was the biggest mistake, or even close to it. Starting their takeover with the 830, branding it as a flagship, was much worse. To people like me (who care about hardware specs), it killed the idea of a premium device. It started to show that MS was more about profits than progress, and that was followed by the average hardware in the ICON. Speaking of, sending the ICON to Verizon was also much worse, and the way they handled the 950 family was also a mess. Killing the Lumia line is fine, but only if you have a plan for replacing it. Killing it in 2015, then going silent for 3 years, that's the mistake. If they came back in 2016 with a replacement line of devices, or even did it this spring (about 8 months after the last Lumia), it's not the bad of a move. It's pairing the end of the Lumias with the complete lack of options for W10M.
  • Clearly they don't understand the urgency in the market..
  • I would personally wait. Coming from Nokia mobiles and into the Windows ecosystem I am a proud fan of Microsoft.
    I have to use an android as my work phone, my wife has an iPhone so it's not as if i am blind to the other options available.
    IMO they need to wait and get it right. Yes other companies have similar ideas in the pipeline, but Windows are building to create a whole new genre.
    I am more than happy with my 950. It does what I want it to and more. Ok so I have missed out on Snapchat, Pokémon go, other fads that have come and gone. I would rather think of it as being unique. I am not just another person upgrading for the same model with the new chips, glass or colour. My Mobile is technology not fashion.
  • Exactly. F**ck Snapchat. It's not worth it. Even now that Facebook will bring moments what's unique on Snapchat?
  • Is mid 2017 too late to get uwp apps from developers for missing apps and even for apps that are not uwp?
  • OK. The unicorn theory must be true. The date keeps getting moving every 6 months. MS is saying the phone has to "have a different point of view". What does that mean? MS phones are already different and distinctive. They just don't know what they are doing.
  • Apple and Samsung are going to have major offerings this year. The 10 year anniversary iPhone for sure will draw crowds. I'm pretty much switching as I cant keep continuously waiting year after year after year for MS to change the OS kernel, change the ecosystem, etc. I'm actually getting excited for iPhone 8 as finally I will have all the apps my friend have.
  • I ​think 2018 will be too late. I have already seen developers getting to the point that they don't care if Microsoft is working on something. They want to see it. If Microsoft wants to cultivate an ecosystem they need to do it sooner rather than later because as it stands even large companies are losing interest. Even as "all in" as Facebook is it seems their committement is waivering. Every consumer I speak to, which those same consumers often run businesses, are getting more and more locked into Android or iOS and no longer see Windows as even an option for a regular computer. Even the ones that are buying into the regular Surface line are seeing waivering support from developers are are gradually losing interest themselves. There is a big hole in Microsoft's strategy and the longer they take to fill it, the harder it will be to bounce back. If they don't, they might be relegated to only cloud services. However; even there a lot of execs are starting to show favoritism towards Google and Apple and whatever they make for the cloud because Microsoft is gradually becoming less visible. I think Microsoft has Enterprise for now but ultimately it's the end user that dictates what a company uses. I have seen companies issue crappy Windows laptops instead of good ones and so the staff bring in their own devices, usually MacBooks. After a while the business gives up and uses what their employees use. The same can happy with their cloud services. I have seen poor implementations of large corporations where Office 365 is so inaccessible that employees don't even use it and just use their personal GMail even against corporate policy. I am seeing a surge is Windows 2-in-1s but if Microsoft doesn't start showing a stronger consumer presence their consumer presence could stagnate and then the enterprise sector could easily dry up over several years.
  • I can't wait until this Warton Brooks Windows Phone comes out 😊
  • Guys, do you think the Microsoft read these posts. No way, they don't care.
  • They would have if sites such as WC had called spade a spade, instead they cheered even foolish decisions such a retrenchment and Ms thought they are on the right path and look where we are now.
  • Probably one or more persons that work at MS will read this. Lots of people do work there after all. The question is, are those people in any position to reflect and act upon what is written here?
  • Long term, that is five to ten years out a unified Windows core that spans all form factors is enticing, but not a given as successful on all form factors. Problems:
    1.  "The bad news is that three years from now 80 percent of companies will still be invested in apps. Unfortunately, Microsoft has a hard time getting developers to build Windows apps."​    This represents significant inertia in the smartphone segment that will be very difficult to overcome.  It also represents a high chance for Apple and Google to leverage their ecosystem customers into whatever form factor smartphones morphs into. ​2.  "Later this year Microsoft's partners will begin bringing ARM-based cellular PCs to consumers"​.  I see no real reason not to state that such ARM cellular PC are tablets and will compete in that segment.  Having a cellular component as standard will be a selling point over current tablets, yet the question about app support will still be relevant.  ​3.  "Users will be able to purchase cellular data through the Windows Store to keep these power-efficient, Cortana-enabled Windows PCs always connected."​   Why is the current model of getting cellar data via telecom not mentioned.  Certainly Microsoft is not going to build out a cell network.  We are still talking about telecoms, some tablets will still be bought via one's cell provider and those not bought from them will be added to one's plans via BYOP/BYOT.  The idea that purchasing cellular data via the Windows Store will be a significant driver of engagement with the Store, lacks any explicit support in Mr. Ward's article.   The premise is simply stated and given the current model of purchasing data is not addressed, the point appears quite weak. I can see that having a LTE connection as standard on Windows tablets will be in fact a selling point and will likely increase market share in that segment.  I have significant doubts that such an increase in market share over six months to a year will have a large impact on developer interest sufficient to create an app market large enough or mature enough for a "Surface Phone" Windows 10 on ARM device to have a real splash in the market on release. ​Simply stated that as a Microsoft fanboy and computer nerd I am interested in a "Surface Phone."  That said there are few Win32 apps that I find compelling that I need on a "phone" at this point.   I have little interest in playing Win32 games on such a small display.  It still remains to be shown how well Windows 10 runs on ARM devices. ​Overall Apple and Google have such a lead in the phone segment that it is questionable that even the "creation of a new category" will be sufficient to change the inertia in mobile in Microsoft's favor in the next three to five years.  One Windows everywhere is a great idea but may not suffice to change Microsoft's fate in mobile in the short to medium term.
  • Well said. MS needs to adress exactly these issues. If not, next thing to me is look for an Android that resembles Windows Mobile the most... ☹
  • Exactly. Same goes for me.
  • People should just give up the idea that MS will make a device and suddenly apps will rain. ​App situation will be fixed in time (in years) and all MS needs to do is to keep providing great APIs and development tools and keep supporting the current SDK for a long time. The experience, the knowledge, the know-how does not suddenly appear, developers need time to learn and master the SDKs and Windows 10 app model, so they will learn it and start creating apps and in time they will add many features to their apps so the quality will also improve. No Win32 program we use and love today was created in a few months or in a year. They are the result of constant improvements for several years or even decades (as with Photoshop or 3D Studio Max). We already know there are hundreds of millions of desktop users with Windows 10 machines, so developers already know it is a big, attractive market. People and MS just need to give developers some time and not give up. I think 2018 will be a great time to push mobile market again since the OS will be mature and there will be a lot of apps. I don't know if popular apps like Snapchat will come to Windows 10 by 2018, but there will be a lot of productivity apps that will attract people that want to be productive. So I am pretty optimistic for the future of Windows 10 on all platforms including mobile phones but it will take time (and determination on Microsoft's part) to catch up, not a revolutionary device.
  • "App situation will be fixed in time (in years) and all MS needs to do is to keep providing great APIs and development tools and keep supporting the current SDK for a long time." We're into Year 7. Developers are bailing on the platform more than flocking to it, even as things like Islandwood and Centennial were developed, and as MS acquired Xamarin--and provided it in their dev tools--to make development to the W10 Store easier than ever. What progress has it brought? We're coming up on a decade, and the mobile space looks WORSE for Microsoft than it did in 2010, even before WP7 launched. Microsoft's great APIs, what are they bringing? They got MS software and services onto competing platforms, and they're expanding from Xbox to PC and from AR to VR, but where is the growth in mobile? I don't see it.
  • It has been only 1.5 years since Windows 10 and Windows 10 SDK released. It is pretty different than Windows 8 SDK and massively different than Windows Phone 7 SDK. I had a WP8 app and I needed to rewrite a big portion of it for Win10. Also, we witnessed that WP8 was slowly succeeding, we got more and more apps, more and more users until Microsoft decided to kill it. So it was working. All we need is that Microsoft not killing Win10 (at least the SDK) after 3 years as they did with Win8. They should let it grow even if it is slow.
