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Microsoft mangled the pitch for Surface Laptop and Windows 10 S, but it doesn't matter

On May 2, Microsoft unveiled Windows 10 S – its education play – and the new Surface Laptop, which is for higher education.

In talking to people on Twitter, reading comments, and following the internet zeitgeist, it's clear Microsoft muddled the delivery of the Surface Laptop. Despite that conflation, I don't think it matters, but I want to hit on a few points of confusion.

Windows 10 S is for schools (and eventually for consumers too)

Microsoft would love to ditch "classic" Win32 apps. If this is news to you, then you haven't been paying attention. The Universal Windows Platform (UWP), while still nascent, will be positioned to as a real development platform for PC, tablets, mobile, and even cross-platform in the next few years.

It's smart too. The same thing that makes Windows influential and far-reaching – installable .exe apps and games – is its Achilles Heel for consumers too. Viruses, PCs that slow down after years of usage, poor battery life, instability – all of this is often the result of consumers installing janky software off the internet. While such a system is fine for pros, it's bad for your parents (and kids).

Installable .exe apps and games are what made Windows popular — and are its Achilles Heel, too.

Things are better with Windows 10 because of Windows Defender and SmartScreen, but the long-term solution is curated and screened apps that are properly siloed by the operating system. The system for that is UWP, where apps can be uninstalled with no remnants, leave the registry unsullied, are vetted by Microsoft, and distributed via the Windows Store.

Admittedly, UWP is not there yet as a Win32 replacement. There are missing APIs, Project Centennial can't handle all requests, etc. I expect Microsoft to have some announcements around this next week at Build 2017, but UWP is a multi-year project.

Microsoft may focus on desktops with UWP — here's why you should care

While Microsoft is rightly positioning Windows 10 S for schools, the long-term goal is that it becomes just Windows for consumers. Microsoft needs more high-profile apps though, like Spotify (Project Centennial, by the way) and third-party browsers. I think over the next several months we'll see an influx of those apps in the Store.

Why Windows 10 S is not Windows RT

Another bit of confusion I saw from people was conflating Windows RT from 2012 with Windows 10 S.

This contrast could not be any more wrong. Here are a few of the advances of Windows 10 S juxtaposed with Windows RT:

  1. It runs on new x86/x64 hardware and not an old, slow ARM processor (e.g. Windows RT).
  2. It can run Win32 applications through the Store (Project Centennial).
  3. With one-click it can be upgraded to full Windows 10 Pro. (This option is always free for school licenses.)
  4. The Store in 2017 is vastly improved from the Store in 2012.
  5. Windows 10 S is not a tablet OS; it's a laptop and PC one.
  6. It can handle Windows Mixed Reality.

Folks, those are not trivial details.

The ability of Windows 10 S to run on standard PC hardware, handle third-party drivers for peripherals, run "classic" Win32 applications, or just turn into "full" Windows 10 Pro is huge.

Why Windows 10 S on the Surface Laptop?

If there is one issue I had with the May 2 event, it was the odd transition from discussion K-12 education to college kids with the Surface Laptop.

Windows 10 S was positioned as a competitor to Google's Chrome OS in schools for 90 minutes. While Chrome OS was never mentioned, that was the subtext. From improvements to manageability with InTune for Education (huge news) to the focus on quick start times and long battery life, Windows 10 S is a viable alternative to Chrome OS.

For U.S. schools with existing licenses, they get Windows 10 S for free. Any machine with Windows 10 S can be upgraded for free to the Pro version of Windows at any time.

That's all fine, but suddenly the Surface Laptop is being positioned against Apple MacBook and MacBook Air and aimed at college kids who need an excellent computer for four years.

Anyone who has been on a college campus knows Apple dominates. Macs are everywhere and for those who think they're too expensive for college kids, well, visit your local university.

Windows 10 S though is suddenly being conflated as an OS for a $1,000 laptop. Lost in the message were the eight low-cost laptops announced by HP, Dell, Acer, and more that start at $189.

Those are the Chromebook competitors, not the Surface Laptop.

HP, Dell, Acer, and others announced low-cost laptops starting at just $189. Those are the Chromebook competitors, not the Surface Laptop.

Windows 10 S does make some sense for college kids too. Heck, I'm fine with running just Windows Store apps right now. When I interact with "normies" a.k.a. people who don't read this site, their PC usage is very straightforward. It's 90 percent web browser, and the rest is a mix of a mail app, Microsoft Office, and some services e.g. Spotify, iTunes, Netflix.

While many PC users install Steam, "hack" their registry, or modify the shell with goofy Windows 7 Start Menus, those are the ten percenters.

I think Microsoft put Windows 10 S on the Surface Laptop for two main reasons:

  1. Use your product – It would be weird if Microsoft boasted all those benefits to Windows 10 S like long battery life, fast resume times, and security only to turn around and not use it themselves for its new laptop.
  2. Consumer transition to UWP - Microsoft must start somewhere with ditching Win32 for consumers. Why not release high-profile hardware that defaults to this new system? This transition away from Win32 is happening and will continue to happen. This positioning is one of those major milestones.

In the end, though, it does not matter if you're confused.

Surface Laptop is just Windows

When the Surface Laptop lands in people's laps on June 15 the experience will be familiar. It's just a fancy laptop, after all. They will turn it on, begin to use the Store and set up their accounts.

That moment when a non-PC enthusiast tries to install a Win32 app that is not from the Store they will get a simple message informing them of that limitation. They will then have the option to unlock Windows 10 Pro and continue as usual.

Total time to accomplish this feat: about 30 seconds. Full cost? $0 (through 2017; for schools it's always free).

While technically this is a barrier, the bar is so low here that I can't defend the position that it's troublesome. Compared to what Android users must agree to each time an app is installed this upgrade process is trivial.

So why even offer Windows 10 S? Simple, there will be a lot of people who don't unlock Pro. Fast forward six months or a year from now there will be even fewer upgrades. As the Windows Store populates with more Centennial Win32 apps the need to get apps outside the Store will diminish.

While technically Windows 10 S presents a barrier, the bar is so low here that I can't call it troublesome.

No doubt, this changeover is a process, but Microsoft must start somewhere. The important part is the company made it easy to escape those limitations. That was never the case with Windows RT.

If you are reading this, you are likely to unlock the Surface Laptop to Windows 10 Pro. That's fine. Some buyers won't and won't have to, and that's the main point.

For me, once Slack, Office, and Adobe Photoshop Elements came to the Store I could do my job with just Store apps. Games like Minecraft for Windows 10, Fallout Shelter and Pinball FX 2 for Windows 10 keep me entertained. Sling, Hulu, and Netflix cover my video-on-demand needs. I don't even need to install F.Lux anymore with Night Light.

Your usage might be different, but over the next few years, if Microsoft's plan goes accordingly, you too will be able to slowly give up non-Store apps. The ease of app updates, security, battery life, and preservation of your PC will be worth it.

And hey, if it's not and you want your "classic" Windows instead, well Microsoft will let you have your cake and eat it too.

Daniel Rubino is the Executive Editor of Windows Central, head reviewer, podcast co-host, and analyst. He has been covering Microsoft here since 2007, back when this site was called WMExperts (and later Windows Phone Central). His interests include Windows, Microsoft Surface, laptops, next-gen computing, and arguing with people on the internet.