  • Look at Echo. New device category, new apps (skills). Suddenly in this category Apple and Google are behind and dev momentum is with Amazon. If Surface phone is juat a different screen size of a phone then apps will be a problem. If it is a new device category then there are real possibilities. 
  • Because of a flipping screen? I don't think so.
  • Look at FitBit. Apple sat around and did nothing, then made a fashion statement (Apple Watch), called it a fitness device, and it worked out. Look at Surface, and how Apple AGAIN made a joke devbie (iPad Pro), and people flocked to it. Echo's long-term viability is questionable at best. Unless Amazon can quickly develop an entire home automation system with Echo, it won't matter. If Apple or Google does that first, they've got the core tech with Siri and Google Now to send every Echo to the trash can. Actually, Cortana has this too, if Microsoft wanted to partner with home automation providers for voice-controlled stuff. Every modern phone has Echo in your pocket, so the Echo crowd is the older people who don't use that tech (and won't move the market forward long-term) and those too lazy to carry their phone around the house (who will move to the next-easiest means of automation when it pops up). In fact, a new wrist device could even kill Echo. Full Cortana/Siri/Google Now integration and Internet access (maybe tethered to your phone), with passive listening attached, makes Echo useless.
  • It was a mistake to retrench like they did in the phone business before having definite OEM devices of the right quality and appeal to step in to Mai rain the market share it had that was actually in double digits across Europe and outselling iOS in many places. If said OEM's materialise with decent devices, the users are still there and with the Universal Apps they can make advances ahead of any category defining new device  
  • I don't think it was bad to shift their focus. However, their focus was shifted so sharply that they went from overproducing to simply not producing. Making the 930 extremely limited hurt them. Skipping a year for the 940 didn't help. Then, they FINALLY showed up with the 950, and they botched it. AT&T was probably their biggest ally, in terms of U.S. cellular companies and U.S. customers. People like me, we had to sit with the 920 for 3 years, no way to upgrade but a 1520 that launcched before contracts were up and was so big it wouldn't be proactical for many people. I was happy to get the 950 on AT&T, but then mad when the 950 XL wasn't coming, and madder still when the 950 got a $50 markup going through AT&T. Finally, I was pretty livid to see the Display Dock go free with the 950 XL, meaning I paid more for my 950 and Dock than it would have cost to get the XL and Dock--which weren't available on a contract anyway. That's mostly just a personal rant, though. My point is that a rentrenched approach would have been fine, if that's what they did. Instead, it was basically a full-on retreat, tossing out the 950 as they cleared the horizon, in the hopes it magically fixed everything.
  • and meanwhile in other countries, they basically never released a decent inventory, they destroyed the deep nokia distribution that they inherited, lost customers who were looking to buy WPs and pushed them to android/iphone, now when they come back I'm sure the phones will be of limited availability/limited numbers in a few countries.
  • Well, if this is true, 2018 is too late I think. Maybe at that time only MS apps will stay in Windows 10 mobile world..and maybe also others OS will "emulate" or will have the same alternative than Continuum....
  • Will Microsoft deliver?  No.  
  • And people try to say iOS is better than Windows? http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2017/01/28/apple-ios-10-2-1-touc...
  • Are you saying Windows is bug-free?
  • Looks like iPhones have plenty of problems.
  • Why don't share/spread news when there is actually something "NEW" ?! World is full of patent!   If you didn't build something or can not in near future, just let it be a secret ... 
  • Really, it's because without speculation and vague teasing, they'd have nothing to report on with the platform. When was the last time we got real, factual information on something other than a Preview release?
  • Unfortunately I can't remember a promise Microsoft delivered on time or even delivered !!   Other companies try to tease people by phones (product) they have under testing ... MS, teases people with what they have in their imagination!
  • 2018+, you've got to be joking. The damage to the whole W10 platform it's being done right here and right now. Hardware is a key foundation to the entire strategy, and the hardware vacuum currently in place is sucking the life out of W10m. The App gap gets worse on an almost daily basis as devs leave the ecosystem and take Apps with them.
    MS desperately need to bridge the gap from Lumia to Surface Phone, instead they're happily pushing us to iOS and Android. I doubt many will come back.
  • +950 Lack of mobile hardware is killing both W10M and W10 stores.
  • The right moment was around 2007 and 2008, when iPhone changed the market, Android was a newborn, and HTC was trying to convince people that it's plethora of fancy WinMobile 6.x devices with a cluncky-yet-elegant pseudo-touch friendly skin was the right thing to do. I think that back then, Balmer was yelling "developers, developers, developers..."
  • Seems like you are 100% sure that a surface phone exists.
  • Make Surface Phone + Support App x86 / x64 exe => Perfect Match. Maybe this is the best future for save microsoft. Lol. And maybe can beat Android & iOS market. Please Microsoft -_-
  • How well does that work? Who builds the processor, if you want x86 support? I think Intel's basically bailed on chips that small, and AMD never followed through on it, either. If you want Win32 conversion, like has been planned, the problem obviously becomes getting devs to do the work, while also hoping you have developed a fourth mobile OS correctly, so it can handle the blukier software of traditional applications--or that your bridges are phenomenal at trimming the programs into things usable on phone CPUs. It's easy to say "do it," but it's insanely difficult to actually do it. That's why things are so slow, but that doesn't excuse 3 years of complete neglect.
  • Via chips maybe. LOL
  • Yeah, and even Atom on Surface 3 was showing its limits running Windows, and I don't think they could get something that powerful into phone without a die shrink, and then they'd need to add a modem. Intel doesn't seem to want to do that. 
  • Well, they're expected to have a die shirnk to 10 nm this year, I believe. Even then, they've made some decent improvements from Haswell to Kaby LAke, and AMD's upcoming stuff will hopefully push them again. However, Intel seems to have bailed on the tiny x86 stuff meant for IoT and phones. m3 looks like their starting point for hardware now, and I doubt that could fit in a phone, even a giant one like the 1520.
  • A budget laptop with decent specs frustrates me like hell with slowness, how can I expect a phone to run W32 applications fully. MS vision as it is presented will not work.
  • Ok MS (in consideration of 2018 as the real goal not 2017).  You tell someone in business "if you wait two years you 'might' make money" in return for making nothing for 2 years (2016 was minimal year, 2017 theoretically the same 1-3 devices).  Would YOU continue to fund such a project?  No you would not.  You have not on several occasions.  2016 was a long year of ridicule on the death of the platform.  If you stay silent in 2017 can you imagine the articles that will be written in the holiday season of 2017?  This site might have to rename themselves Windows Periphery. Also remember that if the only things that Dev's have to put their products out on to test in the wild are 2-4 year old hardware designs (with older wifi, bluetooth, many lacking biometrics) you run severe risk of Apps that simply don't work correctly when you come around to your Surface device in 2018.  Again, 2018, 2017, it is all speculation.  But if that's all people have to go on, then decisions get made and that's that.
  • What matters to me is that my current phone runs fine with amazing basic apps (like messaging, phone, contacts, email, calendar, edge, Cortana etc). And also, when my current phone expires/breaks, a new phone is available in the market in around the budget. Both things are impossible right now. There are no new phones in a lot of markets, and in a lot of price range, and also, the basic mobile experience is 'acceptable' but not improving as it should be. All credit goes to MS for not being open about what's going on, what's their plan, and is there any point sticking to the platform or not. The way development on the mobile side is happening, they'll be ready after 2020. You know why? Because they don't care. Simple. Mobile is just a side kick for them. They'll do something when they've got any spare time, and they'll release something when it's ready.
  • A year without windows 10 phones === dead platform...by then MS realises its pretty unnessessary to even put money on a surface phone as other OSes have same features by then, LOL
  • Too late, MS. These are my demands: 1. Give my kids their Minecraft Ender update on WM10, 2. Send public apologies for your horrible mobile strategy, decisions, lies and disrespect of the most loyal and paying customers you ever had. 3. Kiss my feet. And maybe one time in the far future I will have some trust and reconsider buying your mobile product again.
  • When you start with "too late," why would they listen to your demands?
  • I am a Windows user, I use Windows at home and even at work where everyone is using Apple. I have 2 Xbox one's as well. I love the platform. The only disappointment was mobile. Over the last year I was noticing apps that I wanted but couldn't get. I was thinking about moving away from windows phone but just couldn't do it. I saw this near bezel less phone and thought thats nice I hope the Surface phone is like this. I updated my car and my 950xl phone just didn't sync with my car and realising that there is long wait for a new Surface phone, I decided to move to Android Xiaomi Mi Mix. I have all the windows apps I need on this device and wanted to sync with my Windows 10 PC. I'm in Australia and I like Cortana for its syncing but its US only for Android. I worked around this problem by side loading Cortana and it works as well as it did on my 950 xl. My phone also allows me to set up defaults so no issues like the Iphone looking for stock apps. If you are thinking of moving than I suggest Android over IOS. It was a hard decision to move away from Windows mobile but now that I have I do see what is lacking with windows phone and am glad I moved. I will move back if Microsoft's vision of one platform succeeds.
  • "The only disappointment was mobile." You never dealt with the bad parts of MS customer support, then. The Band was a disappointment, and the Elite Controller was, too, as the build quality on each has been less than stellar, and support hasn't been much better, as you get a terrible warranty on the Elite Controller and sometimes argued with by MS employees when trying to replace the Band.
  • I want that phone but it's not sold in the us. How did you go about purchasing it there?
  • I purchased it through a Chinese reseller, I made sure that the celular bands were compatible first, which they are. I love this phone, the best I've had. No complaints.
  • Thanks. Not to get in your personal business but could you tell me how much you spent or a round about amount and what reseller? If not, I understand. No harm, no foul.
  • Gearbest, I purchased the 18k gold 256gb for around $1200 AUD
  • I think they need to somehow create a way to make using win32 apps fun on a tablet. Imagine a tablet you can hold with both hands that has customizable buttons for the thumbs to access on either side of the screen. (think Nintendo switch, but no controllers). These buttons would be virtual on-screen buttons that could be configured to act as keyboard keys.
  • Early 2018 is too late! Microsoft needs to make the difference this year or Samsung will do it.
  • The problem is not on the innovation of the device, it is on the innovation of the software. What will this Surface Phone allow people to do that they can't do already with current devices and "apps"? It has to go beyond chasing after existing Android/iOS apps and services, but rather to create a new platform for new apps and services, or whatever they shall be called. Imagine a operating system in which you can interact simply through natural input: touch, speech and inking, one where your personal assistant is so intelligent and advanced it takes care of 99% of the tasks by itself with 99% accuracy and saves you a ton of time, coupled with advanced holographics in augmented reality. Where everything is seamlessly shared and synced and available wherever you are effortlessly. You know, something that is so fundamentally more advanced than the rest that people will want to adopt it right now and of course where every developer will want to have its service in. Of course this would have to be something spotless and polished, ready for primetime, for instance, without a mess in the contact list like we have currently (Skype/Outlook). Once this kind of software is ready and mature, then the device will follow, just like the iPhone was the vessel to carry the mobile app paradigm when it was announced.
  • Why in God's name would we need to purchase cellular data through the Windows Store? That's just plain stupid. Unless, of course, you think that they are going to abandon the SIM card model.
  • Game developers criticized this model as hell, how does MS expect carriers to allow this to happen, when Ms would be expecting 20% cut of the sales.
     
  • Aw come on, just think about how cludgy MS could make the experience in the Store. Windows 8 store was a nightmare at times with app purchases and installs. I remember how often I'd run into a situation where apps just wouldn't install. I finally figured out that I usually just had to uninstall any random app and then things would work again. It certainly didn't get things off to a good start for me.
  • "Without developer support leading up to Microsoft's game-changing device, the Surface phone is sure to have limited appeal. Microsoft must realize that even in the enterprise users are consumers first and smartphones are personal." Chicken or the egg. Developer appeal will ONLY come from an increased mobile market. Scorpio, holodecks, 800 million pc's; won't make much of a difference in my opinion.
  • "Chicken or the egg. Developer appeal will ONLY come from an increased mobile market." Didn't work when WP8 gained some ground, though.
  • Yes, but they still didn't have a brand or a household name. The only major wp mobile manufacturers were Nokia and 80% of the market didn't even know what a Lumia was. The Surface line does have a lot more recognition. I get why they won't want to ruin it with a half baked device or os, but apps will only start being developed with positive traction.
  • Nokia, even as a diminished company, was a much bigger name in hardware than Surface is, even today. Surface survived because it was both good and on a familiar platform. In the same vein, had Nokia launcghed the Lumia line with Android and their great cameras, they would probably be a legitimate #2 against Samsung in the Android space today (as opposed to the canyon between Samsung and every other OEM). The Surface brand does not have the clout to sell phones to anyone but fans of the mobile platform. It's funny you say they're worried about ruining Surface with bad devices and software, even though they seemed perfectly content to do it to the Nokia AND Lumia lines. Maybe they learned from that, but at the same time, that doesn't mean they couldn't put out a non-Surface device this year to placate the tech-starved fans.
  • True. and they didnt even need to redesign stuff, could have ensured availability of 650/950 worldwide, and brought in incremental hardware updates.
  • MS also didn't have a full ecosystem then. Not many liked windows 8 at the time. Ironically, wp8 was the driving force of app creation then, because no one wanted to make dedicated apps for desktop w8. It's the exact opposite now which is part of the problem.
  • That's because they didn't have vision. However, they did for W10, and what did it bring them? They gave us sub-par hardware, buggy software, and a Windows Store experience that really hurt them with PC gamers. Since then, the PC side has grown, while the Xbox side has been prety neutral and the mobile side has fallen off a cliff. I can't say that the ecosystem is better today than it was when WP8 launched, simply because of how abysmal the state of their mobile division is. They don't even have a mobile OS we can trust to exist in 2018, given W10M sounds like it's dead and how Microsoft royally screwed itself the last time it went after a "full ARM" experience (Windows RT).
  • WP8 didn't gain much ground though. At its peak, Microsoft sold 10.5 million phones which was good for only 2.7% of the market that quarter. That isn't anywhere near enough to command developer attention especially when all those sales were the L520.
  • Yeah, except Microsoft ran over that chicken crossing the road. Then backed up again, ran over again, backed up again and ran over again. I love my Lumia 950 and 650 but, it appears this will be the last Windows 10 Mobile phones that I will be able to get. That and Win10Mo does not have GATT server support yet.
  • This all sounds good but it sounds like Samsung may be moving in a similar direction and thus deny Microsoft the time they need to fully realise this vision. As much as Microsoft's previous Mobile efforts have fallen flat, I think that it was a mistake to basically give up on the consumer market in the meantime because it means that they're now trying to generate developer interest from an even worse position and an even lower confidence level. A small consumer market would have been a better starting point than no consumer market with both users and developers feeling that they have already been burned one too many times. I do hope that Microsoft can pull it off but the obstacles are significant.
  • I said it before and i will say it again Microsoft needs to make 3 Surface smart phones 1=Business Budget Model simular to the Llumia 650. 2=Mid priced Continuum capable smart phone 3=High end Surface flagship. folks there was a report form a chinese agency that checks what factories are making in China that said one the factories that makes the Surface Tablets was making test runs on the manufacturing of at least one model of the Microsoft "Surface Smartphone. Companies Do not Do THIS UNLESS there is a good prototype ready to go into Production. I think we will see a Surface smart phone by september 2017
  • Category defining? Because of a flipping screen? lol, no.
  • MS! Just push Continuum, and push it hard!!! That's the only thing you got. Holographic? Niche. Win32 apps? Only with Continuum. Otherwise I can't think of even 1 I'd want to use on my phone. Foldable screen? Gimmicky. And not very straight forward. Am I on Lumia because of the apps? No, it's a cool OS, that HAD great unique features that are now abandoned.. Feelssadman.jpg
  • Honestly? No, it's too late. W10M is dying and Surface Phone has been a legend for too long that time. There are guys working on Android Continuum out there and if they do it first, no one would bat an eye. Why though. If your Samsung can do all of this stuff...
  • It also heats and explodes.
  • Well, they one thing we don't have to worry about with the Surface phone. It runs so cool it's like it isn't even there.
  • 2018 or later?!? It makes no difference when the food shipment arrives if the village has already starved to death.
  • Where's a like button when you need one?
  • Yeah, I don't know how anyone can consider a near total lack of W10M devices on the market is somehow a good sign for any new device. MS has ground consumer interest of W10M to practically nothing, so another rebooted mobile device after such a drought won't exactly bring excitement from developers.