  • I think Microsoft is repeating the same mistake with WP7. Wp7 was not free and not many OEMs/consumers have adopted it. The same will happen with windows 10 S.
  • Not really. W10S to W10Pro is "only" $49 for a reason (for general consumers, not schools - free for schools) !!
    On the other hand its around $149 for Home to Pro.
    Once W10S gets mass adoption, more Win32 apps via Centennial WILL come to the 'Microsoft' store. Spotify is just the beginning. This is definitely more secure than Home and Pro for the casual user. THAT is the difference.🙂
    THIS IS NOT Windows RT. It's BETTER.
  • But a lot of schools dont plan to upgrade their pcs atm. Making Windows 10 S free would encourage schools to at least upgrade their OS (vista, 7, 8). That in return will leave a footprint in the store. Then, higher downloads > devs.
  • Yes, that's correct @hacer619. They should do that for students.
  • Thank you
  • It doesn't matter that the OS is free. The reality is that there are already better options than Windows 10 S on the market--Chrome and iOS.  Perhaps, Microsoft can persuade some educators to switch because Office is installed... but that's about the only motivator to move to this OS. The reality is that the biggest draw of Windows is those Win32 apps that Microsoft despises so much. Once you remove those, there's very little reason to reach for a Windows PC.
  • iOS is #3 for schools and losing ground fast; Microsoft and Windows is #2. This is for the US. In Europe, Windows is still king.
  • Asian countries too. Windows is No. 1.Android only in mobile market. no 2 is IOs and chromebooks are nearly non existent
  • Yep, I was surprised when the article stated that universities were pretty much all Apple. That's just nothing like the case in the UK. I have a feeling it's just a regional issue, no big thing.
  • @Daniel Rubino IMHO your take on whether or not this is or is not RT lacks nuance. Obviously W8 is not W10. However, W10 is a continuation of W8. Similarly, Windows S is not Windows RT, but it is a continuation of Windows RT. W10 is designed so solve the same basic problems and serve the same basic needs as W8. That's what makes it a continuation. Windows S is also designed to solve the same basic problems and serve the same basic needs as Windows RT. Windows S is designed to popularize the Windows Store, improve security and simplify computing for the average consumer by "just working". It does so by limiting the source of software to the Windows Store. This allows MS to screen software for addware, spyware and malware and enforce a fully standardized and reliable software install, update and removal process. This prevents OS rot (registry deteriorization, etc) and many of the maintainability headaches caused by normal Win32 software which you mentioned in this article. The previous paragraph sums up the primary reason why Windows S exists! All of it applied equally to Windows RT, meaning it existed for the exact same reasons. That's why Windows S is a continuation of Windows RT! Everything else Windows S does is secondary to the above. Windows S certainly has many capabilities and features that Windows RT lacked, and as you stated many of them are very noteworthy, but the mission statements of both Windows RT and Windows S are the same. Stating that "the comparison to Windows RT could not be any more wrong" is therefore, well, wrong. Considering both OSes most fundamental goals are identical, the comparison is absolutely correct! It's understandable that MS would prefer not to have Windows S associated with the now toxic Windows RT brand. I support that since labeling it RT would instanlty doom it in the eyes of most consumers. However, here at WCentral it would be nice to get a little more depth. Windows S is not RT, true, but viewing it as a continuation of RT is helpful in the sense that this view emphasizes strategy and purpose over technical details. Portraying an issue solely through MS' marketing lens is usually the inferior approach.
  • You're welcome. :)
  • Windows 10 S isnt available for purchase, nor can you upgrade a current device to 10 S, it's a device specific OS, and the devices are dirt cheap
  • 👍 Yes, that's the idea. Dirt cheap. 🙂
  • Maybe upgrade is not the right term since I beleive it would require a clean install, but from the article. For U.S. schools with existing licenses, they get Windows 10 S for free. This ca
  • It's free upgrade for the existing W10 Pro licenses only.  (Reverse upgrade)
  • The article states schools with existing licenses can upgrade for free, which typically means there will likely be an iSO showing up on MSDN. It's not restricted to educational or any specific device, given that the Surface Laptop, a high-end device that will be in their consumer-facing stores, will be selling it. It's just another, albeit more restricted, version of Windows.
  • @hacer619 -- it is free for those schools. Daniel wrote in the article above, "For U.S. schools with existing licenses, they get Windows 10 S for free."
  • That's good, but still it is US only
  • That's good, but still it is US only
    That's because the roll-out is US focused ATM (ChromeOS is a much bigger threat there), it doesn't mean it won't apply to other countires/regions to cement their hold in those countries/regions, & increase the WW UWP user-base. 
  • "For U.S. schools with existing licenses, they get Windows 10 S for free."  From the article.
  • that refers to device licensing, schools will be able to upgrade from their current HW licenses running Win7/8/10 to 10S for free, sort of like a cell phone trade in. Schools don't do traditional OS licensing like consumers
  • Are you 100% certain?
  • If the schools have Windows for Education, then can probably upgrade to Windows 10 as part of their agreement, without additional license costs. I know they said if you they have Windows 10 already, then can convert machines to Windows 10 S.
  • Undoubtedly those OS versions are no longer supported (I'd I remember the dates correctly), so even getting free updates is out of the question from a business perspective. The licenses do not transfer to a supported OS.
  • Like most enterprise.  Education usually have licensing agreements in place and based on agreements they would be able to access most software and recieve updates as long as their agreements in place with SA.   So really making it free wouldnt matter much.  If they can get the hard ware out and in place before schools do hardware refresh would be the smartest play.  
  • Yea, and a normal consumer is really mixed saying "another" surface? Doesn't we already have books, pros and studios, then thinking unnessassary, education? And how the heck can a student afford such a expensive device..dont need! While those fanboys who understand says "wow what a great device" but they are only couple of thousands👍😂another confusing move by MS
  • That's the reason HP, DELL, ACER, ASUS, etc have released those $189-$300 laptops/tablets/2-in-1's.
  • Not really. A student can buy any laptop and use it. Let it be windows, mac or Chromebook. But the Surface laptop is actually targeting students owing a macbook or planning to buy one.
  • Those who can afford it, will buy it! 🙂
  • It aint a big market though, but this is thank god only for the States. Students aren't rich, they live on loans, but maybe students in US are spoiled👍😂
  • That's the bottom line.
  • dude, cheap laptops from HP or Acer are reality since 201x.. and the starting price of those cheap laptops is around 250 with FULL Windows 8.1/7 not to mention the Chinese market with even lower prices with FULL Windows experience    
  • What's your problem @pappale... No one is FORCING consumers to buy W10S devices right !!! If they want it and are fine with it, they'll BUY it. If they want W10Pro, they will buy devices that run Pro.
    If no one is interested in 10S, MSFT will definitely notice that, probably take a market survey and then decide what to do (whether to kill 10S or make it free).
    In my opinion, they should make it FREE for OEM's.
  • I know you're just a troll and don't deserving feeding, but just in case new folks think your comments might have some merit... Your biggest flaw is always that you don't understand context. Windows 10 S is not for you. It's not even for me personally. But it is for me when I decide to upgrade my children's PCs (I have 2. 6 & 10). With 10 S and a curated experience I can control the content on their devices better through MS Family Safety & not have to worry about cleaning up after my son decides to install a dodgy Minecraft mod, and when they outgrow the limitations I can upgrade the OS without the need to buy new computers. Same goes for my mom. Everything she needs on a PC is in the Store and I won't need to tech her PC at all. It's a win for me, and a win for the users I support.
  • Which were not well marketed.
  • Actually the surface laptop is a great move from Microsoft. A lot of students own expensive MacBooks these days. So i think buying expensive surface products won't be an issue for them. But my thought is that Microsoft should offer this OS free for schools were it will be deployed on a large scale. Thus giving it a good start.
  • "But my thought is that Microsoft should offer this OS free for schools were it will be deployed on a large scale." Those schools will already have Windows licenses and, as the article says: "For U.S. schools with existing licenses, they get Windows 10 S for free."
  • LOL "only" 49... are you kidding me? The PRO version should be FREE for schools. Nothing to discuss here. Again.. its a fail from Microsoft. They can lie to us but the NUMBERS wont lie to them. And this article too... OMG... S is not RT because it can run x32 app through store (LOL), the store is better than back in 2012 (LOL) etc etc etc. And for consumers... the starting price of W10S HW is around 299!!!!!! 299 + 49 for W10 PRO if you want to upgrade another big LOL. Back in 2012 you could buy an ACER laptop with FULL W8.1 for less then 250... again FAIL
  • So how well did that ACER from back in 2012 run may I ask you?!! What was the battery life like? What about security for those who aren't tech savvy?
    And the only reason they will ask the $49 is to keep a few consumers running W10S itself.
    In a few years, this will increase adoption for 10S.
  • LOL Windows experience was GOOD or if you want USABLE. Of course it wasnt a FLAGSHIP but the price of it was LOW and it had FULL WINDOWS 8.1 / 7. The battery life doesnt matter because the technology (since then) advanced. Back in 2010 - 12 we had laptops with max. 4 - 6h. of real time use They can ask 49USD for sure... but as a consumer I wont buy such product :-)) and the PR comments about "More developers will jump on board" is just a WISH! The situation is even worse then 2y. back so...  
  • Please don;t buy Windows. Buy something else and go an pollute forums about it. You won't be missed. LOOOOOOOLLLLLLL!!!!!!!
  • @Pappale, I don't know what MS is charging OEM's to install Windows 10S, if anything, but we know it's less than what they charge for Windows 10 Home. That means that the same devices you're describing that are already on the market will now become less expensive to customers with Windows 10 S versus their previous price with Windows 10 Home. Simple math.
  • @Pappale
    "only" 49... are you kidding me? The PRO version should be FREE for schools. "
    Windows 10 PRO version is free for schools as an upgrade from S; it's only consumers have to pay the $49. Read the fine print before commenting. You're one of the most committed ignorant commenters we have around here posting things that are just not true. Please learn about those topics before commenting so belligerently, thank you.
  • This is very true. But he is a good representation of the vast majority of the interwebz. Selective ignorance should be considered a disease. 
  • " Once W10S gets mass adoption, more Win32 apps via Centennial WILL come to the 'Microsoft' store." Unfortunately Microsoft hasn't exactly had a winning track record for "build it and they will come".