  • Ok. Then they should atleast build another Lumia for the fans. In fact, it should be Lumia 650,950 and 950 XL.They should upgrade the hardware, just like they did with the Surface book. This will keep fruitfulness alive. So, we should expect 2017
    Lumia 550 650 , 950 and 950 XL. Please Microsoft since these are the last Lumia's just upgrade them this year. Thank you.
  • Im still waiting for a Surface Mini.
  • Do you guys take pleasure in torturing yourselves with the Surface Phone? I mean, first you spend a year discussing a non-existent device to death, then once the device looks like it's actually nearing an official unveiling you switch and instead begin hypothesising about why the phone likely won't get here until we're all old and grey. To me, it looks like Microsoft will announce the device sometime between March and October. And I don't freaking care about this stupid "app gap". It's just fabrication. 90% of Android and iOS apps are pure junk, inventing problems to solve where there are none. The rest are either on Windows already, or available as web apps. For the Surface 'Phone', all we need is a great, flexible device, SIM-card LTE capability, and raw power. A mix of UWAs, 32-bit programs, and web apps will do the rest.
  • Most people don't realize that 99% of "news articles" and tech reviews are paid for by companies. We hardly ever get a real review of say iPhone because of this. If we did the iPhone camera would be thought of as "one of the best" we all know that the L950 camera puts it to shame but sadly most people don't know that.
  • Yes , you are absolutely correct. I am using Lumia 930 as a second phone , camera is unbeatable. It's same as DSLR. Even way better than iPhone 7 .
  • Have you used iphone 7? WC put iphone to test along with lumia 950 & samsung s7 and the winner wasnt lumia
  • or better yet the iPhone 7+. That's the real IPhone camera.
  • Even if 90% of the apps are junk, that leaves the other 10%, which are valuable and people actually use. Sure, you don't NEED those apps to get on in life, but that's also like saying your car doesn't need air conditioning or a stereo in order for you to get to work. People like conveniences, and apps bring conveniences not found on mobile websites. Even the stat that says people only use 6 apps 91% of the time doesn't mean much, as many apps of convenience don't need to be open for hours in order to do their jobs. For example, how long do you need to have your mobile payment app open to complete a transaction? 20 seconds maybe. Airline app? Bank app? Rewards app? They all contribute in small but meaningful ways to the user experience.
  • The writers here expect bots to take over, so if you would be shouting at your phone all the time :P
  • Re: Gustav A,
    I agree with your comment about apps. The people I know with apple and google phones only really use a few apps. Really it's email, text, internet browsing, news and a game primarily. Admittedly, these are working adults. (Someone has to work and earn money.)
  • Apps, ha! Things are changing like they always do. Soon there won't be apps but super apps that do many things, so you can replace your 357 apps with 5 or 10. Look at what WeChat is doing not to mention Facebook. Then there are bots. Have you ever wondered why Skype is adding bots and sms massaging? Then there is Cortana, Alexa. They are doing more and more and in a year or two could replace most of the apps on your phone. VCR's didn't last and neither did CD's and so apps will not either. Oh and I'm pretty sure we'll soon have all devices come with a sim that you will have one number for all devices, your pocket computer, your home computer, car and everything else you own. It will be your ID, your bank, your passport, your medical history, drivers license, ........ And say goodbye to WiFi and hello 5G
  • BIG maybe. In order to get things done, you can't rely on AI/bots. It can't paint a picture or write a note. Therefore, AI/bots could compliment apps, but never replace them fully.
  • Re: aka user-774,
    Also, I don't see AI/bots or apps replacing professional software used by professionals.
  • Bots won't be replacing professional software, but it will be on your phone. Bots and super apps will be making your calls, sending messages, photos and videos, ordering your pizza and booking your flight and taxi, buying your food and anything else you need, doing your banking, making a dentist appointment, telling you the weather. All this could be done by one super app and Cortana. Which will also turn your lights off and lock your door. You will have full Windows and full Photoshop or any other professional software. I know it's mindboggling but so are smart phones if you're over fifty. That's some straight up Star Trek sh*t.
  • They couldnt even get cortana to all countries.
  • I'll be happy 😊 when it comes out
  • The always-connected ANYTHING will remain a pipe dream for some time. In order to make money, carriers will continue their current business model and it will continue to be cost-prohibitive to be always-connected.  Most cannot afford the huge costs of data plans as it is.  We pay upwards of $240 per month the shared plan we currently use.  So, tell me how Microsoft believes their hopes confidently rest on convincing everyone that the Next Big Thing from them is worth it?  I've been so disappointed in everything Microsoft does now that I truly doubt they will come out with a device, much less anytime soon enough for anyone to care, even LESS that it will be a device with features people will get excited about.
  • Wow ScubaDog you know what I pay for my unlimited data plan in Moscow Russia? $10 a month and that includes unlimited free calls to anyone on the same network in the whole country on 4G! Russia has 9 time zones! Cigarettes are $1.50 and not bad vodka is $3.50 for a half liter! A flat tax of 13% and free health care.
  • Microsoft themselves can counter this with the offering of data sold from the store. That depends on how the work our their pricing but with last years talk of their own sim they could undercut the carriers in the USA and solve your problem. Generally for the rest of the wold we don't seem to have this issue. I pay £7.99/ mo in UK for unlimited talk and text and 2GB data. I can ramp that up for not much more easily but I don't really need any more yet as I rarely go over 1GB..
  • Too late!
  • MSFT thinks they are playing this game alone, we do not know what Apple and Samsung have in mind for 2018, the only thing for sure we konw they are no spectators, i think MSFT have no idea of what "timing" is.
  • Surely if the cart is running full Windows 10 it already would have billions more horses than any other cart on the market??? Running any full software that Windows 10 pcs run. Right back to the early 90s? Want an emulator to play Final Fantasy 7 properly? It exists on Windows 10 pc. Meaning it would exist on Surface Pocket. Why would apps matter? When the full proper software is available to the user? Pc edition of groove on Windows 10 kills the app versions on any device. For example. Apps were designed because when Iphone first came out they couldn't run full programs. Or full OS. That game completely changes with full Windows 10 on a pocket device. I know 10 or so Android users who would ditch that platform in a heartbeat for a full Windows 10 pocket device that makes calls and messages. The sooner this happens, the faster we can leave mobile Operating systems behind.
  • Very true but somehow people still think they're going to need apps. I still can't figure out why anyone would need a YouTube app? I tried some and they just seem silly when I can just pin the site to my start screen. I asked my wife why she didn't download the Facebook app and she said "what do I need it for when Facebook has a mobile version?"
  • @bebochek; Exactly and funny thing is I own a Android phone and with all the apps I still go to the Youtube site via browser online. I am saving my pennies and quarters to come back to wp an early phone which I owned and love was by HTC  with wp7 of which I think and still believe those live tiles were and is outstanding innovation/idea for a smartphone.
  • Sadly, the mobile versions of many sites, like Facebook are crap.
    Also, I would be concerned for the future of Live Tiles, it would mean developers would need to put more code to support that. News websites would be one example.
  • even MS hasnt enables transparent tiles on its apps, that how lousy Ms is and it expects developers to take the lead and support them.
  • The biggest problem I see with articles like this is they are looking at a Surface Phone as a mobile device with a Mobile OS. Not a PC device that fits in your pocket. Windows 10 PC has more software available for it than Android can even dare to grasp. And the software has way more functionality than a simple app. So if a Surface Pocket has that how is Android going to compete no matter how foldable someone makes an Android device?
  • again...stop with the PC software. The surface phone on a 5-6" screen needs MOBILE APPS!! that's the first thing users want! not PC apps to run via continuum that is practicaly useless for most having already a laptop! When I'm in my car and want to check a local store offer, or make a bank transaction I need an APP!! not a damn browser crap website or? I should carry a screen,mouse and keyboard in my car? :)) please stop being pathetic. without mobile apps any surface phone will be DOA! Fanboys have hoped the same way before aniversary update, the same before X3, the same even before UWP..and hoped in vain! nothing has changed! devs leave this pathetic and full of lies platform.
  • someone ppl are too drunk on the pocket pc koolaid, x32 apps would look and feel horrible on mobile screen and UWP isnt going anywhere anyways so thats out of picture
  • Have you even tried using Win32 apps on a phone sized screen?
  • And to be honest the apps are far worse for privacy. When you install the App they get access to all your stuff including your contacts, photos, music, camera, microphone etc. Even wehen the app isn't running. Why give away all of that if there is a web/mobile site that doesn't have access to every inch of your life..
  • See my above comment...websites cannot do mobile things.
  • Yes facebook has a mobile version and it lacking greatly compared to the IOS and Android Apps. To bad your wife is held back by you insisting on windows phones. she would be pleasantly surprised by the IOS or Android app version of facebook as my wife was.
  • You really think the full desktop Groove app is going to be a good experience on a 5" screen!? Full Windows is not going to drive mainstream sales at all. It will do the opposite. Consumers will run from it.
  • What do you mean? Groove Music is a UWP.
  • Then there is no advantage to it also running on desktop. That isn't a selling point and doesn't make the app more powerful compared to other mobile apps.
  • Are you serious? So you haven't been paying any attention to the Surface phone patent designs? With the fold out larger screen? Stop thinking like Phones in their current form are all it will ever be. MS missed the smartphone era. But they are in Prime position for a Pocket PC era. With the only OS capable of ARM now. People didn't expect MS Surface team to pull off something like the Surface Pro. Then blow Apple away with the Surface Book. And then again the Studio. The Surface team is incredible. And they have just showcased to the world full Windows 10 on ARM. They jumped the curve. And will surprise you with what's about to happen in the little world of your pocket.
  • You haven't paid attention to Apple, Samsung and LG getting those same patents? Samsung and LG will be the ones making the panels. Samsung will keep their initial displays for their own phones. Microsoft and Apple will need to buy their folding displays from LG who is said to be willing to sell them and not keep them for their own hardware. At best Microsoft might be able to get them the same time as Apple, but I would bet Apple will get priority as they can guarantee way more sales. Samsung will probably beat them all. Microsoft doesn't have any advantage here. Dude, every platform other than Mac runs on ARM. How can you say only Windows is ARM capable? I don't think you understand what ARM is. The only thing it will bring to PCs is lower performance compared to Intel and better battery life. It isn't going to be revolutionary. It will probably be bad at first due to the performance hit compared to Intel chips.
  • What good is a foldable phone on Android or IOS???? The idea of the extra screen space is to run a full Windows 10 desktop on an Arm mobile device. If its running IOS or android on a foldable device its a gimmick. It's still the same Mobile OS with the same limitations vs a full desktop OS. The advantage to Surface Pocket is its an actual PC with billions of software available. Instead of crappy Mobile edition games, you can run Steam and play hundreds of thousands of games. PC version of Hearthstone for example. The only way Google or Apple can compete with that is to either make a full OS which let's face it would have next to no software support compared to Windows. Apps are irrelevant if Full Windows 10 hots with Surface Pocket.
  • windows on anything but the laptop/desktop is crap! Tablet experience is pathetic! because ZERO APPS optimized for tablet mode: TOUCH! Or you think it's fun to tap the small menus intended to be clicked instead? For real, you clearly have ZERO knowledge about how a tablet shoud work. Full windows on a foldable 5-6" device is useless because on such small screen you need APPS!! I don't give a damn about continuum, I do not need to carry or to hope there is a monitor,keyboard and mouse where I would need them. For such I have a decent laptop. For mobility in hand I need a damn smartphone, not a pocket computer with ZERO mobile APPS!
  • You think a Surface pocket won't come with a built in Pen???? I use Windows 10 on a 10" tablet in desktop mode everyday. Never once had any issue of struggling with my pen. A Mobile PC with a small 5-6" screen on front for quick sms or calls etc and a foldable 10-12" screen inside with a pen is pure perfection. The quicker we get away from limited apps the better. I guarantee you all the android users I know who play pocket Minecraft as an example would absolutely switch to a pocket device that plays full and proper Minecraft. Or has access Steam PC games like Hearthstone. Torrents, emulators the list goes on of things that Windows 10 just smashed Android at.
  • There is not a single mainstream Windows Program left. You can not name a single one that doesn't have a mobile replacement or isn't niche professional software. Legacy Windows Programs will not drive consumer growth. Hearthstone is already available on Android and torrents work just the same as on Windows.
  • Oh boy!! your imagination has been to places where even MS hasnt reached. WoA is still in prototype, you assume that your smartphone will be powerful enough to do all the stuff which someone would do on their 1000$ dollor laptop, let me give you a reality check, pick up a cheap netbook and see what tasks it can handle, thats at most snapdragon 835 cana handle. and not to say pc apps(not the UWP ones) will look and feel horrible on mobile screen.   also by the way WoA is nothing but W10M with an "emulator" for win32 apps, emulator can not match native experience.
  • It's not even here yet. Firstly MS are way ahead of both Apple and Google at bringing a full OS to ARM. Secondly Qualcomm are now 100% committed to Windows 10 on their chipsets. Over the next 5 years the chipsets will get more and more compatible and much more efficient. Google would have to build a completely new OS that competes with Windows 10. And even then not a single piece of software will be on it from day 1 of its release. Apple could bring OSX over but they are clearly at least 5 years behind. I've witnessed Windows 10 on the older snapdragon 830. And it ran really well. On the 835 that will be even better. What might a Surface pocket 2 or 3 run like on a snapdragon chipset 2 generations ahead of 835? MS said they are aiming ahead of the curve. The last 3 years they have been laying ground work for this. They knew they were late to the Mobile OS era. But they got ahead of the curve for the Pocket PC era. Nearing the Keynote later this year in Novemebt we will start to hear rumours of the announcement there. And I fully expect they will say it goes on sale that week as they did with Xbox One S. MS did the impossible and put Xbox right back in the game. Against all naysayers they stole the tablet market and changed the way people view tablets. Making Surface the fastest growing tech brand over recent years. Don't right off the incredible team that is the Surface team.
  • omg....physics says your foldable screen with eventually break.....i cant believe people think that will ever work. They couldnt even keep the rubber band on the band 2 from tearing lol.
  • The exact same good that a windows 10 mobile foldable device is. That's what!
  • Only fanboys over here have pocket pc and mobile os.... All others have mobile os.. You think of win10 arm as pocket pc that every program you want can run but let's be honest the reason you are thinking like that is due to the fact that there are no apps currently for your os of choice to perform such activity... Others in androis have all the programs (apps) meaning that they already have the pocket pc you are taking about... So the smartphone is a pocket pc already except if it runs windows.. And this brings to the point that with the surface phone MS is still playing catchup and not category defining device that most of you think
  • No App on any mobile device has as many features or runs as smoothly as its pc counterpart software. He'll even news apps are rubbish next to the actual pc full internet sites. Apps were and are a workaround for mobile Operating systems. Not the future.
  • Really? Name one before I name all the apps with superior features or mobile only apps. Not to mention most of modern technologies come with mobile only configuration softwares/apps
  • BBC. Not one single BBC app on Android, Windows mobile 10 or IOS comes close to matching the visual, usability or speed of the Windows 10 pc internet experience. Adobe Photoshop is missing a whole chunk of user features on all Mobile OS. Groove, Outlook, all of them i could list over 3 billion software programs that Mobile OS can't match. Can you get Steam on Android? Full Windows 10 on a Pocket PV with Steam running Hearthstone proper? Or full Minecraft? Torrents done properly and what about emulating for example Final Fantasy 7 properly? Literally Android hasn't got anything. Not 1 thing remotely close to a PC. So to put a proper PC in your pocket with full Windows 10??? Android could not touch it in flexibility, usability visual customisation.
  • Steam wouldn't be good on a 5" screen and neither would photo shop. There is a reason they don't have them available. The BBC app is just fine and so are torrents. Being able to run desktop software, which I am sure Microsoft won't allow on a phone UI, will not sell a phone even if it can unfold into a tablet. Android and iOS will own this area because they already have phone and tablet apps that scale to screen size. Microsoft doesn't.
  • Don't even try to bring sense into a fanboy. They clearly have zero understanding about mobile apps.Wish them luck running a win32 app on a 5-6" screen, or being pathetic ear talking with a 7" device :)) while struggling to decipher a menu on such screen. While we enjoy on the go full featured apps on other platforms, they will be always on the run for a monitor to hook upd their surface phone pocket pc to use continuum...
  • Keep hearing this. Seems like your forgetting the foldable screen. Something gimmicky on an Android device. But on a Surface Pocket would open up to providing a nice 10 or 12 " screen. Perfect for the age of a full Windows 10 desktop. There's absolutely no comparison and no way in the world Android can compete.
  • Windows doesn't have touch apps for a 10" touch screen.