  • Well yeah. Hopefully this will change that. 😄
  • Why downvote here? I'm making the right point. This is better than RT because it supports more hardware configs and also W10 has improved a lot - better battery life, security, app selection too.
  • $149 for Home. Pro costs $199
  • linux has more games and is free so why would I go for windows S ??
  • Today's a question only you can answer.
  • Question: Does W10S allow the same registry tweaking and stuff like Home/Pro? It's only the app installation that's locked down, correct?
  • You can't use Powershell/Command Prompt with W10S, I doubt you'll be able to use Registry Editor either.
  • Hmm. That's okay. Just had a doubt. 🙂
  • You can't? I haven't seen that mentioned before. Where did you find that Powershell or CMD is unavailable?
  • Same question here
  • So if is it so 'school oriented' than it won't bring more users who will use more and more UWP apps and will pay for them. Obviously some companies will make apps for school programs etc. but it gives nothing to UWP platform/idea as whole. Only mobile is a solution here but they are trying to switch the attitude from UWP mobile first to UWP for laptops/desktops. It's a nightmare and it's hard to watch as somebody so involved and focused on app development for WP7.x, WP8, W8 and now UWP :/ FYI: Yes, it is possible that people who manage such big company as Microsoft might make mistakes. So far mostly because their corporate thinking and detachment from market reality :/
  • Microsoft is making BAD decisions since Bill left the office
  • This dude Pappale sounds like an iSheep Simpleton to me... How about the rest of you?
  • Same!!
  • Yes, it will bring benefits to UWP as a whole in the long run.  Microsoft's strategy to UWP is currently focused on desktop apps.  When users get used to downloading apps from Windows Store, they will also explore more casual, mobile apps from the Store. So the main point lies on whether Microsoft would do a good job in pushing popular desktop apps to the store in the coming months.  This is very critical. It is a matter of habit of Windows users - yes, users have the need to download apps - currently they download from the internet.  Once the culture of "get your apps from the store" is established, it won't be difficult to get more developers to the platform. I am not sure how effective this "desktop apps first" strategy will be.  But I can't think of any better strategy that this.
  • @Saeglopur89, I thought Daniel did a great job explaining this in the article. There are multiple separate tactics at work here that feed into a common larger strategy: 1. Fight Chromebooks in schools and in low-priced consumer sales channels like Staples, Walmart, and Amazon. By offering Windows 10 S at a lower price (maybe even free, not clear to me) than Windows 10 Home, existing manufacturers can offer lower-priced systems. Combined with simpler management and reduced security risks, this is also a very attractive version of the OS for school IT departments. Both of these fight Chrome OS with sub $200 systems. Almost certainly, there will even be some sub-$100 systems with Windows 10 S. 2. Increase use of the Store by consumers so that developers will want to release Store versions of their applications. By flooding the low-end of the marketing with cheap Windows 10 S systems and at the same time offering an aspirational laptop with Windows 10 S, they are ensuring a good cross section of customers with diverse app tastes will have a powerful incentive to use the Store. Developers don't need much of a push to go through the Store, so this should have a profound effect on thte number of titles. While not all of these will be mobile friendly, some will. I suspect MS' plan here is: first get users to the Store to attract developers, then shift the push to build native touch-friendly UWP apps that will run on smaller tablets and mobile devices. In other words, this is not just about schools, although doing well in education markets is component of the plan to specifically fight Chromebooks. As is providing a low-cost mass market system for consumers. The main goal of Windows 10 S and including it on the new high-end Surface Laptop is to drive customer traffic to the Store across diverse market segments (there's some overlap -- lots of people use Facebook -- but there are also differences in app preferences among different customer segments). Similar to how Apple generates the majority of app revenue even though there are many more Android users, the Surface Laptop is like the iPhone where the $200 Windows 10 S systems functions like the cheap Android mass market. Microsoft is capturing both segments.
  • I agree that they are trying to target multiple segments, but i also agree with Daniel that the launch was a little messy. First, I firmly believe that a $999 laptop should not come with S, even if it's a free upgrade. I also think that Myerson looked really shaky at times and the whole message of the event became muddy. Essentially, i feel they didn't provide any compelling argument for S at all and it frankly felt like a last ditch effort for UWP. Finally, i feel that to better target the k-12 education market, they should have released a $300-$500 version of the surface laptop as well. This version could have been the version with S installed by default and come with "premium low cost innards" such as a 1080p touch screen, 4GB RAM, Atom/Bay Trail chip. this would ten be the "aspirational" k-12 educational laptop while leaving plenty of room for OEMs to create similar hardware in the sub $300 range.
  • @RHoudek2, I agree with most of that and think you make good points. The one point on which I would differ is where you said that they should not have included Windows 10 S on the Surface Laptop. I think that's smart to demonstrate a commitment to the Store (exactly what MS failed to do with Windows Phone -- demonstrate a commitement to it), and maybe they should even set that as the default OS an ALL of the systems they sell.  But I agree that they could have also offered a premium, but still lower-level system while still leaving room for OEMs. I like your suggested specs for a $300-$500 system. I don't know that they needed to do that, but I think it would have been OK. It does appear that Dell, HP, and others seem to be doing a really good job delivering that middle space between premium and cheap. It appears that MS is trying to show that they won't compete with OEMs as long as the OEMs are getting the job done. Note that they can't actually have that discussion with HP, Dell, or others, because it's illegal (businesses can't collude to not compete in the US). They can only communicate it subtly by actions like this and hope the other companies get the message.
  • My only concern with the upgrade from 10S to 10Pro is that I don't trust the Windows Store to substantially grow from now until the end of the year with project centennial apps. If that's the case MS will be dealing with a lot of angry people come 2018 when they want to install an .exe and they get the pop-up that they have to pay $50 to do that. Unless MS knows something we don't know about what's coming down the road, guess we'll see if they announce anything at Build.
  • @Townsend054, these go hand in hand -- existing Win32 developers will put their apps on the Store if they believe that's a good way to reach customers and users. By enabling the existence of lower-priced mass market Windows computers than ever before and offering an aspirational laptop, all of which will be sporting Windows 10 S, there will be more demand and traffic at the Store than ever before. Will this suddenly change everything by the end of the year? Probably not, but it doesn't have to happen all at once. This is the perfect way to bridge from the development and delivery paradigm of today to a Store-based delivery system for most mainstream apps.
  • $49 isn't much money...
  • $49 isn't much money...
    Not for a $1000+ higher end laptop, but it is for someone who buys a $300 laptop in 2018 and then discovers Windows 10S won't work for them.
  • Noo... It will promote developers to bring their apps to store and if windows 10S successes then soon Win32 apps disappear from market .only disappoints me is the price 999??? WTF?
  • You seem to have missed the part where Windows 10 S and the Surface Laptop are two different things.
  • @Tarun1997, you are conflating the Surface Laptop with the sub-$200 computers. That's exactly what Daniel was trying to separate in the article. Windows 10 S is being offerd to OEM system makers (Dell, HP, Acer, etc.) for LESS than what they currently pay for Windows 10 Home. This means that they can bring cheaper Windows 10 systems to market than they ever could before. At the same time, Microsoft is showing their commitment to Windows 10 S and the Store by offering a high-end laptop system with the same Windows 10 S. While the OS version is the same, these are not likely to appeal to the same markets of users. The person, school, business, or family who is in the market for a $150 PC is probably not also in the market for a $1,300 Surface Laptop.
  • Panos's presentation was just great! But they should have had more clarity regarding things. The live stream didn't mention the $189 W10S laptops.
    Also, they mentioned Windows Inking capabilities but on a clamshell device like the Surface Laptop, it's difficult. It could have had a 360° hinge. OR, they could have launched TWO variants. One with 360° hinge and the second, clamshell.
  • They mentioned the $189 on the stream, there was even a huge backdrop.
    But it was before the Laptop announcement. He didn't look 'comfortable' trying to ink on the wobbly screen ;-)
  • Ohh. Must have missed it then! Thanks!!
  • Hey Daniel, you mentioned drivers. What happens if you buy a usb peripheral and it comes with a cdrom or asks you to download a driver from a website?  Will that work on Windows 10 S?
  • I honestly can't remember the last time I bought a peripheral that required either of those things. Many laptops these days don't even HAVE a CD/DVD-ROM drive.
  • I imagine you'll have to check if the device is compatible with Windows 10 S before buying it.
  • Driver updates will work the way it always does. How am I so sure of this? There's an option in the Settings app that does this. So basically SIGNED drivers will be delivered. The user need not worry. :)
  • Not likely if it's an .exe file which most driver installers are
  • @Brian2014, as AbhiWindows10 said, signed drivers will install fine. The only reason most legacy drivers are handled via .exe, is because that's been an easy way to automate the driver install process. The actual drivers have never required an .exe. In fact, for most drivers, even today (or any time since the modern version of Windows started with NT 4), you could either dowload an EXE installer or just the driver files (SYS and INI). To install drivers directly, you go through the Settings or Device Manager. This should not be an issue.
  • SYS, INF, and for signed drivers CAT
  • @rbgaynor, oops, yes, you're right! :-)
  • Nice piece Daniel! Good to point out the oddities and possible misunderstandings.
  • Yup!! Poor guy was really troubled on twitter. This will clear things up.
  • "While Microsoft is rightly positioning Windows 10 S for schools, the long-term goal is that it becomes just Windows for consumers." I take it you mean Windows for those that have simpler needs and want the least headaches as possible, because this message won't go well for those that swear by Steam, GOG, Origin, etc, as their store of choice for games.
  • YUP. It's for that kind of a market. The kind that just wants to spend a max of $300 and get a GOOD experience (battery life, virus free, malware free, fast devices).
  • Right, that's the 10% he refers to who need the Windows 10 Pro version (also currently Home, it will be interesting to see if they retire Home over time in favor of S). That said, I hope that MS improves the Store for AAA gaming titles. Definitely currently a weak spot compared with the others you mention, but I've never liked Steam, so I'm rooting for MS to learn from the Xbox side of their business and make it just as easy to buy AAA games digitally on Windows.
  • The fabric keyboard bezel looks the same as on the Surface Pro and those rip and tear easily and cannot be cleaned when they get dirty.  Would prefer a metal bezel.
  • Gabe Aul tweeted with a photo that he's been using this for 6 months now and there's no stains, tears, etc. It's a pretty durable fabric and the reviews on Amazon from ppl who got the Alcantra keyboard for Surface Pro 3 and 4 is very positive. 🙂
  • Lol, why would he say otherwise. I use alcantara daily and knows it will get messy by time👍
  • You're thinking of the regular type covers, the material used here is the same as the Signature Edition covers, they're incredibly easy to clean and extremely durable.
  • Anyone know what happen to classic program already installed in my PC if I enable "allow apps from the store only"??
  • It's just for installation. Allready installed apps won't be affected.
  • What about self-updating apps like Steam, AV software etc?
  • @Daniel, What i meant with my Tweet yesterday is, that Microsoft shouldn't advertise Windows 10 S as a crippled Version of Windows 10. Clearly the Upgrade Option for Windows 10 Pro is just a safety net to avoid problems about missing apps in the store. As i agree with you that Windows 10 S will de facto become the Windows for consumers eventually, Microsoft should concentrate on the merits of Windows 10 S (swift, secure, etc.) instead of touting the "yeah, you can Upgrade to Windows 10 Pro". The goal should be that people see Windows 10 S as superior to Windows 10.
  • hmm, 'Windows 10 Superior'
  • I like your 'S' words. :-) I also think it's clever that MS showed it for Schools. In my mind, it clearly means Store, but I'm sure others will see it meaning different things. I think it's also Windows 10 Simplified. I'd like to see some ads run emphasizing these S words. No more than one S word per ad.
  • Honestly, they picked S only because it is used in many other successful products like the Galaxy S series. I'm 100% sure about this.
  • @crise, really? Do you have a source in Microsoft product marketing for that? I think that's extremely unlikely. It's generally only bottom feeder brands who seek to just copy branding moves by others. And Microsoft, for good or bad, doesn't seem to copy anyone else with anything brand-related, even when it arguably might be in their best interest to do so.
  • What I will be interested in seeing is what version of Windows becomes the "go-to" OS for your typical Best Buy purchase. If it becomes more than just something you see on budget PCs - this could become just another way for Microsoft to get you to pay for Windows 10. Now I know Surface Laptop contains a free upgrade - and maybe that is something OEMs will offer on higher end PCs as well, but this just seems like another way to get money out of a consumer. Want full Windows? That'll be $50. Want full Office? Thanks, $100. Want your legacy ports, Thanks, $50 worth of dongles.
  • Honestly I'm hoping that Windows 10 S replaces Home. It is more capable than home on a lot of things, and people that buy home devices aren't exactly power users so they could benefit from the increased performance and security
  • @Mike Makeski, keep in mind that Microsoft is offering Windows 10 S cheaper to OEMs than Windows 10 Home, while at the same time charging customers LESS to upgrade all the way to Windows 10 Pro than from Windows 10 Home. Of course, if Home is all you need, then parts of that may not matter, but this should result in less expensive Windows computers.
  • They go out of their way to over complicate things.
  • Seems simple to me: buy a Windows computer cheaper than ever before, in exchange for agreeing to get your apps from the Store. If you ever change your mind, you can pay $50 and get apps however you want.
  • Sounds more complicated than buying a computer and it just working.
  • It's one of those things that of you are some non tech jo schmoe l, you have to read the description a few times to figure out what the hell is going on. And most people think Windows is Windows...not the case anymore though it sounds like you can turn it to pro real easy, but again, not everyone realizes that and may walk away thinking that's not the casem
  • Point 3 doesn't make any sence. When you upgrade to Windows 10 Pro it isn't Windows S anymore.
  • It does make sense because, while you're correct that it is no longer Windows 10 S after the upgrade, it is still Windows 10 S that is offering the upgrade path on the same hardware, which Windows RT did not. If you weren't satisfied with RT then you had to buy new hardware whereas S can do an in-place upgrade.
  • But then it makes the whole Windows 10 S offering moot.  So they're basically offering it to meet an artificial price point at retail.
  • Hahaha....those people are ******* it up again....typical Microsoft. They are late to everything. Go on the web, you won't like what is being written about Windows 10S......haha people are not liking it and that'll apply to students too. Microsoft doesn't listen, Windows RT all over again and I bet you this 10S thing will die in a couple of years.
  • @kenzibit, I think Daniel did a pretty solid job enumerating the material differences between Windows 10 S and Windows RT. Also, consider why RT failed -- primarily because even customers who liked the concept didn't want to risk being stuck with it and not being able to use the apps they wanted. That objection to the sale does not exist with Windows 10 S. At the mass market end (the low-end in pricing), new systems will be cheaper than ever before (because MS is charging less to OEMs to using Windows 10 S than they did for Windows 10 Home) in exchange for users buying apps from the Store, with an easy $50 out if you find you need an app that's not on the Store, or about the amount you saved when you bought the cheaper system in the first place. There's really no downside. There were huge downsides with RT.
  • That being the case, why wouldn't a 10 S buyer this year not immediately exercise the free upgrade? You're protected from the possibility that the store still doesn't take off and the administrator of the machine has the option in 10 Pro to limit apps to the store only. Not immediately upgrading seems like a lost opportunity for the best of both worlds.
  • @rbaynor, if I bought one, I would immediately upgrade to Windows 10 Pro, just to be safe I don't miss the deadline later. The fact that I can do that makes it easier for people like me (and most tech writers) to recommend the system -- that's why MS has the policy. But many users won't bother. And even for people like you and me, we'd probably still at least visit the store to try it out if we weren't already familiar. If nothing else, this greatly raise visibility and awareness of the Store, and that will increase traffic.
  • You're just weird... 
  • Agree completely. This being part of the education event, they also focused entirely too much on this being a laptop for college kids. Why pigeonhole a product whose appeal goes well beyond education. This also happens to be great option for those who love the Surface build quality, but don't require the features of Surface Book. I count myself in this group. Despite the free upgrade, the storyline among many is the system lock down and the lack of USB-C - but these won't be concerns among mainstream PC buyers who are shopping at Best Buy or who see a TV ad in primetime. They'll see a product that showcases beauty and offers a very real option to Apple's MacBook Air/Pro line.
  • well said Daniel!!!!
  • Thought it was fairly obvious myself, half the time I think people just hear something they don't like and instead of thinking about it they just start ranting.
    Still don't forgive all the moaners that got the initial vision of the xbox one changed, if they took the time to understand the benefits they would have loved the idea..
  • I agree Microsoft marketed this poorly, but I think you pretty much did the same thing here.Saying Apple dominates college campuses is quite a stretch. Macs are definitely more common, but far from dominating, in my experiences. In Computer Science, that is also far from the truth. There was actually an informal poll in one of my classes this semester, and 1 of about 50 students had a Mac. That, and calling the Pro upgrade a one-click affair is patently untrue, especially after 2017. It's one click afte you get to the point of confirmation, but it's not like there is forever a magic switch on W10S that lets you make that jump. Long-term, it's getting to the menu, putting in the user info needed to pay for the upgrade, and then a $50 charge. When you oversell the simplicity like that, you're going to infuriate any user who experiences the slightest need for effort. There are a lot of liberal arts-type degrees that might make sense for W10S, but the Windows Store is still in such a sorry state that STEM fields would be impossiblt to effectively engage in with W10S. The software gaps are just too massive. I couldn't have done much of my coursework with W10S. The tools you need to do software design just aren't available in the Store. The same likely goes for engineering programs, math software as well. There are MASSIVE gaps in the Windows Store that aren't even close to being addressed, let alone resolved. The idea that MS, in the next few years, would abandon Win32 is almost laughable. Given the abysmal growth of software availabilty in the store thus far, 10 years would be an optimistic look. Throw in the inevitably stubborn legacy developers, and Microsoft would have to branch W10 heavily to make any hope of Win32 abandonment even a little bit of a reality. Lastly, the main problem isn't W10S, which I think has its merits in lower wrungs of education (where you don't need much specialized software, if any). The problem is that Surface Laptop. It's an embarrassment at $1,000. The hardware you get is just unacceptable. If they went with 8 GB of RAM and a 256 GB SSD, I would understand the price (even if it would still be a bit inflated). At 4 GB of RAM and as 128 GB SSD, they should have been a couple hundred dollars lower--given the competition is more than $300 south at times. Microsoft hasn't got the longevity in good hardware design or the brand cache to get away with such pricing. You're only appealing to the most obsessively delusional MS fans with the Surface Laptop, and that's not what you will find for the education market, especially if you believe Apple is all the rage. If they would have at least leveraged the growind 2-in-1 designs, there would have been SOMETHING to grab onto, but a rigid laptop with those specs at $1,000 is rarely goingto get more than a confused look from afar as the student is picking out a Mac.
  • @Keith Wallace, I think you're right on your factual points about adoption, but missing the marketing strategy aspects of this, including the inflated pricing on the Surface Laptop. The main markets for this are low-priced laptops for mass-market consumers (those sub $100-$300 systems from the OEMs). At those price points, knocking an additional $70 out of the cost for the OS is a significant % savings and allows them to compete favorably with Chromebooks, especially with the knowledge that for an added $50, it becomes a full Windows system. Microsoft is effectively giving away $50 - $70 per system sold as an investment to help get more people using the Store in order to make it more attractive to developers. The Surface Laptop including Windows 10 S is just to show that MS is committed to the system. The price (which I agree is very high for the specs) is intended to do 2 things: 1) communicate that MS views it as a quality device to compete with Apples laptops (which are also underspec'd for the price and lack a touchscreen), and 2) to define a good laptop experience with a price point that OEMs can easily undercut and still make a profit.  Yes, I think the majority of techies and enthusiasts who buy a Surface Laptop will upgrade it to Windows 10 Pro. That's not the point. The fact that many engineering students would need access to apps beyond the Store is immaterial -- that's a near insignificant portion of the total market. Your typical mass-market consumer is much less likely to do that. The purpose of including Windows 10 S on the Surface Laptop is to help establish Windows 10 S as a mainstream consumer OS without the stigma of it being just on dirt cheap hardware or for the toy computers used in primary education.