  • Unh? I use a 10" tablet with a pen. And use it in full desktop mode. No issues. And it works flawlessly. Why wouldn't a Surface pocket have a slide in and out pen like the Nintendo ds had for use in open folded mode? The front 5" screen you could use for your finger to quick type sms or make calls or quick post Facebook. Your all thinking way to small. The ds touch screen was smaller than pretty much all smartphones today. Yet had better accuracy and smaller icons than any smartphone app. All due to the touch pen device.
  • One small point you may not have considered. Unless the phone it going to fold into fourths, the largest foldable screen you could get given current phone sizes is about an 8" screen. A 1:1 unfolded screen aspect ratio will give folded sizes close to todays phones (eg Galaxy Note 7) 1:1 screen aspect ratio (square screen): folded phone screen size  5.5"x2.75" Unfolded screen size 7.8"  A 10 or 12" unfolded screen would require a folded phone the size of an ipad mini.
  • Go do some research, this is a UWP app, it is the exact same app on desktop as phone already. The app just knows which device it is on and formats its layout accordingly. And before anyone says, ooh but then developers need to code for it, its really easy. Took me a couple of hours to get it and very little development time in the scheme of things but enables Apps to run on Desktop, Mobile, Xbox, Hololens and iot, all at once. One App, one store, nice and efficient, just like us programmers like...
  • UWP aren't desktop apps. They are scaling mobile apps. They have no advantage over other platforms as the OP was claiming.
  • I don't get your point, UWP certaily are desktop apps the only thing they aren't is Win32 applications bu thten that is the point! How is developing once and deploying everywhere not considered an advantage?
    This is currently the only ecosystem where this is possible!
  • how many developers have embraced UWP? it has failed to take off, not denying the advantages but still it failed to take off. why??   because of retrenchment. without sizeable mobile share there is no incentive for the developers to consider UWP.
  • I don't know how many developers there are, do you? Where is your evidence that it has failed? UWP is still very young, APIs are improving all the time. I am able to create new apps much faster than it used to take me and it is easier to keep them consistant.  You are talking mobile Apps not full applications where you need to consider that UWP is global across the ecosystem. Mobils is not everything! I don't care what the latest way to stick a dog nose on my face is. I care about apps that helps me get my work done and improve the productivity of our office. That is something Android and iOS are totally useless for in my world and there will be a whole host of developers in the same boat that will natually transition to UWP as it improves and they need to either create new programs or overhaul old ones.
  • Websites do not do what apps do. No matter how loud the fanboys scream, apps are not needed....its just false. Your website on your phone cannot unlock hotel doors, turn lights on in your home, or control your music systems.....APPS are always going to be here, and used extensively. Apps are needed for any mobile ecosystem to survive. If you think otherwise, you live in dreamland.
  • Touche!
  • You seem to have your head in the sand Richard. APPS are HUGE in mobile for a reason. They do things Computer Programs CAn't. All Large software programs are written to be used in a static location. NOT MOBILE DEVICES. So I agree with you on the "SURFACE" pun intended, that sotware programs are more powerfull than apps. HOWEVER, ON a mobile device, it can be said that Apps are extremely more powerful than full windows software. Full windows software cannot start your car on a cold morning, unlock a hotel service, deposit a cheque in your bank account, I can go on and on with the usefulness of apps vs. software.......and vise versa....an app cannot professionally do video or photo editing or high end music production. CAD is off the table as well. So, in mobile there will always be apps....if you think otherwise, you just sit in your home, look at your phone there like you would a computer. Just like apps are useless on a desktop for most things.....If you think otherwise, you do nothing powerful with a computer. IT's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the mentality of Mobile first-Cloud first entails. NADELLA got it wrong in many ways there.
  • I don't believe Surface phone will do anything to boost Windows sales. It's a lost battle.
  • Too early? 2018?? It might be to LATE now. To many starts, stops and resets. Many of the WP faithful have left. Myself included. They have to do something now. If the Surface Phone isn't coming anytime soon then M$ needs to get something out there. A great phone that the mainstream will want. We've the 950/XL should have been. And for the love of all possible f*ck we need apps and we need then yesterday.
  • You won't need but 5 apps once full Windows runs on your phone. All you'll have at home is an OLED screen that sticks to your wall and it won't have to be "smart" the smarts will be in your pocket.
  • That does not sound like a very practical usage scenario. Smartphones have taken over as people's go-to device for a reason--they are very portable and readily available. An OLED screen stuck on a wall requires the user to sit right in front of it to get any value. And I also don't think that most people will care to run full Windows on a phone. How many full software programs do people even run anymore, and would a phone be good enough to power them?
  • users want a capable smartphone!! a damn 5"-5.5" .." phone size device! not a pocket pc! Many already use a decent laptop, they don't need a screen, keyboard, mouse etc to hook up a phone with way less power than a laptop! you fanboy said the same pathetic thing when MS presented continuum. Has it succedded to gain big trust and usage?? NO as it seems...stop dreaming, it's because of you fanboys kissing MS a$$, that they do not give damn...as long as you keep defending every piece of trash they launch, nothing will improve.ever!
  • YOU won't need but five apps bebochek.....Me on the other hand...use 50 regularly out on the go while travelling.
  • Name them
  • Five-One-Three!!!! apple music, RBC mobile (deposit checks etc, cant do it on windows), Yellow pages (windows version very outdated), evernote, Sirius XM (Canada app does not work), RBC wallet, Air Miles, Square payment, Weather Network (windows version flakey on mobile), Texture (windows version does not load on any device), Pintrest, Canadian Tire, EBAY, Tim Hortons (windows version you cannot order), CBC News (windows version no updates to news), MEC, Disney World, Sea World, Busch Gardens, West Jet (Windows is just a web wrapper with no function), AIr Canada (again, just a web wrapper with no function), SPG hotel (unlock hotel room, guest services etc all from app), Shoppers Drug Mart, PC Plus, Canadiens App, Here We Go, (WIndows maps are not updated and have limited functionality compared to this), Zomato (windows app not updated), Bay News 9, Mint, ReeBee, NL Classifieds, Shomi, Ebates, Esso Extra, Speedpass+ Sobeys, Kijiji, Autism Parenting, Wayfair, Canada Post, Columiba take ten, Columbia What KNOT to do, Lose it, Paypal, doki, Mun Mobile, My radar (windows mobile app is crappy), Roku, Coast 101, Sportsnet (windows version is very outdated and lacking features) Facebook (again, windows version is greatly lacking features), VOCM, Indigo, IHG (windows is yet again just a web wrapper with no function), National car rental (same goes for this one....windows version just a web wrapper), Cora, McD's, Boston Pizza, ETC....there are some that HAVE windows equivilants so I left them OUT of this list.....Again, Apps are windows mobile's downfall.....NO full running windows device will help because using the website is on advantage on mobile....you do not have the functionality that apps bring to the table. You cant make or take payments, unlock hotel services, unlock rental cars etc. Just how it is....so this MYTHICAL surface phone....is not going to be any better than even current windows 10 mobile devices. Sorry!
  • whoa...lot of writing :) I imagine a fanboy wanting to search for a hotel booking: "Oh wait, do you have a monitor? and a mouse and a keyboard? ... damn this bluescreen :)))"
  • Just giving the fanboy what he wanted. An answer to his question. He thought I was going to not bother..but I am not developing windows 10 mobile. But that is just some of the apps and functions that make both android and IOS more useful in various ways than Windows mobile.
  • Could have sworn I said something like this a while back. Lol
  • I mean its too late...Its too fricking late !!!
    ​Mobile 1st they said...
    ​ITS OVER for MS, no way they will survive in future...
  • Nah, MS is diversified, they will continue on, even if they don't have mobile. They might be mostly stuck in Enterprise spaces with cloud services and Office 365, but they still rule the roost there. 
  • @tic9711; It's never to late unless the mobile market is going out/dissolving you can enter the mobile market any time and at mostly any point outside of a economic collapse. Microsoft never kept up with the basics of wp on the market like updating their flagship products. We can only imagine the 1020 on todays processors and other hardware/software advances. 1520 consumers who want a bigger phone with new processors and 950 was perfect for everyone else and all supported by one of the best smartphone staff around acquired from Nokia unfortunately for us were let go.
  • They are mobile first....they are mobile on IOS and Android, where the users are. Where INCOME is. They knew that windows mobile was being flushed down the toilet when they did w10m. They saw users leaving, so to curtail losses...they released their services on IOS and Android. Income streams resumed on an upward climb, in the mobile sector. SIMPLE economics. Fanboys are such a miniscule blip on Microsoft's radar they don't care.
  • This is the issue which is why I disagreed with Microsoft cutting the Nokia staff who were growing the Lumia market and as Microsoft's grand plan come to fruition they become the pathway and also serves as the inspiration for the developers for the development of WM/WP which in no telling where the growth of wp would be now if they were still in support.  It only magnifies as we go further down the road not having developers who are not seeing a growing are even a market  as it further drops with scant wp on the market. With no doubt Nokia was one of the most experience staffs around. It's Microsoft who chose ignorance over wisdom and even though it's a self created problem yet problems can be solved.  
  • There aren't going to be any more phones. It will be a computer.
  • this will probably end up being another case where Ms is last to the gate.
  • I'm thinking 2020. Until then, keep what you have until they fail then look at alternatives. If whatever Microsoft delivers is worth a look, we should look then. That's it.  I'm looking at a great experience with Windows 10. Its looking good.
  • That's one reason I bought a new L650 dual sim when my L730 dual sim with Windows 10 still works ok. It's going on three years now and I'm pretty sure I can get another year or two out of it. The 650 is just a fabulous phone though and I get a lot of, "yeah that's a beautiful phone" from people.
  • Why surface phone will fail. Because MS keeps stressing they want to come up with a reference device that will insipre OEMs, well it was true for laptops, 2in1s and desktops, but there are no oems for mobile all they can do is "inspire" Android OEMs to copy and bring the product along with android ecosystem, like whats samsung is suggesting to do with continuum and they will hit a homerun.
  • Can you bring full Windows 10 to an Android device?
  • Noone needs to bring a full windows 10 device to Android. not everyone needs a windows 10 in pocket, ppl need a pocket pc to do "PC like" tasks, thats why Samsung's note range is a craze amongst users, now samsung is rumored to brig continuumesque feature to S8, thats all the users would need.
  • So let me get this straight you don't think a full Windows 10 pocket device would not win over Lot of consumers. Even though not 1 single app has anywhere near the full functionality of any Windows 10 software??? Nothing on Android is complete. Not 1 single app has the same user functionality as a full Windows 10 program. Imagine having Steam on your Pocket Surface. With access to hundreds of thousands of games that the Play store can't remotely match. Because the Play Store is limited to games that run on a limited mobile OS. Or true proper Emulators of which hundreds are available to choose from. Final Fantasy 7,8 or 9? You can emulate them on Full Windows 10 perfectly. Torrents and its programs running as they should. Not the limited crap on Android. Full Windows 10 means full Windows 10. Literally anything is possible on Full Windows 10. Age Of Empires 2? Yep. Full Photoshop? Yep. Full Minecraft? Yep. Pocket PCs are the future. Not Limited mobile Operating systems that have already hit their usable limit. Google need to create an entirely new Operating system. They have to take on Full Windows 10 or will get left behind. Sure to some a mobile OS and just posting on Facebook app is enough. Bit many many Android users are tech heads. And will ABSOLUTELY switch to a device that gives them full control and full access to everything. I already know so many Android users who use PCs everyday. And all of them are stoked hearing the news of full Windows 10 on ARM. That is called being ahead of the curve. Not just continuum of a mobile OS on a bigger screen. Its the limited Mobile OS that's the issue.
  • As I said u hv no idea, no point arguing. This is what i have said in another reply:  WoA is still in prototype, you assume that your smartphone will be powerful enough to do all the stuff which someone would do on their 1000$ dollor laptop, let me give you a reality check, pick up a cheap netbook and see what tasks it can handle, thats at most snapdragon 835 cana handle. and not to say pc apps(not the UWP ones) will look and feel horrible on mobile screen.   also by the way WoA is nothing but W10M with an "emulator" for win32 apps, emulator can not match native experience.
  • Already answered that. The short answer is mobile Chipsets are always improving. It was a matter of time till they caught up to be able to run Full software. And that is only going to increase year by year. Of which only Windows 10 is currently placed to be the same across all devices. Qualcomm are now 100% committed to making Windows 10 run well on it. And MS is committed to making full Windows 10 run on ARM. The first Iphone sold less than 10 million in its first year. IPhone 2 was more than 30 million. The start is the start. But they are positioned better than google ( who only have a mobile OS ) and Apple at pursuing this era. It's not a case of a pocket PC competing with a Smartphone. Because its a different era, a different device. Same as Iphone was different from the previous mobiles which also had apps and games.
  • The entire point of a mobile device is to do thing while mobile.....Fully functioning windows 10 on a mobile device does not make it better....because windows 10 as an OS was never designed to be truly mobile. if it was, APPS would be there. being able to run A full version of office, or autocad does NOT a mobile device make....being able to do things like payments, purchases, unlock items, etc are mobile device items. NOT Design a structure on the move. Fanboys need to realize this. I think running full windows on a mobile device will work for exactly the amount of people that continuum will work for and that is proving to be about 0% of users! Continuum is a flop just as full blown windows will be a flop on mobile because its NOT for mobile use.
  • WEWT! downvotes for the truth....I love them!
  • That is what fanboys do.
  • I know myfyp2. It like they are 3 years old, and if you say something that is correct and true about their beloved Windows mobile, the just run around with their fingers in their ears screaming LA LA LA LA LA I can't hear you....instead of actually listening and seeing whats going on.
  • Have fun trying to run thos on the current batteries out there. Even on arm you'll be stitting a plug in somewhere. Until 5g comes around your gameing will blow remotely and 5g is still a few years out.
  • if this Chris guy is their chief marketing officer, no wonder their marketing sucks. He thinks hololens was sufficiently marketed, and he admitted or was rather surprised to hear feedback from Mary Jo tht ppl think MS is quiet abt hololens.
  • MS should have bought Cyanogen and made their own, Google-free Android.  They're embracing Linux everywhere else (Azure, SQL Server on Linux, PowerShell on Linux, .NET being open-sourced...).  Windows is dying and not just mobile.  There's a reason they say Windows 10 is the last version of Windows!  I'd love an MS-flavored Android with MS services and live tiles (and, most importantly, Google-free).  Once DirectX is ported over, Windows is done.
  • Windows isn't done don't worry. It's not dieimg I use it every day.
  • It's to late. Don't think I will buy. It. Unless it has snap chat.
  • Well, If apps such as: banking, proper facebook and messenger, decent weather apps, local apps, office related tools apps and 1000% improved battery life I might consider it, though MS has failed to maintain trust! 3 times!!
  • Exactly. As a consumer going forward my money needs to be spent for value. Not dreams.
  • useless anyway. No apps, no users! Surface Phone will do ZERO!
  • Hope it's not a museum piece when it finally arrived.
  • I like the direction MS headed to and also their vision but I am worried about the time. Really speaking 2018 seems too soon and 2020 too late, too much for an average joe like me to grasp. But on the other hand, I think when it happens doesn't really matter if they can hit with that bang, if they can bring a revolution. If it's 2020 I think by then WinMob will most probably be in grave and what needed will be a resurrection. I can live with my 950 till then no doubt albeit with a sort of depression.
  • 2018 is not too early for Surface Phone if they advertise it well and release free developing tools early.
  • "...our mental model has to be not just building another device" Microsoft's mobile policy has definitely been mental of late.
  • Whatever MS has planned for AI or BOTS, if they are next big thing, then you can be sure that Apple & Google will ready to match them. Probably even before the release of any Surface phone.
    Also it's not just the lack of apps, but also the quality of them. Some don't get updated for months on end or missing key features/buggy or it does get an update and it's no different.
  • Some things MS should do before this:
    1.) Minecraft Windows 10 Edition on Mobile
    2.) Sway on Mobile
    3) A UWP Beam app for PC and Mobile
    4) A UWP LinkedIn app for PC and Mobile
    5) NightLight on Mobile
    6) Xbox One streaming to Mobile
    7) Custom color picker and all the other PC only goodies for the Creators Update on Mobile
    8) Filtered messages in the UWP Mail app (PC and Mobile)
    9) Interactive Live Tiles
    10) A ton of bugfixes
    +1) Project Neon has to look good :D
    Etc etc etc...
    So shortly: Strengthen that ecosystem :D
  • Does Microsoft need to do that on mobile if their "surface" phones run Windows 10 on arm? If Windows 10 has all that and they are making a continuum for desktops that can fit a phone screen then it makes sense that mobile doesnt need that, just Windows 10, which it should have by the release date :). 