  • "The Surface Laptop including Windows 10 S is just to show that MS is committed to the system." I don't see how the Surface Laptop shows that at all. It shows they're willing to sell a product at insane margins, but that's about it. This is a $1,000 laptop with components I can find in a Best Buy laptop for $300 less. I can get a more capable laptop for $200 less, in some cases (i5, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD). A limited availability product at a sky-high price shows me nothing resembling faith in the platform. It just shows me MS will be happy to take your ill-spent money. I recommended the SP3 to my sister, which she got and likes. I recommended the Surface Book for a coworker (who I never see, but have heard no complaints about). However, there is not a single instance in life where I would recommend the Surface Laptop--not even for a billionaire who wants a nice-looking Windows laptop. It offers nothing over the competition, be it functionality, power, or price. It's the worst of all worlds. The insignificant part of the market is the people interseted in this thing. Honestly, who would want this? You would have to be dying to spend $1,000 and hate the idea of getting access to a full software suite. It's a fashion statement from a brand with no cache as a fashion brand.
  • @Keith Wallace, I largely agree with that -- I would never buy the Surface Laptop either, where the Surface Pro and Surface Book and even Surface 3 all appeal to me for their respective niches. However, the Surface Laptop should be very appealing for people who want a beautiful, well built system. Fit and finish and design are often more expensive than the components. This will be Microsoft's main ~$1,000 laptop system. If you want a straight touch-laptop (also supports pen, but a pen on a laptop seems silly to me), don't like aesthetics of the odd hinge in the Surface Book, and you're not a spec freak (like you and I probably both are), then for many, this is a gorgeos system. And, it doesn't cost $2,000+, like the Porsche laptop. I care more about specs and function than aesthetics (sounds like you do too), but there a lot of people with different preferences. As the company that makes the OS used by all the Windows OEMs, I think we want MS to make the gorgeous systems that not just users aspire to own, but OEMs aspire to emulate (and then pack in better spec'd components at a lower price). :-)
  • If you've ever used a pen to mask right over an image in Photoshop, you may understand it's allure. It's a wonderful way to speed up a tedious operation. I have the surface book, but Photoshop keyboard shortcuts are so integral to the workflow that I would never consider popping off the screen while I am masking.
  • MS may bring some apps to the store, but what about other developers? The chances of seeing a UWP Steam app, or say a full featured PowerDVD are slim at best, at least for the foreseeable future.
  • I definitely think the delivery was confusing. Windows 10 S is great for schools with high priority on security! Also here's a $1000+ laptop that those schools would never pay for! Another minor point of confusion for me: it's only $49 to upgrade from S to Pro? Isn't it usually more than that to upgrade from Home to Pro?
  • if you look at the comparison between 10S, Home, and Pro you'll see that 10S is literally just Pro with some very minor adjustments, and one major (Store only) while Home is much less feature rich than the others, so the jump from Home to Pro is much larger than 10S to Pro
  • @five-one-three, do you know -- does Windows 10 S support being a Remote Desktop host like Pro, or does it have that limitation like Home? And can it join a domain? I guess there's Bitlocker and some other differences, but the Domain and Remote Desktop Support are the main factors that always drive me to only go with Windows Pro. I've not seen a good feature comparison with 10S yet, other than the obivous -- only installs apps from the Store.
  • In order to be able to join a domain like school networks
    if would have to have networking features like Remote Desktop.
  • I'm wondering, does that mean normal win32 apps can't be run on it.  Like Sony Vegas?  Cubase?  Sonar?  
  • They won't, because they're not in the Store.   And the APIs to turn something like Sony Vegas into a UWP are just not there; Vegas is too complex for that.
  • I think 99.9% of audience here are more advanced Windows users who do not want Windows 10S at the moment, which is understandable. But the fact is that the majority of users just need a capable OS + browser + office apps.  Some of them might need one/two more apps for photo editing.  That's it. Well, the absence of Chrome may be a major disappointment to users.  Will they upgrade to Win 10 Pro just for the sake of running Chrome?  I don't know.  If I were that kind of users, I may simply give myself a chance to use Edge - and to my surprise Edge is quite nice indeed. Or maybe there will be Firefox/Opera available in the store soon?  Who knows... We really should not assume the majority of users want to install tons of win32 apps.  The truth is indeed the opposite.
  • You basically just described a Chromebook.
  • I don't buy the assumption that the Windows Store will populate with iTunes and Google applications like Chrome (the world's most used browser). Yeah, visitors to this site don't like iTunes, but it's needed to sync iPhones, iPods and iPads which are hugely popular. And Apple has little incentive to totally re-write iTunes (a big job!) as a UWP; I'm not sure it's possible due to the applications complexity.  Or even submit it to the Windows store.  If there's no iTunes, Windows 10S will fail as a less expensive SKU offered at big box retail, and you'll have a lot of frustrated customers who won't be able to sync their iPads and iPhones. I don't think they've thought this through, and Microsoft is likely to get a lot of negative feedback from retailers selling Windows 10S products, due to confusion and returns.
  • Agreed. After Microsoft's continued flailing with the Mobile app store, I think the idea of building a whole OS around the hope that the Win 10 app store will magically get more comprehensive is absurd and wildly optimistic..
  • ITunes on the store would be one of the best examples why the store is better in some cases. No more deep registry imbedding and slow startup tasks.
  • Like I said, many, like yourself, may not like it, but iTunes is needed in order to properly manage one's iOS devices. Not having it in the store, for W10 S , is a big hole. You basically can't offer that at retail, to iPhone users, or retailers will be facing confused customers and returns.
  • "I don't buy the assumption that the Windows Store will populate with iTunes and Google applications like Chrome (the world's most used browser)."
    Why not? Correct me if I'm wrong: Google and Apple both make apps for Windows PCs, no? Those are Win32 apps and only run on Microsoft Windows computers. Doing a Centennial UWP is just the same thing. Google and Apple making Windows apps for their customers. There's no ideological difference there, it's just about mass adoption.
  • Chrome and iTunes coming as Centennial apps would be huge "gets" for Microsoft, much bigger than Spotify. If those were anywhere close to being in the pipeline, the Microsoft folks would have led with that.  
  • When you consider the users (both actual, and possible) then who really loses? 
  • @Johnny Tremaine, Google has Chrome in Apple's App Store, so it doesn't seem that unlikely to me that they will put it in the Store too. But as has always been the challenge for MS, there's a chicken and egg problem here -- developers will wait to see that customers are using the Store and customers aren't interested until there are many apps. Windows 10 S seems like a smart way to bridge that divide -- provide super cheap and aspirational devices with the OS, but give users an easy $50 path out, so little to fear. By normal consumer behavior, people will buy the devices (because of low prices or desire for Surface-grade hardware), some will upgrade to Pro right away, some never, and some only when they run into a key missing app. For those second two groups, that means there will be much added traffic to the Store. And it doesn't take much to make it worthwhile for developers to move their apps there, considering how easy MS has made it with the bridges and Xamarin.
  • It isn't a "chicken or egg" problem. For what platform have apps ever come before users? Microsoft needs to find some way to convince users to adopt UWP, then developers will be happy to support it. Microsoft is not entitled to apps. They have to prove themselves just like anyone else. I am sure you weren't arguing that Android had a "chicken or egg" problem back in 2008. Google built a compelling platform so people adopted it. Why can't Microsoft do the same?
  • @bleached, I agree with what you wrote there. I don't think I was saying anything different from that. By "chicken and egg problem," I simply mean that app developers want users before providing apps for a platform and users want apps before adopting the platform. As a group, neither wants to move without the other already being there. Fortunately, neither group is monolithic, and some can be peeled off to join the platform, which then helps attract more of the other. etc. Back when Android started (and even Windows Phone 7) the app landscape was much less mature. It's tougher to break in now than it was then. But I completely agree -- while MS can provide its own first party apps (which it does well), it then needs to get users there to start some more apps appearing, which will then attract more users, then more apps, etc. That stair stepping approach is their best bet. And by making Windows 10 S cheaper to OEMs, the resulting lower-priced systems seems like the best way to get users onto the Store to attract the apps, because those systems can only add apps through the Store. Low-priced hardware tends to move large volumes (see Android market share as one example among many, many similar cases). And unlike low-end smartphones, where many people never install any apps, very few people buy even a low-end computer and then do not install anything on it.
  • The strength of Windows is in the depth of software available for it and the freedom to use it as you want. A store based Windows will never match such versatility and when you add on the lack of modern software people expect today this doesn't have any appeal I can see. If people want a closed system they already have two mature platforms to choose from for that.
  • Yeah, I don't see the appeal for this either.   I think it'll fall so flat on its face, that in a year Microsoft will be reversing everything they just rolled out about Windows 10 S.  
  • If all the Win32 applications were in the store, then you wouldn't need to install anything from outside the store. It will take a long time to get to that point, if ever, but Daniel's point is for the majority of users, eventually the Store will be the only place they will need to go to find and install an app.
  • Daniel's point is invalid for the very reason I state, the store can't match the breath of traditional Windows programs now and won't anytime soon negating that whole argument. Consider that Microsoft themselves still don't have office ready and you realize the task the store has to overcome. Then you have to ask the question, why would anyone want to concede control over their PC to what Microsoft deems worthy of being in the store? That's an even harder obstacle to overcome.
  • Agreed, the fact that they couldn't even have their own prized jewel, Office, ready for the Windows Store at the time of this presentation, says a lot.   All they offered was, it'll be there at some point. Soon. I think the whole roll out fell flat on its face, because the whole idea behind it is flawed.  
  • They stated that Office 365 apps will be available in the Store by the release date of Surface Laptop. I agree, if you need the flexibility of installing any and all Win32 programs, you will not be using Windows 10 S. This will be a long transition (many, many years for sure) and Pro may never go away, but again, the majority of users will eventually not need any applications from outside the Store. If I were to buy a Windows 10 S machine, I would definitely upgrade to Pro. I think if you want the security that 10 S will provide, you might be best to get a Home or Pro machine, install all the applications from outside the Store that you need, then locking down the machine to the Store. Outside of the deployment and maintenance benefits geared towards the education market, I do not see much of a difference from what 10 S would provide.
  • Do you really think Microsoft will have the patience, a years long process as you point out, to see all this through? Looking at the rate at which they roll out, then turn around and abandon things, I'm highly dubious.   In fact, the rate at which things are abandoned, have *increased* under Nadella. Why would someobody buy a high end Surface, with Windows 10S today, when in two years, Microsoft's position will be 'Oh, nevermind about that...'
  • Isn't the whole point that the people who are going to need the Win32 apps or install other third party programs from the internet are going to upgrade to Windows 10 Pro for $49 (or build their own PC with Home or Pro)? Daniel's point was that Windows 10 S is not for those people. People like us who are reading this article now are not the majority of users, whom Microsoft is actually targetting with this strategy. This type of thing would be great for my step-dad's mother who often downloads malicious software through a fake news links on Facebook.
  • The Windows store doesnt have the kind of apps the majority of users would expect, that is the problem. No point having a locked down system when the apps people expect arent there when you remove the ability to run traditional programs. And if you need Win32, why on earth would you buy a locked down version in the first place only to then have to spend more money to upgrade to Pro?
  • @thefman, this is simple: if you're thinking about buying a Windows Computer, and you're on a budget (which applies to much of the mass market), you will now find Windows Computers about $50-$70 less with the only limit that you can only get apps from the Store. For many, that limitation won't matter and the low price is all it will take to convince them to buy it. For others, they will care about the Store limitation, but many of those will understand that for about the same amount as the discount on the system ($50), they can upgrade to a higher end version of Windows (Pro vs. Home). So there's really no downside beyond the minor hassle to perform the upgrade from S to Pro. This is not like Windows RT, where buying the system would guarantee you can't access any of those Win32 apps.   With that added traffic in the Store from those customers (even if some or many of them ultimately go on to upgrade to Windows 10 Pro, they'll at least try to the Store first to see if they can save the $50 fee), that makes the Store attractive to developers, eliminating the probelm you see with the Store (lack of apps).  We can't know at this point if this will ultimately be successful, but if you're MS, this is pretty much the best way to leverage its Windows brand to get developers to migrate apps to the Store where the customers will be. It's a sound strategy.  
  • Great article as usual Dan. Appreciate you explaining clearly what's actually going on here and how it plays into the future for MS & Windows. It actually seems like a smart move and I'm looking forward to seeing if it all plays out like they hope!
  • Excellent article. Thank you!
  • I don't agree entirely that they mangled the pitch.  It would have helped maybe to have the OEM devices discussed more prominently instead of being an afterthought. I think a lot of the confusion is coming from other bloggers hostile to Microsoft that are intentionally confusing the message that Microsoft communicated. Some purposely left out the facts that Windows 10 S is focused on the education market (at least to start) and the Surface Laptop is more for higher education students.  As you mentioned in the article, if I were to buy the Surface Laptop, I certainly would be upgrading to Pro, but not everyone will and eventually the majority of users will not need to use Pro.
  • There you go! This is it, 100%! 
  • Would have made more sense if they would have been ready to announce several new apps to the app store at the same time. Also, in the business world where Microsoft still has a strangle hold, there is no way anytime soon that Win32 exe's will be going away. In the business I'm in it takes forever just for the third party vendors to keep current with the Windows OS. For example, one of our most important programs we have running on Windows 7 and I'm in the process to see if it will even run on Windows 10. These are not applications that would ever reach the Windows Store. They are specialized programs meant for a certain type of business.
  • This is "Windows Store" last absolutely has to take off here.
  • Windows 10 S runs Win32 apps, they just need to be converted with Centennial. That's the big big difference here. Spotify is coming to the store, and so is Office, and not as UWP rewrites. They're still Win32.  And Build is coming up in a week. That's the appropriate place for additional Centennial and UWP announcements.
  • As a developer, I'd like to create a private Store (on my OneDrive, or in Azure) from where other users could install and update my Store apps. Also, I'd like to grant different access to various parts of my private Store to different groups of users.
  • There is already the ability for companies to create company stores, so I'm don't think what you are asking for is impossible.
  • As time goes by, I am becoming more perplexed about that whole Windows 10s and Surface Laptop announcement. I am no "Chromebook" fan and I still don't "get" them, as hard as I try. But unless Microsoft has a grand plan, Windows 10s will do nothing to gain foothold on Chromebooks in the schools. Absolutely nothing in my opinion. I hope I am wrong but as a Microsoft enthusiast, I've been burned too many times. 
  • You don't think Intune for Education is not huge? When I talk to IT they loved the idea of using it to manage Windows 10 S. Don't forget, Windows 10 S (and the upgrade to Pro) can run Win32 apps, something Chromebooks will never be able to do . There is also the Mixed Reality play, which will be much bigger in 2018 and going forward.
  • I think it is big. But I am close friends with two IT Directors in two separate school districts that barely batted an eye at this. They are firmly with Chomebooks and they do not see leaving them for some time to come no matter what benefits Intune and 10s bring.  I myself am both cautious and excited about the announcements. I just believe Windows 10s has its work cut out for it and it hinges on the Windows Store. I am not a pessimistic Microsoft fan but I've had so much taken away from me and I've had to adjust. I am always up for a revitalization of the Microsoft Ecosystem. 
  • Partly because you're making the two (10S and Surface Laptop) the same indistinguishable thing. They are not... 10S is as much, if not more for OEM's to run on lower end hardware. Hence the announcement that they will be selling sub $200 laptops with 10S.  The Surface Laptop is a new device that is showcasing 10S, but is built to run more than just that. That if anything, is where the confusion comes from.  Had they announced it at a Surface Event then MAYBE people wouldn't be as confused. 
  • Last time that I bought a MacBook Pro, the first thing I did was starting bootcamp and installing Windows 10. :)
    Now, MS has produced a beautiful Calssic Windows Laptop. This is a very good news for me as an Average Joe Consumer. 
    It is in beautiful colors and see that fabric on the keyboard ==> My wife will love it too!
  • The Surface Laptop seems fine *except* it seems to be virtually unusable for pen input. OK, I don't use pen input much, but I I'm waiting for a drawing tool such as Visio to support ink. I'm more skeptical to Windows 10 S... PowerPoint and Excel are ok, but I'm not a big fan of Word (being a "professional" writer within the sciences, there are other, much more productive tools -- but these are not UWP based). And I'm curious as to whether the upcoming UWP version of Office 365 will have full support for plug-ins (math editor in Word, Solver in Excel, etc.). "No problem, you can upgrade to Windows 10 Pro". OK -- I'm even worried about the development in Windows 10 Pro. Upgrades do weird things (e.g., Creators Update removed the AdBlock Edge plug-in...). What is worse, yesterday, I needed to associate a file extension to ASCII editor Notepad++ (the files I need to edit is for an unusual programming language, and I have a language file for syntax highlighting for Notepad++; I'm not aware of any UWP editor that supports this language). However, file extension to app association in the Settings menu of Windows Pro 10 only supports apps from the Windows store (presumably UWP apps). So this is unusable for me. Next, I right-click on the Windows menu to start the Control Panel. It's gone with the Creators Update! I finally found the Control Panel by searching for it. And was able to set a default editor to open files of the given file association.
    However, it is clear that Microsoft is squeezing out standard applications even in Windows 10 Pro. My problem with this is that people in the STEM fields (such as I) cannot base our activities on MS/UWP only apps. If MS continues on the road towards locking out existing applications from Windows 10 before viable alternatives exist, they will loose the STEM fields. (And I'm not talking about what MS thinks are viable alternatives -- I'm talking about what the STEM people themselves think.)
  • Again this site is backing up MSFT with the 10s, like a few months ago they were saying that Mobile wasn't dead. Here all MSFT decisions are correct
  • You just made a statement, but not an argument. At least I made an argument in my article to back up what I said.
  • I didn't make an argument because I think it's very clear: A 1000$ expensive laptop with "RT like" OS (I know you can install win32 store apps) where you have a very big app gap. But wait, you can upgrade free/$50 to full Windows, confusing the user/buyer. I mean again the same mistake of having Windows but you can't install Windows software like Windows RT and Windows Phone. I thought that they learned when they announced full Windows over ARM, and give to users more confident that when you use Windows is real Windows Sorry my English
  • Maybe Windows 10S is successful, maybe it fails, but it's not for me or anyone I know. My Surface Pro 3 and Asus T100 would be paper weights to me as almost nothing installed on either is available in the windows store. Maybe some day Microsoft will get developer support, but it hasn't happened yet. I like the idea of a secure OS relying on the store, but why would developers who make a fortune selling products on their own put their software in the windows store where Microsoft gets a cut? How about running the Unreal Engine? Adobe Creative Cloud and all programs? Chrome Web browser? Autodesk software? Blizzard games? Origin games? Steam? These are the reasons I use Windows, I spend more time on Android.