  • Stupid microsoft, its too late in 2018 for surface phone. They need more phones and they need to build all phone line like 560 660 760 860 960 1060 then they will have apps and developers.
  • Interesting that you are happy for no innovation. And just want a smartphone.
  • Well because he is a user not a shareholder or a cheerleader for MS
  • Seemed more to me that he isn't aware tech changes. The same way people were not aware Iphone changes mobile phones. Pocket PCs are the next logical step.
  • The iPhone (pocket PC) was already invented. There isn't much room for Microsoft going forward. They really need something new and revolutionary. Programs from the 1990s isn't the answer.
  • I don't know if fanboys are aware, naïve or were not born, but Pocket PC already existed before. Just as it did last time, it will FAIL again. Its a non needed piece of technology.
  • nice windows❤
  • Without a Store of apps, no new device will be successful!!!!
    Invest in developers, not in hardware!!!
  • So, Venetasoft, would you develop for Windows if it was setup like I would do? Starting from x date - 1 year later all developer fees waived so the developer get 100% of the revenue, then stay in line with what apple takes from their developers?
  • MS should have continued improving WP8.1! They have started again a new windows mobile, 10 mobile, a slow mediocre OS! Nadella destroyed everything phone related at MS! He will be remembered in history for  bad management, layoffs, cheap working, mediocre quality and ZERO respect towards customers.
  • My HP Elite x3 begs to differ on your slow remark ;)
  • This is the same that happened to the original Windows Mobile platform.  They let it die on the vine while Blackberry and Apple took the market over. This is history repeating itself.  
  • There is no doubt that Windows Mobile usage continues to collapse. One of the less discussed contributing factors is Microsoft, HP and Alcatel choosing not to submit their new devices for CDMA certification. By doing this, the current portfolio of WM devices becomes a non-issue for customers of Verizon Wireless, Sprint, US Cellular and their respective resellers. It is generally known that Verizon Wireless is working on getting it's next generation network implemented for a targeted 2019 activation, and, capping of the existing CDMA network. Still, how does one expect to grow sales figures and usage of an OS if they produce products that are of no use to a large number of people?
  • It is not up to consumers to make MS successful. They will flock to whichever company meets their needs. I love Windows 10 still on PC. But still hear so many say they hate MS and Windows 10. They are very badly perceived by the general public.
  • If it is a full Windows 10 device, then it needs to be able to run Android apps. You can run Android apps on Windows 10 pc so can something be used here to help with the apps?
  • Why? Apps are irrelevant if it runs full Windows 10 and the billions of software it has that have way more features than Apps. Apps exist because mobile OS is limited and could not run true software. For example a full Win 10 device on a pocket Surface for example would have access to Steam. Instantly destroying any Mobile OS game. With full features, recording functions and screenshot sharing. Full photo shop, full language learning programs. Full learning to drive highway code programs. Full outlook, full everything. Why use an app that is slow and has features? Seems utterly mental.
  • There is no mainstream consumer program on Windows that has not been replaced by a mobile app on Android or iOS. Steam might be mainstream, although it is more of a niche gamer platform, but you are not going to be playing Steam games on a 5" screen. Any game that works well in that form factor is going to already be ported to mobile. Photoshop certainly isn't mainstream, it is niche professional software, and it again would really suck on a 5" screen. Mobile apps are hampered by screen size and input methods, not platform capabilities. There is no reason Adobe can't make a fully featured Photoshop app for iPhone, the issue is making a good experience within the mobile device.
  • Popular apps are being written to Andoid and iOS, not necessarily for full W10. The consumer market values having what they want (the app my fiend has). Phone with full W10  will have an audience of peopole who want W10 programs and are willing to do without android apps. A full W10 will not appeal to those who want Android apps. A full W10 phone that runs android apps wpuld have both audiences. Even if the apps ae not optimal, it will build up users, who will petition the developer to make tjeir app better on the Full W10 phones.
  • And how many of these "billions of software" are usable on a small screen?
  • The longer they leave it the more risk Samsung, google or apple will steal their thunder. 2018 is a lifetime away. Release win on arm and the phone soon or give up and forget mobile. As much as I love wp, the world has almost forgot it exists
  • Not sure I understand how people are saying that the "Surface phone" will fail or will be successful. AFAIK no one at Microsoft has acknowledge it's existence yet, right? So how can a rumor fail or succeed?? There is absolutely no official info about it. Or has there? Maybe i missed it. That takes me to the next point: the tag line of the article says that "Microsoft has asserted that the Surface phone will arrive when it's ready ". They have?? A spokesman for Microsoft has said the words Surface and phone together?? Did i miss that? And i don't mean them saying " mobile device". Not trying to troll, just trying to get my expectations in check. If anyone can post a source of MS mentioning the surface phone, that would be great.
  • Microsoft already learn with acquiring Nokia wont enough to enter market. Microsoft "really need help" Windows Existing User and Laptop Dekstop user.
  • There is a lot to read through in these comments but the thing this article doesn't even mention are the Win32 apps. If this thing can run most 32 apps decently such as Photoshop as they showed, then this Mobile Surface already has the library of apps that PCs and Tablets already have, which spans decades of apps. It will have the apps you already use on your home PC or work PC. Window's market share in PC is still dominating despite stalling on growth. That domination in PCs is because of all the programs many have been using for years. They run the things people need done that a tablet or phone can't do. One because of power and limited graphics and the other due to OS limitations and low specs. Tablets can run many Win32 apps, but still struggle with most. Trust me, I tried Photoshop on my ASUS VivoTab Smart and it did open but ran terrible. but now that the Surface line are getting powerful enough to do these things and be more mobile, and phones are quickly getting up to par in hardware, logically the two were going to meet and the plan is to make W10 much more mobile and useful than either a tablet or a phone.... This new device is the result. Microsoft already knew they lost the mobile war as well as the apps that came with that war. But if you look back and see what you already have..... Which is an even larger app library that has accumulated over many years, then bring all that to the table, then you just won over a bunch of those people who use the greatest majority OS on PCs because now they can take those Win32 apps on the road. Instead of having to take a laptop or tablet and a phone, they can just take the phone. All those other apps come later once people realise that there is interest and a growing sales on this new device. And those mobile apps? If they make this device powerful enough to run Photoshop on a big screen, then it might be able to run BlueStacks or similar Android Emulator.... It's a possibility anyways. Either way, I'm sitting this year out on getting a new phone and I'll see what happens.
  • Hi Praxious you must have missed this part of the article: "This is where the concepts of a Windows Mobile 2017 (unlikely) or 2018 full Windows on ARM Surface "phone" (even with Win32 apps) run into a problem." When I speak of full Windows on ARM I am by default acknowledging that Win32 apps which are part of full Windows are part of the discussion. Still I make a deliberate point of mentioning Win32 apps in the excerpt I pasted here from the article. That reference is actually a hyperlink to an article I wrote last month titled "Microsoft's Project Centennial app bridge makes sense of Win32 apps on phone". In that piece I delve into the benefits of and Microsoft's strategy for bringing Win32 apps to "phone" and how project Centennial is designed to make the full UWP apps. Sometimes the focus of one article can't flow to far in the direction of explaining other points, that's why hyperlinked content is important. It is my hope in many cases that where people see hyperlinks, they will follow them because thier often very important supplements to the story is reading. Thanks so much for adding to the discussion!😎
  • So many Win32 Programs are simply not useful on a small screen. So many "small screen apps" simply do not make any sense on larger screens. In that context, this sentence doesn't make much sense: "If cellular PCs of various forms and sizes become commonplace the activity that we normally reserve for our smartphones may begin being relegated to these new PCs." Why should I take a "Cellular PC" with me do do activity which can be done perfectly on a smartphone (which BTW is already a cellular PC, for many use cases)?
  • So doesn't this idea fly in the face of the Surface mission to create a high-end halo device and then let OEMs create their own versions to fill all the price points and features? This way sounds like let the others pave the way for Win10 on ARM to set up the arrival of a Surface device to then come along and create the new category. I'm not saying it won't happen but it seems like a little bit of the reverse of their current (and so far successful) strategy.
  • It's too long for 2018 that surface phone will be ready in the market...
  • I am a developer, albeit a learning one, but I DO UNDERSTAND one thing, that, there won't be any apps if there are not phones to run them. Sure they can push Surface Phone to 2018, but they should have built Lumia devices more so that developer