  • I use Windows too, but it's due to the platform's flexibility.  If I and others want a locked down experience, they'll go buy an iPad, and instantly have a plethora of available third party applications. This is just another ploy for Microsoft to grow out their own app store; they were very late to the concept, and now it just looks like they're flailing around and throwing stuff against the wall until something sticks. 
  • "I like the idea of a secure OS relying on the store, but why would developers who make a fortune selling products on their own put their software in the windows store where Microsoft gets a cut? "
    Stores give developers a lot of incentive too e.g. in-app purchases, streamlined updates to customers, and exposure. Right now, how do you find a Windows .exe app? You have to search for it, know it exists, etc. With a Store you give a customer the ability to browse for apps to install. That's very different. The issue regarding money is simple: once there is enough mass adoption, the tradeoff between costs is made. If you can sell 1,000 licenses for $5 or 10,000 licenses for $3, which deal is better for a software company? That's how the iOS store works, after all. Same with Android.
  • So weird how this article assumes most people commenting/in the world, were watching the edu conference, and their messaging. People are confused because by and large people are idiots. Case solved.
  • A lot of valid points. I can see how the community will be mad at your "positive spin"...
  • This article should be forwarded to all school boards and educators
  • IT departments at schools "get it". They understood the Intune sell and S. They also have direct support thru Microsoft as partners and will likely get their own private "sell" by Microsoft on the new products and features. Honestly, my least concern with the May 2 announcement is schools. It's consumers who aren't IT that are missing the point ;)
  • By choice...
  • I will say this, people love their steam, and their win32 power, even as developers. The windows store should be more democratic, more free, less like google play, and the apple app store. The sort of power apps that make windows great? Those are mostly win32 right. And what is the proposed benefit of taking them to the store - "security". Well what about people that don't need their hand held, what's the benefit to them? Less competitive distribution channels, a singular monolithic software authority, and a more limited software platform. I know, the uwp is essential to windows survival, and I want it to succeed- but mainly because of cross platform apps - shifting a win32 via centennial to the store, doesn't really make people want to code scaling hardware apps. If a system can run win32s - it doesn't strickly need millennial right? Doesn't need the store. What MS actually needs is people to write power software on the cross platform style of app. The sort of fully featured, quality, deep software that made windows big - on a hardware scaling platform. And as much as I think _some_ encouragement and herding might be warranted, I am not so sure developers and PC fans, appreciate the lockdown, or that it'll get the job done. What developers like is simplicity, and freedom. They want power and flexibility. If MS butts heads with the "vibe" of PC enthusiasts and developers too much, won't they potentially lose the one thing that makes Windows competitive against android and ios and chromeOS? Power?
    It's kinda like a culture clash. I mean you can talk about consumers needs all you like, but if you pin in development too much, won't people just want to code for another OS instead? If you put more people off, than you pull over, you dilute the entire strength you were trying to leverage in the first place.
    MS needs to re-think the store model. It suits android, it suits apple. It doesn't suit PC. Perhaps if they allowed other stores to run cross-platform apps, much like their store does, and opened up their capabilities as much as possible, they might create a system democractic and capitalistic enough to sell to "PC culture". And they might change the perception of UWAs from "mobile centric" not to 'Desktop centric" but "power that can run anywhere".
    I mean what they have could work, heck in the long term it probably will. But whats the risk it will squeeze the strength and soul out of their only moat - the platform with the power to do more, in an attempt to be too much like their marketplace peers. Their some amazing apps in the store, I believe in the platform. But I have reservations about this overall approach.
    I'd be keen to hear others thoughts, about alternative approaches MS could take, in order to preserve the power and freedom of win32s, and the benefits of an open marketplace, whilst trying to move the platform to one that is capable of hardware scaling better.
  • Arguably they didn't. Other media like Eurogamer are praising the Surface Laptop amazingly well. And understand and explain Windows 10 s with ease. Lots of consumers understand it perfectly well. To be honest the only one's moaning about something here are Android rabbits looking for a reason to moan about MS. First impressions by all the media and consumers is Surface Laptop is a big win.
  • This is a great solution for schools. My wife teaches K-12 and they went to Chromebooks for the students, but found they were too limiting for the staff so they all have Windows machines. Here you could give the students the "locked down" W10S and have more control of what gets put/runs on them and the faculty can have the same system with it unlocked to W10Pro for legacy programs the district probably still has in place. Of note, the switch to Chromebooks was after a disasterous switch to iPads.
  • I wonder how the alcantara is glued, and with what glue, to the "alumunium" and how that glue react to overheating?
  • I think it was a mistake for Microsoft to bring the Surface Laptop to this event. If the purpose of the event was to introduce Windows 10 S and devices to compete in the education marketplace. Microsoft should have made the event about all its vendor partners and the devices they have created to directly compete with Chromebook which is the most purchased device in K-12. I like many others lost this messaging in this event because all the coverage on Tech sites were about the Surface Laptop and the vendor devices were a very small comment buried in the articles. While I think the Surface Laptop is nice... I feel its a solution looking for a problem. Macbooks arent cheap yet college students buy them in droves. So price isnt really the driving factor. Microsoft already has devices that compete with the Macbook (The Surface Pro and Surface Book). I think a Surface Laptop reveal at a different event would have clarified the message that Microsoft I think was trying to deliver. They want to get Windows devices in kids hands because if they use them young they will likely use them when they are older.
  • If Microsft didn't have an in-house device for showing how Windows 10S works, it would have been bad. MS has learned that relying 100% on hardware partners is a good way for an OS launch to be bungled (Vista starter, etc). With the Surface Laptop, they can clearly say, "this is the Windows 10S expereince" to the press, even if the machine itself is overpowered for that use case.
  • I think the main point of the article was conflating the push to education with W10S and the Surface Laptop was a small misstep because everyone suddenly goes "OMG a $1000 school computer?!" The separate threads are both great, W10S is a smart move in the education market, and the Surface Laptop is a nice premium ultrabook (traditional sense) at a nice premium price which can easily be unlocked from W10S, if you need to.
  • Before the gamers cry foul, ask yourself, when has a traditional ultrabook ever been a gamer choice... And no, Razors are not traditional ultrabooks.
  • "if Microsoft's plan goes accordingly, you too will be able to slowly give up non-Store apps." I decided to check my one-year-old Windows 10 PC. Turns out I have only three software programs installed that aren't from the Store: Adobe Acrobat Pro (which, honestly, could easily be replaced with Edge as a PDF reader or Drawboard as a markup tool), and then two statistical software programs (that are, admittedly, unlikely to ever come to the Store). Compared to my Windows 8 or Windows 7 PC, where I used to have dozens upon dozens of .exe programs installed, and it seems that .exe is, indeed, a dying breed. I love how easy it is to install or uninstall Store apps.
  • I'm sorry, but people are just really dumb... 😖
  • By choice. 
  • They really should be selling the Surface laptop for 950$ because if you throw in the upgrade it'll be 999$. Not sure why you would buy a premium computer without the full features of the OS. I understand it's free for the first year, but serious buyers I would think would see other premium laptops from other OEMs with the full features of installing 32-bit app for the same price.
  • or charge $999 now, then lower the price to $949 after December 1st.
  • And why do you think that people on a campus would buy this? They use macs now, probably because they use iPhones. All those people totally love their iphones and macs. They will never buy a windows device when there is no real improvement. Microsoft doesn't seem to learn that the movement from adaption flows from mobile to any other product or service, and not the other way around! Daniel is too positive without a valid reason. I do not expect an influx of apps at all. And if, they will be cheap bridges.
  • Lol! Wrong as f*ck. 
  • That simply isn't true.  I personally know several people who have switched from Apple laptops to Microsoft Surfaces and Surface Books.  Admittedly, many of those same people also booted Windows on their Macs. Hah.  But people are noticing.  Apply laptops became cool and everyone had to have them.  This happened in the corporate world, too.  I've worked with an entire department of developers that opted for Macs because they could.  But why?  In the end, they still did most of their work in Windows.  They either installed Windows or they downloaded Windows VMs that they could use. Daniel's perceived positivity is informed by his experience.  Just like yours. Just like mine.  While people may not abandon an ecosystem entirely, they will leave products if they perceive something else is better, more premium, or more exclusive. If Microsoft can make them do that for just one piece of hardware, then they've accomplished a major goal.  Getting their foot in the door.  After that, it becomes a matter of impressing upon the user how much more valuable/usable their experience might be.  To be clear, Microsoft isn't competing directly with Apple here.  They are outlining their vision for how their software/ hardware/ ecosystem should look and work.  It is natural that they compete with everyone.  But I think they are willing to take a hit, if all they do is make people take a second look.  Microsoft now isn't the same as Microsoft of the 90s.
  • Fully agree.  I agree with a few of the writers who ponder that if MS gives up on mobile, it's their eventual doom.  In the desktop world, the enterprise market drove everything.  Today, the mobile world is driving enterprise.   MS should not be late to this and they are.  Why not make touch landline phones that integrate/interact with Windows 7&10?  Then Wphone becomes more attractive to enterprise.  that's just one idea.  There's so much more but MS has no idea or clue what to do except the Surface.  I'm guessing it's going to fail.   And I agree, if it's not an improvement why would anyone go through the hassle or relearning a platform?  Usually a normal user who doesn't do partitioning, imaging, cloning, registry edits, and so on will only care about two it easy and does it work!
  • But explain then why as of march 2017 Apple only had a 6% market share in PCs if everyone has a Macbook as you say to go with their Iphone??!!
  • My sister started grad school in chemical engineering and got a new windows PC rather than upgrade her mac because the software she needed wasn't available on Mac. She probablh still uses her Mac for personal stuff, but in many disciplines, Windows is necessary. never say "never"
  • It's basically an extremely low cost Surface Pro.
  • Daniel, MS didn't mangle anything. This is stypical internet horse sh*t... If it's MS it's not clear. It has to be delivered a certain way for people to agree, not for them to understand. Any and all things MS are debate topics. You can explain till you're blue in the face (or type till you're blue in the fingers?) and people will still claim mixed messages. 
  • I agree. They could have been clearer. But, in the end and for now, it won't ultimately matter. People are used to Microsoft mucking up messaging. I'll probably pick one of these up. I might try running pure UWP for a few months and upgrade if it becomes a hassle.  With the changes they made to the Remote Desktop App (for the worse IMO), it is unlikely I'll stay "S" for long.  Still, Microsoft is putting products out there. They are pushing their software ecosystem. This is all progress.  As many if not most on this forum though, I still want to see what comes for the mobile (phone) category where their presence has dwindled and stagnated as is all but missing.
  • I think this could have been the opportunity for Microsoft to announce a Surface Mini for Students with Windows S instead a Laptop.
  • Tito, creativity as you've expressed is key imo.  Or at the very least, make it an option.
  • did I hear UWP cross platform?
    this would be amazingly awesome!!
  • Xamarin is cross platform. UWP itself cannot be ported to other platforms because it tightly depends on DirectX.
  • One huge block as a developer for selling through the app store is that MS charges you 30% cut for the privilege.
  • Actually, this developer fee can be avoided. Microsoft allows developers to use other payment methods (such as the ones currently in use by Netflix, Spotify and others). Microsoft does NOT take a 30% cut from this. Let's compare that with iOS for example. Even if the payment method is not the App Store payment method, Apple requires you to still pay the developer fee. I would give you the information on Android, but at the moment I cannot recall which policy was chosen by Google. I assume it's the former method used by Microsoft.
  • Consider that 30% cost versus the cost of running your own store, credit card processing, staffing website maintenance, and it probably works out to be in favor of the store for low-cost apps (<10$)
  • How is printing handled? I don't know how many people print now adays. We do. We have an older Canon Network printer. Requires I install drivers and also an app for scanning.
    We have a boy who is 9 and we are printing and copying for his school.
  • hey daniel nice read. i can see why else they would want to introduce it at this education event: im sure they wouldnt want to have a 15-20 minute event just talking about the surface laptop, and the build event is not hardware-related so it wouldnt make sense to announce it there. after reading your article i can see why it was an odd transition, but it still "falls" within education even if it is higher level education. question because i cant remember: did the education event showcase the process from going to windows 10 s to windows 10 pro? i was watching the event but forgot. if it did showcase someone actually doing the transition from starting windows 10 s, to trying to download a windows 32 app, then getting the pop-up saying unlock pro, then actually unlocking pro to use the app wouldve been good.
  • Even college students don't want a $1K laptop with only 4GB of RAM and 128GB SSD. The color versions have 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD, but cost $1300 and are only available in the US. Microsoft pitches the Surface Laptop as "Performance made personal". I say it's "Performance at $1300".
  • They still need to fix the store, all their stores are very user unfriendly.
  • It's not a surprise. Product after product, time and time again, year after year Microsoft messes up promoting. It's a wonder they are even still in business.
  • "While many PC users install Steam, "hack" their registry, or modify the shell with goofy Windows 7 Start Menus, those are the ten percenters."
    Sorry but your theory falls apart a little in assuming a few things: 1) That users actually want to use Edge as their browser which all statistics point to the fact that they don't 2) These companies who make the few key Win32 apps that everyone seems to use (Chrome, iTunes, Steam) will ever be on the Windows Store.  And we are not talking insignificant user bases either.  These are huge user shares.  Yes you could check the switch and make it full Windows 10 Pro at least until the end of the year.  And then what?  When the customer buys their $250 Best Buy special laptop which has Windows 10 S and the store clerk says "Its windows 10 it should work like normal" and then the user gets home and MS wants them to pay $50 to let them install iTunes or Chrome?  You think that's not going to blow up in their face? Windows 10 S should have been a limited special OS available to the education market directly and be done with it. But we will see what happens.  MS will certainly be collecting a lot of telemetries but I just don't see it any more different than Windows 8.1 with Bing
  • I'm sorry, I don't agree with some of the points made in this article. First of all, it is debatable of the Windows Store has improved between 2012 and now with apps coming and going all the time. Yes, more high-profile apps have been added to the Store, but are barely on the same level of features as on other mobile platforms or their win32 equivalent. Though most importantly, the one point I disagree with most is that Windows 10 S makes sense for college kids. I'm sorry, but that's just not true. Even for business-based studies where most of the work is textual and can be handled with Office through the Store, these "college kids" use research-specific tools, such as Mendeley and others.
    Not to mention technical studies. These studies rely highly on tools currently not available in the Store. Even worse, there are no viable alternatives. Sure, you could argue to just get Windows 10 Pro, but that would be against the statement that Windows 10 S is for "college kids" or as they're more commonly called: students. Microsoft is targeting a very small group of students here and I'm not saying it's a bad thing. In fact, I'm literally hovering my mouse above the buy button right now. All I'd like to do here is to provide people reading the comments with some perspective on this article from a student's perspective as I feel the article is built on presumptions that aren't always accurate nor valid. That being said, the coverage on the Surface Laptop from Windows Central has been nothing less than phenomenal, thanks guys!
  • Good article, Dan. I'm glad I'm not the only one to realize this. Surface Laptop is not really meant to be a Chromebook competitor. While it is the "hero" device for Windows 10S, the market for this hardware is really Surface fans who want a more traditional form-factor (MJF?) and I would bet that MS expects most Surface Laptop users to use the free upgrade to 10 Pro, while the low-cost devices are the actual Chromebook competitors.
  • Some companies are great at marketing. Take Apple for instance. Then there is Microsoft. Unfortunately, not so good.
  • I think you understated the importance of iTunes/iCloud win32 apps Dan. Those applications are so important to college kids. I am also just not a believer that this Windows S play will be effective, obviously I am no business strategist, it's just my gut feeling. I also feel like it's important to note here that I predicted the Nintendo Switch to flop 😀 Could not have been more wrong about that one!!!
  • Folks lets face it the Surface laptop is not the best laptop in the market place but it is a premium well made laptop that a lot of folks world wide are going to buy but I predict that at least 80% of professional people who buy a Surface laptop are going  to update it to full Windows 10 Pro so that they can put whatever software they want on it. A parent buys a Surface laptop for their High school or College child will find out most of them will upgrade to full Windows 10. Since Non Computer savvy folks may not bother to change their Surface laptop OS. If I were Microsoft I would make a video and put it on you tube to show them how to upgrade to Windows 10 pro. The Surface laptop was a device a lot Windows users wanted badly. I think Microsoft gave Windows users a great device for their wait but it's sad it has no USB C port or 4G LTE 
  • Besides the restriced OS, there's many other things wrong with the Surface Laptop. For that price, OEMs like Dell have better offerings like the DELL XPS 13 with loads more ports, future-proof with Thunderbolt 3 USB Type C, and expandable storage with a full SD card slot. Even the Surface Pro 4 offers loads more for the same price. That said, I'm actually liking their push for devs to bring more Desktop class apps to the Windows Store via the Desktop Bridge. I'd prefer to have many of my Win32 applications coming from the Store instead, including: Notepad++ GIMP 1Password FreeFileSync etc. However, I think the APIs UWP offers at the moment are too limited at the moment to replace system-enhancing software I use very often, including: AutoSizer Hide IP Easy Radial Menu K-Lite Mega Codec Pack AutoHotkey Logitech Options TextAloud WindowSpace Peerblock etc. On top of that, can't run UWP apps with admin privileges, so, some of my applications like FreeFileSync would have a hard time accessing files from system directors I want to sync from.
  • And at some point (maybe later this year) Windows 10 S will run on ARM too.  That might open up a whole raft of new form factor devices -- perhaps those that Satya was talking about in a recent interview.  Also while W10 on Arm will involve some emulation, there's lot that already runs natively on ARM.  For example all of the W10 core that runs on WinPhones today.  The big issue with W10 on ARM resides with the API's and COM.  Much of UWP apps use the winrt API, and that was implemebted natively for ARM for Windows RT.  The winrt API has been massively updated since it was first introduced back in the W8 days.  Many desktop LOB apps have been written in C# managed code.  These compile to an "IL" language which is executed by a JIT (Just In Time) interpreter.  If MS has got a JIT interpreter that runs natively on ARM (I'd be surprised if they didn't), then all that managed code will run natively on ARM without emulation. Anyhow, we shall see -- maybe as soon as later this month in Shaghai.
  • Actually, this is going to fail because of the way it is set up. If someone wants Win 10 Pro (instead of Home) then the $50 upgrade fee is a no-brainer. For any laptop, 2in1, convertible, etc that would normally come with Win 10 Home is $99. Plus, even the bottom end device listed on release day is 4 GB RAM, 64 GB eMMC storage for $189. At $239 with Win 10 Pro this is a steel.
  • So, now, after all this time, Microsoft is going to focus on desktop applications with UWP?  How is it that they did not have the vision to do that from day one?   Also, after getting burned by adopting WPF only to see it mothballed, it's going to be a long time before I feel comfortable recommending that my company spend the millions of dollars it would require to move from the MFC+WPF conglommeration we have now to UWP.  Call me when PhotoShop and Office have converted to UWP and we'll talk.